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FrozenFury3
11-10-2012, 04:42 PM
Two things need changing, until then im not playing Stick Empires anymore.

1 - Crawler glitch/bug/trick whatever you want to call it, where 2 crawlers can kill both an archer and a swordwrath, or 2 archers and a swordwrath.
2 - Castle archer glitch, where troops hide in the corner and it keeps shooting in that one spot.

Until them im out of this game :) enjoy

Tecness2
11-10-2012, 04:56 PM
Two things need changing, until then im not playing Stick Empires anymore.

1 - Crawler glitch/bug/trick whatever you want to call it, where 2 crawlers can kill both an archer and a swordwrath, or 2 archers and a swordwrath.
2 - Castle archer glitch, where troops hide in the corner and it keeps shooting in that one spot.

Until them im out of this game :) enjoy

1: How many people are using my tactic -_-
2: That should get fixed soon.

FrozenFury3
11-10-2012, 05:02 PM
I know 4 players of which use that tactic now, and that's 4 too many, just because you guys have chaos does not mean you cant take advantage of the glitches and beat any player you want. You even admitted you could not beat me without that glitch, and once you learnt how to do it you can. Call me a whinger or whatever, all i know its unfair for every order player on the game, and that's about 90% of the gamers on Stick Empires.

asdfstick
11-10-2012, 05:14 PM
I've been using the crawler tactic ever since i got chaos(in late September).

Tecness2
11-10-2012, 05:14 PM
I know 4 players of which use that tactic now, and that's 4 too many, just because you guys have chaos does not mean you cant take advantage of the glitches and beat any player you want. You even admitted you could not beat me without that glitch, and once you learnt how to do it you can. Call me a whinger or whatever, all i know its unfair for every order player on the game, and that's about 90% of the gamers on Stick Empires.
While you call it a glitch, I could say the same about running with an archer and waiting until he's able to use his attack animation again. But I do admit, It does help me to beat you :p

FrozenFury3
11-10-2012, 05:17 PM
As i said until these changes are made, I've stopped playing.

Tecness2
11-10-2012, 05:25 PM
As i said until these changes are made, I've stopped playing.
Fine. I'll just pass you on the leaderboards. And I noticed you didn't comment on the archidon thing.

77Row
11-10-2012, 07:18 PM
The Archidon thing is easy to counter on both sides, for Order just get a Archidon, or Chaos just get Crawlers because they are super fast, so the Archidon thing doesn't really work for good players, but the Crawlers glitch needs to be fixed.

Tecness2
11-10-2012, 08:38 PM
The Archidon thing is easy to counter on both sides, for Order just get a Archidon, or Chaos just get Crawlers because they are super fast, so the Archidon thing doesn't really work for good players, but the Crawlers glitch needs to be fixed.

If you're going to "fix the crawler glitch" then you must remove that ability from the Archidon BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SAME THING
Both require you to keep moving until you're able to attack again

MiamiBigAL
11-10-2012, 09:04 PM
I think the point FF is trying to make is the crawler's ability to do damage far outweighs its cost. It is either a massive imbalance, or (more likely) an unintended consequence.

The Archidon's ability to attack/move is an intended consequence, and is also counterable.

TheFighterz
11-10-2012, 09:09 PM
What is this "Crawler Tactic" you speak of?

Tecness2
11-10-2012, 10:35 PM
What is this "Crawler Tactic" you speak of?
Something you don't need to know.

Llegacy
11-10-2012, 11:48 PM
Something you don't need to know.

Why shouldn't he know of this so called "tactic"? Are you intimidated if somebody becomes aware of this asset and uses it against you? Do you fear that you will lose your rank on the leaderboards if he is aware of the situation? I feel he or she has every right to be aware of this dillema. On a side note, it's even more pathetic and dastardly that you even declared the fact that you can't beat the top player without a bug abuse. Ultimately, that statement alone is enough evidence to show how corrupted you are as a cowardly Stick Empire's player that abused his way to the top.

CRAZY JAY
11-11-2012, 12:18 AM
Can someone post a video of this "crawler trick" because I have yet to see it in action.

Once we see it we can fix it.

FrozenFury3
11-11-2012, 12:27 AM
I think the point FF is trying to make is the crawler's ability to do damage far outweighs its cost. It is either a massive imbalance, or (more likely) an unintended consequence.

The Archidon's ability to attack/move is an intended consequence, and is also counterable.

Exactly, its unfair to Order players, when the people who pay for the game will have a huge advantage early game, and pretty much set you back so that there is no chance of catching up again. CrazyJay, play a game with either Tecness2 or CaptainCorps2 and you will see what i mean. And Llegacy, thats exactly what im talking about, the lil talk between the Chaos players, where they wont tell people how its done or anything.

