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kidinvisible
10-25-2012, 03:26 PM
Chaos are underpowered, why?
Ok so three scenarios of your first few minutes playing as chaos, and the two ways each of them will go.

Scenario one
You start mining, and build 3 more miners are the same time
From here your enemy does of two things
Sends swordsmen
If your enemy sends swords men, and has a plan to hold the centre tower and use swords men to stop your economy and use archers to slowly kill them. Well in every scenario you've lost because Chaos is too weak at the start of the game, and anything than can save you is too expensive and you would need a few of.
Carries on mining
Yay, you can win if you last more than 5 Minutes because you can get enough of an army to smash through them!

Scenario two
You Build 3 Crawlers and attempt to attack the enemy.
From here your enemy does of two things
Sends swordmen
Sends swordsmen after them and kills them eventually ultimately gaining the winning chance
Use archers/Castle defence
And you're crawlers are dead or 1-2 are because range kills them in 1-2 hits and they can't escape quick enough. If these archers follow you to your castle, you're trapped and loose genuinely enough

Scenario three
You and your enemy have a stalemate in offence (But they're economy is higher due to Chaos being before 3-4 minutes because of economy)
Miners create Walls
I hate walls... Because of Order's higher range damage to Chaos they can pretty much camp behind two walls with range and win eventually.
Pressure
Your enemy will just keep pressure on you till they can get enough troops to win.

Good points to Chaos
Juggerknights
Juggerknights in my opinion are what makes Chaos even usable, they can beat speartons out numbered (with the technology charge)
Crawlers
Once in large enough numbers they can tear apart Order because of the technology Pack mentality (Effect: For each crawler you have your damage is increased - Stops after 5)
Predatory edge (Effect: Massive run speed increase for all Crawlers)


Reason why Chaos isn't as fun as order
Medusa (Order equivalent to Magikill)
Only helpful if it's a large battle and the enemy has giants or you're attacking they're statue (stone spell)
Giants
A melee giant just simply isn't good enough as Chaos lacks range damage as it is, the least the giant could do is have a larger area attack and poison.
Dreads (Order equivalent to archer)
Can be good for large fights because of poison (Which you have to buy the technology to use poison which cost 10 mana per target), but weak in range damage.
Bombers (Equivalent to Shadowrath/assassin)
Only really useful in large battles, where you may use 2-5 and create them while the battle is going on. Other than that I've used them in fights where I thought there area damage would do a decent amount of damage to 20 odd Order troops, and it had no noticeable affect.
Crawlers (Order equivalent to swordsmen) are too low damage/speed/health/defence (until further on in the game when you buy technology and have a large amount them do they become better than swordsmen)
Turret - Chaos's Miners wall
Turret is Order's miners ability. It's useless, low health and does next to no damage.
Order's ability to have heal
Order has Meric's which heal. Chaos have a mage which has a multi attack in comparison, Chaos is underpowered definitely.

Chaos is extremely offence based
especially more towards large battles, where as Order have very good balance.

My Suggestions
Poison
Make poison do more damage, or do damage more often - And make dreads automatically have poison with no mana cost and make
Giants
Either swap the giant with Order so Chaos gets a fairly decent range damage troop or make the body that the Chaos giant hits with decayed so that it poisons.
Walls
With Order having better archers and basic troops these walls just make life even harder - Make walls cost 800-1000 Gold, within 5 minutes of the game they increase the difficulty that Chaos has against a harassing Order player.



I'm not finished but please post feed back, I spent a lot of time on this because as this game gets older Chaos troops weaknesses are becoming more apparent.

TheFighterz
10-25-2012, 03:34 PM
I don't have chaos, but the 1 chaos person I fought against flat-out steam-rolled me.

What (I think) he did:

1. Create Juggerknight immideatly.
2. Take middle.
3. Tower Spawn. Now I had to worry about a Juggerknight (Equivilent of 2 speartons) charging at me constantly.
4. Stockpile on crawlers and bombers.
5. Make 2 more Knights.
6. Attack.

This ended the game before I even had the chance to so much as to build a 2nd tower archer.

___________

Anyways, I do believe that Chaos is not underpowered, but just too based off close-range. Also, another good point is Eclipse, who moves, is trained and does more damage than Albowtross, and chaos has constant heal, which aids large groups of crawlers harassing economy.

kidinvisible
10-25-2012, 03:49 PM
1) You can't create a Juggerknight Immediately
2) Juggerknight's aren't equal too 2 speartons without charge
3) Tower spawn costs money
4) Archers most likely would of harassed (or should of) Juggerknight by the time his got the middle.
5) Eclipse is so expensive (I believe more expensive than Albowtross) - 400 Gold - 150mana
6) Constant heal doesn't help till further in the game

Tecness2
10-25-2012, 04:01 PM
I'm sorry, but you're wrong, about a lot of things :D
Try building two crawlers, and two miners. Set the first one to gold, and second one to mine. By 1:15, you SHOULD have a Dark Knight out, and then proceed to nom them. You want a counter to walls? 2 Skeleton mages with several deads behind them. Make the deads JUST in-range of the walls while the skeletons are infront of them, killing any and all archers that appear. Bombers in large number, are great against...well large numbers. You see an army of swordwraths being created? Mass bombers. Kill them all within seconds! (Or get 3-4 skeleton mages and kill them with hellfists)
Medusa is useless against giants. She's great if the enemy has an annoying magikill, or a single monk, or a single ninja. She turns shit into stone.
The Giant DOES have an AOE attack. It affects 3 units at once.
The poison is overpowered as hell as it is.

As I said on another thread.

Then you're not playing chaos right. I've played about 62 games of JUST chaos. I think, I've lost like...3? IF that much.

kidinvisible
10-25-2012, 04:36 PM
And the first two Crawlers do what? Harass?
Dead babies?
I knew Giant have a AOE attack my post meant to say larger AOE attack.
Hmm thanks for your input I'll try some games and see what I think.

kidinvisible
10-25-2012, 04:50 PM
I followed your two crawler, two miner strategy and got absoloutley owned by archers.

Tecness2
10-25-2012, 05:33 PM
I followed your two crawler, two miner strategy and got absoloutley owned by archers.
You were attacking with them I guess. You do nothing with them. You defend with them if you need to, until you get a dark knight.

kidinvisible
10-25-2012, 05:35 PM
No an archer attacked me, 50% of my games I end up with a stalemate in the middle but they end up making 20 archers and walls.
And I have no Idea how to take down the walls.

Tecness2
10-25-2012, 06:23 PM
So what happened? You built 2 miners and 2 crawlers. And was attacked by a single archer? Crawlers are slightly faster than archers and could chase him back to his side of the field.

DragonFrost
10-25-2012, 08:24 PM
It all depends on your and your opponents skill. Once, i got OP DOMINATED AND DIED SO FAST(i'm order)(he sent a bunch of juggerknights and killed my statue before i had any troops (that weren't dead)), another time, i sent one albowtross with fire arrow upgrade (I'm order again) killed this dimwit with a mass of crawlers and some juggerknights.. he had no ranged units, or castle archer, by the time i killed all his troops, he FINALLY bought castle archer and some eclipsors.. By then i had 1 giant and 5 albowtross... Needless to say, I won.

Tecness2
10-25-2012, 09:05 PM
It all depends on your and your opponents skill. Once, i got OP DOMINATED AND DIED SO FAST(i'm order)(he sent a bunch of juggerknights and killed my statue before i had any troops (that weren't dead)), another time, i sent one albowtross with fire arrow upgrade (I'm order again) killed this dimwit with a mass of crawlers and some juggerknights.. he had no ranged units, or castle archer, by the time i killed all his troops, he FINALLY bought castle archer and some eclipsors.. By then i had 1 giant and 5 albowtross... Needless to say, I won.
YOU'RE MISSING A DAMN CLOSING BRACKET! LEARN TO TYPE NOOB.
I mean, what this guy said. It's not so much on which units you get, it's how you use them.
For example, what do you think would win in a fight? 1 swordwrath + 1 archidon or 1 archidon?
You're going to say the swordwrath, right? Well for me, I win with just a single archer. I stutter step the swordwrath, weakening it and stuff, eventually it dies. Then I use a single miner as a meat-shield to block A SINGLE arrow from my opponent's archer, and BAM. Both of his units died, with minimal damage to mine, then I proceed to kick his ass.

RUMMAKER
10-26-2012, 12:43 AM
I'd just keep the sword wrath next to my archer and ur stutter stepping does nothing.
That being said, wtf walls cost 800-1000 I hope ur trolling.
Not to mention juggler knight kills spear ton with tech and without tech due to passive heal.
Also eclipse is way cheaper then an albowtross.
And if u run ur crawlers past the orders defenses u get center and they can't attack.

