PDA

View Full Version : Chaos is it fair?



BuddyLucky2
01-01-2013, 07:05 PM
Crawlers- Auto heal+Speed allows them to kill swordwrath gradually while they can attack then heal over and over again which can help the chaos player easily capture the center in the begining, giving the chaos players the bonuses of the center rock first(in early game) which usually leads to the purchase of AUTO HEALING ghost which can challenge your economy.

Bomber-ABSOLUTLY UNACCEPTABLE!,... AOE DAMAGE PLUS THE USUALLY PROTECTON OF CRAWLERS MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR ARCHERS OR SWORDS TO EXIST WITHOUT A WALL...WHICH BY THE WAY HAS BEEN NERFED IN 1.59
But what if you seperate your units?
Seperating units may seem like a solution to bombers but it has another factor: Spliting of units (Melee) will minimize the "Most Possible Damage" that the Swordwrath can do as if they were bunched together so now crawlers would be free to kill swordwrath 1 by 1 as long as they are "protected" by the threat of bombers...so bombers make crawlers strong as crawlers makes bombers strong
But what if you get a spearton to absorb all the bombs?: By the time you get a spearton...your enemy would probably have a Juggerknight AND ECLIPSOR plus the enemy bombs would just wait till your weak archers are exposed by trying to kill the Eclipsor or if you get an alba the bombs would manually explode it. ^("OP")


Juggerknight-Ok but again because of the free auto heal he beats a spearton in a 1 on 1 skirmish

Dead-Ok but health could be decreased a little bit due to the fact it's armored.

Eclipsors-Faster and more deadly than a normal archer and has the healing curse of chaos. Ranged unit comparison: Archer<Dead, Archer<Eclipsors, Allbowcross<Dead, Allbowcross>Eclipsors (To simplify, a Dead can beat both of orders ranged units (excluding giants) and Eclipsors can kill Archers but a Allbowcross can (Suprisingly) kill a Eclipsor)
+NEW INFO: HAS THE ABILITY TO AVOID GROUND UNITS, HIGH DAMAGE, ORDER'S ONLY REASONABLE COUNTER IS ARCHERS WHICH BTFW ARE KILLED EASILY BY EVERYTHING! ALBOWTROSS IS TOO EXPENSIVE AND SLOW (BASICALLY USELESS) WHEN VERSING THESE MASSING/CHEAP ECLIPSORS :(

Marrowkai-Has a spell that is impossible to dodge once it's casted AND it renders your unit uncontrollable for a brief period but by the time you get control of your unit again...he's killed by the enemy army + Marrowkai has hell fists which preforms multiple instantes of AOE Damage. Order players have the Meric as the replacement for MarrowMoron (Unit 4) Which is the ability to heal units for order and it may be a instant heal/cure but consider the fact that it can only heal one unit at a time while all chaos units heal at the same time. (Example: Lets say I use blast (Magikill) on 12 Eclipsors and it hits all of them what they can do is retreat (Fast speed) and heal up quickly while if 12 Allbowcross where put in the same situation (and lets just say you can't garrison) you would have to wait for the meric to heal all of them one at a time which is a major disadvantage (Meric<<<<<<<<Auto heal)

Gaint-AOE Damage but not ranged=Fair

Medusa-Probably the worst thing to ever see when you even dare to use a powerful unit like her counterpart the Magikill(Medusa Talking To Magikill:"When you try to poison my men which they can recover from easily, I'll be there, If you try to blow them up or electrocute them, I will be there to kill you instantly and make the players that buy you powerless"(laughing)

In other words: Most chaos players will keep medusa close to their army so if you want to use the expensive unit like the Magikill(This units purpose is to cause damage to multiple units at once with his AOE attacks) to Damage the enemy army...Medusa just kills him before he can open his mouth and Recharges her insta-kill attack. So now you lose a 500g 500m unit while the chaos player just needs to be a little patient.

