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View Full Version : Rage Nerf-Debate!



MiamiBigAL
12-15-2012, 04:42 PM
After much testing, I think I can conclusively say the rage nerf has extremely upset the balance between Order and Chaos. The major difference is that Chaos can get an extra miner right at the start and still harrass the hell out of Order's miners without much consequence. The 3 total miner, 2 crawler start puts chaos 50% ahead economically for almost the same amount of benefit--order will get middle tower for a short time, but chaos will harass the hell out of miners. The only thing that eventually swung things back into order's direction was the 50 gold 50 mana rage upgrade, which is now impossible to get until one round of miner gold, by which it is too late.

Things were already in favour of Chaos before the rage nerf; but now it's just impossible to beat a decent chaos player.

Essentially, you need to make it so that the 200 gold chaos spends on crawlers has a proportionate less of an effect than the 300 order has to spend on swords. At the moment this is not balanced at all, due to the fact that Chaos can grab an extra miner right from the start and still do crippling amounts of damage to Order.

Tecness2
12-15-2012, 05:18 PM
This sounds like a ....
RAGE THREAD.
Awesome pun.

How many different openings have you tried?

MiamiBigAL
12-15-2012, 05:49 PM
Loads. I wouldn't comment unless you actually know how to play Order vs Chaos.

asdfstick
12-15-2012, 07:16 PM
All you have to do is get a castle archer at the start of a match to get rid of the crawler problem. Crawlers are weak unless with pack mentality(duh) and I tested 2 crawlers vs. 1 swordwrath. The crawlers won but one died and the other had barley any health left and I don't think a chaos player with that crawler would attack your statue and if he/she does, use a miner to finish the crawler off.

Tecness2
12-15-2012, 08:26 PM
Loads. I wouldn't comment unless you actually know how to play Order vs Chaos.
That sounds like a rage post!
Rage post in a thread about rage, funny.

Anyways, that was an amazingly helpful post you made, now be more specific if you want some actual help.

MiamiBigAL
12-15-2012, 08:27 PM
Get a castle archer at the beginning and your economically screwed. You will have 3 miners vs chaos 3 miners and tower, which is equivalent to 4.5 miners. Again, chaos is now 50% ahead and you will eventually get destroyed

MiamiBigAL
12-15-2012, 08:32 PM
That sounds like a rage post!
Rage post in a thread about rage, funny.

Anyways, that was an amazingly helpful post you made, now be more specific if you want some actual help.

Not a rage post. I just think you have no idea how to play order vs chaos. I was very specific in my first post about what the problems are.

Tecness2
12-15-2012, 08:43 PM
Have you ever thought of, oh I don't know, not using rage?

MiamiBigAL
12-15-2012, 08:43 PM
Finally, someone who actually has some sense.

The early stages should at least leave players even economically but you cannot achieve this with the current balance.

I think the best thing to do would switch the emphasis on miner attack to tower attack. Put rage back to what it was and decrease castle archer cost to 150 for both sides. It would breathe a little bit more life into a teching or part-teching strat which is not really viable at the moment.

MiamiBigAL
12-15-2012, 08:45 PM
er...I don't use rage, as it is no longer viable.

Spending any money on rage just gets you killed.

Azxc
12-15-2012, 09:03 PM
If I know the enemy is using chaos
At the start I will send 2 swordwraths to the middle, make one miner
If the crawlers attack my miners, call all miners to attack those crawlers

Your swordwraths may not be able to capture the middle but your enemy will need time to get rid of your swordwrath
and you can develop your economy and get a spearton to reinforce them laterly

MiamiBigAL
12-15-2012, 09:13 PM
IF you call all your miners to attack his crawlers, that is your economy gone. He will just move his crawlers away to.

Tecness2
12-15-2012, 09:19 PM
IF you call all your miners to attack his crawlers, that is your economy gone. He will just move his crawlers away to.
Then why not, at the same time....
I'm just, thinking out-loud here...
Attack his miners?

Azxc
12-15-2012, 09:32 PM
Then why not, at the same time....
I'm just, thinking out-loud here...
Attack his miners?

Yea, it is a good idea
send your 2 swordwraths standing at the middle to his miners....

asdfstick
12-15-2012, 09:35 PM
IF you call all your miners to attack his crawlers, that is your economy gone. He will just move his crawlers away to.
i said A miner

kilean
12-15-2012, 09:38 PM
Tech, you can make order to stop mining for long long time using crawlers hit and run. If you were good at control, all decent order player will be pissed off even if the rage-upgrade is 50/50 because upgrading time is more enough to get 450 gold with 3 miners. And during that time you can make order miners stop mining.

MiamiBigAL
12-15-2012, 09:56 PM
CC took words out of my mouth.

Tecness, is it possible for you to post without being patronising?

MiamiBigAL
12-15-2012, 09:58 PM
And good point Kilean. I think we've only touched the tip of the iceberg with crawlers. Swordsrath are just useless against them. Crawlers have no need to engage swordwraths

Tecness2
12-15-2012, 10:15 PM
Yes, it is possible, but until you learn how to use the edit button, I will continue to post like this.
Also, here's a little hint, it's at the bottom right of your post. It's got a little pencil-looking-thing beside it.

Secondly, double posting and spam are things people definitely don't want to see in the forums and I don't either. You will be warned upon first offenses, but if it's frequent, a ban may be issued, if only temporary. Double posting is where you post one (or more) times after you've just posted. Unless you have a good reason to do so, avoid this habit.
So, Crawlers have no reason to attack swordwrath normally, but they have a very good reason(I'm assuming) to attack swordwrath when they use rage.

MiamiBigAL
12-16-2012, 05:12 AM
Get over yourself, you will continue to post like that anyway. You are on a massive power trip and everyone knows it. Being a mod should come with the responsibility of not being an ass.

RUMMAKER
12-16-2012, 01:15 PM
Yes, it is possible, but until you learn how to use the edit button, I will continue to post like this.
Also, here's a little hint, it's at the bottom right of your post. It's got a little pencil-looking-thing beside it.
[/COLOR]
So, Crawlers have no reason to attack swordwrath normally, but they have a very good reason(I'm assuming) to attack swordwrath when they use rage.

well post-rage nerf you get one less swordwrath or miner which is a big deal considering rage is only useful for early game chaos vs order because of bombers.

chaos can't get bombers early cuz they need crawlers to finish off the sword but mid game they have enaugh crawlers to finish the swords so they can afford to produce bombers

MiamiBigAL
12-16-2012, 01:27 PM
well post-rage nerf you get one less swordwrath or miner which is a big deal considering rage is only useful for early game chaos vs order because of bombers.

chaos can't get bombers early cuz they need crawlers to finish off the sword but mid game they have enaugh crawlers to finish the swords so they can afford to produce bombers

exactly. The extra 50 might as well be an extra 150-it does the same damage to your economy early game unless you're going for archers, which you can't really on against chaos anyway.