Tecness2
11-11-2012, 09:07 AM
Exactly, its unfair to Order players, when the people who pay for the game will have a huge advantage early game, and pretty much set you back so that there is no chance of catching up again. CrazyJay, play a game with either Tecness2 or CaptainCorps2 and you will see what i mean. And Llegacy, thats exactly what im talking about, the lil talk between the Chaos players, where they wont tell people how its done or anything.
WRONG. unfair towards order? Lets do some math and calculations, shall we? Both order & chaos spend their 500 getting units. That's 5 crawlers (the equal time of building 5 swordwraths) vs 1 swordwrath and 1 archidon. By the time the order units are FINISHED being made and get over to the chaos worker line, the chaos normally has about 3 crawlers. 1 archer and 1 sword can easily kill that. The archer will start "kitting" the crawlers and the sword will kill the miners. Long story short: Chaos lost in less than 2 minutes. Chaos in itself is incredibly underpowered. Now, if you get all the upgrades and pit them in just an a-move war with the order's army. Chaos will lose. The ONLY reason why chaos seems powerful, is because the use of the medusa & skeleton mage(who shall be getting a nerf soon I THINK). Frozen, I like you, but I think you must have drank some "stupid juice" this morning. YOU'RE HERE, COMPLAINING ABOUT PEOPLE USING IT, AND YOU WANT ME TO TELL MORE PEOPLE HOW TO USE IT. Makes perfect sense. Also, Llegacy, I told FF how to counter it, it's actually very easy to counter.

If this "bug" is fixed, then archers should lose the ability to "kit" units. Why? Because it's only fair that way. So please, before you start crying something is OP, because the guy(s) who use it, are all ironically, in the top 5, look at your own tactics.

CrazyJay, I've uploaded it and sent it to you in a pm.

MiamiBigAL
11-11-2012, 10:57 AM
You completely missed the point Tecness. The question is whether the crawlers were intended to have a certain ability or not. If they weren't meant to, then it's a bug. If the Archidon's aren't meant to kite, then that's a bug to (but I'm pretty sure the Archidon is meant to be able to kite just like any unit).

Imbalance is a separate issue, don't confuse the two.

Tecness2
11-11-2012, 11:31 AM
You completely missed the point Tecness. The question is whether the crawlers were intended to have a certain ability or not. If they weren't meant to, then it's a bug. If the Archidon's aren't meant to kite, then that's a bug to (but I'm pretty sure the Archidon is meant to be able to kite just like any unit).

Imbalance is a separate issue, don't confuse the two.
Not really. The thing with the crawlers and the "kitting" with the archidons, ARE THE SAME THING. Why don't people get that? The fact is, if this is a "bug" then the archidon being able to do it, is also a bug.

77Row
11-11-2012, 11:52 AM
I dont have any video but this will help, CRAZYJAY.

http://i.wtfteam.net/u/f/1352726088.jpg

Basically what the crawlers are doing, they attack, then they move a bit so the dont have to wait to attack again, then they do another attack, and the same thing, so its like they are doing more damage way faster.
And its impossible to do the archidon thing against the crawlers because they so damn fast.

Then after that they go after my miners, I call my miners in so they wont get killed, then I put a castle archer up, but it wont do anything because the crawlers are hiding in the corner where the castle archer cant get them, so Im pretty much screwed at this point and the game is over.

Play against CaptainCorps2 and you will know what I mean.

MiamiBigAL
11-11-2012, 01:22 PM
Okay, that sounds like a major issue the way you describe it. Two crawlers killing one swordsman and only taking 1-2 hits of damage?

TheFighterz
11-11-2012, 01:34 PM
Something you don't need to know.

Why? I don't have Chaos, I don't plan on getting Chaos soon and I actually want to know how to counter something apparently massively overpowered. Now let me ask again, what is this "Crawler Tactic"?

FrozenFury3
11-11-2012, 04:07 PM
Okay, that sounds like a major issue the way you describe it. Two crawlers killing one swordsman and only taking 1-2 hits of damage?

77Row is absolutely correct, the swrdwraths get maybe 1 or 2 hits MAX before they are dead, if you know the crawler trick or whatever you call it, 2 crawlers can take out 2 swordwraths and an archer -.-

kilean
11-11-2012, 04:25 PM
Agreeeeeeeeeeeeed. Totally UNBALANCED XD gotta quit until fix

Tecness2
11-11-2012, 05:58 PM
I love how you all are screaming "totally unbalanced" about this, but you don't hear ANY chaos people complaining that Order's Archidon's can run, attack, run, attack as well, while Dead's can't. You don't see them complaining about the walls being so more useful than the tower. You don't see them complaining that their flying units are pretty bad against armored units. You don't see them complaining that their giants in a 1 vs 1 fight against an enslaved giant, gets their asses kicked. You want truly overpowered? Order as a whole is overpowered. Also, here's a tip:
ANY UNIT CAN DO THIS. It works best with crawlers because they have the fastest move speed, next to bombers.

As I've said, it's easily countered, if you know how, and here's how! DON'T RUN AWAY. Put your Archidon & Swordwrath in the same spot, and they will live.

77Row
11-11-2012, 07:00 PM
I love how you all are screaming "totally unbalanced" about this, but you don't hear ANY chaos people complaining that Order's Archidon's can run, attack, run, attack as well, while Dead's can't. You don't see them complaining about the walls being so more useful than the tower. You don't see them complaining that their flying units are pretty bad against armored units. You don't see them complaining that their giants in a 1 vs 1 fight against an enslaved giant, gets their asses kicked. You want truly overpowered? Order as a whole is overpowered. Also, here's a tip:
ANY UNIT CAN DO THIS. It works best with crawlers because they have the fastest move speed, next to bombers.

As I've said, it's easily countered, if you know how, and here's how! DON'T RUN AWAY. Put your Archidon & Swordwrath in the same spot, and they will live.

This is only a problem because its at the BEGINNING of the game, if they do this at the beginning then chances are they are gonna rush your base and take out your miners, and you dont see them complaining because they have everything just the way they like it, they are able to counter the archidon thing with crawlers, they are super fast and can catch them.