300noob
10-26-2012, 02:58 AM
Ya think chaos is under powered? ya dead wrong man.
i've only managed to beat 2-3 chaos players...so far
wall cost 800-1000 gold? ya seriously ? some knights can take care of that, heck, even the dead can. what's the point of building defensive system when they're outraged expensive?
the chaos is NOT underpowered, they're actually overpowered for us order players, well except experienced players.
the poison is not enough? dude, the poison can take down a giant if ya do it right with no meric or self cure ability.
skeleton mage's attack can by pass the order wall....bombers can easily defeat sword and archer. crawler in large number can take down 3 giants and many speartons....and ya say that is underpowered.
side note: sorry for my grammar....
=>Learn to master ya troop to be good in battle.

Tecness2
10-26-2012, 05:34 AM
I'd just keep the sword wrath next to my archer and ur stutter stepping does nothing.
That being said, wtf walls cost 800-1000 I hope ur trolling.
Not to mention juggler knight kills spear ton with tech and without tech due to passive heal.
Also eclipse is way cheaper then an albowtross.
And if u run ur crawlers past the orders defenses u get center and they can't attack.
That's what the all say, until I do it, and they get mad.
Walls cost 200 gold to make and 100 gold to research.
2 Walls = A total of 500 gold spent.
In a 1 on 1 fight, Dark Knights will kill a Spearton with around 5% of his health left. So little, that a single swordwrath could kill him with 1(MAYBE 2) hit(s).
Eclipse are also way weaker than flying crossbowmen, and can't be upgraded like they can.

300noob
10-26-2012, 06:11 AM
That's what the all say, until I do it, and they get mad.
Walls cost 200 gold to make and 100 gold to research.
2 Walls = A total of 500 gold spent.
In a 1 on 1 fight, Dark Knights will kill a Spearton with around 5% of his health left. So little, that a single swordwrath could kill him with 1(MAYBE 2) hit(s).
Eclipse are also way weaker than flying crossbowmen, and can't be upgraded like they can.
well yes, the flying crossbow men created to dominate the sky. much more expensive and longer train but they really can dominate the sky.

RUMMAKER
10-26-2012, 12:50 PM
The op suggested that walls cost a thousand I know how much they cost. And op ur poison suggestion is just stupid. Poison is very good as it is. Also if I can build a swordwrath then chaos can send a crawler crawler can kill swordwrath while he tries to finishe off the juggler knight not to mention chaos can just retreat his knight and u lose a spear ton while he loses noyhing. Albowtross does dominate the sky but they are so expensive if u try and get them against chaos u get overrun cuz ur ground troops will be very weak.

Dracus94
10-27-2012, 09:34 AM
at the op:
I disagree with almost everything you said. sorry.

TheFighterz
10-28-2012, 10:32 PM
I might just agree with you. 1 tower spawn spearton took out 1/4 of a juggerknights health AND 3 crawlers by itself. I understand crawlers function in packs, but they need to be able to take at least 3 hits.

Still, it always goes down to the enemies skill. The first guy steam-rolled me. The second got domininated. (Still lost via lag)

300noob
10-29-2012, 02:32 AM
I might just agree with you. 1 tower spawn spearton took out 1/4 of a juggerknights health AND 3 crawlers by itself. I understand crawlers function in packs, but they need to be able to take at least 3 hits.

Still, it always goes down to the enemies skill. The first guy steam-rolled me. The second got domininated. (Still lost via lag)
they already took more than 3 hits.

TheFighterz
10-29-2012, 11:34 AM
they already took more than 3 hits.

My tower spawn killed them in 2. Might be a glitch.

300noob
10-30-2012, 05:41 AM
My tower spawn killed them in 2. Might be a glitch.

yes it is... my albowtross with blazing bolt upgrade still take somewhere 3-4 hit to kill.

300noob
10-30-2012, 05:45 AM
i just know another thing, chaos ginats can attack air.

Tecness2
10-30-2012, 06:32 AM
i just know another thing, chaos ginats can attack air.
That's supposed to be.

kidinvisible
10-30-2012, 12:52 PM
All I'm saying is that, if as a chaos player I don't win the round quickly. Order tends to use giants, and slowly grow until they've outgrown me.
And once they've got something big that does range, I found it hard to do much damage to they're economy. What with walls, a giant that stuns you etc..
I also don't believe Order should be allowed to cure poison by garrisoning.
Tec what I've read on other threads is that you seem to beat everyone by a large amount of skill/knowledge - But what I'm saying is that when you directly fight mono ah mono in a siege, chaos generally get torn apart (granted if you're attacking a castle you're at a disadvantage with castle archers)

Tecness2
10-30-2012, 03:17 PM
All I'm saying is that, if as a chaos player I don't win the round quickly. Order tends to use giants, and slowly grow until they've outgrown me.
And once they've got something big that does range, I found it hard to do much damage to they're economy. What with walls, a giant that stuns you etc..
I also don't believe Order should be allowed to cure poison by garrisoning.
Tec what I've read on other threads is that you seem to beat everyone by a large amount of skill/knowledge - But what I'm saying is that when you directly fight mono ah mono in a siege, chaos generally get torn apart (granted if you're attacking a castle you're at a disadvantage with castle archers)
I disagree. The rule of playing against me as chaos, is if you don't beat me in the first 2ish minutes. You've already lost. With the exception of CrazyJay.....

300noob
10-31-2012, 06:34 AM
i think instead of saying chaos is underpowered, fix the bug where i keep typing ginats instead of giants.

Ninjastripy
10-31-2012, 09:53 AM
Ginats are very deadly. A Ginat can kill 6 Archdions with one gignatic hit! Even the Speartno has trouble dealing with Ginats.

300noob
11-01-2012, 07:10 AM
Ginats are very deadly. A Ginat can kill 6 Archdions with one gignatic hit! Even the Speartno has trouble dealing with Ginats.

rofl, ya using ginats....:D

caesiumm
11-02-2012, 09:30 AM
Chaos are underpowered, why?
Ok so three scenarios of your first few minutes playing as chaos, and the two ways each of them will go.

Scenario one
You start mining, and build 3 more miners are the same time
From here your enemy does of two things
Sends swordsmen
If your enemy sends swords men, and has a plan to hold the centre tower and use swords men to stop your economy and use archers to slowly kill them. Well in every scenario you've lost because Chaos is too weak at the start of the game, and anything than can save you is too expensive and you would need a few of.
Carries on mining
Yay, you can win if you last more than 5 Minutes because you can get enough of an army to smash through them!

Scenario two
You Build 3 Crawlers and attempt to attack the enemy.
From here your enemy does of two things
Sends swordmen
Sends swordsmen after them and kills them eventually ultimately gaining the winning chance
Use archers/Castle defence
And you're crawlers are dead or 1-2 are because range kills them in 1-2 hits and they can't escape quick enough. If these archers follow you to your castle, you're trapped and loose genuinely enough

Scenario three
You and your enemy have a stalemate in offence (But they're economy is higher due to Chaos being before 3-4 minutes because of economy)
Miners create Walls
I hate walls... Because of Order's higher range damage to Chaos they can pretty much camp behind two walls with range and win eventually.
Pressure
Your enemy will just keep pressure on you till they can get enough troops to win.

Good points to Chaos
Juggerknights
Juggerknights in my opinion are what makes Chaos even usable, they can beat speartons out numbered (with the technology charge)
Crawlers
Once in large enough numbers they can tear apart Order because of the technology Pack mentality (Effect: For each crawler you have your damage is increased - Stops after 5)
Predatory edge (Effect: Massive run speed increase for all Crawlers)


Reason why Chaos isn't as fun as order
Medusa (Order equivalent to Magikill)
Only helpful if it's a large battle and the enemy has giants or you're attacking they're statue (stone spell)
Giants
A melee giant just simply isn't good enough as Chaos lacks range damage as it is, the least the giant could do is have a larger area attack and poison.
Dreads (Order equivalent to archer)
Can be good for large fights because of poison (Which you have to buy the technology to use poison which cost 10 mana per target), but weak in range damage.
Bombers (Equivalent to Shadowrath/assassin)
Only really useful in large battles, where you may use 2-5 and create them while the battle is going on. Other than that I've used them in fights where I thought there area damage would do a decent amount of damage to 20 odd Order troops, and it had no noticeable affect.
Crawlers (Order equivalent to swordsmen) are too low damage/speed/health/defence (until further on in the game when you buy technology and have a large amount them do they become better than swordsmen)
Turret - Chaos's Miners wall
Turret is Order's miners ability. It's useless, low health and does next to no damage.
Order's ability to have heal
Order has Meric's which heal. Chaos have a mage which has a multi attack in comparison, Chaos is underpowered definitely.

Chaos is extremely offence based
especially more towards large battles, where as Order have very good balance.