Once you add bombers into the mix, the advantage is shifted massively in chaos' favour as Order does not have an Area of effect weapon.

RUMMAKER
12-16-2012, 01:54 PM
exactly. The extra 50 might as well be an extra 150-it does the same damage to your economy early game unless you're going for archers, which you can't really on against chaos anyway.

Once you add bombers into the mix, the advantage is shifted massively in chaos' favour as Order does not have an Area of effect weapon.

except for magikill ... which is hard hard countered by medusa which cost the same but can kill magikill before they even get in range to cast their spells. not to mention the cast time compared to bombers.

Also, i think the chaos imbalance goes further then early game crawlers. Lets say order somehow survives chaos early game. what can they build?

we can't build
-giants (reapers Medusa chaos giants all counter order giants) (in order vs order the counter to giants is melee units & poison but chaos giants completely wipes the floor with anything that attacks at close range+the only counter to chaos giants that's not melee gets HARD countered by Medusa,skull mage, flyers etc)

-ninjas (it takes 2 fully upgraded ninjas to one shot Medusa), in order vs order one ninja one shots magikill but why is it that it takes 2 ninjas to kill a unit that costs the same as a magikill? not to mention vs chaos u can't afford to tech early cuz CRAWLERS so by the time ninjas come out ur 2 ninjas thats suppose to "assassinate" their Medusa or skull mage will end up dieing 100% of the time so ur trading 900gold 300 mana for 500 gold 500mana.

-albowtross. they buffed tross so they come out earlier but as always i would LOVE IT if they change tross back to the way they are but nerf chaos flyers. Simply because no matter how much "better(its not even that much better)" tross is by the time u get a tross out chaos will have 2 flyers out and 2 flyers > one tross. Its like giants, it doesn't matter if its good if u can't get it out it might as well not be in the game.

-magikill. one medusa and bam u instantly lose ur magikill and u can't attack into their army either because most of the time its bigger or the same as urs due to chaos early game advantage.

so what can we build
-merics we don't really have a choice here(should be self explanitory). now someone made a thread saying chaos regen is not a big deal xD well it is a huge deal. it means chaos can have their units stay on the field while order has to garrison to regen. it makes a SMALL diffrence when both sides are fighting but it makes a HUGE deal if order is losing the fight because it stretches the advantage due to the fact chaos can just hold on the the ground they gained because they don't have to garrison.

-swords. Considering high teir units get ROFLSTOMPED by medusa and skullmage and everyother OP BS chaos has it is the only viable thing we got. but guess what? bombers. unlike order aoe, bombers can't be "sniped" or "assassinated". spread out ur army? ok lol it reduces ur firepower by so much its not even funny.

-archers. might be viable if lag dident render micro impossible.

-so basically we have to build low teir units to counter chaos. but chaos low teir units have an advantage over order low teir...so how are we suppose to win again?

and finally consider the 2 sword killing miners vs the 2 crawlers killing miner scenario.

order- 3 miners. chaos- 4 miners
order builds castle archer...crawlers retreat and stay alive
chaos builds castle archer...swords die cuz poison...(unless its small map)
so chaos has center+an extra miner and possibly kills 2 swordwraths (maps bigger then/equal to mountains = swords die before getting to garrison)

MiamiBigAL
12-16-2012, 02:23 PM
except for magikill ... which is hard hard countered by medusa which cost the same but can kill magikill before they even get in range to cast their spells. not to mention the cast time compared to bombers.

Also, i think the chaos imbalance goes further then early game crawlers. Lets say order somehow survives chaos early game. what can they build?

we can't build
-giants (reapers Medusa chaos giants all counter order giants) (in order vs order the counter to giants is melee units & poison but chaos giants completely wipes the floor with anything that attacks at close range+the only counter to chaos giants that's not melee gets HARD countered by Medusa,skull mage, flyers etc)

-ninjas (it takes 2 fully upgraded ninjas to one shot Medusa), in order vs order one ninja one shots magikill but why is it that it takes 2 ninjas to kill a unit that costs the same as a magikill? not to mention vs chaos u can't afford to tech early cuz CRAWLERS so by the time ninjas come out ur 2 ninjas thats suppose to "assassinate" their Medusa or skull mage will end up dieing 100% of the time so ur trading 900gold 300 mana for 500 gold 500mana.

-albowtross. they buffed tross so they come out earlier but as always i would LOVE IT if they change tross back to the way they are but nerf chaos flyers. Simply because no matter how much "better(its not even that much better)" tross is by the time u get a tross out chaos will have 2 flyers out and 2 flyers > one tross. Its like giants, it doesn't matter if its good if u can't get it out it might as well not be in the game.

-magikill. one medusa and bam u instantly lose ur magikill and u can't attack into their army either because most of the time its bigger or the same as urs due to chaos early game advantage.

so what can we build
-merics we don't really have a choice here(should be self explanitory). now someone made a thread saying chaos regen is not a big deal xD well it is a huge deal. it means chaos can have their units stay on the field while order has to garrison to regen. it makes a SMALL diffrence when both sides are fighting but it makes a HUGE deal if order is losing the fight because it stretches the advantage due to the fact chaos can just hold on the the ground they gained because they don't have to garrison.

-swords. Considering high teir units get ROFLSTOMPED by medusa and skullmage and everyother OP BS chaos has it is the only viable thing we got. but guess what? bombers. unlike order aoe, bombers can't be "sniped" or "assassinated". spread out ur army? ok lol it reduces ur firepower by so much its not even funny.

-archers. might be viable if lag dident render micro impossible.

-so basically we have to build low teir units to counter chaos. but chaos low teir units have an advantage over order low teir...so how are we suppose to win again?

and finally consider the 2 sword killing miners vs the 2 crawlers killing miner scenario.

order- 3 miners. chaos- 4 miners
order builds castle archer...crawlers retreat and stay alive
chaos builds castle archer...swords die cuz poison...(unless its small map)
so chaos has center+an extra miner and possibly kills 2 swordwraths (maps bigger then/equal to mountains = swords die before getting to garrison)

RUMMAKER just put in words my inner rant. I only wanted to highlight the crawler problem because it is the first step of the imbalance. It alone causes such an economic disparity that it's the first thing I think should be addressed.