Tecness2
11-11-2012, 07:11 PM
This is only a problem because its at the BEGINNING of the game, if they do this at the beginning then chances are they are gonna rush your base and take out your miners, and you dont see them complaining because they have everything just the way they like it, they are able to counter the archidon thing with crawlers, they are super fast and can catch them.
THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO. But, as it is currently, with the archidon stutter step, the archidon can kill BOTH crawlers, by himself, unless using this strategy. You say "Oh chaos is overpowered, because they can kill our units with their units at the start!" Well, as I said, if both chaos and order spend their 500 on the units they can get. On MOST maps, order will win.

I know it's op, I'm the one who made this tactic. But nobody has ever asked me why.
Why did I make this tactic? To have an ACTUAL chance early game without getting a fast juggerknight, because as it currently stands, ONE swordwrath can kill TWO crawlers without control. Now, which is more op?

Now, I've told you how to counter it, I've even told several people how to do it, so stop crying, and learn how to play.

77Row
11-11-2012, 07:25 PM
THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO. But, as it is currently, with the archidon stutter step, the archidon can kill BOTH crawlers, by himself, unless using this strategy. You say "Oh chaos is overpowered, because they can kill our units with their units at the start!" Well, as I said, if both chaos and order spend their 500 on the units they can get. On MOST maps, order will win.

I know it's op, I'm the one who made this tactic. But nobody has ever asked me why.
Why did I make this tactic? To have an ACTUAL chance early game without getting a fast juggerknight, because as it currently stands, ONE swordwrath can kill TWO crawlers without control. Now, which is more op?

Now, I've told you how to counter it, I've even told several people how to do it, so stop crying, and learn how to play.

Dude, I have played against the same guy over and over and over again, and he was chaos, he kept doing the crawler thing and he beat me every time, and I practically tried every order tactic in my book, all failed, because of the fucking crawler glitch.

The one tactic that I thought was gonna work - which was getting a castle archer and building a wall - ultimately failed, because by the time I got atleast a spearton and some archidons, he already have some juggerknights, that skull mage guy, 2 medusas, and a giant, and it because of the BEGINNING. And what I though was a buttload of miners, he had twice that much.

And if 1 swordwrath can kill 2 crawlers then you are obviously sending them sepreat, send them at the same time, and not doing that annoying crawler glitch.

Besides, you act like everyone in this game is going to be a professional, we are all not basement gamers.

Tecness2
11-11-2012, 07:30 PM
Dude, I have played against the same guy over and over and over again, and he was chaos, he kept doing the crawler thing and he beat me every time, and I practically tried every order tactic in my book, all failed, because of the fucking crawler glitch.

The one tactic that I thought was gonna work - which was getting a castle archer and building a wall - ultimately failed, because by the time I got atleast a spearton and some archidons, he already have some juggerknights, that skull mage guy, 2 medusas, and a giant, and it because of the BEGINNING.

And if 1 swordwrath can kill 2 crawlers then you are obviously sending them sepreat, send them at the same time, and not doing that annoying crawler glitch.

Besides, you act like everyone in this game is going to be a professional, we are all not basement gamers.
I'm not acting like everyone in the game is going to be professional, but I AM acting like someone in the top 25, like yourself, would be.

1 Swordwrath vs 2 Crawlers, no control, at the same time, the swordwrath wins. (occasionally, he will lose with a single crawler alive with very very little hp)

Let me guess what your book is, "Archidon! Archidon + Swordwrath! Castle Archer! Castle Archer + Wall! Single Swordwrath!" Am I hitting anywhere close to your "book"?

If he had over 1400 mana, and over 3000 gold in what you consider the "beginning" of the game, either you need to learn what the beginning really is, or you're hallucinating.

77Row
11-11-2012, 07:44 PM
I'm not acting like everyone in the game is going to be professional, but I AM acting like someone in the top 25, like yourself, would be.

1 Swordwrath vs 2 Crawlers, no control, at the same time, the swordwrath wins. (occasionally, he will lose with a single crawler alive with very very little hp)

Let me guess what your book is, "Archidon! Archidon + Swordwrath! Castle Archer! Castle Archer + Wall! Single Swordwrath!" Am I hitting anywhere close to your "book"?

If he had over 1400 mana, and over 3000 gold in what you consider the "beginning" of the game, either you need to learn what the beginning really is, or you're hallucinating.

Thats only half of what 'my book' is
And nobody is going to be playing this game with no control they are not going to be like "ok ima send my crawlers into battle and then go take a shower."

When I said beginning, I mean the 2 crawlers vs whatever tatic I use, then he wins the beginning battle, then he rushes me.
Then it just goes right back to what I said: "by the time I got atleast a spearton and some archidons, he already have some juggerknights, that skull mage guy, 2 medusas, and a giant, and it because of the BEGINNING."

By the time his crawlers back off and let my miners do their job, I start getting more miners, and more, and then I build by army, and then ^^^^^ happens.
And all this happens in like 5:00 of battle time.

TheFighterz
11-11-2012, 07:45 PM
Simple solutions:

Decrease crawler attack speed VERY slightly
Archdion only reload not moving, making Kiting MUCH more difficult

:)

Tecness2
11-11-2012, 07:50 PM
Thats only half of what 'my book' is
And nobody is going to be playing this game with no control they are not going to be like "ok ima send my crawlers into battle and then go take a shower."

