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View Full Version : The truth behind Chaos vs Order



kidinvisible
11-07-2012, 05:27 AM
The natural health buff which was tested by Tecness isn't much of an advantage at all. compared to the ability of Order to garrison there troops (which in start game isn't worth a Chaos player doing unless all Order troops are dead)

Proof :-



Tecness's Review
Hits were done by un-upgraded miners. I used them because they are pretty close (if not the same) in attack damage.
The % left of health, is just a rough estimate, plus, or minus, 7.5% of what I have written down.
The time, is within 3 seconds of what it actually was. I looked away a bit.

38 hits on a juggerknight(50% health left) took over 2:50 to heal while standing around.
Result:REALLY DAMN SLOWLY

38 hits on a juggerknight(50% health left) took around 34 seconds to heal while garrisoned(in combat healing and about 6-12 second travel time were not taking into account)
Result: Pretty damn quick.

39 hits on spearton(45% health left) took over 50 seconds to heal while garrisoned.
Result: Average

12ish hits on an Archidon(20% left) took 10 seconds to fully heal while garrisoned.
Result: Pretty quick but expected because of it's low health.

I didn't bother doing a swordwrath. From 20% health left, I'm assuming he'd be close the Archidon's rate.


Another thing I've found. It would take, 80(maybe 90) chaos suicide bombers, to kill an un-upgraded statue.

So..
It takes 2:30 minutes to heal half a juggerknight (not in combat) Before any mentions this being a large advantage in a large battle In this persay large battle which I myself have contest into many a times, and now never bother to mass an army because Chaos lose (Tecness has also proved) Order have merics which easily gives them an advantage In a larger battle. So that means there's no advantage beginning game or end game Unless you manage to kill a few units with crawlers early game and manage to get them to a safe distance That is the only time The health buff Chaos receives is beneficial, as crawlers as minimal health and restore after about a minute.


Chaos turret VS Order wall

The Chaos turret is weak and ineffective, I've only ever used it to help me hold the Tower spawn in very close games. Similar to the Order wall it can be used offensively, but unlike the Order wall it cannot be used Defensively as it's ineffective, a waste of miner time and resources.
Remember you can only have two towers when reading Tecness's review.


Tecness's Review
Okay, it takes the chaos tower, 5 hits to kill a single swordwrath.
It takes the Archidon, 30 hits, to kill the tower.
it takes an Archidon 6-7(I lost count...) hits to kill a miner(chaos)

Both the tower and the chaos miner, have in-combat health regeneration. The tower is considered armored, so bonus damage would be done by the flaming arrows, or the blazing bolts of the Flying Crossbowman.

Run-down
So the tower has 4.5x the health of a chaos miner (including chaos health buff)
So with two towers than means you effectively have 9 chaos miners(health wise) on the field, but for the cost of 7 roughly.
The towers do not poison (which they should)
Unlike the Order wall, do not have to target the tower (reducing the first causalities of a large battle(eg, Skeleton mages, Medusa's)) The only time the tower will get targeted is by a ghost unit if all other units are a) too far away or b) retreating.

Extra troops
Now this may just be me, I don't know about many other players who use chaos but I find the Chaos bombers, are extremely weak.
Granted they're extremely fast. But for they're damage/health they either need more health or more speed as I personally only ever use them before a large battle, or during a large battle as they can get into a large fight quickly and do damage.
But I personally find them useless; So in my opinion Chaos is effectively a unit down compared to Order, Order's comparable unit the Shinobi(assassin) I have also found to be reasonably useless but can be very effective at distracting ghost units while Castle Archers kill the ghost unit, It also has a poison ability (which chaos can't cure with any spell) Can go invisible and get to the back of an army to kill specific units (e,g mage/medusa) and though low health it's attack buff is incredibly effective.

TL;DR
I'm not saying this is unbalanced; I'm merely letting people know before they automatically assume Chaos is overpowered because players pay for it.
In-fact if both races are played by similar skilled level players 9/10 times Order should win.

RUMMAKER
11-07-2012, 12:21 PM
Way to contradict ur self with that last sentence.

RUMMAKER
11-07-2012, 12:22 PM
Ur obviously chaos biased

Mr. Evil
11-07-2012, 12:34 PM
Who fucking cares?

Tecness2
11-07-2012, 03:18 PM
Who fucking cares?
I can see that you're new to the whole "Beta" thing.

MiamiBigAL
11-07-2012, 03:47 PM
So what you're saying is...garrison healing is better than natural chaos healing. Thank...F*cking...god for that.

How about this for an argument. Juggerknight is more powerful than Spearton, therefore Chaos is overpowered.