Azxc
12-16-2012, 05:49 PM
Chaos seems to have many advantages but....
you can beat their with 3-4 ninjas with shinobi 2
they cannot build walls to protect their mages

Medic.... I think medic is better than regen because he can heal a upgraded giant fully after some time but Chaos has to wait for long
they heal lots of hit point


and finally consider the 2 sword killing miners vs the 2 crawlers killing miner scenario.

order- 3 miners. chaos- 4 miners
order builds castle archer...crawlers retreat and stay alive
chaos builds castle archer...swords die cuz poison...(unless its small map)
so chaos has center+an extra miner and possibly kills 2 swordwraths (maps bigger then/equal to mountains = swords die before getting to garrison)

2 crawlers vs 2 swordwrath, swordwraths win..... For this case, defend the castle but not rushing to the chaos castle
miners can ignore those crawlers as they cannnot die with 2 swordwraths guarding, after 2 crawlers die, or run
capture the middle

DragonFrost
12-16-2012, 06:30 PM
2 crawlers vs 2 swordwrath, swordwraths win..... For this case, defend the castle but not rushing to the chaos castle
miners can ignore those crawlers as they cannnot die with 2 swordwraths guarding, after 2 crawlers die, or run
capture the middle

You honestly think 2 swordswrath can beat 2 crawlers?
Unless you had castle archer, then its impossible for 2 swords to beat 2 crawlers.
reason #1: They regen pretty fast (you might say, chaos regen SUCKS, but for crawlers, they get full hp quickly)
#2: they are faster

Which creates the possibility of: attacking, retreat, heal, attack, retreat, etc. and you cant even garrison your swords because then they will attack your miners.

300noob
12-16-2012, 06:44 PM
You honestly think 2 swordswrath can beat 2 crawlers?
Unless you had castle archer, then its impossible for 2 swords to beat 2 crawlers.
reason #1: They regen pretty fast (you might say, chaos regen SUCKS, but for crawlers, they get full hp quickly)
#2: they are faster

Which creates the possibility of: attacking, retreat, heal, attack, retreat, etc. and you cant even garrison your swords because then they will attack your miners.
true that,
and medusa and marowkai should get a nerf in health, they have much more health compare to a mage...petrify should not work against mage, just make them lose 1/3 of health...same for meric (maybe).....because the last few battle with chaos, i got stoned to dead by a line of medusas and line of marowkais and like 2-3 giants. every single not giant unit got stoned with a small amount of time..and my giant got draged and eventuraly finished off by Chaos giants...really anoying...and the dead....heck, they can kill archer or swordwrath without poison. crawler, they don't need to garrison and can throw all your miners to trash can.
i can beat some chaos players but simply because the lack of experiences....once they became good, unbeatable except another chaos...

Tecness2
12-16-2012, 10:19 PM
1 Swordwrath can ALMOST beat 2 Crawlers without control.
While crawlers are faster, swordwrath can still attack while they are running and also do the cancel animation trick.
Also Rummaker, a bit of what you said was wrong, but I won't get into it.

IF rage was changed from 100 gold - 50 mana TO 50 gold & 100 mana, would you all stop complaining?
No guarantee's about that.

RUMMAKER
12-16-2012, 10:29 PM
1 Swordwrath can ALMOST beat 2 Crawlers without control.
While crawlers are faster, swordwrath can still attack while they are running and also do the cancel animation trick.
Also Rummaker, a bit of what you said was wrong, but I won't get into it.

IF rage was changed from 100 gold - 50 mana TO 50 gold & 100 mana, would you all stop complaining?
No guarantee's about that.

1.animation cancel affected all units, swordwraths included.

2.i will stop complaining about rage but i will still be complaining about chaos :p.

Azxc
12-18-2012, 02:29 AM
You honestly think 2 swordswrath can beat 2 crawlers?
Unless you had castle archer, then its impossible for 2 swords to beat 2 crawlers.
reason #1: They regen pretty fast (you might say, chaos regen SUCKS, but for crawlers, they get full hp quickly)
#2: they are faster

Which creates the possibility of: attacking, retreat, heal, attack, retreat, etc. and you cant even garrison your swords because then they will attack your miners.
Yep, just focus your swords on ONE crawler, they will be scared and run away and come back after long time (have to heal fully)

_Ai_
12-18-2012, 03:46 AM
Yep, just focus your swords on ONE crawler, they will be scared and run away and come back after long time (have to heal fully)

smarter people will know teh ad vantage they have and just keep attacking untill it kill teh swordwrath
(i almost never rush so i idk. just a thought of the mind

RUMMAKER
12-18-2012, 10:02 AM
actually 2 swords does beat 2 crawlers, but the problem is u can't attack the crawlers because then ur mining goes to shit. So u need 3 swords before u can attempt to take middle against 2 crawlers(one at base and 2 to take centre).

_Ai_
12-18-2012, 10:10 AM
actually 2 swords does beat 2 crawlers, but the problem is u can't attack the crawlers because then ur mining goes to shit. So u need 3 swords before u can attempt to take middle against 2 crawlers(one at base and 2 to take centre).

wont be a prob with castle archer

RUMMAKER
12-18-2012, 10:20 AM
wont be a prob with castle archer

Castle archer = u lose, order vs chaos or order vs order

_Ai_
12-18-2012, 10:30 AM
i always use them on my starting strategy and if not encountered with giant massers,i almost always win

MiamiBigAL
12-18-2012, 05:24 PM
i always use them on my starting strategy and if not encountered with giant massers,i almost always win

What calibre of player are you playing? It won't work against a top 20 player.

RUMMAKER
12-18-2012, 05:58 PM
this is gona be really embarrassing but it's possible to lose to 1700s who go castle archers >_>.

lag is a factor but even if it wasn't lagging i still have trouble with some of them :P mainly cuz im used to playing the meta at the higher level xD.

lots of my strategies were also derived from lower rating players. just i can control and macro better then them. so im gona listen to aimen.

what do u do after getting a castle archer? whats ur game plan.

Dracus94
12-18-2012, 07:45 PM
We need more ways to deal with what chaos throws at us -_-

RUMMAKER
12-18-2012, 07:51 PM
we really went off topic here it went from rage nerf debate to me complaining about chaos xD
anyways, i would rather u guys change it to 0-150 instead of 100-50, and lower the research time a tad because with it costing 100 it will be easier to scout and predict as u need at least 2-3 miners on pray if u want to rush this ability, but then u need to nerf chaos a bit as well because this change really upset the order vs chaos balance (one less sword almost equals to chaos having 2 more crawlers)

_Ai_
12-18-2012, 08:15 PM
What calibre of player are you playing? It won't work against a top 20 player.

i dont always get paired with rating higher than me.Dont know why


this is gona be really embarrassing but it's possible to lose to 1700s who go castle archers >_>.

lag is a factor but even if it wasn't lagging i still have trouble with some of them :P mainly cuz im used to playing the meta at the higher level xD.

lots of my strategies were also derived from lower rating players. just i can control and macro better then them. so im gona listen to aimen.

what do u do after getting a castle archer? whats ur game plan.

well, because castle archer repels 1-3 swordwrath, swordwrath & archer, 1-3 crawlers i use them.(if he rushes with spearton or ghost spearton, ill make walls)
Anyway, after I research castle archer, I go for miners. once I have 11 miners (8 mining 3 praying), I start making allbowtross. If enough money, ill research blazing bolts.then go to the centre to take tower. There are always some army there.if have archer, target that first.If no kill.If there are albowtross,kill it (first strike advantage(if you get it ). If there are 3 archer/2 albowtross, retreat.make another and a spearton. with 3 albowtrosses and 2 spearton. go back to centre. if there are stronger army (giants) make more spearton and albowtross with a magikill.research both poison and electric wall. by this time i have 7 spearton, 5 albowtross, 1 magikill all full upgraded except for spearton.if there are more space in pop, choose to make spearton or giants

CRAZY JAY
12-18-2012, 10:04 PM
Hey guys sorry I took so long to see this post busy with release of Stick War 2 -

after thinking on this for a while, there are valid points on both sides however I think the issue with Rage from the start was more so that rage itself was a bit IMBA, not so much the price of it. The ability to rage run back to your base after taking tons of damage it way to strong and the rage itself seams to be a bit too fast and last a bit too long. I think what I will do next patch, is put the old price back, however nerf the rage itself slightly.

