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PsychoticCheez
12-13-2012, 01:26 PM
Is it just me, or does anyone else notice that it's painfully obvious who is going to win, after the first conflict?

Usually the case with me is that there will be a little skirmish of some sort over the middle tower in the beginning, and the winner of that ends up winning the game.

Takes a lot of fun out of the game, if this is the case with a lot of people.

Perhaps call it "Stick Duel, 1-3 combatants"

S-Critical
12-13-2012, 01:36 PM
thats now always the case, you can still win if you dont capture the middle tower, it just depends on the situation and how you counter-attack it.

MiamiBigAL
12-13-2012, 01:48 PM
Yeah I did make a post about it earlier. There's more emphasis on early game micromanagement than anything else. If you win the initial battle you can win in a hundred different ways.

PsychoticCheez
12-13-2012, 02:17 PM
thats now always the case, you can still win if you dont capture the middle tower, it just depends on the situation and how you counter-attack it.

Only if the initial victor makes a mistake. Either that or their victory over the middle tower was Pyrrhic (a Pyrrhic victory is a battle technically won, but at such a cost that you may as well have lost).


Yeah I did make a post about it earlier. There's more emphasis on early game micromanagement than anything else. If you win the initial battle you can win in a hundred different ways.

Where's the post? Perhaps we could take this discussion there?

MiamiBigAL
12-13-2012, 04:01 PM
page 2. "Essential fixes to maintain user interest".
http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?46000-Essential-Fixes-to-maintain-user-interest

Bladed Fire
12-13-2012, 07:59 PM
Some will be even better when they're not capturing the tower.(Rushing some kind of units)

Azxc
12-13-2012, 08:02 PM
I agree that the game is decided at the beginning
If you lost the battle just at the beginning, your enemy get the tower.
Then Middle tower has 20 gold regenerating, it is too much!
Your enemy will be richer than you, then he build more miners than you
his economy rises faster than you, he has a bigger army than you
He may also invest the extra gold on the ghost (means he is still stronger than you lol)

Then he put all his army guarding the tower, camping, he has a stronger army than you because he is richer
and you just fail to capture the tower, focus to stay near to your castle
then your enemy will send many waves of ghosts to weaken your army, your army and economy cannot grow properly because you are SUFFERING from ghosts
and he then grows, grows and grows and finally you are crushed like ants

In my opinion, the middle tower and the ghosts are OP, CrazyJay said it is for people who camped at their castle.... But... what about the people camping the middle?
the money generated is too much.... the ghost spawned too often!


Sometimes you may beat the middle guy, because he is just careless, or you specific in some tactics that his army couldn't counter with e.g. sea of ninjas or archidons
It is just careless or its your luck

_Ai_
12-13-2012, 11:55 PM
you still can win with a good enough strategy.my opponent always take the Obelisk but i still won

Azxc
12-14-2012, 02:03 AM
As I said the middle one is always richer than you
If you and him have the same ranking but you just made some mistake at the beginning
You lost

Your enemy may be just a noob, or you are just better than him Aiman
I think the middle is OP

_Ai_
12-14-2012, 02:10 AM
maybe. is 1400+ noob?

_Ai_
12-14-2012, 02:11 AM
even with his middle tower,my economy is always better.

Bladed Fire
12-14-2012, 02:16 AM
And I always capture the middle tower spawning ghosts while building my army...

_Ai_
12-14-2012, 02:24 AM
you will know if you fight me

Bladed Fire
12-14-2012, 03:14 AM
Then I'll use Spearton rush. Deal?
Edit:Just kidding but if you want to experience, no worries, I'll rush them for your "pleasure".

_Ai_
12-14-2012, 03:27 AM
deal

Edit. still can handle spearton rushers

RUMMAKER
12-14-2012, 03:32 PM
its very hard to come back but if u attack at a very spcific window u can push them back. (only if ur oppoent makes too little army though.)(basically he has to scout what u have in order to decide wether to get more miners or more army)

jerrytt
12-14-2012, 07:52 PM
I find that opponents who rush, if properly dealt with at the beggining, can be easily beaten. Even if he manages to kill 1 or two miners or forces you to garrison, his economy is still suffering because of a lack of miners.

PsychoticCheez
12-15-2012, 07:14 AM
The problem isn't rushers.

The problem is that games are decided too quickly.
One mistake in the beginning is usually just all it takes for one side to get a big enough advantage to force a win, and this takes away a lot of strategical implications.

For example, a match between two Order. One rushes a spearton, the other gets a swordwrath and an archer.
As soon as this happens, the game is decided already.

Assuming equal skill levels, the Spearton owner will win (we can all agree on this, right? The only exception would likely be on a big map). This seems unfair.

jerrytt
12-15-2012, 09:35 AM
The problem isn't rushers.