FrozenFury3
11-07-2012, 04:39 PM
Juggerknight is as strong as the spearton without any upgrades. And its pretty much the same thing if juggerknight has charge and spearton has shield bash... i dont really get what all the arguings about, CrazyJay is clearly making changes every so often, thats why its only in Beta...

Dracus94
11-07-2012, 05:41 PM
I'm kind of confused on the last two sentences, but...
I do agree the tower is nowhere near as useful as the wall. Though I'm not too sure about the healing buff thing.

300noob
11-07-2012, 10:52 PM
i've never seen a single freaking post of ya not talk about how chaos is weak compare to order....
it just the way u use ya troops not the way ya want ya troop to be.
i got smoked and smoked back the chaos players before,... i know what they could do.

kidinvisible
11-08-2012, 02:17 AM
Way to contradict ur self with that last sentence.

How does that contradict myself?

Tecness2
11-08-2012, 06:15 AM
i've never seen a single freaking post of ya not talk about how chaos is weak compare to order....
it just the way u use ya troops not the way ya want ya troop to be.
i got smoked and smoked back the chaos players before,... i know what they could do.
As I say to a lot of people. Chaos is only good if you know how to play. As Kid has said, if two players of equal skill level play against eachother, chaos vs order, Order would win, most of the time. I don't know about 9/10, but something like that. Chaos, is weak against order if you don't use abilities and have good control.

kidinvisible
11-08-2012, 06:28 AM
As I say to a lot of people. Chaos is only good if you know how to play. As Kid has said, if two players of equal skill level play against eachother, chaos vs order, Order would win, most of the time. I don't know about 9/10, but something like that. Chaos, is weak against order if you don't use abilities and have good control.
I praise this man so much.

300noob
11-08-2012, 07:20 AM
As I say to a lot of people. Chaos is only good if you know how to play. As Kid has said, if two players of equal skill level play against eachother, chaos vs order, Order would win, most of the time. I don't know about 9/10, but something like that. Chaos, is weak against order if you don't use abilities and have good control.
Well, aren't that's the point? controlling your army to maximize it efficient, not just put them out there and say: "bring the statue head back to me."

kidinvisible
11-08-2012, 07:34 AM
Well, aren't that's the point? controlling your army to maximize it efficient, not just put them out there and say: "bring the statue head back to me."

Like he said though Chaos is weak against Order with no abilities and no control.
It doesn't matter how good your control is start game, You have no abilities and very little choice of troops to choose.
Chaos only has juggerknight start game that equates to swordswrath, 2 crawlers get wrecked by a swordswrath.
You can't range because you'd have to get mana, and then you'd still loose as you didn't have poison.
Chaos just really lacks a lot power start, generally I over power Order middle of a game, But If I make a mistake, It's an incredibly hard battle to win.
So all I'm saying is.
Chaos needs to win a game quick right? Because if order mass an army they'll lose generally.
But Chaos is at a disadvantage from the start, Chaos cannot fight Order at the start of the game, until they get a juggerknight and even by this point 3 swordswrath can kill a juggerknight,
Chaos just needs a better way to start the game off, e,g make it no mana to create the dead, seeing as to poison you pay mana anyway (and pay for the upgrade) And before you say this will be overpowered, You realise the dead are so stupidly slow you can't do what the archidon does.
When I play Chaos I usually don't struggle much for mana after 4minutes, but at the start of the game you need it so desperately.

300noob
11-08-2012, 07:48 AM
Like he said though Chaos is weak against Order with no abilities and no control.
It doesn't matter how good your control is start game, You have no abilities and very little choice of troops to choose.
Chaos only has juggerknight start game that equates to swordswrath, 2 crawlers get wrecked by a swordswrath.
You can't range because you'd have to get mana, and then you'd still loose as you didn't have poison.
Chaos just really lacks a lot power start, generally I over power Order middle of a game, But If I make a mistake, It's an incredibly hard battle to win.
So all I'm saying is.
Chaos needs to win a game quick right? Because if order mass an army they'll lose generally.
But Chaos is at a disadvantage from the start, Chaos cannot fight Order at the start of the game, until they get a juggerknight and even by this point 3 swordswrath can kill a juggerknight,
Chaos just needs a better way to start the game off, e,g make it no mana to create the dead, seeing as to poison you pay mana anyway (and pay for the upgrade) And before you say this will be overpowered, You realise the dead are so stupidly slow you can't do what the archidon does.
When I play Chaos I usually don't struggle much for mana after 4minutes, but at the start of the game you need it so desperately.
well if dead cost no mana than dead need to be nerf since it cost less in gold, much less , only 150 and well, reduce population cost come with the nerf thing (maybe)
spawn jugger/speartons first is probally the stupiest thing to do for experienced players (you will be low on economy).
2-3 cralwers can kill a archer and cause disturb near enemy base.
dead atm can kill an archer without the poison ability and still have like half the health.
the chaos is actually pretty good in the early game if ya use it right, take example like crazyjay.