Tecness2
12-18-2012, 10:28 PM
Hey guys sorry I took so long to see this post busy with release of Stick War 2 -

after thinking on this for a while, there are valid points on both sides however I think the issue with Rage from the start was more so that rage itself was a bit IMBA, not so much the price of it. The ability to rage run back to your base after taking tons of damage it way to strong and the rage itself seams to be a bit too fast and last a bit too long. I think what I will do next patch, is put the old price back, however nerf the rage itself slightly.
You know...the idea of actually suggesting a nerf for rage instead of change the prices....somehow never crossed my mind.......

RUMMAKER
12-19-2012, 12:48 AM
Hey guys sorry I took so long to see this post busy with release of Stick War 2 -

after thinking on this for a while, there are valid points on both sides however I think the issue with Rage from the start was more so that rage itself was a bit IMBA, not so much the price of it. The ability to rage run back to your base after taking tons of damage it way to strong and the rage itself seams to be a bit too fast and last a bit too long. I think what I will do next patch, is put the old price back, however nerf the rage itself slightly.

... GENIUS !! how did I not think of that xD

xvdaemonicxv
12-19-2012, 10:13 AM
Great. Now i actually have to incorporate rage as a viable strategy. And come up with counter strat.

hate/love it.

MiamiBigAL
12-19-2012, 12:57 PM
CrazyJay's suggestion would work fine, considering there was never a problem with rage in the first place :-)

MiamiBigAL
12-22-2012, 08:02 AM
I think rage effect and speed was over-nerfed. It's not even using rage anymore once you have it because the health cost isn't worth the power up.

In order vs order it is now a useless effect. You're better off spending the 50 mana on an earlier spearton and disrupting economy. Moreover, swordwraths no longer have a role either mid or late-game, only early game. Not really worth ever building more than 2-3 the whole game.

Haven't tried vs Chaos yet, but I suspect it is similarly useless.

Lost 3 games in a row to newbies thinking swords beat speartons, but they don't anymore. Any time rage comes on, just run away....swords either retreat to heal, giving up tower, or chase again until the have no health left. You can maybe get two hits in before you have to retreat the whole army.

PsychoticCheez
12-22-2012, 08:23 AM
After much testing, I think I can conclusively say the rage nerf has extremely upset the balance between Order and Chaos. The major difference is that Chaos can get an extra miner right at the start and still harrass the hell out of Order's miners without much consequence. The 3 total miner, 2 crawler start puts chaos 50% ahead economically for almost the same amount of benefit--order will get middle tower for a short time, but chaos will harass the hell out of miners. The only thing that eventually swung things back into order's direction was the 50 gold 50 mana rage upgrade, which is now impossible to get until one round of miner gold, by which it is too late.

Things were already in favour of Chaos before the rage nerf; but now it's just impossible to beat a decent chaos player.

Essentially, you need to make it so that the 200 gold chaos spends on crawlers has a proportionate less of an effect than the 300 order has to spend on swords. At the moment this is not balanced at all, due to the fact that Chaos can grab an extra miner right from the start and still do crippling amounts of damage to Order.

So, as I interpret it, the problem seems to be that rage was the only thing that let order have a chance in the early game. Otherwise Chaos dominates. Therefore, the increased rage cost detrimented Order even more.

Therefore suggestions were made to make rage cheaper again.
It has come, but with a significant nerf.

The underlying problem is not rage. 100 gold and 50 mana, with the 6.5 second upgrade, was fine.
The underlying problem is that Chaos is overpowered (both in the beginning, and the late stages).

Chaos' dominance in early game is something I personally blame on the Juggerknight > Spearton imbalance, and also the passive healing abilities given to every Chaos troop.

It's easy to manipulate the crawlers' superior speed and passive healing to force a winning advantage against the current options Order has.
Juggerknight < Spearton imbalance just tops it off.

Make passive healing something that needs to be purchased. 100/150 mana, or somesuch figure.

Tecness2
12-22-2012, 08:58 AM
Chaos' dominance in early game is something I personally blame on the Juggerknight > Spearton imbalance, and also the passive healing abilities given to every Chaos troop.

I love how you continue to call the Juggerknight vs Spearton unbalanced. The Juggerknight will walk away from a 1 on 1 fight, with less than 5% health.
Chaos has no medics, so it has the passive healing to make up for it. The healing ability is a flat rate that's the same through all of the units, so on something like say, giants or Juggerknights. It's almost useless in anything more than a short skirmish near the middle of the game.

PsychoticCheez
12-22-2012, 09:17 AM
I love how you continue to call the Juggerknight vs Spearton unbalanced. The Juggerknight will walk away from a 1 on 1 fight, with less than 5% health.

Two units cost exactly the same, and have exactly the same build time, and consume exactly the same amount of population. All else being equal, one is guaranteed a win, every single time.
We must have different definitions of "unbalanced" here ...

Resources in the beginning are scarce enough that this "less than 5% health" Juggerknight will make all the difference.


Chaos has no medics, so it has the passive healing to make up for it.

The issue is that the passive healing is too strong in early game.

MiamiBigAL
12-22-2012, 09:18 AM
It is not almost useless. It is huge. The game is over before merics come into play anyway. Besides, Merics take up population, resources, and are easily killed. Passive healing takes up no population and no resources and is invincible. That is also a huge advantage of passive healing. Give me passive healing over merics any day.

Also, juggerknight has charge, which is actually useful instead of the spearton's practically useless abilities.

Rage has been overly nerfed now. What we really need in order to START addressing the balance is 600 starting gold instead of 500. The biggest problem is the extra miner that Chaos has. That completely upset the balance.

Tecness2
12-22-2012, 02:35 PM
Two units cost exactly the same, and have exactly the same build time, and consume exactly the same amount of population. All else being equal, one is guaranteed a win, every single time.
We must have different definitions of "unbalanced" here ...

Resources in the beginning are scarce enough that this "less than 5% health" Juggerknight will make all the difference.