When I said beginning, I mean the 2 crawlers vs whatever tatic I use, then he wins the beginning battle, then he rushes me.
Then it just goes right back to what I said: "by the time I got atleast a spearton and some archidons, he already have some juggerknights, that skull mage guy, 2 medusas, and a giant, and it because of the BEGINNING."

By the time his crawlers back off and let my miners do their job, I start getting more miners, and more, and then I build by army, and then ^^^^^ happens.
And all this happens in like 5:00 of battle time.
All right then, my mistake on you not knowing what the beginning is. But if he has two medusa's, a skeleton mage, a giant and juggerknits, while you only have ONE spearton and several archers, then no amount of help in the beginning is going to help you.

Here's an idea! SPAWN A SPEARTON.

When I was getting up to the top 10, the only control I used, was on the magikill. Everything else was a-move as most people play it.

77Row
11-11-2012, 07:50 PM
Simple solutions:

Decrease crawler attack speed VERY slightly
Archdion only reload not moving, making Kiting MUCH more difficult

:)
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lltzgnHi5F1qzib3wo1_400.jpg

77Row
11-11-2012, 07:52 PM
All right then, my mistake on you not knowing what the beginning is. But if he has two medusa's, a skeleton mage, a giant and juggerknits, while you only have ONE spearton and several archers, then no amount of help in the beginning is going to help you.

Here's an idea! SPAWN A SPEARTON.

When I was getting up to the top 10, the only control I used, was on the magikill. Everything else was a-move as most people play it.

Dude I was just using the "two medusa's, a skeleton mage, a giant and juggerknits," as an example, not a real event.
What I mean is when I think I have an army that says "alright this looks good, time to counter attack..........RETREAT!" And in the middle of me SPAWNING A SPEARTON, hes using his mages, skeleton guy and medusa, to pressure my miners.

Tecness2
11-11-2012, 07:54 PM
Dude I was just using the "two medusa's, a skeleton mage, a giant and juggerknits," as an example, not a real event.
What I mean is when I think I have an army that says "alright this looks good, time to counter attack..........RETREAT!" And in the middle of me SPAWNING A SPEARTON, hes using his mages, skeleton guy and medusa, to pressure my miners.
Spawn a spearton at the start -_-


Techness2 and 77Row, I find this as grounds for... AN RHG FIGHT- oh wait, you guys don't have RHGs

In that case, it is perfect grounds for
OUR FIRST STICKEMPIRES DUEL!!!!!!!
We've already fought. I've won.

77Row
11-11-2012, 08:01 PM
Spawn a spearton at the start -_-


I have already done that, he acted like my spearton wasn't even there and went straight for my miners, and once that happens, Im screwed because if miners stop doing their job for 5 seconds then im behind in the economy.

And what would battling in stick empires accomplish? We aren't fighting or who is better, besides he is better than me,though I would like to battle him again, I dont really see the point of doing so.

Tecness2
11-11-2012, 08:04 PM
I have already done that, he acted like my spearton wasn't even there and went straight for my miners, and once that happens, Im screwed because if miners stop doing their job for 5 seconds then im behind in the economy.

And what would battling in stick empires accomplish? We aren't fighting or who is better, besides he is better than me,though I would like to battle him again, I dont really see the point of doing so.
So, your logic is, you'll keep your miners there, and let them die, rather then have them garrison and get whatever amount they are carrying in their bags?
If he passes your miners, tell your miners to attack while your spearton goes and kills his.

77Row
11-11-2012, 08:06 PM
So, your logic is, you'll keep your miners there, and let them die, rather then have them garrison and get whatever amount they are carrying in their bags?
If he passes your miners, tell your miners to attack while your spearton goes and kills his.

I did garrison them, and since his crawlers are faster and get to my miners faster, his miners are able to stack up gold be my spearton arrives.
We would both do the same thing, garrison our miners, but we cant keep it that way forever.

Edit: Just play as order against CaptainCorps2, bet money you will lose.

FrozenFury3
11-11-2012, 08:07 PM
Ive done the spearton start too just like 77Row said, he runs straight past and puts 1 cralwer in the corner where the castle archer will glitch and he kills the miners with the other crawler/ crawlers. The spearton is already pretty much useless, as by the time you get to his has hes already got about 6 miners, can already get the castle archer and pretty much won at this stage. And even if you tried defending with the spearton he will attack miners, most probably kill them before you can even kill one of those crawlers. and mean while, while your trying to stop the glitchy crawlers hes building up his economy.

Tecness2
11-11-2012, 08:07 PM
We would both do the same thing, garrison our miners but we cant keep it that way forever.
Says who? If you both do, you'd win.


Ive done the spearton start too just like 77Row said, he runs straight past and puts 1 cralwer in the corner where the castle archer will glitch and he kills the miners with the other crawler/ crawlers. The spearton is already pretty much useless, as by the time you get to his has hes already got about 6 miners, can already get the castle archer and pretty much won at this stage. And even if you tried defending with the spearton he will attack miners, most probably kill them before you can even kill one of those crawlers. and mean while, while your trying to stop the glitchy crawlers hes building up his economy.
THEN THAT'S A DIFFERENT PROBLEM ENTIRELY. I'm pretty sure you can do the same to his castle dead as well -_-

77Row
11-11-2012, 08:16 PM
Says who? If you both do, you'd win.