So Basically, Medusa is just another way of the chaos player to say: "Ok I recommend you don't buy Magikill because I will just kill him and by now since I have the center (because chaos players usually get the center easily) I would suggest being careful about the auto healing ghost giants I am sending and if you want the center back beware of the auto healing 6 Eclipsors, 2 Medusas, 2 Marrowkai, 2 Giants, and the 6 JuggerKnights I have" (Chaos Player has a happy troll face on as he is speaking)

Order's "insta-kill" is the ninja but the truth is that the ninja with shinobi 2 is not really a insta-kill against Chaos (Chaos units not killed instantly by shinobi 2: Juggerknight, Dead, Eclipsors can't be hit, Marrowkai and Medusa survive with about a bar of health and then counter the ninja by using their spells, barely damages the giants)

Chaos' "insta-kill" can kill all units except the giants but still takes about 1/4 of a fully grown giant's health.(+IT IS A RANGED INSTA-KILL)

So is Chaos really fair? My arguement I believe says No!
+Think from an Order Player...We Order players have to be skilled because we have to micro bombers with archers while dodging the Eclipsors
And Juggs can chase our archers, Then we have to chase YOUR crawlers with swords till 225g (3bombs) Come and kill at least 2 units (2swords=25g profit loss) (2 archers from just 2 bombers is a 450G! Profit Loss)

Then we deal with the Ghost and Winga Combo and Chaos' Archers (Eclipsor) are safe in the skys where our Swords, Spears, Ninjas can't attack
While we have archers on the ground (THAT ARE WEAKER THEN THE ANIMATED CELLS THERE MADE OF) That are killed by any of chaos' units
Plus when the enemy has a single juggerknight and 2 bombs with 3 eclipsors...He could just run past the speartons, blast the archers and screw the speartons on the ground...That are shot by Eclipsors they CAN'T rush and kill because they are in the sky

However, I had an idea to fix this...Maybe a code that activates when it is a Order vs. Chaos game...Where eclipsors are put on the ground and bombers are "splashed maxed" to only hit 3 units since there so cheap
http://www.fileize.com/files/2ccf6a17/1cd/36912130.jpg

3FFA
01-01-2013, 07:08 PM
So, can someone list the weaknesses of Chaos to counter this? I'm not experienced enough with the Chaos units to do a list of the weaknesses of each Chaos unit.

BuddyLucky2
01-01-2013, 07:21 PM
Truthfully I am searching for answers on how to beat chaos players but because of the auto heal and the insta-killing medusa it is hard...

asdfstick
01-01-2013, 08:04 PM
I have Chaos so I know some ways to kill them. Chaos isn't as powerful as it seems.
Crawlers: alone weak numbers strong so crawlers are weak in early game. So 1 spearton for every 4-5 crawlers
Bombers: single use so have 1 unit tanking damage from them.
Juggerknights: Flying units
Eclipsor: albowtross or 2 archidons will do
Deads: spearton for tanking and merics for healing and curing. Note deads cost mana you can't get them as early as you do archidons
Marrowkia: 2 speartons or 1 shadowrath with shinobi lvl 2
Medusa: 4-5 swordwraths( medusa's poison won't kill them in time)
Giant: 1 swordwrath for dodging and attacking the giant or 1 E giant

Do you realize how long it takes for a juggerknight with 1 bar of health left to heal full health?
Takes a while

Edit: btw chaos is fair

DragonFrost
01-01-2013, 08:12 PM
Bombers are not forced to blow up that 1 meat shield unit.. They can run past and blow up the vunerable army :)
And jugger knight weakness wtf all melee units (except chaos giant) ae weak to albows or wingadons...
Your comparing them like just a single army. Ex. What idiot would send only one medusa to attack.. They would have a whole army. If those 4-5 swords tried to attack the medusa, they are pwned by real army.. Same with basically everything I believe
P.s if jugger heals so slow, send him back to garrison >.>

BuddyLucky2
01-01-2013, 08:29 PM
Yeah thats what I'm saying most chaos players have Medusa behine their whole army and most armies consist of Deads, Juggerknights, Eclipsors, Giants, and about 2 Marrowkai units. My question is how you could beat a combination of all these units when you keep having problems as order(Example: Chaos Players can camp your castle out of range of castle archer and then they can harass your economy by attacking then retreating over and over again + They get ghost quickly because their economy is thriving while your miners are picked at from the auto healing army (even if it is a very slow auto heal)

DragonFrost
01-01-2013, 08:36 PM
Well if SOMEHOW you had the middle and better economical edge, I have a THEORY (that probably won't work :D) that might win that combo? Mass ninjas and enough albows to PWN his eclipsors. First, assassinate marrokai (and medusa if any), retreat, finish cool down and heal, assassinate all deads and if any extra cloaked ninja attack the giants. Retreat. Coak kill giants. Send all albows, focus fire on eclipsors, once all head PWN juggers.
Just a theory, although I doubt the ninjas could survive after killing the marrowkai.