The issue is that the passive healing is too strong in early game.
You're right, we do. You think, two DIFFERENT UNITS should do the exact same because they cost the same. Let's do another example from a shooter game! I like shooter games. A sniper rifle, say costs 25,000 in game points. An assault rifle, costs 23,000 points and 2,000 points for a scope. You think, they are going to do the exact same because they cost the same? No. They have different stats and are good in their own field. Don't like that? Let's go to Starcraft 2 then. 100 Minerals will get you 1 Zealot, 2 Marines, or 4 Zerglings. With enough control, those two marines could take BOTH enemies at once. With a good enough placement, that one zealot could kill all 4 zerglings. If those zerglings catch one marine off guard, they could kill all 4, but those are all highly conditional.

5%, which a miner could most likely kill him.

No, crawlers just have so little health, that it heals them quicker. Say the heal does 10 health per 3 seconds, and the crawler has 60 health. Well of course it's going to be good on the crawler, compared to the Juggerknight which has about 500(random number). I would gladly trade the Wingadon, or Skeleton Mage, & the passive healing ability for a Meric.



Also, juggerknight has charge, which is actually useful instead of the spearton's practically useless abilities.

Rage has been overly nerfed now. What we really need in order to START addressing the balance is 600 starting gold instead of 500. The biggest problem is the extra miner that Chaos has. That completely upset the balance.
Not that useless, it's great if you are put on the defensive, but it would be better if units couldn't run past the spearton in shield wall form.
So, you want chaos to start with 3 crawlers and 2 miners. Then you'll start complaining about the starting gold!

MiamiBigAL
12-22-2012, 04:05 PM
Not that useless? Your argument is that it's not that useless? If that's what it is then I rest my case.

Juggerknight/Spearton should be equal since they cost the same. Don't tell me you would trade charge for either of the Spearton's abilities.

I already complained about the starting gold. What do you mean "start" complaining? two swords on 3 crawlers is a lot better than 1 sword on two crawlers, that's for sure.

Tecness2
12-22-2012, 04:18 PM
Not that useless? Your argument is that it's not that useless? If that's what it is then I rest my case.

Juggerknight/Spearton should be equal since they cost the same. Don't tell me you would trade charge for either of the Spearton's abilities.

I already complained about the starting gold. What do you mean "start" complaining? two swords on 3 crawlers is a lot better than 1 sword on two crawlers, that's for sure.
Almost every ability, that needs to be used, is situational.
No, they should be CLOSE to equal, which they are.

So, your two swords, vs three crawlers. How fast would your miners die from three crawlers? In one post, you said and I quote:

Swordsrath are just useless against them. Crawlers have no need to engage swordwraths
So, since there is now 3 crawlers, and 2 swordwrath, the crawlers now have to attack the swordwrath? Personally, I'd prefer the enemy start with two crawlers, my miners now have a small chance.

RUMMAKER
12-22-2012, 05:41 PM
Shield bash is situational, charge ain't

Tecness2
12-22-2012, 05:47 PM
Shield bash is situational, charge ain't
Charge against giants. Charge against air units. Charge against shield-walling Speartons, who can shield-bash the Juggerknights AFTER the charge, and in turn, stun them and attack them instead. Charge against bombers.

PsychoticCheez
12-22-2012, 05:56 PM
You're right, we do. You think, two DIFFERENT UNITS should do the exact same because they cost the same. Let's do another example from a shooter game! I like shooter games. A sniper rifle, say costs 25,000 in game points. An assault rifle, costs 23,000 points and 2,000 points for a scope. You think, they are going to do the exact same because they cost the same? No. They have different stats and are good in their own field. Don't like that? Let's go to Starcraft 2 then. 100 Minerals will get you 1 Zealot, 2 Marines, or 4 Zerglings. With enough control, those two marines could take BOTH enemies at once. With a good enough placement, that one zealot could kill all 4 zerglings. If those zerglings catch one marine off guard, they could kill all 4, but those are all highly conditional.


Alright, tell me your definition of "unbalanced" in the context of this game, so we can start thinking on the same wavelength?

Your analogies are just plain wrong. A sniper and assault rifle serve completely different purposes. Their equal cost is rationalized by the fact that their strengths and weaknesses are balanced.
Same with your Starcraft analogy. Like you said, the conditions to give one side a win will be highly conditional. This means each unit will each have their strengths in certain situations, whilst having weaknesses in others.

It's an invalid analogy because the Spearton and Juggerknight serve the same role in both armies.
Juggerknights cost the same as Speartons, they perform the same roles, but the Juggerknight beats the Spearton in EVERY aspect.



5%, which a miner could most likely kill him.


Ahh, so you'll send a miner to chase after a Juggerknight?

You're ranked so high up, you can't possibly be suggesting that this Juggerknight attack with just 5% health?
Your arguments for Order and Chaos being balanced assume that the Chaos player in question has the IQ of a lemon.

It's not hard to see how one extra Juggerknight at even 1% health can make a significant difference.



No, crawlers just have so little health, that it heals them quicker. Say the heal does 10 health per 3 seconds, and the crawler has 60 health. Well of course it's going to be good on the crawler, compared to the Juggerknight which has about 500(random number). I would gladly trade the Wingadon, or Skeleton Mage, & the passive healing ability for a Meric.

I'm aware of that. The issue is that crawlers are able of harassing Order's infantry, and their superior speed means they dictate when the battle ends, and when they can recharge.
If Order's infantry holds it's ground, they'll have a rematch with Chaos' infantry once again, however the crawlers are now back at full health. Oh and look there's more coming for the party. Order is lost already.



Not that useless, it's great if you are put on the defensive, but it would be better if units couldn't run past the spearton in shield wall form.


Give me a situation, just one situation, in which Speartons using their shield wall ability (as compared to not) will turn the tide of a battle.

Tecness2
12-22-2012, 06:09 PM
Alright, tell me your definition of "unbalanced" in the context of this game, so we can start thinking on the same wavelength?

Your analogies are just plain wrong. A sniper and assault rifle serve completely different purposes. Their equal cost is rationalized by the fact that their strengths and weaknesses are balanced.
Same with your Starcraft analogy. Like you said, the conditions to give one side a win will be highly conditional. This means each unit will each have their strengths in certain situations, whilst having weaknesses in others.

It's an invalid analogy because the Spearton and Juggerknight serve the same role in both armies.
Juggerknights cost the same as Speartons, they perform the same roles, but the Juggerknight beats the Spearton in EVERY aspect.



Ahh, so you'll send a miner to chase after a Juggerknight?

You're ranked so high up, you can't possibly be suggesting that this Juggerknight attack with just 5% health?
Your arguments for Order and Chaos being balanced assume that the Chaos player in question has the IQ of a lemon.

It's not hard to see how one extra Juggerknight at even 1% health can make a significant difference.



I'm aware of that. The issue is that crawlers are able of harassing Order's infantry, and their superior speed means they dictate when the battle ends, and when they can recharge.
If Order's infantry holds it's ground, they'll have a rematch with Chaos' infantry once again, however the crawlers are now back at full health. Oh and look there's more coming for the party. Order is lost already.