THEN THAT'S A DIFFERENT PROBLEM ENTIRELY. I'm pretty sure you can do the same to his castle dead as well -_-

The chaos, dead zombies castle archer guys, once they lay a hit on you, they poision your spearton whos killing the miners, once that happens, you can no longer hide in the corner, you will just die of poision.

Exxmorphing, A rematch wont solve anything.

CRAZY JAY
11-11-2012, 08:40 PM
Tec - the Video you sent is private - can you resend - And I will say this in advance - If all this talk is simply referring to what is called "animation canceling" Whereby you cancel the animation of the attack as soon as the damage is delt then click away and reclick attack. *THIS IS NORMAL AND ON PURPOSE* However if there is something else going on where 2 crawlers can take out 2 swordsman and an archer then thats fishy.

BTW Animation Cancel can be done with many units, including, Swordwrath, Shadowrath, Spearton, Juggerknight, Crawlers, and others.

I will also add, that we are trying to fix that hiding from the castle archer bug.

Tecness2
11-11-2012, 08:49 PM
Tec - the Video you sent is private - can you resend - And I will say this in advance - If all this talk is simply referring to what is called "animation canceling" Whereby you cancel the animation of the attack as soon as the damage is delt then click away and reclick attack. *THIS IS NORMAL AND ON PURPOSE* However if there is something else going on where 2 crawlers can take out 2 swordsman and an archer then thats fishy.

BTW Animation Cancel can be done with many units, including, Swordwrath, Shadowrath, Spearton, Juggerknight, Crawlers, and others.

I will also add, that we are trying to fix that hiding from the castle archer bug.
On it. Try again when you read this :p

Tecness2
11-11-2012, 09:00 PM
congrats Tecness2- you won. you are victorious.
how does it feel? was it really worth it?
please say yes, please say yes
Of course it was. I was right in several aspects, including, fast spearton, not only counters this strategy, but can attack almost immediately after.
Myself and Rummaker just proved it.

77Row
11-11-2012, 09:02 PM
hmm.... I find that a bit unfair. The people who can do it well enough have a distinct edge over others, thus dropping a lot of people's ranks. Do you think you can take it out crazyjay? I'm not sure if a lot of people will like that, since it removes boundries, but heck, you're the creator, so who am I to talk?

and it seems that 77Row has lost!!!!!
THE WAR HAS ENDED!!!

right after CRAZYJAY reveales the results of the video techness sent him, it will be
yet another thread closed- OH WAIT- frozen fury still has to post what he thinks of this, and if he will play again. man, we've drifted off the original topic.

Not so fast, the 2 crawlers vs 2 swordwrath, the crawlers have a faster attack animation so they will win, + speed with the animation cancel, so its still unfair.

Tecness2
11-11-2012, 09:04 PM
Not so fast, the 2 crawlers vs 2 swordwrath, the crawlers have a faster attack animation so they will win, + speed with the animation cancel, so its still unfair.
Have you ever thought of using "Hold position" ? It helps.


3 Population
450 Gold
50 Mana
600 Time.

CRAZY JAY
11-11-2012, 09:05 PM
Well Im not saying this is right or wrong yet, I am reviewing the video sent, if anyone else has other evidence showing crawlers being "OP" from what I see here its just animation cancel which is totally fine, and takes a bit of skill to perform. but ill let you know. I would like to see a video of 2 crawlers taking out 2 Swordwrath and an Archer - because this video only shows one archer (that's out of position and running away too late getting killed.)

I don't have enough to say one way or another right now. Fury or anyone else can you provide me with a video?

Tecness2
11-11-2012, 09:07 PM
http://youtu.be/d6EsiqSjOTU

Btw, those annoying sounds you hear, are from me spam-clicking.

Tecness2
11-11-2012, 09:10 PM
would it be possible to take animation cancelling out? I just think that many won't be happy about it...
Then that would ensure order would win almost every game. Just go Archidon + Swordwrath! Almost every game against a chaos will end in less than 4 minutes!

77Row
11-11-2012, 09:18 PM
Then that would ensure order would win almost every game. Just go Archidon + Swordwrath! Almost every game against a chaos will end in less than 4 minutes!

In a real battle that wouldn't happen, nobody would let their crawlers get killed like that, the person I fought called his crawlers back, by the time I got to his base (with my spearton) he had like 2 bombers, boom boom chika choom, my spearton dies, comes to my base, etc.

Tecness2
11-11-2012, 09:19 PM
well most people would be screwed if they go juggerknight rush in the beginning, so you don't really need animation cancelling in the first place. plus, most people who play chaos are usually better.
My normal strategy, which is not shown in the video, is pretty bauss and almost always protects me early game.


In a real battle that wouldn't happen, nobody would let their crawlers get killed like that, the person I fought called his crawlers back, by the time I got to his base (with my spearton) he had like 2 bombers, boom boom chika choom, my spearton dies, comes to my base, etc.
Now you're just being stupid. WHY WOULD YOU SEND YOUR SPEARTON TO ATTACK HIM.
Oh, and that was a real battle. We both tried to win, but I came out on top, just barely.

77Row
11-11-2012, 09:23 PM
My normal strategy, which is not shown in the video, is pretty bauss and almost always protects me early game.


Now you're just being stupid. WHY WOULD YOU SEND YOUR SPEARTON TO ATTACK HIM.
Oh, and that was a real battle. We both tried to win, but I came out on top, just barely.

Keeping my spearton at my base wouldn't change anything, we would do what you did, attack my miners, but with bombers, and you got 4 miners at the beginning at your game, with the spearton, you have to wait longer for more miners, which will be a huge economy advantage.