My Suggestions
Poison
Make poison do more damage, or do damage more often - And make dreads automatically have poison with no mana cost and make
Giants
Either swap the giant with Order so Chaos gets a fairly decent range damage troop or make the body that the Chaos giant hits with decayed so that it poisons.
Walls
With Order having better archers and basic troops these walls just make life even harder - Make walls cost 800-1000 Gold, within 5 minutes of the game they increase the difficulty that Chaos has against a harassing Order player.



I'm not finished but please post feed back, I spent a lot of time on this because as this game gets older Chaos troops weaknesses are becoming more apparent.


i totally agree with you man

300noob
11-03-2012, 08:04 AM
i totally agree with you man

"epic facepalm"
ok, ya didn't consider anything.

Triss
12-21-2012, 09:33 AM
Dude, chaos ability is domination. If you're a passive type player, better get the hell out of here.
On the other hand, Order ability is defend/counter. That's why I use order (Counter-type Player)

uberman
12-21-2012, 12:35 PM
Having both chaos and order accounts, it seems to me the biggest advantage chaos player often has is that a lot of players dont know the strengths, strategies and weakness of chaos.
Unfortunatly, the lack of a players experience makes him think that he's against a much stronger set of units than he actually is, and puts his defeat down to chaos being overpowered as often order players often only see the strengths of the chaos units.

In terms of units, not having a meric/healer really can be a disadvantage in a big fight. Passive is great for the skirmish stage, but weaker than healing for the big battles.
Not having range attacks on the giant makes them far weaker than the order giant in many situations.
having turrets not walls is a serious disadvantage.
Poison is only very useful when he (be it stupidly or via KIA) doesnt have a meric to cure it.
dead do very poor damage (I think, may be wrong) and are too slow to be useful in the skirmish stage of play, only in the fairly static big battles are they really much use.
Allbows seem much better than wings all things considered.

So, it is my opinion that in several ways chaos is a lot weaker than many order players understand.

And, with respect, Tec being able to own with chaos speaks more of his skill then the power of chaos.
Any high skilled player would probably own with anything half decent against a moderate player with better units.

Tecness2
12-21-2012, 12:40 PM
And, with respect, Tec being able to own with chaos speaks more of his skill then the power of chaos.
Any high skilled player would probably own with anything half decent against a moderate player with better units.
Respect!
Well, since I've taken a considerable break from actually playing this game a lot, I haven't been doing very well with chaos.

uberman
12-21-2012, 03:02 PM
want respect i am the best chaos player in the game :D

Shh! dont give away any secret techiques to the order crowd, PM me your hot tips chaos guide instead!
:)

Oh, and you dont need to ask for respect, you earned it with your ranking!

uberman
12-21-2012, 03:15 PM
BTW, on the topic of chaos being underpowered, I just played a game against a lower ranked player, he was order I was chaos.
He starteed telling me in chat that it's lame to pay money for better units - I told him I like to support the game designers, so we (players) get games, everybody needs to earn something right?
He went and won the game, using a whole load of ninja mainly, plus a few merics and quite a few spears - nothing too fancy.

Fair play.

But then he got back onto my case that chaos was overpowered.
WTF? if chaos is overpowered, how would a lower rank order player beat a higher rank chaos player?

I think its fair to say they are pretty balanced, and if anything the order is better on several points.

Isnt it fair to say they should be as well balanced as possible, but if anything the pay-to-play should be stronger NOT weaker?
I dont say pay to play should own free to play, and be way better, but it should be at least as good!

I have two accounts, one I play order, the other chaos, and my rating is very very similar in both - which suggests chaos is not over powered, as some seem to think.

/rant off

Sorry if I am ranting, but I got two different players giving me grief in chat today, and it's a f'king game we play for fun :)

uberman
12-22-2012, 03:21 AM
This is a new idea (new to me anyway, others may have suggested it) not a continuation of the previous issue so I hope I am not gonna upset anyone with a string of posts - if so, gimme a warning, its my first offence :)

I suggest, to balance the game in many ways, why not remove the range attack from order giants? They could be faster but weaker attacks for example, or be slightly different in other ways such as the duration of stun or number of targets hit or stunned etc etc

This would make them more ballanced in several ways;
- vs chaos giants. As it is they own due to range. They get some free hits as the chaos giant closes, and if the chaos tries to flee they get 2/3? hits as he lumbers away - compare this to an order giant fleeing from a chaos giant.
- vs non-gaints. A skilled player can take on a chaos giant with a single spearton or archer by out manouvrering it - i.e. skilled play. But regardless of how skilled a player os against an order giant, the range attack removes the skill element - you can hit and run, but even if your out of range by the time the rock reaches you, it still stuns and damages you.
- vs air units. Both chaos and order giants would be similarly vulnerable. As it is, chaos is kited to death with ease while order can hit and kill air units from range.

I dont claim to know the whole story, its just a suggestion thrown unto the think tank.
I think it will help avoid giant spamming to a degree too, where as giving range to chaos giants may add to the chaos giant spamming.

MiamiBigAL
12-22-2012, 03:44 AM
BTW, on the topic of chaos being underpowered, I just played a game against a lower ranked player, he was order I was chaos.
He starteed telling me in chat that it's lame to pay money for better units - I told him I like to support the game designers, so we (players) get games, everybody needs to earn something right?
He went and won the game, using a whole load of ninja mainly, plus a few merics and quite a few spears - nothing too fancy.

Fair play.

But then he got back onto my case that chaos was overpowered.
WTF? if chaos is overpowered, how would a lower rank order player beat a higher rank chaos player?

I think its fair to say they are pretty balanced, and if anything the order is better on several points.

Isnt it fair to say they should be as well balanced as possible, but if anything the pay-to-play should be stronger NOT weaker?
I dont say pay to play should own free to play, and be way better, but it should be at least as good!

I have two accounts, one I play order, the other chaos, and my rating is very very similar in both - which suggests chaos is not over powered, as some seem to think.

/rant off

Sorry if I am ranting, but I got two different players giving me grief in chat today, and it's a f'king game we play for fun :)

Having an order/chaos account at a similar rating does not prove anything. The likelihood is that you are not using each race optimally.

Chaos is overpowered by quite a bit. If you ask any high level player (i.e. top 10), who have tested multiple combinations of tactics and have actually analysed at each stage of a battle the chaos vs order battle mechanics, they will all say the same thing, that chaos is overpowered. Just look at the detailed analysis and comment on that if you want to change people's minds.

Azxc
12-22-2012, 04:04 AM
That is my comments:

Turrets are really gay compare with walls so make it poisoning and higher damage

Someone thinks that Chaos has no counter with spamming ninjas
you can make a meat shield, consist of one giant and several knights
let your marrowkai and medusa stay behind your giant
when the ninjas assassinate them, the giant will stun them and your knights will finish them all
And those magic classes have much higher hp compare with magikill...
So I think Chaos and Order is balanced
They just have different fighting style
Chaos is a bit aggressive

MiamiBigAL
12-22-2012, 06:43 AM
Chaos can deal with ninjas quite easily. You have charge/stun from juggerknights, poison, wingadons, the force attack spell from the skeleton mage, a lot of options... Once your army is capable of killing one ninja, the ninja becomes pretty worthless except for suicide attacks on the mages.

PsychoticCheez
12-22-2012, 08:35 AM
Chaos dominate the late game.

Medusa + Marrowkai combination paralyze the effects of higher tier units such as wizards and giants.

Shinobi (fully upgraded) are not a balanced solution to counter Medusa + Marrowkai. It takes two shinobi to take out one Medusa.

This assumes they catch her. The shinobi cannot cloak at an optimal time. As soon as they are in the range of a Marrowkai or Medusa, one is rendered ineffective. If they cloak before they are in range, then Medusa + Marrowkai have time to run away.

Order is forced to use lower tier units, and Chaos' lower tier units dominate Order's, e.g.
Juggerknight > Spearton
Swordwrath are butchered with ease, plus creating enough to create a decent dent will consume masses of time that you do not have.

Chaos dominate early game because
Passive healing enables crawlers to hide quickly, then harrass whatever Order builds, to death. So, build a Spearton, cos crawlers are crap against Spearton?
Juggerknight > Spearton

Let's not forget Chaos have an edge in that they can afford to create 2 crawlers and TWO miners.
If Order want to make a force that can effectively challenge these two crawlers, they must only use ONE miner.
Chaos gains an economic edge. And when everyone begins with only two miners, that one extra miner will make all the difference.

uberman
12-22-2012, 09:57 AM
Chaos dominate the late game.

Medusa + Marrowkai combination paralyze the effects of higher tier units such as wizards and giants.


Are you suggesting Medusa + Marrowkai combination can beat one giant?
Dont forget the fists spell is a single line, not an area and is much less effective than blast, in most battle situations.
In a battle, the order giants auto attack with both range and stun, the marrow and medusa require a lot of manipulation by the player to be effective.