Give me a situation, just one situation, in which Speartons using their shield wall ability (as compared to not) will turn the tide of a battle.
I can't think of anything in this current stage of the game that is completely unbalanced. But, in the campaign, you could research items instantly. That was unbalanced.
Exactly. The Spearton serves as a defensive unit, the Juggerknight serves as an offensive unit. One is the Shield, One is the sword....err Axe in this case.
As I've said, The Juggerknight has a higher damage and a slightly higher health(I think so on this one) as well as a slower attack speed. The spearton, as a lower damage, higher armor, and a higher attack speed.

Why send a miner to chase the Juggerknight, when you can send him to attack it WITH the spearton? Or hey, even a swordwrath! A swordwrath with rage would EASILY catch up and take down a Juggerknight right after an encounter with a spearton.

Castle archer would easily kill all the crawlers and only minimal losses to order.

Okay, 6 Speartons, 6 Archidons, 2 walls, 2 Magikill, 3 Merics Vs 4 Giants. Hey! Guess what! The Archidons did considerable damage, while the spearton's tanked it because they have a 40% damage reduction! And then the Speartons ran in, and killed off the remaining giants. Ask CrazyJay, Ask Brock, As Crimshock, ask a lot of people who have seen my late-game order. I utilize shield-wall and shield-bash to a considerable effect and it is relatively ​un-beatable.

PsychoticCheez
12-22-2012, 06:39 PM
I can't think of anything in this current stage of the game that is completely unbalanced. But, in the campaign, you could research items instantly. That was unbalanced.


You've given an example and not a definition; could I have a definition?



Exactly. The Spearton serves as a defensive unit, the Juggerknight serves as an offensive unit. One is the Shield, One is the sword....err Axe in this case.


The Spearton's effectiveness as a defensive unit doesn't match the Juggerknight's ability as an offensive unit. The shield (push?) ability is only effective if the opponent chooses to directly engage the shield-walled Speartons. Otherwise the attack's range is too small.
Compare this to the Juggerknight's charge ability. It is guaranteed to hit an opponent in front. Oh, and you can attack whilst doing it. To utilize the shield bash you need to be not even attacking.

When we also consider that a Juggerknight against a Spearton results in a win for the Juggerknight (something you've not addressed), this tips the balance is Chaos' favour even further.



Why send a miner to chase the Juggerknight, when you can send him to attack it WITH the spearton? Or hey, even a swordwrath! A swordwrath with rage would EASILY catch up and take down a Juggerknight right after an encounter with a spearton.

Castle archer would easily kill all the crawlers and only minimal losses to order.


So not only will you be getting a Spearton, you'll also be researching rage, and obtaining a swordwrath?

Whilst this Chaos player has just one Juggerknight? Again, can we please not assume the opponent has the IQ of a lemon. What is this Chaos player doing with the extra gold and extra time?

And why are we assuming that the Juggerknight will keep the swordwrath alive for the whole duration of the battle? Again, we assume our opponents are lemons.

The castle archer costs. When we consider the small income we have in the beginning, this is not a "minimal" loss to Order, and if it is, this "minimal" loss is unbalanced towards Chaos.



Okay, 6 Speartons, 6 Archidons, 2 walls, 2 Magikill, 3 Merics Vs 4 Giants. Hey! Guess what! The Archidons did considerable damage, while the spearton's tanked it because they have a 40% damage reduction! And then the Speartons ran in, and killed off the remaining giants. Ask CrazyJay, Ask Brock, As Crimshock, ask a lot of people who have seen my late-game order. I utilize shield-wall and shield-bash to a considerable effect and it is relatively ​un-beatable.

I'm sorry, I should've put that request differently.
Give me one situation in which the Chaos player does not play like a lemon, and the Shield wall is still more effective than attacking.

Your example lacks validity in that no decent Chaos player would giant spam when they have a whole arsenal of offensive units to use. Not to mention that the giants would simply stroll past your Speartons, meaning that they'd be better off attacking the giants.

KrayZStick
12-22-2012, 10:31 PM
Yes, don't rage, just smile, and then glitch them.

Tecness2
12-22-2012, 10:50 PM
You've given an example and not a definition; could I have a definition?

Something that gives you a massive advantage over your opponent(s) with little effort on your part.



The Spearton's effectiveness as a defensive unit doesn't match the Juggerknight's ability as an offensive unit. The shield (push?) ability is only effective if the opponent chooses to directly engage the shield-walled Speartons. Otherwise the attack's range is too small.
Compare this to the Juggerknight's charge ability. It is guaranteed to hit an opponent in front. Oh, and you can attack whilst doing it. To utilize the shield bash you need to be not even attacking.

The effective range of the shield bash, is I believe(could be mistaken) just higher than that of the attacking range of the spearton. I believe you and I define defensive differently. I define it as, sit back and wait in a fortified position. Water against the rocks if you will. For this, the spearton not only serves this purpose, he does it painfully well.


When we also consider that a Juggerknight against a Spearton results in a win for the Juggerknight (something you've not addressed), this tips the balance is Chaos' favour even further.

As someone said, Chaos plays aggressively, order plays defensively. Chaos is to attack, while Order is to counter.



So not only will you be getting a Spearton, you'll also be researching rage, and obtaining a swordwrath?

It was an example. An Archidon could most likely kill the Juggerknight at how low the health would be after an encounter with a Spearton. The point of me saying that, is because you continue to say, the Juggerknight is massively overpowered compared to the Spearton, and yet, as I just said, 1-2(maybe 3-4) shots from an Archidon could save the Spearton, and kill the Juggerknight. Also, I don't research rage.



Whilst this Chaos player has just one Juggerknight? Again, can we please not assume the opponent has the IQ of a lemon. What is this Chaos player doing with the extra gold and extra time?

Normally, they are building up a larger army at their base, or at the middle, while also building up their economy. It's a poker thing, why show everyone your entire hand, when you can show them one card, and let them guess?



And why are we assuming that the Juggerknight will keep the swordwrath alive for the whole duration of the battle? Again, we assume our opponents are lemons.

See, now you're assuming the Order player is a lemon(why a lemon? Why not a lime or an apple?), he could easily have the Swordwrath attack once, run back, attack again, run back, or hand back for a while OR attack and when he gets too injured, retreat it?



The castle archer costs. When we consider the small income we have in the beginning, this is not a "minimal" loss to Order, and if it is, this "minimal" loss is unbalanced towards Chaos.

300 For an Castle Archer, and if the chaos player is stupid enough to let his units die, that would be 200 lost. With that being said, the effectiveness of the castle archer no matter the stage of the game, more than makes up for it.



I'm sorry, I should've put that request differently.
Give me one situation in which the Chaos player does not play like a lemon, and the Shield wall is still more effective than attacking.