Azxc
01-02-2013, 02:46 AM
Take out those marrowkai and medusa with ninjas (you may need FIVE of them)
Use the Order ultimate weapon---- Enslaved Giants!!! lol jk, just one or two of them
They are really good units so many suck guys mass giants

Some chaos players complain that Order has too many advantages, so make good use of them
In my opinion, chaos is quite weak if you mass ninjas

Tecness2
01-02-2013, 03:07 AM
Order has the Magikill.
Magikill has the Electric Wall. The Fireball. & The Poison spray, all ranged, AOE weapons.

Chaos has the Medusa & Skeleton Mage.
They have the Stone Face, Poison Pool, Reap & Hell fists. 2/4 are 1 enemy uses. The poison pool requires enemies to be in almost physical contact with Medusa to use, and the hell fists do very little damage and can be dodged.

Now, while the Medusa & Skeleton Mage specialize in, killing single, strong units, like Giants, Merics, or Magikill, they are weak against a lot of small units, like Swordwrath, Archidons, Speartons, Miners.




Now, you're thinking, "But Tec! That's when he brings in bombers!"
Well, pull back a bit, and have your Archidons take them out. If they have all these casting units, with say a giant, and several Deads/Wingadons & Juggerknigts, they will be close, if not already at, to the population limit, which means a very limited number of bombers, which the Archidons two shot.



A single Shinobi can kill a Medusa, but it would be quiet a risk, it would take a fully upgraded cloak hit, plus 3-5 standard strikes to kill her.
It takes TWO Shinobi to kill a Skeleton Mage, and one needs to attack after they both cloak-attack it.
I do agree, this needs to be changed slightly.



Now what to do about the Juggerknight? Well that's easy. Let's say, it's 4 vs 4, Speartons Vs Juggerknights. You didn't research Shield wall or Shield-bash, so you have 150+150 left over. You'll get to 300-200 faster than the Chaos player would get to 450-50. So, you can get a Monk out, and guess what! You win that fight. Even if the Juggerknights has charge. Even if they aim at your Monk, you'll still be able to deal significant damage to them while they kill it. Acceptable losses.
BUT, I will request a slight...change in the healing process next time I speak to CrazyJay &/Or Brock. Note: No guarantees it will be done.


Now, everyone go to sleep. It's 5:06 am EST.

Azxc
01-02-2013, 03:13 AM
lol it is 6:00 pm here, lets go to sleep lol!

Yeah, Chaos spells specialize in single target and I love it!!!!
I just don't get a credit card ._.

As Tec complains, chaos almost stand no chance with massing ninjas
sshhh... I know how to counter it :P

DragonFrost
01-02-2013, 08:40 AM
Massing ninjas? Obviously wingadons :D

BuddyLucky2
01-02-2013, 03:03 PM
Thanks Tec ;)

Maybe its because I am use to using the Magikill all the time, but I really should start using weapons instead of "Magic in the air" XD

Also about Meric vs. Auto Heal: The Meric has a short range heal so your ONLY ability (person to heal) has to be put on the front lines where they can be killed so 1 aspect of auto heal is that it can't be destroyed like merics (Unless you just made personification Auto Heal unit for chaos where all you have to do is kill the words "Auto Heal" to stop their "Healer")

Bottom Line: Why does chaos have a healer that can't be stopped/killed and we do + why do Order players have to pay 300g 200m 3population for every vulnerable "healer" we want?

I rather have a unit called "The Simplifiyer" that can "Simplify" an enemy unit by turning them to simple elements(Carbon,Hydrogen,Oxygen and other elements that make up cells) instead of a Meric(Instant kill>heal)

We need a ranged instant kill and I'm sorry but ninjas just don't work for me

But it is just an opinion but for now I will attempt using "normal units" :)

BuddyLucky2
01-02-2013, 04:12 PM
Also Another thought what if we get rid of anything that heals and replace it with a upgrade called "Magic Mitosis" with 3 levels for both sides and this could be a purchased ability and it would have a
Amount of health regenerated/per set time Data value(example 5 health points for every 5 seconds) so this would allow order to have a instant kill unit and both sides have a equal heal.