TheFighterz
11-11-2012, 09:24 PM
Question: Why doesn't a Castle Archer stop this strategy if it doesn't?

77Row
11-11-2012, 09:41 PM
http://i.wtfteam.net/u/f/1352719099.png

eh..hem, while im improving my economy, they are improving their army, because they already got a good economy.
(against chaos)

77Row
11-11-2012, 09:47 PM
I see, I see
by the way, exactly how much does a juggerknight cost?
and you do realize that Tecness2 signed off, and probably won't get back on for the rest of the night, 77Row?

we don't have lives, do we?

I couldn't care less if he signed off :l

77Row
11-11-2012, 09:53 PM
But don't you need someone to wage war against in order for an arguement?

This "war" wasn't really toward him, toward the fixing of the crawler glitch, and the animation cancel thing, even though I love it, it must go.

TheFighterz
11-11-2012, 10:23 PM
clarify what you mean more, then we'll answer your question

Tecness2 and others, My opinion about animation cancelling is now pending- I don't take it back, I'm just thinking about it a bit more.

I just realized that 1/6 of ALL my posts are on this thread...

2, hell, even 1, castle archer can stop the Crawler before they animation cancel if the opponent can learn to bait in the enemy.

77Row
11-11-2012, 10:58 PM
http://i.wtfteam.net/u/f/1352753881.png

3 population
450 gold
50 mana

Hes pretty much camping my base untill I call my miners out which will never happen.

77Row
11-11-2012, 11:12 PM
Nope, crawlers cost to less and come too fast.

Bladed Fire
11-12-2012, 01:30 AM
Research castle archer first at the beginning at the game against chaos and this with stand an opportunity for you to improve your economy and army (to improve your economy, don't forget to research miner hustle and passive incoming gold). Use defensive strategy is a better way to stand against chaos empire.

Tecness2
11-12-2012, 05:39 AM
Well Im not saying this is right or wrong yet, I am reviewing the video sent, if anyone else has other evidence showing crawlers being "OP" from what I see here its just animation cancel which is totally fine, and takes a bit of skill to perform. but ill let you know. I would like to see a video of 2 crawlers taking out 2 Swordwrath and an Archer - because this video only shows one archer (that's out of position and running away too late getting killed.)

I don't have enough to say one way or another right now. Fury or anyone else can you provide me with a video?
The crawlers were meant to counter the Archidon + be even more effective when he runs away.



http://i.wtfteam.net/u/f/1352719099.png

eh..hem, while im improving my economy, they are improving their army, because they already got a good economy.
(against chaos)
You have almost as large as an economy as he has, 1 miner short. You just picked bad times to build units.


http://i.wtfteam.net/u/f/1352753881.png

3 population
450 gold
50 mana

Hes pretty much camping my base untill I call my miners out which will never happen.
Sigh -_- By the time he has those 2 extra crawlers, what units did you get with your 300 gold? I'm assuming two more miners, right? Well, next time, try two swordwraths.

FrozenFury3
11-12-2012, 06:46 AM
Btw that video Tecness2 just showed you, he wasnt even doing what he would normally do. LOL, why not show him how you ACTUALLY do it Tec... CrazyJay yes that video he posted against Rummaker is perfectly fine... if that was what he actually does, its clearly not and he clearly didnt post him doing it properly. It he was doing what he dos to every other player, he would have taken out that miner out already in seconds without losing a crawler. -.- And yes i've tried spawning spearton from the start and no i didnt get to kill a crawler until i lost 2 miners already, at which point its already game over.

77Row
11-12-2012, 07:56 AM
Btw that video Tecness2 just showed you, he wasnt even doing what he would normally do. LOL, why not show him how you ACTUALLY do it Tec... CrazyJay yes that video he posted against Rummaker is perfectly fine... if that was what he actually does, its clearly not and he clearly didnt post him doing it properly. It he was doing what he dos to every other player, he would have taken out that miner out already in seconds without losing a crawler. -.- And yes i've tried spawning spearton from the start and no i didnt get to kill a crawler until i lost 2 miners already, at which point its already game over.

Yeah, and I didnt get my 300 gold income because of his rushing crawlers, by the time my spearton came out he was at my base.

http://i.wtfteam.net/u/f/1352781440.png

Ye see? its impossibru, the chaos get a bigger economy at the beginning while having 2 crawlers rushing, crawlers must cost like 100 gold.

Ninjastripy
11-12-2012, 10:21 AM
Tecness - I've lost to every chaos player I've faced, except one who just massed giants, and none of them used this crawler trick. This just makes it completely unfair to the order player. Without animation canceling chaos can still win, if they aren't a dumbass.

MiamiBigAL
11-12-2012, 12:28 PM
CrazyJay, does animation cancelling speed up every unit's attack? Seems pretty crazy.

Tecness2
11-12-2012, 02:10 PM
Yeah, and I didnt get my 300 gold income because of his rushing crawlers, by the time my spearton came out he was at my base.

http://i.wtfteam.net/u/f/1352781440.png

Ye see? its impossibru, the chaos get a bigger economy at the beginning while having 2 crawlers rushing, crawlers must cost like 100 gold.

1 Crawler, 100 gold. If he has BOTH crawlers, completed and at your base already, then, that's slow reaction time on your part.