I was giving an example with order vs order. Well, let's see, if you have the Speartons just a tiny bit being the wall(Yes, I said wall the first time) and the Juggerknight's charge will have no affect on the Speartons, while the Speartons are open to use shield-bash and stun them, then eat their faces(I'm a fan of zombies). WHY LEMONS AGAIN.



Your example lacks validity in that no decent Chaos player would giant spam when they have a whole arsenal of offensive units to use. Not to mention that the giants would simply stroll past your Speartons, meaning that they'd be better off attacking the giants.
Walls, They can't go past the walls. The Speartons are only meant to be there sitting back for a few moments, while the Magikill & Archidons do some damage.

MiamiBigAL
12-23-2012, 04:23 AM
Almost every ability, that needs to be used, is situational.
No, they should be CLOSE to equal, which they are.

So, your two swords, vs three crawlers. How fast would your miners die from three crawlers? In one post, you said and I quote:

So, since there is now 3 crawlers, and 2 swordwrath, the crawlers now have to attack the swordwrath? Personally, I'd prefer the enemy start with two crawlers, my miners now have a small chance.

(1) No, they should not be CLOSE to equal. They should be equal. The units cost the same amount. Either completely equal, or Order needs an advantage somewhere else that makes up for the Spearton's deficit. Fixing abilities that no one bothers researching because they are SHIT is probably the best solution.

If you knew anything about this game, you'd know a spearton who is on shield wall mode just gets ignored, which in turn renders shield bash useless. And it is extremely easy to dodge shield bash as well. Juggerknights can do it at will with very little micro, so even when engaging shield bash is totally useless.

(2) The whole point of my post, if you bothered to read, was to have equal armies and equal miners. Two swords cost 300. Three crawlers cost 300. They are an equal value and typically equal power army. You can achieve this with 600 gold but not 500 gold, which also equals both sides getting two miners to start.

I never said I fixed the crawler/miner harassment problem with this solution. It would just fix the imbalanced miner start, which is the biggest problem. Miner harassment gives chaos an economic edge, rather than an economic landslide like the miner imbalance.

The extra miners would also reduce the proportionate effect of the tower, which chaos will inevitably win with its other imbalances. But at least Order has more of a fighting chance than before.

PsychoticCheez
12-23-2012, 07:19 AM
Something that gives you a massive advantage over your opponent(s) with little effort on your part.

In the context of this game I like to think there are two types of advantages.
1. Winning (you'd call these "Massive") advantages, which mean that with enough effort a win can be FORCED.
2. Slight advantages, which puts pressure on the opponent to do something, however balance (via either a stalemate in defence, or a suitable counter-attack) can be restored with appropriate effort from the opponent. Slight advantages do nothing more than open doors for the opponent to make mistakes. They do not win games themselves.

The question is whether or not a 5% Juggerknight is a massive/winning advantage or just a slight advantage. Obviously we must take the rest of your definition, "with little effort on your part".
Therefore it could be interpreted that you think the Juggerknight > Spearton difference is justifiable because:

1. An extra 5% Juggerknight is only a slight advantage, and is not capable of affecting the outcome of an early-mid game battle. (You imply this below).


It was an example. An Archidon could most likely kill the Juggerknight at how low the health would be after an encounter with a Spearton. The point of me saying that, is because you continue to say, the Juggerknight is massively overpowered compared to the Spearton, and yet, as I just said, 1-2(maybe 3-4) shots from an Archidon could save the Spearton, and kill the Juggerknight. Also, I don't research rage.


Normally, they are building up a larger army at their base, or at the middle, while also building up their economy. It's a poker thing, why show everyone your entire hand, when you can show them one card, and let them guess?

See, now you're assuming the Order player is a lemon(why a lemon? Why not a lime or an apple?), he could easily have the Swordwrath attack once, run back, attack again, run back, or hand back for a while OR attack and when he gets too injured, retreat it?



a) It doesn't take much imagination to see how an extra Juggerknight, even at 5% health, could be utilized. You say that Order has suitable counters, but those counters cost gold and time, and each of Order's responses can be efficiently nullified by Chaos' arsenal, whichever they choose to use.
b) Chaos' crawlers make them more suitable to scout. They can gain the information first, as they have the option of engage the swordwrath. And if they so choose to, that swordwrath must garrison to retain full efficiency, whilst the crawler is rapidly back in action.

OR

2. The massive/winning advantage this 5% Juggerknight has is justifiable because it requires more than "little effort on your part" to utilize.
a) This is a clear imbalance, as no side should have to lose if they have made no mistakes.




The effective range of the shield bash, is I believe(could be mistaken) just higher than that of the attacking range of the spearton. I believe you and I define defensive differently. I define it as, sit back and wait in a fortified position. Water against the rocks if you will. For this, the spearton not only serves this purpose, he does it painfully well.

As someone said, Chaos plays aggressively, order plays defensively. Chaos is to attack, while Order is to counter.


As was said, the shield bash attack is easily dodged.
The Juggerknights' charge can mimic the shield bash, and they can follow up quickly with strikes. Their charge effect also gives a significantly higher chance of hitting, and has little chance of being dodged.
The Speartons' shield bash leaves the Speartons still immobile, and they leave their "shield wall" animation too slow to be able to mimic the Juggerknights' damage efficiency, I.e.

In the case of the Spearton's ability, the support lines fire at the stunned units.
In the case of the Juggerknights' ability, the support lines fire at the stunned units, as well as the Juggerknights being able to contribute to this cause.



300 For an Castle Archer, and if the chaos player is stupid enough to let his units die, that would be 200 lost. With that being said, the effectiveness of the castle archer no matter the stage of the game, more than makes up for it.


Wrong. For the purposes of this debate, can we assume that both players are playing as optimally as possible? It's useless to say races are balanced if they are not being utilized to their full potential in the examples given as evidence.

Take your Castle Archer example. A Chaos player playing optimally would not keep on attacking. And a Chaos player would utilize the Castle Archer's disadvantages.
Optimal players will not look at the Castle Archer and cower (well, at least not in early game). They'll look at it and think, "That's another 2 miners I can afford to build", because I know he's wasted 300 gold on something that can't touch them.




I was giving an example with order vs order. Well, let's see, if you have the Speartons just a tiny bit being the wall(Yes, I said wall the first time) and the Juggerknight's charge will have no affect on the Speartons, while the Speartons are open to use shield-bash and stun them, then eat their faces(I'm a fan of zombies). WHY LEMONS AGAIN.

Walls, They can't go past the walls. The Speartons are only meant to be there sitting back for a few moments, while the Magikill & Archidons do some damage.

This is not an example of people playing optimally.

If you saw Speartons performing a shield wall just behind a wall, you would not charge them. The wall would get harassment via long range units, or Marrowkai.

Magikill are useless thanks to Medusa.

MiamiBigAL
12-23-2012, 12:34 PM
I think people misunderstand the snowballing effect of this game. A 5% advantage is not minimal, it is huge. A 1% advantage can also be huge.