Shinobi (fully upgraded) are not a balanced solution to counter Medusa + Marrowkai. It takes two shinobi to take out one Medusa.

This assumes they catch her. The shinobi cannot cloak at an optimal time. As soon as they are in the range of a Marrowkai or Medusa, one is rendered ineffective. If they cloak before they are in range, then Medusa + Marrowkai have time to run away.


Are you saying two ninja cant kill a medusa with near certainty? this only is any degree of a problem for them when the medusa happens to not be on cooldown if the two ninja come at her, uncloaked, even if she's not on cooldown and stones one, the other stealths and hits her - almost one shotting and poisoning her. He then out melee's her with ease. She can not out run ninja to flee. If she's not got petrify on cooldown, she kills one and dies to the second, for sure.
If shes on cool down, she dies 100% and both ninja survive, without any chance of her doing any damage to them, as she is killed for sure by the first strike of the two ninja.

Give me any possible situation where a fight of 2 ninja vs a medusa leaves both ninja dead and medusa alive - I cant think of one.

Or are you saying it would be 'balanced correctly' when one ninja can take out with 100% certainty the higher cost unit medusa?
As it is, if a single ninja strikes after she just used petrify, (which is pretty obvious) he still kills her 100% certainty - strike from stealth and melee her down for the last bit of health, she cant flee as fast as he can chase, and shes poisoned (poison does hurt them, right?) so will probably die anyway as chaos cant cure poison.



Order is forced to use lower tier units, and Chaos' lower tier units dominate Order's, e.g.
Juggerknight > Spearton
Swordwrath are butchered with ease, plus creating enough to create a decent dent will consume masses of time that you do not have.


But as Juggerknight > Spearton, then, sword greater than crawler, so fair balance in lower tier.



Chaos dominate early game because
Passive healing enables crawlers to hide quickly, then harrass whatever Order builds, to death. So, build a Spearton, cos crawlers are crap against Spearton?
Juggerknight > Spearton

Let's not forget Chaos have an edge in that they can afford to create 2 crawlers and TWO miners.
If Order want to make a force that can effectively challenge these two crawlers, they must only use ONE miner.
Chaos gains an economic edge. And when everyone begins with only two miners, that one extra miner will make all the difference.

But 2 crawlers (unbuffed) are only slightly better than one sword (unbuffed) - probably one dies, one lives. One on one, sword beat crawlers, obviously. But the cost is more in both gold and population, so it is ballanced when they are slightly better.
Rage costs just 50/50, the creeper buffs are far higher costs (two to four times the cost of rage I think) and thus are only possible later in the game.
Factor in rage, and I think 1 sword with rage at least equals or probably beats two unbuffed crawlers, and rage is available cheaply in early game.

If Order uses only one miner, and builds say 2 swords or an archer, then this does not 'effectively challenge these two crawlers' rather the two crawlers are totally ineffective against that force, as two swords or one archer easily kills two crawlers, 100% certain - all the creepers can do is (try) flee.
This is appropriate for the sacrafice of using only one miner - the certain ownership of the center will more than make up for the loss in the first moments of the game while its 3 swords & 3 miners vs 2 crawlers and 4 miners, while other units are made and the game develops.

MiamiBigAL
12-22-2012, 10:46 AM
So many things wrong with what you are saying uberman...

He never said marrowkai + medusa beats a giant, although with micromanagement they probably would. Giants are slow as hell.

He also never said two ninjas would not beat a medusa. two ninjas cost more than a medusa, so they should win. However, when the medusa dies, so do the two ninjas, so chaos is left off in a better position. Moreover, either one ninja gets stoned to death when trying to reach the Medusa, leaving one ninja to take on a medusa and its surrounding army, or they cloak too early and never reach the medusa (when they uncloak one dies instantly to stone, and the other quickly to the army. With the range of stun and force attack skills chaos has, both ninjas die).

You don't really understand why crawlers are so good. two crawlers vs one sword. One does not die, because it runs away and heals completely in 30 seconds or so. The sword definitely dies.

So possible scenarios are as follows:

2 crawlers and 2 miner vs 1 sword and 2 miners. Crawlers win middle and have same amount of miners. Chaos wins game.

2 crawlers and 2 miners vs 2 swords and 1 miner. Sword wins tower initially (but at huge cost to economy), but after second round of gold chaos takes the tower back with probably 8 crawler total or something like 6 crawlers and 2 bombers. Chaos again wins.

You want to even consider using an archer? That's suicide against chaos. With lag, it's worse than suicide. With 3 crawlers, the archer gets chased down and eaten alive. And there will be at least 2-4 more crawlers on the way.

PsychoticCheez
12-22-2012, 11:12 AM
I won't go over the things Miami has covered for me ...



Give me any possible situation where a fight of 2 ninja vs a medusa leaves both ninja dead and medusa alive - I cant think of one.


Well ...since we have a Medusa ...we assume this is mid to late game ...
Therefore we assume our opponent has the Medusa swamped with Chaos army.




Or are you saying it would be 'balanced correctly' when one ninja can take out with 100% certainty the higher cost unit medusa?
As it is, if a single ninja strikes after she just used petrify, (which is pretty obvious) he still kills her 100% certainty - strike from stealth and melee her down for the last bit of health, she cant flee as fast as he can chase, and shes poisoned (poison does hurt them, right?) so will probably die anyway as chaos cant cure poison.


You're putting words in my mouth. Never said to reduce medusa health. The issue stems from her ability to one-shot kill powerful units. This could probably be fixed by a significant reduction in range. Same for Marrowkai's reaper spell.

Oh, and the poison disappears automatically after a set time. I don't know whether it's long enough that it kills the Medusa, but I know it disappears.




But as Juggerknight > Spearton, then, sword greater than crawler, so fair balance in lower tier.


Possibly; I don't know enough of Chaos vs Order to tell whether pack mentality is superior to rage.
We are still talking late game here, right?

However your argument is flawed in that you assume Chaos will produce lower tier units in turn. You've implied that you've acknowledged that Order is forced to produce only lower tier units (based on that you didn't address that part of my post).

Chaos does not have this disadvantage. They can freely pump out giants, juggerknights, which butcher swordwrath. You can pump out about 3 swordwrath in the time it takes to pump out one giant and 0-2 juggerknights, depending how heavily you invested in economy. In any case, obtaining a giant is not an issue.

Order could probably get more swords, considering the giant has to trudge all the way to your statue. But when we factor in that each giant stuns 3 units, and also the juggerknights have their "Charge" ability, Order has no chance.

Thanks to the decent juggerknight stunning ability and the giant's ability to hit and stun 3 people at once, Order do not even have the option of rushing the opponent's statue.

uberman
12-22-2012, 11:32 AM
Take it easy guys, please not that I did not put words in your mouth, nor claim you said anything; note that as bolded below, what I said (as opposed to what you may have mis-read and thought I meant) is a series of questions, I assert nothing on your behalf.
Are you suggesting Medusa + Marrowkai combination can beat one giant?
Are you saying two ninja cant kill a medusa with near certainty?
Or are you saying it would be 'balanced correctly' when one ninja

Its a friendly debate, and I attempt to use my words with both tack and precision.

There are two sides, and as in most similar cases, reality as opposed to opinion, probably lies somewhere mid-way between.

If I made you understand a little of the other side than your own in the debate, then my job is done. If not lets not go to ad hominem

(what? no strike through text?)

ETA;

BTW running away creepers to heal is a lot like kiting with archers - its not as easy with lag as it would appear. So, if lag screws the arcer stagger-step-kite, it screws the creeper run and heal just as much (or arguably nearly as much).

asdfstick
12-22-2012, 11:51 AM
2 ninjas can beat Medusa without suffering a loss. Their shinobi( lvl 2) will kill Medusa. The 1st will severly injure her and the second will finish her off.

Dracus94
12-22-2012, 12:31 PM
Having both chaos and order accounts, it seems to me the biggest advantage chaos player often has is that a lot of players dont know the strengths, strategies and weakness of chaos.
Unfortunatly, the lack of a players experience makes him think that he's against a much stronger set of units than he actually is, and puts his defeat down to chaos being overpowered as often order players often only see the strengths of the chaos units.

In terms of units, not having a meric/healer really can be a disadvantage in a big fight. Passive is great for the skirmish stage, but weaker than healing for the big battles.
Not having range attacks on the giant makes them far weaker than the order giant in many situations.
having turrets not walls is a serious disadvantage.
Poison is only very useful when he (be it stupidly or via KIA) doesnt have a meric to cure it.
dead do very poor damage (I think, may be wrong) and are too slow to be useful in the skirmish stage of play, only in the fairly static big battles are they really much use.
Allbows seem much better than wings all things considered.

So, it is my opinion that in several ways chaos is a lot weaker than many order players understand.

And, with respect, Tec being able to own with chaos speaks more of his skill then the power of chaos.
Any high skilled player would probably own with anything half decent against a moderate player with better units.