kidinvisible
11-08-2012, 09:03 AM
well if dead cost no mana than dead need to be nerf since it cost less in gold, much less , only 150 and well, reduce population cost come with the nerf thing (maybe)
spawn jugger/speartons first is probally the stupiest thing to do for experienced players (you will be low on economy).
2-3 cralwers can kill a archer and cause disturb near enemy base.
dead atm can kill an archer without the poison ability and still have like half the health.
the chaos is actually pretty good in the early game if ya use it right, take example like crazyjay.

Dead cost 300 gold, 100 mana, and are much slower meaning you can't use them tactically like you can archidon.
I know jugger spawn first is stupidest which is why I never do it.
But when you look at it there's on then three types of game play.
2 crawlers, 2 miners.
All miners.
1 miner, 1 castle archer.
2 Crawlers rarely kills the archidon, especially if there's a swordswrath (You can't use 3 because by the time you've created two you're already under attack)
To kill the archidon with 2 Crawlers is down to how skilled the opponent is with there archidon.
Crawlers, hardly disturb the base (miners) if the base has any troops at all, your crawlers will only manage to kill one miner if there's an archidon attacking them.
I know Chaos can be good early game, But there's always one scenario when I play order, that I will 60% of the time loose to because there's no way around it.
I would love to know Crazyjay's tactic for Chaos, Just the first 1-2minutes would suit me.

kidinvisible
11-08-2012, 09:15 AM
Juggerknight is as strong as the spearton without any upgrades. And its pretty much the same thing if juggerknight has charge and spearton has shield bash... i dont really get what all the arguings about, CrazyJay is clearly making changes every so often, thats why its only in Beta...

I'm not arguing I'm showing evidence to support my points of what might need adjusting. Like you said it's a Beta.
In Beta's critism, feedback all of that is meant to be constructive. Not a witch hunt because most players use Order.


So what you're saying is...garrison healing is better than natural chaos healing. Thank...F*cking...god for that.

How about this for an argument. Juggerknight is more powerful than Spearton, therefore Chaos is overpowered.

What I'm saying I've had numerous people say that the Natural chaos healing makes up for the fact that's in not worth Chaos garrisoning because early game they're troops (crawlers, as once A chaos player builds a juggerknight early game it turns the tide against a swordswrath and archer)
Order have high damage, low health, decent speed troops so it's highly advantage that they rush in kill loads, take damage and run back and garrison.
While Chaos (start game) Have high speed(crawlers)Low health, below average attack.
Making any damage they do useless.



Ur obviously chaos biased

No, I'm obviously trying to give my opinions on what I see is wrong/unbalanced/needs adjusting with Chaos as it's a Beta.

300noob
11-09-2012, 12:57 AM
first, garrison is fine...since the order have no way to heal their troop like the chaos if they can't heal while garrisoning.
second, garrison cause some miners lost if the players don't withdraw them (if they do economy is slowed down)
i do agree that order garrison is anoying when im off to kill their miners and troops but, that also slow their economy down. i usually just rush in and make them withdraw the miners then back before the castle archer appear just like every other players.
third, garrison need skill too, it not just put your unit in there and get them out as they healed, that way i couldn't defense my base or capture the tower or making any pressure.
fourth, in some battle garrisoning don't work like people expect, garrison is an advantage but it also a weakpoint.
sum up
garrison not always work.

kidinvisible
11-09-2012, 04:27 AM
first, garrison is fine...since the order have no way to heal their troop like the chaos if they can't heal while garrisoning.
second, garrison cause some miners lost if the players don't withdraw them (if they do economy is slowed down)
i do agree that order garrison is anoying when im off to kill their miners and troops but, that also slow their economy down. i usually just rush in and make them withdraw the miners then back before the castle archer appear just like every other players.
third, garrison need skill too, it not just put your unit in there and get them out as they healed, that way i couldn't defense my base or capture the tower or making any pressure.
fourth, in some battle garrisoning don't work like people expect, garrison is an advantage but it also a weakpoint.
sum up
garrison not always work.

First Order have merics, and the Chaos natural heal takes 2:30 to heal 50% of a juggerknight, most games last 7 minutes, Meaning you'd only heal a full health of a juggerknight (removing time miners etc..).
Second, you can selectively garrison certain troops rather than all.
So garrison does give more of an advantage than you think.