Btw that video Tecness2 just showed you, he wasnt even doing what he would normally do. LOL, why not show him how you ACTUALLY do it Tec... CrazyJay yes that video he posted against Rummaker is perfectly fine... if that was what he actually does, its clearly not and he clearly didnt post him doing it properly. It he was doing what he dos to every other player, he would have taken out that miner out already in seconds without losing a crawler. -.- And yes i've tried spawning spearton from the start and no i didnt get to kill a crawler until i lost 2 miners already, at which point its already game over.
I tried to kill his miners, but I wasn't able to. The crawler tactic is only useful if your units are running away. If they are just standing there, tanking the damage, then another unit, say the spearton that was eating my face, can kill them.


Tecness - I've lost to every chaos player I've faced, except one who just massed giants, and none of them used this crawler trick. This just makes it completely unfair to the order player. Without animation canceling chaos can still win, if they aren't a dumbass.

Chaos can win without this trick, that is true. But, if the order player isn't a dumbass, and it's on a medium-small map, most of the time, chaos gets their ass kicked in the first minute and a half.


CrazyJay, does animation cancelling speed up every unit's attack? Seems pretty crazy.
It doesn't speed up attacks, it just removes the delay between them. It works with every unit except ranged ones(and possibly casters)

MiamiBigAL
11-12-2012, 02:20 PM
Okay, I have just done some extensive testing with CaptainCorps RE: Crawler. The results are shocking.

(1) 3 crawlers (300 gold) killed my 2 swordwraths (300 gold), where one crawler died and the other two had full life.
(2) 3 crawlers (300 gold) killed my 2 swordwraths and an archer (650 gold). There were two crawlers left. The reason for this is the crawlers just attacked the Archidon first while the swordwraths lagged behind, and after demolishing the Archidon proceeded to demolish the swordwraths.
(3) Same as 2, but I kept my archer close to my swords so the swordwraths could get some hits in while he was killing my archer. Battle was closer...still 2 crawlers left, but one very hurt. However, the crawlers could have easily killed the archidon very quickly and then run away.
(4) 3 crawlers (300 gold) vs 3 swordwraths (450 gold). Swordwraths win with one left with decent health.
(4) 1 chaos flying dude, i forget the name (400 gold 150 mana???) vs 2 archidons (600 gold). The flying dude won with about 20% health left.
(5) 1 chaos flying dude (400 gold 150 mana? I can't remember) vs 1 Albowtross (400 gold 250 mana). Albowtross won, but would have died in 2 more hits.
(6) 1 dead (300 gold 100 mana) vs 2 Archidons (600 gold). Dead wins, but only just (note: no poison)
(7) Enslaved Giant vs Chaos Giant. Enslaved giant wins with half life left. (no upgrades)
(8) 3 Enslaved Giants vs 3 Chaos Giants. The 3 Enslaved giants win with about 20% health left on each of them. (again, none upgraded)

We also tested the ability to animation-cancel with other units. The advantage is minimal with every unit except the crawler. The crawlers become significantly more effective with animation-cancel.

Don't let me get started on Medusas and Skeleton Mages either.

Right now, it seems Chaos is so overly dominant in the early game that Order has absolutely no chance against an animation-cancelling Chaos player. Note the 300 gold army destroying the 650 gold army.

Tecness2
11-12-2012, 02:28 PM
I do agree, crawlers need a nerf, but not the way everyone else does. A nerf in HP would be nice. It should only take 2 bombers to kill a crawler, not 3-4.

Dracus94
11-12-2012, 03:45 PM
I never thought about this animation cancelling thing... I wonder how well it would work on a swordwrath...
and MiamiBigAL, for number (8), since when did an archidon cost 300 gold?

CRAZY JAY
11-12-2012, 03:47 PM
Hi guys - let me clear these things up -

1. Animation Cancel is part of the game and will never be taken out.
2. The Current Crawler animation cancel is meant to be powerful but not as powerful as it is, I think it may be glitchy atm due to two issues,
a. The crawler has amazing acceleration so when you click to move away to cancel the animation it may be insta cancel which It should not.
b. As you know we have finishers or duels in the game, one of the crawlers attacks, may put him in an un-target-able state during his flip, which may be part of why they are so hard to target.

Rest assure I take all the balance stuff seriously and am thankful we have a great community to find things to fix. I'm still not 100% with my findings yet, but I am about 90% sure the crawlers animation cancel will be changed to at least will not be so instant.

----------

I will also note that , putting two units head to head to fight, is no indication of which is better, because of ability's unit composition, cost, build time, armor rating, bonus vs armor, population, moment speed acceleration, unit collaboration, and so many more....

Ninjastripy
11-12-2012, 05:02 PM
Hi guys - let me clear these things up -
1. Animation Cancel is part of the game and will never be taken out.


Why?? It just doesn't seem right. And most people won't know about animation cancel and will get their asses kicked against those who do.

FrozenFury3
11-12-2012, 07:09 PM
[QUOTE=CRAZY JAY;785958]Hi guys - let me clear these things up -

1. Animation Cancel is part of the game and will never be taken out.
2. The Current Crawler animation cancel is meant to be powerful but not as powerful as it is, I think it may be glitchy atm due to two issues,
a. The crawler has amazing acceleration so when you click to move away to cancel the animation it may be insta cancel which It should not.
b. As you know we have finishers or duels in the game, one of the crawlers attacks, may put him in an un-target-able state during his flip, which may be part of why they are so hard to target.