However again this is just an opinion for those who disagree :)

_Ai_
01-02-2013, 11:20 PM
Also Another thought what if we get rid of anything that heals and replace it with a upgrade called "Magic Mitosis" with 3 levels for both sides and this could be a purchased ability and it would have a
Amount of health regenerated/per set time Data value(example 5 health points for every 5 seconds) so this would allow order to have a instant kill unit and both sides have a equal heal.

However again this is just an opinion for those who disagree :)

I don't think it's good. For example, sacrificing miners from both side. 1 miner from each side. It'll be endless (with or without miner hustle)

DragonFrost
01-03-2013, 08:55 AM
Huh why are you sacrificing miners?

BuddyLucky2
01-03-2013, 08:13 PM
Dear Aiman

This could work because of the variation of damage values of each unit, however I can see the problems your talking about (Example: 1 on 1 battles of the same unit would reach a stalemate) but people can buy different variations of multiple units that can kill faster than the auto heal can repair.

So there are two possibilities I thought of to solve this problem: A)Make "Magic Mitosis" a very weak auto heal (even level 3) or make it very expensive
B)Get rid of all healing "Specialties" (Garrison is the only way to heal)

Or if you have a solution please post :)
I need Ideas XD

Tecness2
01-03-2013, 08:18 PM
There may be a change coming up in terms of the chaos passive healing ability.
So ya'll calm down.
It will be less effective for crawlers, but more effective for everything else.
It may also affect garrison healing.
Note: This may not actually happen.
Also, Buddy, Get on SE.

77Row
01-03-2013, 08:50 PM
Its really the auto-heal that's the problem, most people who use chaos do 1 miner 3 crawlers, they attack with crawlers, if they order player calls out a spearton, the spearton will probably to some damage but the chaos player will back off to build up his crawlers, once that happens they will be able to kill the spearton. If that happens then game-over.

Tecness2
01-03-2013, 08:55 PM
Its really the auto-heal that's the problem, most people who use chaos do 1 miner 3 crawlers, they attack with crawlers, if they order player calls out a spearton, the spearton will probably to some damage but the chaos player will back off to build up his crawlers, once that happens they will be able to kill the spearton. If that happens then game-over.
Or you know, a castle archer.

uberman
01-03-2013, 10:04 PM
There may be a change coming up in terms of the chaos passive healing ability.
So ya'll calm down.
It will be less effective for crawlers, but more effective for everything else.
It may also affect garrison healing.
Note: This may not actually happen.
Also, Buddy, Get on SE.

That sounds promising. One main problem with chaos healing at the moment (as a chaos player) is that it takes so long to heal a gaint, even in garrison. If you use your meat shield as a shield, then he's out for ages healing up. If your attacking, and take him back to garison, by the time he walks there, heals and comes back, several minutes have passed, while you are without use of him. If you keep him in the field, but not attacking, again, several minutes have passed before he heals.
I'd be all for healing crawlers slower and other units faster.

_Ai_
01-04-2013, 01:23 AM
How about when engaging in battle, passive healing is disabled. AND,OR, (choose) After escaping from battle, 5 seconds for healing to start.

stickman311
01-04-2013, 01:28 AM
How about when engaging in battle, passive healing is disabled. AND,OR, (choose) After escaping from battle, 5 seconds for healing to start.

Passive healing disabled when engaging? Now how do you know that a unit is engaging in battle and that would be just sad for chaos.

BuddyLucky2
01-07-2013, 05:37 PM
GET RID OF THE MARROWMORONS :mad: ;)

77Row
01-07-2013, 05:55 PM
Or you know, a castle archer.

yeah, so that they can get ahead in economy, and spam juggerknights :D

BuddyLucky2
03-22-2013, 06:57 PM
SO NOW TELL ME EVERONE HOW THE **** DO YOU BEAT CHAOS BECAUSE APPARENTLY ITS NOT OP AND I'M AN IDIOT PATHETIC MAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

KrayZStick
03-22-2013, 06:58 PM
Lol buddy, u rage. Use swords at start and speartons with archers after.

jli
03-22-2013, 07:45 PM
Buddy, I used to hate Chaos for those exact same reasons; almost every unit has a Chaos counter that is pretty darn intimidating:
swords + archers MAULED BY bombers
speartons MAULED BY juggerknights (this actually isn't true anymore. Uberman and I tested this the other day and speartons actually won more)
albows MAULED BY eclipsors
giants MAULED BY reaper
magikill MAULED BY medusa (this one pissed me off the most)
ninjas are completely WEAK and USELESS (this one too)

So I thought Chaos was OP as hell. Crawlers can kite swords, bombers obliterate swords and archers, eclipsors are like archers, but flying and more deadly, medusa = forget magikill, juggs = screw your speartons.