You're not looking from both sides of things... This just seems really biased.

PsychoticCheez
12-22-2012, 12:36 PM
Take it easy guys, please not that I did not put words in your mouth, nor claim you said anything; note that as bolded below, what I said (as opposed to what you may have mis-read and thought I meant) is a series of questions, I assert nothing on your behalf.
Are you suggesting Medusa + Marrowkai combination can beat one giant?
Are you saying two ninja cant kill a medusa with near certainty?
Or are you saying it would be 'balanced correctly' when one ninja
.

I ask you to remember that I am answering all of these questions in the context of a mid-to-late game battle. No one with the desire to win will have a lone Medusa in the front lines, or even several Medusa in the front lines.

1. When I said "Medusa+Marrowkai combination", that was me being lazy, I apologize. I don't mean one literal Medusa + Marrowkai. An appropriate combo of them should do the trick. The answer to your question, is unknown. It's entirely possible.
And in the context of the late game, their abilities significantly reduce the giant's meat shield capabilities.

2. No. It takes two shinobi to take out one Medusa.



This assumes they catch her. The shinobi cannot cloak at an optimal time. As soon as they are in the range of a Marrowkai or Medusa, one is rendered ineffective. If they cloak before they are in range, then Medusa + Marrowkai have time to run away.



3. I have not once suggested this. "No" is the answer.

MiamiBigAL
12-22-2012, 03:59 PM
uberman is as far from objective as he can be for many reasons.

For one, how can you possibly argue that lag affects crawlers as much as archers? It is not arguable. It is actually highly annoying that you would even suggest this. Archers can only kite with a series of attack/retreat commands....say maybe 12 clicks of attack/retreat before it needs to garrison. Crawlers just needs one command/click, which is garrison once it has low health.

There's a difference between presenting one side of an argument and just plain being biased and/or stupid.

Tecness2
12-22-2012, 04:44 PM
uberman is as far from objective as he can be for many reasons.

For one, how can you possibly argue that lag affects crawlers as much as archers? It is not arguable. It is actually highly annoying that you would even suggest this. Archers can only kite with a series of attack/retreat commands....say maybe 12 clicks of attack/retreat before it needs to garrison. Crawlers just needs one command/click, which is garrison once it has low health.

There's a difference between presenting one side of an argument and just plain being biased and/or stupid.
Well, if you're going to "kite" with an Archidon, but only A-move with a crawler, than yeah sure. But he was talking about animation canceling, which, if the Archidon control requires your 12 clicks, the crawler requires 10. The difference is, there is normally 2 crawlers, so that number slightly increases.



There's a difference between presenting one side of an argument and just plain being biased and/or stupid.
I find that ironic. I forget, do you even have chaos?

uberman
12-22-2012, 09:28 PM
uberman is as far from objective as he can be for many reasons.


Actually I have two accounts, my order account where I play only order and its a free account - well I actually paid membership, but cancelled the auto payment incase I didnt like the game (cos I dont want to forget), and instantly lost membership - which is a rip off having paid a month membership I expect a months membership. Also I have my chaos account, which I only ever play chaos.

Fact 1; my rating is consistently higher on the order account
Facr 2; I have significantly more played games (about 20% more) on my order account

Given fact 1 I have HARD EVIDENCE that for a similar skilled order player its easier to win more games (cos I am the same player)
Given fact 2 (that I played order more than chaos) why would I, in all honesty and reasonableness, be said to be chaos-bais?



For one, how can you possibly argue that lag affects crawlers as much as archers? It is not arguable. It is actually highly annoying that you would even suggest this. Archers can only kite with a series of attack/retreat commands....say maybe 12 clicks of attack/retreat before it needs to garrison. Crawlers just needs one command/click, which is garrison once it has low health.


Thats because I believe its a noob strategy to simply wait till low crawler health and garrison.
What I do, is both attack and pull away the one getting agro a short distance - i.e. kite while the other crawler attacks the sword. If he changes target, I change crawler thats pulling away and let the original target attack, if he follows the retreating creeper it kites and regens while the other one attacks.

They have so little life, and do so little damage that this takes considerable skill - very VERY similar to when I kite my archer with the fire-run to reload - turn to fire-run to reload cycle.

If you dont even have chaos, all YOU see is a crawler staying out of range while the other chews your legs. But of course, your the one being objective (so you seem to think)



There's a difference between presenting one side of an argument and just plain being biased and/or stupid.

There is indeed.
Now I ask you to edit your post and remove the ad hominem attack, (if you dont know what that means google it and learn something) or I will report you for implying I am stupid. I may be wrong but I am not stupid.
(fact 3; I have a graduate and post graduate degree and over 20 years experience in the working environment in a range of fields)
Therefore you are demonstrably wrong.
You may say something like 'There's a difference between presenting one side of an argument and just plain being wrong and/or badly informed' and get your point across without being personal.
FFS you attack my ideas, demonstrate I am wrong and I learn from it, or you can or you attack my stickmen and trash my statue if you can and I learn technique from it, but if you attack me I will put you down.

If your going to counter facts 1,2,3,4 above and below by your opinions and nothing else, then you lose, dude.
Because evidence > opinion. Evidence is even greater than your opinion, which obviously you give a special value to.

Oh, P.S. fact 4; Tec (who knows significantly more than me about the game) does provide an argument for my point about the similarity between crawlers and archer kiting - more hard evidence that you are wrong.
(Obviously, but for clarification; even if you disagree with the argument by Tec, thats irrelevent, as it proves a reasonable argument can be provided, and this proves you wrong and me right - that it can be reasonably argued there are similarities in the effect of lag between archers and crawlers used in advanced micro-management methods as I suggested)

P.P.S.
Nothing personal, retract your implication that I am stupid and I'll go easy on you. (Or, in other words; its back to a friendly debate, no hard feelings).
If your just a kid, sorry (although kids have less sensitivity to being wrong than adults, so in that case you dont even know why I am apologizing).
And respect for your rating, your obviously a much better player of stick than I am currently.

uberman
12-22-2012, 11:50 PM
ON the order greater than chaos topic; two things
1 walls vs turrets
2 mana use of poison ability and healing

miner Walls are far far better than the turrets.

A couple of walls (ideally exactly upon each other so the victim thinks its only 1, and will stay there thinking he's nearly through, little knowing there is a second wall underneath) can stop a large force for a few valuable seconds, while they are lined up in a predictable location, unable to touch the wizzards who know exactly where to stand to be max range and put up electric walls to hit the enemy. Yes, I do this myself as Order, and watch em weep baby.

Chaos gets a couple of turrets, which the onrushers totally ignore in the majority of situations.

In a rush-counter-rush (both armies go for the enemy statue) the turret is insignificant, a couple of walls will hold the enemy back enough to let you pawn his statue.


On the issue of poison and mana use; my pack of dead can drain the entire mana of 4-5 praying miners while spamming poison (their main function) but the healing merics dont use mana to heal which is thier main function (but do to cure poison I think?)
So even if I drain his mana curing my poison, it is a waste of time as his merixcs can still heal!
(shouldnt draining his mana be a vaible counter to the darn merics keeping his troops alive as you pound on them with axes?)
This also has major infulence on chaos building reinforcements to replace lost units in a battle and for rebuilding after an assalt as all units have a high mana cost except creepers (too weak) and giants (too slow to build) while order can continue to spam archers from gold only (even if we were allowed to drain there mana as a strategy) which will automatically run to the fight and shoot from max range with a simple 'all units attack' click.

I understand that healing used to use mana, and was patched - I suggest a compromise - let it use some but less than before - or let poison from dead use no mana.

Bladed Fire
12-23-2012, 12:24 AM
ON the order greater than chaos topic; two things
1 walls vs turrets
2 mana use of poison ability and healing

miner Walls are far far better than the turrets.

A couple of walls (ideally exactly upon each other so the victim thinks its only 1, and will stay there thinking he's nearly through, little knowing there is a second wall underneath) can stop a large force for a few valuable seconds, while they are lined up in a predictable location, unable to touch the wizzards who know exactly where to stand to be max range and put up electric walls to hit the enemy. Yes, I do this myself as Order, and watch em weep baby.

Chaos gets a couple of turrets, which the onrushers totally ignore in the majority of situations.

In a rush-counter-rush (both armies go for the enemy statue) the turret is insignificant, a couple of walls will hold the enemy back enough to let you pawn his statue.


On the issue of poison and mana use; my pack of dead can drain the entire mana of 4-5 praying miners while spamming poison (their main function) but the healing merics dont use mana to heal which is thier main function (but do to cure poison I think?)
So even if I drain his mana curing my poison, it is a waste of time as his merixcs can still heal!
(shouldnt draining his mana be a vaible counter to the darn merics keeping his troops alive as you pound on them with axes?)
This also has major infulence on chaos building reinforcements to replace lost units in a battle and for rebuilding after an assalt as all units have a high mana cost except creepers (too weak) and giants (too slow to build) while order can continue to spam archers from gold only (even if we were allowed to drain there mana as a strategy) which will automatically run to the fight and shoot from max range with a simple 'all units attack' click.