300noob
11-09-2012, 05:37 AM
First Order have merics, and the Chaos natural heal takes 2:30 to heal 50% of a juggerknight, most games last 7 minutes, Meaning you'd only heal a full health of a juggerknight (removing time miners etc..).
Second, you can selectively garrison certain troops rather than all.
So garrison does give more of an advantage than you think.
no it doesn't
meric cost like ~300gold and 300mana which is not easy to get early game and their healing and curing abilities are glitching in some ways...
chaos can also garrison and combine with natural heal its powerful, so why ya want to eliminate the garrison heal? the garrison heal also exist in stick war 1 too.

kidinvisible
11-09-2012, 05:43 AM
no it doesn't
meric cost like ~300gold and 300mana which is not easy to get early game and their healing and curing abilities are glitching in some ways...
chaos can also garrison and combine with natural heal its powerful, so why ya want to eliminate the garrison heal? the garrison heal also exist in stick war 1 too.

Yes it does, I got tecness to prove it..
http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?44880-Tecness-Review

Difference was in Stick war 1 it was a campaign, and you could use archers while garrisoned.
Yes but I've fought idiots who get a meric after the 3-4 minute mark, So imagine some one good attempting to get one early game.
Whether or not they're glitchy isn't the issue, The fact you're trying to Chaos natural buff is as good as a meric is hilarious. Merics heal an archidon in like 3 heals.
Jesus I've said this so many times, I feel like a broken record.
Chaos have no advantage to garrisoning because there troops on needed on the field the first few minutes of the game to stop Order attacking miners.
Miners can now die so easy if you were garrisoning to heal you're miners would be dead and you'd ultimately lose.
Please actually read what I've said in all my other posts because nearly everytime I reply to you I have to say something I've already said to you.

RUMMAKER
11-09-2012, 10:28 PM
Like u said, only idiots get merics at the 3 minute mark.

300noob
11-10-2012, 07:18 AM
Yes it does, I got tecness to prove it..
http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?44880-Tecness-Review

Difference was in Stick war 1 it was a campaign, and you could use archers while garrisoned.
Yes but I've fought idiots who get a meric after the 3-4 minute mark, So imagine some one good attempting to get one early game.
Whether or not they're glitchy isn't the issue, The fact you're trying to Chaos natural buff is as good as a meric is hilarious. Merics heal an archidon in like 3 heals.
Jesus I've said this so many times, I feel like a broken record.
Chaos have no advantage to garrisoning because there troops on needed on the field the first few minutes of the game to stop Order attacking miners.
Miners can now die so easy if you were garrisoning to heal you're miners would be dead and you'd ultimately lose.
Please actually read what I've said in all my other posts because nearly everytime I reply to you I have to say something I've already said to you.
Uh...don't get it, Order also need their troops on the field too, not only chaos....now you're being bias.:confused:
another thing, meric can only heal and cure each unit, not all of them at once. with a group of meric, you can do a lot of good healing and curing but your army will be suck, the last guy try to meric-giants and meric-spearton rush me failed really bad (reason: too little in the amount units that deal damage).

Like u said, only idiots get merics at the 3 minute mark.
Rofl;)

kidinvisible
11-10-2012, 10:44 AM
Uh...don't get it, Order also need their troops on the field too, not only chaos....now you're being bias.:confused:
another thing, meric can only heal and cure each unit, not all of them at once. with a group of meric, you can do a lot of good healing and curing but your army will be suck, the last guy try to meric-giants and meric-spearton rush me failed really bad (reason: too little in the amount units that deal damage).

Rofl;)
Most Order players use 1 archer 1 swordswrath, If you're fussy about your Chaos troops health early game and garrison your crawlers, you will loose miners, losing you the game. Order players don't have to be as fussy as long as there archer stays alive they can defend there base from behind the castle. - I might film a game so you see what I mean.
I know a 1 meric can only heal one unit, but it does a lot more use than the chaos natural buff, the chaos health buff isn't as good as everyone thinks.
I've already shown why.


Like u said, only idiots get merics at the 3 minute mark.

Yes but what I'm saying is imagine if some one skilled could do Within 5 minutes.

77Row
11-10-2012, 10:57 AM
chaos are overpowered, they do the same tatic everytime, get 2 crawlers and then kill what ever units you have, they keep doing the thing which makes them hit super fast.

S-Critical
11-10-2012, 11:23 AM
chaos are not overpowered, if you know what you are doing, they are not that hard to take out

Tecness2
11-10-2012, 04:54 PM
chaos are overpowered, they do the same tatic everytime, get 2 crawlers and then kill what ever units you have, they keep doing the thing which makes them hit super fast.
Only I do that (possibly one other person) as it is me who made that tactic, and would appreciate if you didn't start yelling it out to people.