But then I realized: in order to execute all those things at once to counter an Order army, you need some serious micro skills. In reality, if you just let the units attack without micro, Chaos is really, REALLY screwed.

DragonFrost
03-22-2013, 07:53 PM
Well, if you fight a noob chaos player who cant use reaper properly (like me...), then just mass giants.

Azxc
03-22-2013, 11:26 PM
I have no idea how to counter bombers, they run pass your meat shields....
And straightly run to your miners
BOMB BOMB *%&( Your 4 miners are dead

That seriously affect your economy, make you lose

BuddyLucky2
03-23-2013, 12:18 AM
However Exxmorphing, If you are to go defensive for EVEN 1 SECOND!,...Your enemy will notice...then just start getting the advanced units (Juggs and Eclips)...With control of the center (Ghost+ Better Economy)
Now as I'm an Idiot...I will need your help...Describe to me or give me a replay(REPLAY FROM ONLY YOU) that proves your defensive theory works.

If you think you have the answer than prove it please because it is going to take a LOT to convince me that chaos is fair....

Also Azxc Supports this :D
CAUSE ITS TRUE!

@Jli it is true that micro is an important role...But in reality...A bigger factor that the OP bombs can effect is Macro and Economy
Bottom Line...You CAN'T MICRO BOMBERS! (As long as a crawler protects from archidon arrows...)

blu3blitz
03-23-2013, 12:58 AM
Hey I remember the discussion on the zenith site that started all this, yo I think order is preddy balanced ya know, chaos is useless for those who can't use it to its fullest potency

uberman
03-23-2013, 02:12 AM
However Exxmorphing,

I think you miss the point; a single miner wall neutralizes completly the threat of bombers.

BuddyLucky2
03-23-2013, 02:51 AM
However uberman, wall are only good defense for miners(With the nerf) so if you want to cap the center you need to expose your archers to the bombers because the enemy(what chaos player does not have a Eclipsor?) will most likely have an eclipsor so since the walls can't protect the archers from bombs (Most likely bombers are defended from arrows) the Eclipsors of chaos are even more free to rule the skys with the threat of bombers :(

uberman
03-23-2013, 06:58 AM
However uberman, wall are only good defense for miners(With the nerf) so if you want to cap the center you need to expose your archers to the bombers because the enemy(what chaos player does not have a Eclipsor?) will most likely have an eclipsor so since the walls can't protect the archers from bombs (Most likely bombers are defended from arrows) the Eclipsors of chaos are even more free to rule the skys with the threat of bombers :(

Yes, archers behind a wall are invulnerable to bombs and can pick them off at will. Handy for order, but hardly a balanced situation - if order can build a wall close to center his invulnerable archers can pick off what ever units chaos has - which is OP for order. Put a mage with elecrtic wall behind with them just to be extra sure of invulnerability while slaughtering.
So the nerf - they cant do that any more removes the situation which is completly OP for order.
Do you really think its unfair to stop the order ability to cheaply be invulerable while within striking distance of the tower, limitting it to 'only' near base?


Lets say you have some resourse spent on archers and spears, micro them so the spears protect the archers and you'll clear the sky of his wings - easily - because for equal resourses or population archers plus spears is greater than juggs and wings. Was before the archers were made even cheaper.

Sombody could say;
unbuffed swords > crawlers. Buffed with a cheap buff swords PWN crawlers. So 'lets make the swords even cheaper' is the reverse of moving towards balance. Equal resources or equal population or equal construction time, what ever way you measure, swords were stronger before the recent cost decrease. The crawlers should have been buffed to balance them, not the swords.

Somebody could say;
archers and spears greater than juggs and wings BASED ON equal resources or equal population (so there are equal numbers of tanks, but more archers than fliers) before the change. So decreasing the cost of archers was the reverse of moving towards equality.

Sombody could also say;
For the role of Tanking spears are better than Juggs, juggs being the more offensive unit, its reasonable that juggs are better in offence, and spears better in defence.
So moving to the point where they are equal in offence, but the spear is still better in defence is, again, the opposite of equalizing.