Well theres why we cant get hits on the cralwer, coz its invulnerable when it flips -.- ... Haha, thanks CrazyJay, all i ask for is them not to be impossible to hit and maybe a small nerf, and it reacting so fast, which makes it insta cancel. Thank you :)

CRAZY JAY
11-12-2012, 09:32 PM
Why?? It just doesn't seem right. And most people won't know about animation cancel and will get their asses kicked against those who do.

Hello - If you look at any RTS game - or even some games like street fighter - They all use animation cancel. You can always take the game to a new level with more control by using this. Starcraft2 which is of course probly the highest level of balance and gameplay for an RTS available right now, uses animation cancel in almost all of its units and most of the time you can get more then a double advantage.

If anything I will be trying to build more things like this into the game rather then take them out.

Tecness2
11-12-2012, 09:33 PM
Hello - If you look at any RTS game - or even some games like street fighter - They all use animation cancel. You can always take the game to a new level with more control by using this. Starcraft2 which is of course probly the highest level of balance and gameplay for an RTS available right now, uses animation cancel in almost all of its units and most of the time you can get more then a double advantage.

If anything I will be trying to build more things like this into the game rather then take them out.
Wait.....you think starcraft 2 is balanced?

Panki
11-12-2012, 09:41 PM
Wait.....you think starcraft 2 is balanced?

Lol that's messed up. I quit playing after a while.

FrozenFury3
11-12-2012, 11:53 PM
Hello - If you look at any RTS game - or even some games like street fighter - They all use animation cancel. You can always take the game to a new level with more control by using this. Starcraft2 which is of course probly the highest level of balance and gameplay for an RTS available right now, uses animation cancel in almost all of its units and most of the time you can get more then a double advantage.

If anything I will be trying to build more things like this into the game rather then take them out.

So nothing will be done about crawlers? Not the invulnerability when they do their flips? No hp nerf? since they can withstand 3-4 bomber attacks?

Seadefen
11-13-2012, 12:51 AM
Two things need changing, until then im not playing Stick Empires anymore.

1 - Crawler glitch/bug/trick whatever you want to call it, where 2 crawlers can kill both an archer and a swordwrath, or 2 archers and a swordwrath.
2 - Castle archer glitch, where troops hide in the corner and it keeps shooting in that one spot.

Until them im out of this game :) enjoy

Totally agree with ya. I am sick of guys who keep abusing these glitch to bully people with no membership, and even to gain high ranks. Well, true ranks should be gained by true ability not by advantages. Play fair, opportunists.

CRAZY JAY
11-13-2012, 01:06 AM
So nothing will be done about crawlers? Not the invulnerability when they do their flips? No hp nerf? since they can withstand 3-4 bomber attacks?

As I said previous We are going to fix the crawlers however, they will still be able to do animation cancels just not as crazy fast as they do now. Bombers are an area effect unit, it should take a few of them to kill one, however keep in mind 5 bombers to kill 1 but also 5 bombers to kill 50 -

CRAZY JAY
11-13-2012, 01:08 AM
Wait.....you think starcraft 2 is balanced?

People play Starcraft 2 for a profession at probably a higher level then almost any game out there, besides Chess. SC2 of course has some flaws which they are always patching but I think they put the most thought time and money into balance compared to every other game.

FrozenFury3
11-13-2012, 05:17 AM
Yea thats all that needs fixed thanks CrazyJay, cause that speed was ridiculous haha :) also make sure you dont forget about that castle archer thing :) cause it keeps attacking that one stop even if it cant reach him haha ;) love ya bro

Tecness2
11-13-2012, 01:13 PM
Chess/checkers is the most balanced game in the world. The patching IS the flaw. While they probably do put the most time and money into it, that doesn't mean they are doing it right :p.

MiamiBigAL
11-13-2012, 04:21 PM
Hi guys - let me clear these things up -

1. Animation Cancel is part of the game and will never be taken out.
2. The Current Crawler animation cancel is meant to be powerful but not as powerful as it is, I think it may be glitchy atm due to two issues,
a. The crawler has amazing acceleration so when you click to move away to cancel the animation it may be insta cancel which It should not.
b. As you know we have finishers or duels in the game, one of the crawlers attacks, may put him in an un-target-able state during his flip, which may be part of why they are so hard to target.

Rest assure I take all the balance stuff seriously and am thankful we have a great community to find things to fix. I'm still not 100% with my findings yet, but I am about 90% sure the crawlers animation cancel will be changed to at least will not be so instant.

----------

I will also note that , putting two units head to head to fight, is no indication of which is better, because of ability's unit composition, cost, build time, armor rating, bonus vs armor, population, moment speed acceleration, unit collaboration, and so many more....


I understand two units head to head is no indication of which is better, but it is a factor. In the early game, population, bonus vs armor, moment speed acceleration, and all that other stuff is virtually irrelevant in comparison. What matters is whether I am getting bigger bang for my buck. Early game is so important and if my 300 gold army can destroy my opponent's 650 gold army, there are some serious flaws that need to be addressed.

I really think you need to thought-experiment all the possible scenarios and counters in order to really balance the game. There should be a back and forth battle for the middle ground, not a one side dominate the other in 1 minute which it currently is.

DragonFrost
11-13-2012, 06:58 PM
This new patch sucks and I think I will quit until it's something else because crawlers sucks now can barely do animation cancel.
That's what CaptainCorps2 wanted to write, but for some reason he couldn't post so i wrote it for him.