300noob
11-10-2012, 07:41 PM
Only I do that (possibly one other person) as it is me who made that tactic, and would appreciate if you didn't start yelling it out to people.
i think i know how to do that already (making the crawler hit faster)


Most Order players use 1 archer 1 swordswrath, If you're fussy about your Chaos troops health early game and garrison your crawlers, you will loose miners, losing you the game. Order players don't have to be as fussy as long as there archer stays alive they can defend there base from behind the castle. - I might film a game so you see what I mean.
I know a 1 meric can only heal one unit, but it does a lot more use than the chaos natural buff, the chaos health buff isn't as good as everyone thinks.
I've already shown why.
no, the meric heal is not as good as you think...

Yes but what I'm saying is imagine if some one skilled could do Within 5 minutes.
nope.....the good players get meric after 6 mins or so...

Ortex
11-13-2012, 08:38 PM
Okay juggerknights take very long to heal and do more damage, they are cheaper then Speartons, eclipsors are cheaper then allowtross, crawlers are faster than swordwraith and can do more damage, THEY HAVE BOMBERS THAT ARE 75 gold and kills you in one hit, giants can stun you, zombies throw GUTS AND POISON, medusa can turn in stone and put pools of poison, marrowkai are stronger than magikills, MINERS CAN BUILD TURRETS, and your saying chaos lose by order and order is over powered?

Even juggerknights can stab you and throw you on the ground plus charge and stun you... They did that because seriously they still give them advantage to heal after all this work to kill him.. So yeah

Tecness2
11-13-2012, 08:47 PM
Okay juggerknights take very long to heal and do more damage, they are cheaper then Speartons, eclipsors are cheaper then allowtross, crawlers are faster than swordwraith and can do more damage, THEY HAVE BOMBERS THAT ARE 75 gold and kills you in one hit, giants can stun you, zombies throw GUTS AND POISON, medusa can turn in stone and put pools of poison, marrowkai are stronger than magikills, MINERS CAN BUILD TURRETS, and your saying chaos lose by order and order is over powered?
Even juggerknights can stab you and throw you on the ground plus charge and stun you... They did that because seriously they still give them advantage to heal after all this work to kill him.. So yeah
Have you ever played as chaos? Juggerknights do the SAME amount of damage, as well as cost the same as speartons.
Wingadons are cheaper yes, but they are also much weaker.
Crawlers, At max damage (pack mentality + 5 crawlers) I think do the SAME as a swordwrath.
Bombers can't kill ANYTHING with full hp in one hit. Not even other bombers.
BOTH giants(enslaved and melee) can stun a unit. Archers out range deads as well as can do bonus damage towards armored units.
Medusa can do that, good observation.
Marrowkai can pull a unit, or do a WEAK line of effect attack, while magikill can poison units, blow units up, or create a massive-damage electric wall.
Chaos miners can build TWO almost useless turrets.
Order miners can build two walls.

Both chaos and order are overpowered in their own ways.

Ortex
11-13-2012, 09:09 PM
Well i was about to post that there equal but juggerknights are better than Speartons because they can stun! And bombers can kill. They explode -_- in very large numbers someone will die

I have been mistaken wit some of them,.

Tecness2
11-13-2012, 09:10 PM
Well i was about to post that there equal but juggerknights are better than Speartons because they can stun! And bombers can kill. They explode -_- in very large numbers someone will die
In very large numbers, bombers will kill something, yes. It takes about 5 bombers (That's 375 total) to kill a single swordwrath (150).
Speartons can stun too -_-

Bladed Fire
11-13-2012, 10:09 PM
Spearton can stun with shield bash right?

Bladed Fire
11-13-2012, 10:16 PM
Magikill can cast explosion as same as the bomber, spearton can defense and stun without toggling off shield wall. Look, when juggerknight charge, use spearton to toggle on shield wall. After they crush on you, use shield bash to stun the juggerknight and attack. At last who will win? I didn't test it, so can someone do this experiment to see who is better, Spearton or Juggerknight?

300noob
11-15-2012, 06:03 AM
Magikill can cast explosion as same as the bomber, spearton can defense and stun without toggling off shield wall. Look, when juggerknight charge, use spearton to toggle on shield wall. After they crush on you, use shield bash to stun the juggerknight and attack. At last who will win? I didn't test it, so can someone do this experiment to see who is better, Spearton or Juggerknight?
Nope, the jugger knight can still stun the spearton during shield wall and definately going to win.