Or somebody could say;
marrow is the hard counter to E-giant - because with perfect micro two marrow can neutralize an E-giant for ever. As appropriate for a larger investemnt in population and resources by chaos, 2 marrow should be stroinger than one giant.
But then the reaper got a nerf. Now, despite being more expensive in both resources and population and requiring perfect micro, 2 marrow cant kill a single Egiant, despite being the chaos hard counter. Strange idea of balance. Again.
FFS.

300noob
03-23-2013, 07:42 PM
Yes, archers behind a wall are invulnerable to bombs and can pick them off at will. Handy for order, but hardly a balanced situation - if order can build a wall close to center his invulnerable archers can pick off what ever units chaos has - which is OP for order. Put a mage with elecrtic wall behind with them just to be extra sure of invulnerability while slaughtering.
So the nerf - they cant do that any more removes the situation which is completly OP for order.
Do you really think its unfair to stop the order ability to cheaply be invulerable while within striking distance of the tower, limitting it to 'only' near base?


Lets say you have some resourse spent on archers and spears, micro them so the spears protect the archers and you'll clear the sky of his wings - easily - because for equal resourses or population archers plus spears is greater than juggs and wings. Was before the archers were made even cheaper.

Sombody could say;
unbuffed swords > crawlers. Buffed with a cheap buff swords PWN crawlers. So 'lets make the swords even cheaper' is the reverse of moving towards balance. Equal resources or equal population or equal construction time, what ever way you measure, swords were stronger before the recent cost decrease. The crawlers should have been buffed to balance them, not the swords.

Somebody could say;
archers and spears greater than juggs and wings BASED ON equal resources or equal population (so there are equal numbers of tanks, but more archers than fliers) before the change. So decreasing the cost of archers was the reverse of moving towards equality.

Sombody could also say;
For the role of Tanking spears are better than Juggs, juggs being the more offensive unit, its reasonable that juggs are better in offence, and spears better in defence.
So moving to the point where they are equal in offence, but the spear is still better in defence is, again, the opposite of equalizing.

Or somebody could say;
marrow is the hard counter to E-giant - because with perfect micro two marrow can neutralize an E-giant for ever. As appropriate for a larger investemnt in population and resources by chaos, 2 marrow should be stroinger than one giant.
But then the reaper got a nerf. Now, despite being more expensive in both resources and population and requiring perfect micro, 2 marrow cant kill a single Egiant, despite being the chaos hard counter. Strange idea of balance. Again.
FFS.
then why don't u just freaking say make all chaos units free to be balance ....rofl

DragonFrost
03-23-2013, 08:08 PM
Giant mass if one of chaos's worst nightmares. WHAT TO DO?

jli
03-23-2013, 08:12 PM
Ok, but let's think about these offensive weapons that Chaos has:
bombers: AOE
medusa.petrify: single target
medusa.venum_flux: AOE, but must be VERY CLOSE TO medusa
marrow.reaper: single target
marrow.hell_fists: AOE, but VERY WEAK

Now let's look at the units:
Crawler: great in mobs, but easily blown up by magikill (seriously. it's so much fun to blow up crawlers.)
Bomber: AOE damage that makes it UBER OP when used well
Jugger: A solid infantry unit
Dead: A very slow ranged unit that can poison, but does low damage
Wingidon: Fast ranged unit, flying, but greater pop cost than archers
Giant: Good AOE tank, but can only hit three units and not ranged

So. I haven't countered chaos much, but just looking at these descriptions makes me think that without bombers, Chaos is screwed against the masses. They don't have such a great CC unit like the magikill, and every unit they have can be countered by mobs. Chaos spells are powerful, but usually not AOE.

What I'm saying is: sword + archer mass + a magikill to blow up dem bombers OR amazing dodging/kiting skills = Chaos doesn't really have much of a counter.
I would say that if anything, Chaos is UP.

Of course, I'm also a 1600, so you might want to get someone else's opinion.