I understand that healing used to use mana, and was patched - I suggest a compromise - let it use some but less than before - or let poison from dead use no mana.
Keep your word, Magikill needs to use tons of mana to cast spell, while Chaos spellcasters do not. Also, Marrowkai and Medusa have more health than Meric and Magikill( all M, lol.) Magikill's casting speed is slow while M&M are fast.Chaos have this opportunity, too.

uberman
12-23-2012, 12:58 AM
Keep your word, Magikill needs to use tons of mana to cast spell, while Chaos spellcasters do not. Also, Marrowkai and Medusa have more health than Meric and Magikill( all M, lol.) Magikill's casting speed is slow while M&M are fast.Chaos have this opportunity, too.

I dont intend to lie :)
Its an internet forum about a game - lets keep it real :)

These things you raise are the counterpoints to my points about mana.
I dont know the facts about the spell casters using mana.

But walls > turrets, agreed?

Bladed Fire
12-23-2012, 02:07 AM
I dont intend to lie :)
Its an internet forum about a game - lets keep it real :)

These things you raise are the counterpoints to my points about mana.
I dont know the facts about the spell casters using mana.

But walls > turrets, agreed?
Lol, yes, I think Chaos need to change their buildings.

PsychoticCheez
12-23-2012, 07:54 AM
Actually I have two accounts, my order account where I play only order and its a free account - well I actually paid membership, but cancelled the auto payment incase I didnt like the game (cos I dont want to forget), and instantly lost membership - which is a rip off having paid a month membership I expect a months membership. Also I have my chaos account, which I only ever play chaos.

Fact 1; my rating is consistently higher on the order account
Facr 2; I have significantly more played games (about 20% more) on my order account

Given fact 1 I have HARD EVIDENCE that for a similar skilled order player its easier to win more games (cos I am the same player)
Given fact 2 (that I played order more than chaos) why would I, in all honesty and reasonableness, be said to be chaos-bais?


I can't comment on whether you are biased to Chaos or not. Although you definitely seem to be turning a blind eye to some of the issues raised by me.

What I can say for certain is that you have the concept of "hard evidence" wrong.
You have experience playing both Order and Chaos, and having played both you find you win more often with Order.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps others experience the opposite thing? The evidence you present is yourself. You are a sample size of one. This statistic is a long, long, unbelievably long way from what most people define as "hard evidence".
There's a reason why studies on things such as medicine are done on more than just 10 people. Heck, 1000.



(fact 3; I have a graduate and post graduate degree and over 20 years experience in the working environment in a range of fields)
Therefore you are demonstrably wrong.

Please don't wave your "age and experience" around, your arguments are no more valid than another's if there are holes in it.


Oh, P.S. fact 4; Tec (who knows significantly more than me about the game) does provide an argument for my point about the similarity between crawlers and archer kiting - more hard evidence that you are wrong.
(Obviously, but for clarification; even if you disagree with the argument by Tec, thats irrelevent, as it proves a reasonable argument can be provided, and this proves you wrong and me right - that it can be reasonably argued there are similarities in the effect of lag between archers and crawlers used in advanced micro-management methods as I suggested)


Lag affects both players.
It's arguably a glitch in that it's not a desired function of the game.
The "lag affects one race more than the other" debate is irrelevant.


ON the order greater than chaos topic; two things
1 walls vs turrets
2 mana use of poison ability and healing

miner Walls are far far better than the turrets.

This is one of the few edges Order has. And considering the purpose of walls, which is to hold back an attacking force, it's not exactly a game-changer. This is with the exception of an opponent who is playing ..pretty much badly (this is what you reference below).


A couple of walls (ideally exactly upon each other so the victim thinks its only 1, and will stay there thinking he's nearly through, little knowing there is a second wall underneath) can stop a large force for a few valuable seconds, while they are lined up in a predictable location, unable to touch the wizzards who know exactly where to stand to be max range and put up electric walls to hit the enemy. Yes, I do this myself as Order, and watch em weep baby.

Chaos gets a couple of turrets, which the onrushers totally ignore in the majority of situations.

In a rush-counter-rush (both armies go for the enemy statue) the turret is insignificant, a couple of walls will hold the enemy back enough to let you pawn his statue.

Chaos is capable of rendering mages useless with an appropriate number of Medusa + Marrowkai.

And if both Order and Chaos have got to a point where they rush-counter-rush each other, then Chaos had played it terribly.




On the issue of poison and mana use; my pack of dead can drain the entire mana of 4-5 praying miners while spamming poison (their main function) but the healing merics dont use mana to heal which is thier main function (but do to cure poison I think?)
So even if I drain his mana curing my poison, it is a waste of time as his merixcs can still heal!
(shouldnt draining his mana be a vaible counter to the darn merics keeping his troops alive as you pound on them with axes?)
This also has major infulence on chaos building reinforcements to replace lost units in a battle and for rebuilding after an assalt as all units have a high mana cost except creepers (too weak) and giants (too slow to build) while order can continue to spam archers from gold only (even if we were allowed to drain there mana as a strategy) which will automatically run to the fight and shoot from max range with a simple 'all units attack' click.

I understand that healing used to use mana, and was patched - I suggest a compromise - let it use some but less than before - or let poison from dead use no mana.

You've ignored that Chaos get passive healing, for free, all throughout the game. This passive healing consumes no population or resources whatsoever.
Order's healing abilities require the consumption of space, resources, and time. Not to mention that Order's Merics are targetable whilst the passive healing of Chaos is just there.

MiamiBigAL
12-23-2012, 08:19 AM
Actually I have two accounts, my order account where I play only order and its a free account - well I actually paid membership, but cancelled the auto payment incase I didnt like the game (cos I dont want to forget), and instantly lost membership - which is a rip off having paid a month membership I expect a months membership. Also I have my chaos account, which I only ever play chaos.

Fact 1; my rating is consistently higher on the order account
Facr 2; I have significantly more played games (about 20% more) on my order account

Given fact 1 I have HARD EVIDENCE that for a similar skilled order player its easier to win more games (cos I am the same player)
Given fact 2 (that I played order more than chaos) why would I, in all honesty and reasonableness, be said to be chaos-bais?


Er....think about it dude. If you are doing better with Order, then you would naturally think Chaos is underpowered. This is why you are trying to portray it as NOT being overpowered. You are being totally illogical here. Of course you are going to defend Chaos...



There is indeed.
Now I ask you to edit your post and remove the ad hominem attack, (if you dont know what that means google it and learn something) or I will report you for implying I am stupid. I may be wrong but I am not stupid.
(fact 3; I have a graduate and post graduate degree and over 20 years experience in the working environment in a range of fields)
Therefore you are demonstrably wrong.
You may say something like 'There's a difference between presenting one side of an argument and just plain being wrong and/or badly informed' and get your point across without being personal.
FFS you attack my ideas, demonstrate I am wrong and I learn from it, or you can or you attack my stickmen and trash my statue if you can and I learn technique from it, but if you attack me I will put you down.


You make me laugh...There is nothing more defensive than someone who starts quoting this and that degree, 20 years of working experience...blah blah blah no one gives two shits. If you have to rest on your laurels in fields that have nothing to do with what we are talking about here, in order to make yourself feel better, then go ahead. But don't think it adds an ounce of credibility to any of your points. "I have a graduate degree, therefore I am incapable of saying anything stupid and you are demonstrably wrong" does not follow. Sorry. If you feel you have to post that you have a post-graduate degree to defend a point, it shows how "strong" your point was in the first place.

Moreover, are you so fragile that you have to threaten reporting someone on a random flash game forum for thinking they implied that you are stupid? I never implied you are stupid anyway. Those are your insecurities playing up. I said you were either biased and/or stupid. I left it open by use of a disjunctive that you may have just been biased. In actual fact, I was leaning towards you being biased, but by your last post I'm now starting to lean the other way. Grow a pair, seriously.



If your going to counter facts 1,2,3,4 above and below by your opinions and nothing else, then you lose, dude.
Because evidence > opinion. Evidence is even greater than your opinion, which obviously you give a special value to.

Oh, P.S. fact 4; Tec (who knows significantly more than me about the game) does provide an argument for my point about the similarity between crawlers and archer kiting - more hard evidence that you are wrong.
(Obviously, but for clarification; even if you disagree with the argument by Tec, thats irrelevent, as it proves a reasonable argument can be provided, and this proves you wrong and me right - that it can be reasonably argued there are similarities in the effect of lag between archers and crawlers used in advanced micro-management methods as I suggested)

P.P.S.
Nothing personal, retract your implication that I am stupid and I'll go easy on you. (Or, in other words; its back to a friendly debate, no hard feelings).
If your just a kid, sorry (although kids have less sensitivity to being wrong than adults, so in that case you dont even know why I am apologizing).
And respect for your rating, your obviously a much better player of stick than I am currently.