To give an easy example. Imagine both players going for spearton/juggerknight in the beginning. What happens? The juggerknight starts to win, the spearton has to retreat. The juggerknight wins the tower.

Chaos, with its 5% advantage over the Spearton has now translated that advantage into a 50% economic advantage of chaos over order, which translates into both a massively bigger economy, which then translates into an extremely easy way of holding that tower advantage.

Chaos does not just win in this situation, it ends up dominating Order with its eyes closed while on a cigarette break.

You need to look at the big picture when you talk about balance. Work out what would actually happen...then you'll start seeing the huge imbalances more clearly. You can't just say "oh, just add a swordwrath in there and everything is fine". It does not work like that.

badplayer
12-23-2012, 01:52 PM
5% is huge? maybe uve never played another strategy game like starcraft?

my personal recommendation to fix spearton vs juggerknight would be decrease juggerknight hp by a bit. that way, spearton would win in an unmicroed battle and the juggerknight would be forced to retreat for a bit of hp if they wanted to kill the spearton. the spearton, at ~5% hp, would be more easily picked off than the juggerknight because it cant recover on the field and it would probably also retreat

300noob
12-25-2012, 05:42 AM
With 5% health left, a jugger can kill a non-rage swordwrath with no problem at all (don't talk about rage with swordwrath in this situation because rage is not something worth spend on unless you meet a giant spammer).
Castle archer? They do !@^@# when the enemy is out of range while consumed ya gold.
Crawler is a better option compare to swordwrath because their speed, cheap price, passive heal and easily mass.
Jugger charge vs spearton wall+bash? Jugger still win.



On a side note: What's with the off topic disscussions? How about making a thread purely for debate balance stuff?

PsychoticCheez
12-25-2012, 07:22 AM
Depending how you use the term, "off topic", it arguably isn't.

This thread was started because rage was what gave Order a fighting chance against Chaos. Rage is the surface problem.

The underlying problem was balance issues between Order and Chaos.
Although yes, a separate thread would be nice.

On the topic of rage, I genuinely believe it would be fair to maintain the 50/50 price, but to keep the rage ability prior to patch 1.31 (original speed, 6.5 second rage) ...with the exception that perhaps the speed increase could be in between what it currently is now, and what it was before.

I don't see how rage was defined as imbalanced when it takes a minute to research, as well as swordwrath being flimsy little creatures anyways.


I think the issue with Rage from the start was more so that rage itself was a bit IMBA, not so much the price of it.

The ability to rage run back to your base after taking tons of damage it way to strong and the rage itself seams to be a bit too fast and last a bit too long.

You know what else is way too strong? The ability to not have to run back to your base after taking tons of damage, and still be able to heal.

Sure, Order will end up getting an advantage in military strength if they could rage-run back to base.

However Chaos gains:

1. Economy
They win the tower, at least temporarily ...it depends how the game plays.
They can also force Order's miners to lose time, if they harrass them. After all, Order's troops are in the garrison.

2. Ground ...which equates to time.
When Order finishes recovering, Chaos has the option to run back to base, which is enough time for a few more Chaos troops to join the fray, restoring the balance of military strength.

3. Information
By harassing the miners and being close to Order's base, Chaos can see what Order decided to spend their resources on. See more swordwrath pouring out? Get bombers. See nothing? A Spearton must be building. Quick, get a Juggerknight!


This seems more like a balanced battle, with strengths and weaknesses. However rage is too weak at the moment and so the costs incurred in terms of time is too much, and the military strength gained is too little.

Let's not forget that it takes one minute to research rage, and that's not considering the fact that we had to research the mana to get rage. By then it may be too late.

Bladed Fire
12-25-2012, 05:11 PM
Depending how you use the term, "off topic", it arguably isn't.

This thread was started because rage was what gave Order a fighting chance against Chaos. Rage is the surface problem.

The underlying problem was balance issues between Order and Chaos.
Although yes, a separate thread would be nice.

On the topic of rage, I genuinely believe it would be fair to maintain the 50/50 price, but to keep the rage ability prior to patch 1.31 (original speed, 6.5 second rage) ...with the exception that perhaps the speed increase could be in between what it currently is now, and what it was before.

I don't see how rage was defined as imbalanced when it takes a minute to research, as well as swordwrath being flimsy little creatures anyways.



You know what else is way too strong? The ability to not have to run back to your base after taking tons of damage, and still be able to heal.

Sure, Order will end up getting an advantage in military strength if they could rage-run back to base.

However Chaos gains:

1. Economy
They win the tower, at least temporarily ...it depends how the game plays.
They can also force Order's miners to lose time, if they harrass them. After all, Order's troops are in the garrison.

2. Ground ...which equates to time.
When Order finishes recovering, Chaos has the option to run back to base, which is enough time for a few more Chaos troops to join the fray, restoring the balance of military strength.

3. Information
By harassing the miners and being close to Order's base, Chaos can see what Order decided to spend their resources on. See more swordwrath pouring out? Get bombers. See nothing? A Spearton must be building. Quick, get a Juggerknight!


This seems more like a balanced battle, with strengths and weaknesses. However rage is too weak at the moment and so the costs incurred in terms of time is too much, and the military strength gained is too little.

Let's not forget that it takes one minute to research rage, and that's not considering the fact that we had to research the mana to get rage. By then it may be too late.
Rage is the backbone of Order while Poison Guts are the backbone of Chaos. Agree?

DragonFrost
12-25-2012, 05:24 PM
Not always. Some people never use swords/deads, thus their abilities would not be the backbone of their empire (p.s. can someone tell me why it's called backbone?), and if bought, would just be some random useless thing they bought (foolishly or by accident)

MiamiBigAL
12-26-2012, 05:47 AM
What he means by backbone is that they are essential abilities that you have to research and build your army around, rather than just situational abilities.

And on that note, they are not the backbone. Merics with poison heal sort of nullify poison guts. And rage is just overly nerfed now. The damage suffered from using rage is not compensated for when you are chasing a retreating army. Rage just isn't really worth it anymore after the nerf. It can be used to catch a hurt crawler off guard, but that's about it. Once you rage, you have to retreat your whole army, which is a huge negative.

MiamiBigAL
12-26-2012, 06:07 AM
5% is huge? maybe uve never played another strategy game like starcraft?

my personal recommendation to fix spearton vs juggerknight would be decrease juggerknight hp by a bit. that way, spearton would win in an unmicroed battle and the juggerknight would be forced to retreat for a bit of hp if they wanted to kill the spearton. the spearton, at ~5% hp, would be more easily picked off than the juggerknight because it cant recover on the field and it would probably also retreat

Yes, I have. I understand that you probably haven't bothered to read my post in its full context.

I talked about a 5% advantage of one unit over another, which TRANSLATES into a 50% economic advantage. And THAT is huge. I am arguing about the effect of the 5%, not the 5% itself.

From your second sentence, you're obviously also suggesting spearton needs a buff or juggerknight a nerf.