DragonFrost
03-23-2013, 08:14 PM
Ok, but let's think about these offensive weapons that Chaos has:
bombers: AOE
medusa.petrify: single target
medusa.venum_flux: AOE, but must be VERY CLOSE TO medusa
marrow.reaper: single target
marrow.hell_fists: AOE, but VERY WEAK

Now let's look at the units:
Crawler: great in mobs, but easily blown up by magikill (seriously. it's so much fun to blow up crawlers.)
Bomber: AOE damage that makes it UBER OP when used well
Jugger: A solid infantry unit
Dead: A very slow ranged unit that can poison, but does low damage
Wingidon: Fast ranged unit, flying, but greater pop cost than archers
Giant: Good AOE tank, but can only hit three units and not ranged

So. I haven't countered chaos much, but just looking at these descriptions makes me think that without bombers, Chaos is screwed against the masses. They don't have such a great CC unit like the magikill, and every unit they have can be countered by mobs. Chaos spells are powerful, but usually not AOE.

What I'm saying is: sword + archer mass + a magikill to blow up dem bombers OR amazing dodging/kiting skills = Chaos doesn't really have much of a counter.
I would say that if anything, Chaos is UP.

Of course, I'm also a 1600, so you might want to get someone else's opinion.

Blah. My strategy (which involves mass bombers) gets pwned by giant and meric mass. The bombers are too weak against giants.

KrayZStick
03-23-2013, 08:15 PM
Well, obv not doing enough, seeing how you let them mass giants in the first place. :p

DragonFrost
03-23-2013, 08:20 PM
The thing was, this guy was a master TURTLER...

KrayZStick
03-23-2013, 08:24 PM
:/ You let him turtle in the first place. I never face giant spammers anymore. But then again, my rating range isn't that far. :(

uberman
03-24-2013, 12:02 AM
then why don't u just freaking say make all chaos units free to be balance ....rofl

Because I am attempting to present my opinion in the form of a reasonable case with supporting evidence based upon an interpretation of facts.
Try it some time.

BuddyLucky2
03-24-2013, 02:05 AM
Uberman i still feel like there are major factors "Hidden" in this conversation
Like the Factor of how Archers (About 6) 2 Speartons(2700G 100M) could fail against just 2 juggs and 2 flyers (Juggs run past spears and pick of the archers quickly with the support of the flyers and then once the so easily killed Archers are gone Speartons are screwed...and so is your game...

Unfortunatly, 1 thing could shut me up...but it would never happen...
Patch: Units now HAVE TO ATTACK FRONTLINE UNITS (Units in front of whole army) *Cough* chaos HAS TO DEAL WITH OUR TANKY SPEARTONS JUST NOT RUN FOR THE GROUND ARCHERS
If our speartons (and other order ground units) can't run after your support units (Eclipsors) then why do we order players have to deal with your Juggs, Bombs, Crawlers, etc that have the ABILITY to kill our support(Archers)?
Note: Don't just tell me that we have Albowtross...because even albas will not work well against eclipsors

WyzDM
03-24-2013, 02:58 AM
This settles it. I'm making a Order vs Chaos compilation, while taking any chaos user challenges. My Order is ready.

Bladed Fire
03-24-2013, 03:03 AM
Wow. Now it comes to the end.

uberman
03-24-2013, 06:24 AM
Uberman i still feel like there are major factors "Hidden" in this conversation
Like the Factor of how Archers (About 6) 2 Speartons(2700G 100M) could fail against just 2 juggs and 2 flyers (Juggs run past spears and pick of the archers quickly with the support of the flyers and then once the so easily killed Archers are gone Speartons are screwed...and so is your game...


Because probably the order player just watched while the juggers killed his archers (while typing 'OP Chaos' or 'pay to win' or some other comment <joke>) - and didnt bother to kite or simply move. Simply pulling the fast moving archers backwards to draw the fight away from the slower moving wings, and this would allow the spears to hit the juggers while they chase (and fail to catch) the faster archers. The slow attack and short attack range of the jugger means the faster attacking longer range spears can strike them as they try hit the archers, who can easily avoid the slow jugg attacks. If the juggs stop chasing the kiting archer to fight the spears, then order has the advantage of cover from the 6 archer s - 6 archers and 2 spears vs 2 juggers until the wings catch up. Repeat by pulling the fight back again, or leave the spears to kill the weakened juggers while the 6 archer kill the two wings. Order will win, inevitably with no major micro required, (simply stepping archers back aint no major micro) dont you see that?
Put in a wall and the archers can simply run back as above, finishing behind the wall.
6 archers behind a wall, and 2 spears will slaughter the 2 juggs and 2 wings - obviously.

Seems to me, in either case (with or without a wall) the order should be able wipe the entire chaos force without taking any losses, if the chaos player is attacking. The only way the chaos would not lose is by not attacking the retreating forces.