And now lets see your other arguments:

(1) "My evidence > your opinion"

What evidence? That you have played both races and now you are a guru on the balances of each race? That someone like Tec (who exudes the greatest amount of self-importance of anyone on here) backs you up when everyone already knows he's an Order-basher because he does not have the skill, experience or knowledge to use Chaos at the moment and will always back up anyone else who plays Chaos? That is your evidence? You're going to have to do better than that.

When I first started playing I would report what I found out to be possible imbalances, but always with the caveat that I hadn't done any extensive testing and I was probably wrong. You come here with comparatively very little experience and start lambasting other people's findings that have come about with a lot of extensive testing. If you can't take the heat, then don't dish it out.

When I post something about balance, I always do so with the backup of both extensive testing with other experienced players and discussions with those same players to see what they have found with their play experiences. I have also done mathematical analysis of how the game plays out to find out exactly what the game mechanics are. My "opinion", as you like to say, is far more backed up than you think and is far from just my own.

(2) "A reasonable argument can be provided, and this proves you wrong and me right".

If you want people to start respecting your opinions, then please stop making inane comments like this one. If the scientific community decided that the burden of scientific proof was satisfied by any "reasonable argument", the world would be a very scary place to live in.

uberman
12-23-2012, 11:29 AM
Er....think about it dude. If you are doing better with Order, then you would naturally think Chaos is underpowered. This is why you are trying to portray it as NOT being overpowered. You are being totally illogical here. Of course you are going to defend Chaos...


If you cant see the logic in 'a given player has a higher rating with order than chaos having played both therefore chaos is not overpowered' then I cant help you.
Right or wrong, its simple logic.



You make me laugh...


Good, at least there is some communication of value going on then.



There is nothing more defensive than someone who starts quoting this and that degree, 20 years of working experience...blah blah blah no one gives two shits. If you have to rest on your laurels in fields that have nothing to do with what we are talking about here, in order to make yourself feel better, then go ahead. But don't think it adds an ounce of credibility to any of your points. "I have a graduate degree, therefore I am incapable of saying anything stupid and you are demonstrably wrong" does not follow. Sorry. If you feel you have to post that you have a post-graduate degree to defend a point, it shows how "strong" your point was in the first place.


Bah!
I mentioned that only and specifically to counter 'I am stupid' it has no significance on the validity of my comments on stickwars. Your thinking there is so shallow its not funny.




Moreover, are you so fragile that you have to threaten reporting someone on a random flash game forum for thinking they implied that you are stupid? I never implied you are stupid anyway. Those are your insecurities playing up. I said you were either biased and/or stupid. I left it open by use of a disjunctive that you may have just been biased. In actual fact, I was leaning towards you being biased, but by your last post I'm now starting to lean the other way. Grow a pair, seriously.



I take it from this that you did not and do not intend to assert that I am stupid. I conceed that you didnt actually assert that I am stupid.




And now lets see your other arguments:

(1) "My evidence > your opinion"

What evidence? That you have played both races and now you are a guru on the balances of each race? That someone like Tec (who exudes the greatest amount of self-importance of anyone on here) backs you up when everyone already knows he's an Order-basher because he does not have the skill, experience or knowledge to use Chaos at the moment and will always back up anyone else who plays Chaos? That is your evidence? You're going to have to do better than that.

When I first started playing I would report what I found out to be possible imbalances, but always with the caveat that I hadn't done any extensive testing and I was probably wrong. You come here with comparatively very little experience and start lambasting other people's findings that have come about with a lot of extensive testing. If you can't take the heat, then don't dish it out.

When I post something about balance, I always do so with the backup of both extensive testing with other experienced players and discussions with those same players to see what they have found with their play experiences. I have also done mathematical analysis of how the game plays out to find out exactly what the game mechanics are. My "opinion", as you like to say, is far more backed up than you think and is far from just my own.

(2) "A reasonable argument can be provided, and this proves you wrong and me right".

If you want people to start respecting your opinions, then please stop making inane comments like this one. If the scientific community decided that the burden of scientific proof was satisfied by any "reasonable argument", the world would be a very scary place to live in.

The point here is that
my position; arguably (i.e. a reasonable argument exist that) ...
yours; its not arguable (i.e. no reasonable argument can be provided)

As a scientist we use peer review - its a normal and unavoidable part of scientific development, and does not make the world any more scarry. My reference to Tec is not a flawed appeal to authority, dont try suggest it is.

The evidence is Tec's argument.
The conclusion from that evidence is that Tec's argument is reasonable and has been provided, thus refuting your position that (no reasonable argument can be provided) regardless of the validity of the argument. Attacking Tec is at best simply irrelevent, at worst nothing more than ad hom.

Again, if you dont understand the structure of the argument I presented here then I cant help you.

So, I suggest we stop bickering, and return to the actual point of the thread. If you want to have 'the last say' then do a response post to which I wont respond unless you ask me a specific question or make any silly comments.
Fair enough?

MiamiBigAL
12-23-2012, 12:16 PM
If you cant see the logic in 'a given player has a higher rating with order than chaos having played both therefore chaos is not overpowered' then I cant help you.
Right or wrong, its simple logic.


That was not your argument. Your argument is that since you do better with order, you can use that as evidence to show that you are NOT BIASED when defending chaos against everyone else's assertions that it is overpowered. Unless your whole argument depends solely on the fact that you have played 20% more games as Order in which case I think you are wasting everyone else's time if you are relying solely on that one fact.

You ask why you would be chaos-biased. Isn't it obvious? It is because you comparatively suck with Chaos that you think it is underpowered. If you were GOOD with Chaos, you would then be more likely to believe it is overpowered. That is the whole point of the discussion on this thread unless you are now starting something else. How can you argue that you are not biased in your assertion that chaos is underpowered? If you fail to see the logic in this, then I can't help you.




Good, at least there is some communication of value going on then.


Too bad that is the only value from what you said.



Bah!
I mentioned that only and specifically to counter 'I am stupid' it has no significance on the validity of my comments on stickwars. Your thinking there is so shallow its not funny.


You mentioned it because you were being defensive and everyone knows it. And simply dismissing my thinking of being "shallow and not funny" is just even more evidence. I obviously hit home on a heart string, so I will leave it at that.



I take it from this that you did not and do not intend to assert that I am stupid. I conceed that you didnt actually assert that I am stupid.


Try reading it again. If you can't understand what I did clearly intend to assert like I am sure everyone else did then you are probably better off considering your fragile psychology.

And please learn to spell. I let the last 4 spelling mistakes slide, but if you were a post-graduate then I am shocked that you managed to get through your degree with this level of spelling ability. It's concede, not "conceed". Principle (in that last context) and not "principal". Scary, not "scarry"....and many more in just two posts I've read. I am not a grammar Nazi but please have some respect for the English language. If you are dyslexic then I apologize.



The point here is that
my position; arguably (i.e. a reasonable argument exist that) ...
yours; its not arguable (i.e. no reasonable argument can be provided)

As a scientist we use peer review - its a normal and unavoidable part of scientific development, and does not make the world any more scarry. My reference to Tec is not a flawed appeal to authority, dont try suggest it is.

The evidence is Tec's argument.
The conclusion from that evidence is that Tec's argument is reasonable and has been provided, thus refuting your position that (no reasonable argument can be provided) regardless of the validity of the argument. Attacking Tec is at best simply irrelevent, at worst nothing more than ad hom.

Again, if you dont understand the structure of the argument I presented here then I cant help you.

So, I suggest we stop bickering, and return to the actual point of the thread. If you want to have 'the last say' then do a response post to which I wont respond unless you ask me a specific question or make any silly comments.
Fair enough?

There's a difference between argument (you and tec) and reasonable argument (everyone else). I do not think the crawler-animation cancel is a reasonable argument. Animation-cancel was severely nerfed after the patch to the point it is possibly even detrimental to crawlers (it's certainly not advantageous to other units). I have tested crawler-animation with the best animation-canceller (captaincorps) after the update and the speed increase is virtually 0 if not 0. One mistake, which is extremely easy to make, and you have severely destroyed your advantage and shifted it in Order's favour.

Moreover, if you want to argue that attacking a swordwrath 1 on 1 with alternating crawlers is advanced-micro tactics, then god help you. Any decent player switches target as soon as you try to run away and you end up with just cutting your DPS potential by half. So no, that is not a reasonable argument. If there's lag, the ability to switch targets is affected just as badly as your ability to run away. However, with the archer, a laggy swordsman/spearton is still running after you at the same speed (IRRESPECTIVE OF LAG), so no....you cannot reasonably argue the effect of lag on a crawler is comparable to the effect of lag on an archer that simply cannot shoot and retreat effectively at all when it is laggy.