The problem is that games are decided too quickly.
One mistake in the beginning is usually just all it takes for one side to get a big enough advantage to force a win, and this takes away a lot of strategical implications.

For example, a match between two Order. One rushes a spearton, the other gets a swordwrath and an archer.
As soon as this happens, the game is decided already.

Assuming equal skill levels, the Spearton owner will win (we can all agree on this, right? The only exception would likely be on a big map). This seems unfair.

If you cant beat a spearton rusher with a swordwrath and archidon build (or if you try to fight them with those two units) then you would probably lose the game anyways...

on small maps just target their miners. on large maps you should have enough time to get more units to fight the initial threat.

PsychoticCheez
12-15-2012, 10:00 AM
on small maps just target their miners.

You're assuming the opponent wants to play a game of "tag" with your military. What if he harasses your economy in turn?

Get a castle archer? The villain can afford a castle archer too, of course.
Except your sword+archer combo will get shredded, whilst his spearton could afford to take a nap while getting shot at.

The Spearton owner thus not only gains a military advantage (the reason you won't confront him is because he's stronger, yes?), but also an economic advantage, because you have to retreat first, lest your troops die for nothing.

MiamiBigAL
12-15-2012, 10:49 AM
If you get spearton first against sword/archer on a small map, you will be utterly demolished by a pro player. Sword/Archer would destroy your economy from the beginning.

On large maps, spearton first has much more merit, but imo it's still an inferior strategy.

RUMMAKER
12-15-2012, 01:14 PM
if u see spearton build 2 more sword then u will have archer + 3 sword vs his one spearton

Triss
12-15-2012, 03:01 PM
You can still win. I fight a Chaos player, he killed all my swordwraths by his Jugger Knight, but I regroup in the castle, and rush him back. I got the central tower back, while also killing 2 of his miners. Then I win the game.

Also central tower isn't THAT important. I found a careless guy. He already buy Ghost Spawn 1, yet I have 5 Swordwraths and 2 Archidons. I beat him back and make my own ghost unit. Yet he called me pussies for using ghost units :confused:

Anyway, it's not about the advantage, it's about your strategy.

_Ai_
12-16-2012, 03:15 AM
Anyway,the Middle Tower(Obelisk) is not OP, is just an advantage.You can still win even if they have it

MiamiBigAL
12-16-2012, 05:18 AM
You can always still win no matter what the scenario. I disagree that the Tower isn't "OP". An early tower grab can mean more than a 50% boost to your economy, when extrapolated over time results in an army 1.5x that of the enemy, or much more if you start forcing them to waste resources on a castle archer early on.

RE: Triss

You can get the tower back, sure. What often happens in this case is that people go for the ghost upgrade too soon which means their army is too small to defend the tower properly. Or they've spent their resources on their economy, meaning they will hit back even harder.

_Ai_
12-16-2012, 05:47 AM
early tower grab mean they have spend some gold on the unit thatll grab it, right? depending on their first one to build, they will be advantaged or disadvantaged.Also if their early unit is rushed and killed, calculate the disadvantage they have.

having the Obelisk is an advantage/disadvantage, according to the situation

MiamiBigAL
12-16-2012, 06:56 AM
Well of course if their early unit is rush and killed that is a bad thing. If I rush and kill all your miners, that will make me win to right? You have to compare apples for apples.

If I grab the tower, I still have the early unit i built. If you get it killed that is your own fault. I can use my units to both grab the tower and harass your economy, which is where their worth comes into play. If I make you get a castle archer, you've lost.

_Ai_
12-16-2012, 07:14 AM
i ALWAYS use castle archer at the beginning of game, so im not in loss or whatever

RUMMAKER
12-16-2012, 02:02 PM
i ALWAYS use castle archer at the beginning of game, so im not in loss or whatever

obviously u never played anyone in 20+ if u think early castle archer won't lose you the game.

(that's 2 extra miners)
a one miner advantage is already big enaugh

Triss
12-16-2012, 05:11 PM
Well, castle archer is good, but better keep the money to buy better units. Ex:Giants,Magikill, Speartons, Tower Spawn 2

300noob
12-16-2012, 06:58 PM
it's a painful truth that you got the tower, you win....therefore, none of my enemies let me just take the tower, they will fight for it, they will do anything to make me lose the damn thing....and also because of that i made stratigic retreat to reserve my force and retake it (after i learned that defend the statue is more important then defend the tower when i lose all my units).
the battle i fought today was brutal with a giant+spearton+meric spammer, i lost the first battle but then i won the second one. tower keep on switching side...until i break the situation with a mage. his giant tried to kill the mage but somehow meric run to the front line and saved the mage (i don't know it's love or loyalty:D).