Tecness2
12-23-2012, 02:55 PM
You guys were having such a nice semi-intelligent conversation. I figured best not ruin it with those two posts you made. So I removed them. While I don't believe Uberman is a scientist, a teacher of science is a possibility.
Also, Miami, your team of experienced players is very likely to consist of Yourself, Rummaker, and CaptainCorps, who are all in the same clan, that game from the same game (Colony) last time I checked. So your "great amount of research" can be, and is, considered biased.
The strain on the Archidon, when lagging when a Swordwrath is chasing it is great. We can all agree.
Now, what about the strain on crawlers, to dodge the arrows, that fly past them, while animation canceling the running away Archidon? I consider that greater. While you may say, it gives no bonus, it gives a bonus you don't seem to understand, and from the game that you came from, it's understandable.

uberman
12-23-2012, 10:36 PM
If you are dyslexic then I apologize.

apology accepted.

As I suggested, I have given you 'the last word' because its important to some people that they have 'the last word' and dont leave points unadressed. As an adult it is trivial to me.
Now, lets try keep our future exchanges to the contents or mechanics of the game, rather than ad hom attacks and unplesent comments about people rather than the merrit of people's ideas, agreed?

uberman
12-23-2012, 10:44 PM
You guys were having such a nice semi-intelligent conversation. I figured best not ruin it with those two posts you made. So I removed them. While I don't believe Uberman is a scientist, a teacher of science is a possibility.
Also, Miami, you're team of experienced players is very likely to consist of Yourself, Rummaker, and CaptainCorps, who are all in the same clan, that game from the same game (Colony) last time I checked. So your "great amount of research" can be, and is, considered biased.
The strain on the Archidon, when lagging when a Swordwrath is chasing it is great. We can all agree.
Now, what about the strain on crawlers, to dodge the arrows, that fly past them, while animation canceling the running away Archidon? I consider that greater. While you may say, it gives no bonus, it gives a bonus you don't seem to understand, and from the game that you came from, it's understandable.


I assume that the removed posts were from Miami? As I didnt see them, no harm done.
If he could de-personalize his context and distinguish it from his content, I think I would actually enjoy reading his stuff.

TBH I dont really give a shit if you, he or anybody else believe or do not believe that I am a science teacher with appropriate graduate qualification - its quite enough for me to be factually correct on the point. If you or anybody wants to discuss that claim in a civilized manner, thats cool I have no problem with doing so. However, I do not raise the point in order to claim anything or gain anything, nor to suggest there is extra weigh and validity to my opinions about the game, it was raised only as a counter to what I took to be an implication that I am stupid. As I said, I may or may not be wrong, but I am certainally not stupid :)

I think, in fairness, I have asked a lot of questions seeking advice from more experienced players in several differeent threads. Hell, I even said to Miami w.t.e. (words to effect) 'respect for your rating your obviously a lot better player of stick than I am at the moment'

MiamiBigAL
12-24-2012, 04:32 AM
You guys were having such a nice semi-intelligent conversation. I figured best not ruin it with those two posts you made. So I removed them. While I don't believe Uberman is a scientist, a teacher of science is a possibility.
Also, Miami, your team of experienced players is very likely to consist of Yourself, Rummaker, and CaptainCorps, who are all in the same clan, that game from the same game (Colony) last time I checked. So your "great amount of research" can be, and is, considered biased.
The strain on the Archidon, when lagging when a Swordwrath is chasing it is great. We can all agree.
Now, what about the strain on crawlers, to dodge the arrows, that fly past them, while animation canceling the running away Archidon? I consider that greater. While you may say, it gives no bonus, it gives a bonus you don't seem to understand, and from the game that you came from, it's understandable.

First, I am not in the same clan as Rummaker or CaptainCorps. Just because we have played a different RTS game than this one does not make us biased. I've played Starcraft 1...so probably have most of the people on here, so what? Does that mean we all come to the same biased ideas? No.

The people I have tested/discussed with extensively is Rummaker, Captaincorps, Thunderfart, Rayman, Kilean, FrozenFury. And no, they don't all come from colony, although you'll find that 5 out of the top 10 players do, so go figure.

I have never heard of people managing to dodge arrows at will with crawlers. CrazyJay said he fixed it so projectiles don't miss anymore, but if there's still an exploitable bug allowing you to dodge arrows, that's news to me. What does animation cancel have to do with dodging arrows....don't you mean just changing direction? In any case, archers are rubbish against crawlers and anyone who starts off with an archer gets massacred by a decent chaos player, so any kind of advanced-micro related to a crawler vs Archidon battle is really a moot point.

PsychoticCheez
12-24-2012, 07:36 AM
I assume that the removed posts were from Miami? As I didnt see them, no harm done.
If he could de-personalize his context and distinguish it from his content, I think I would actually enjoy reading his stuff.

TBH I dont really give a shit if you, he or anybody else believe or do not believe that I am a science teacher with appropriate graduate qualification - its quite enough for me to be factually correct on the point.If you or anybody wants to discuss that claim in a civilized manner, thats cool I have no problem with doing so. However, I do not raise the point in order to claim anything or gain anything, nor to suggest there is extra weigh and validity to my opinions about the game, it was raised only as a counter to what I took to be an implication that I am stupid. As I said, I may or may not be wrong, but I am certainally not stupid :)





One of the removed posts were mine.

I mentioned a disbelief in your credentials. Several reasons.

1. You present your sole experience (your Order vs Chaos rankings) as "hard evidence". Being a man of science, I'm sure I wouldn't have to explain to you why this is fundamentally wrong.

2. The difference between your Order and Chaos ranking is a meaningless statistic, in that it does not directly translate to, "Since I am better with Order than Chaos, Order must be overpowered".
Correlation does not show cause and effect.
Science 101.

The argument for your being biased is attributable to how you, several times, highlight petty issues, e.g. "Merics don't consume mana to heal, this is unfair to my Deads which require mana to poison",
and then ignore Chaos' own advantages, e.g. a passive healing which requires no resources, and at times will be more effective than about two Merics.

stickman311
12-25-2012, 10:07 AM
I just fought one guy and he used crawlers to run around my swordwraths and then used bombers and destroyed all my miners. Chaos is OVERPOWERED

_Ai_
12-25-2012, 10:26 AM
Instead of being underpowered... I tthink its overpowered. If you play against a noob Chaos it may seem to be under powered but for the more experienced chaos user... They are near impossible to defeat

Bladed Fire
12-25-2012, 05:02 PM
Chaos has an advantage to rush, that's all.

DragonFrost
12-25-2012, 05:29 PM
Crawlers? The only reason they rush nicely is because they're cheap and fast. But, 2 weak points. The order dude (assuming its chaos vs order) can either
A. Get a castle archer
B. get sword wraths and rage (idk how rage is anymore, but before, sword in rage is faster than crawler)

But... If they jugger rush, I think only B works.

PsychoticCheez
12-26-2012, 05:05 AM
Crawlers? The only reason they rush nicely is because they're cheap and fast. But, 2 weak points. The order dude (assuming its chaos vs order) can either
A. Get a castle archer
B. get sword wraths and rage (idk how rage is anymore, but before, sword in rage is faster than crawler)

But... If they jugger rush, I think only B works.

We actually go into more detail over Chaos/Order imbalances in the "Rage Nerf-Debate!" thread. The following address your two points.

http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?47105-Rage-Nerf-Debate!&p=826725#post826725

http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?47105-Rage-Nerf-Debate!&p=826134#post826134

Ctrl+F "Castle archer" and "Crawler" if you're lazy

uberman
12-27-2012, 04:12 AM
Crawlers? The only reason they rush nicely is because they're cheap and fast. But, 2 weak points. The order dude (assuming its chaos vs order) can either
A. Get a castle archer
B. get sword wraths and rage (idk how rage is anymore, but before, sword in rage is faster than crawler)

But... If they jugger rush, I think only B works.

this certainally works to stop the early attacks on miners from crawlers. Its certain death for crawlers to be caught by a castle archer unless the chaos side is protecting them with other units - crawlers bothering you? just put up a castle archer and/or miner wall.

If the guy is sat on the tower spawn with a force doing hit-n-run which includes some crawlers, you are being outplayed and need a plan B.

Plan B would be a couple of miner walls and (insert defense of your choice) such as a wall of archers or a magikill or some Albows or giant(s) ...

If I was to attack with only crawlers and bombers against a miner wall with castle archer and/or archer units then
the question; how many crawlers and bombers would die before a miners wall infront of some archers went down?
Answer; all of them!

Of course, if you cant or dont put up that simple defence, or take similar measures (just a castle archer or is enough to defend the early game) you are going to be in a lot of trouble.