Unfortunatly, 1 thing could shut me up...but it would never happen...
Patch: Units now HAVE TO ATTACK FRONTLINE UNITS (Units in front of whole army) *Cough* chaos HAS TO DEAL WITH OUR TANKY SPEARTONS JUST NOT RUN FOR THE GROUND ARCHERS
If our speartons (and other order ground units) can't run after your support units (Eclipsors) then why do we order players have to deal with your Juggs, Bombs, Crawlers, etc that have the ABILITY to kill our support(Archers)?
Note: Don't just tell me that we have Albowtross...because even albas will not work well against eclipsors

Xate
03-24-2013, 07:30 AM
Uh... Did you know that they can use Juggers as meatshield? How to counter? Also, when your spears are attacking juggers, the wingadons can attack your spears right?

DragonFrost
03-24-2013, 08:30 AM
This settles it. I'm making a Order vs Chaos compilation, while taking any chaos user challenges. My Order is ready.

I challenge you, if I don't lag. I'm going to prove to buddy and chaotic that they are balanced D:

ShadowyWhisper
03-24-2013, 08:35 AM
Wait, they're balanced? Cool. So I'm guessing Chaos got an extra unit or something right?

sarcasm*

jli
03-24-2013, 09:16 AM
Uberman i still feel like there are major factors "Hidden" in this conversation
Like the Factor of how Archers (About 6) 2 Speartons(2700G 100M) could fail against just 2 juggs and 2 flyers (Juggs run past spears and pick of the archers quickly with the support of the flyers and then once the so easily killed Archers are gone Speartons are screwed...and so is your game...

Unfortunatly, 1 thing could shut me up...but it would never happen...
Patch: Units now HAVE TO ATTACK FRONTLINE UNITS (Units in front of whole army) *Cough* chaos HAS TO DEAL WITH OUR TANKY SPEARTONS JUST NOT RUN FOR THE GROUND ARCHERS
If our speartons (and other order ground units) can't run after your support units (Eclipsors) then why do we order players have to deal with your Juggs, Bombs, Crawlers, etc that have the ABILITY to kill our support(Archers)?
Note: Don't just tell me that we have Albowtross...because even albas will not work well against eclipsors

Err, Buddy, even without spearton tanks, 6 archers could easily take out 2 Eclipsors (with negligible casualties). So just kite. Although if I were playing Order I would be quite confused as to how I got in that scenario because I mass swords. XD

BuddyLucky2
03-26-2013, 03:59 PM
Jli what about bombers?

BuddyLucky2
03-28-2013, 04:43 AM
Now this is a Poll
Support for Chaos being unfair:
*CaptainCorps2- Actually admitted Order Sucks
*Azxc- hates them bombers
*Me- I really just can't micro them bombers+Crawlers :/
*Aiman- His Poor Albas can't compete with those Auto-Healing Eclipsors
*Many others you will see in the results of this Poll

...Wyz we know your magical...But still chaos is OP

_Ai_
03-28-2013, 04:56 AM
*Aiman- His Poor Albas can't compete with those Auto-Healing Eclipsors

I have to agree. I can never match those damned Eclipsors. They are like, my worst nightmares.

WyzDM
03-28-2013, 05:35 AM
I just beat Galeforce as Order for the player tourney.


So...

DragonFrost
03-28-2013, 07:14 AM
I just beat Galeforce as Order for the player tourney.


So...

But you're magical, that's so unfair lol

I am supporting that chaos is unfair. It's easier to use (at leat I can beat the same person with chaos but not order), and modour keeps screwing me with bombers :/

<^Random^>
03-28-2013, 07:32 AM
What's Chaos? I don't think there's a unit called Medusa.

BuddyLucky2
03-28-2013, 10:46 AM
Yup another sarcastic person^
If you REALLY don't know, Medusa is a Instant-Kill UNIT (Turns units to stone) and can spray poison
.................................................. ........................^
There...
I
I
I
V

<^Random^>
03-28-2013, 11:05 AM
I know THAT from the Greek myths, but is there a unit called Medusa?

WyzDM
03-28-2013, 11:13 AM
You can't fight chaos with your order build. That's the first problem.

The next is as Order, you have to play closer to your base. Simple as that. If you go out too aggressively and make smaller unit builds, holding te center with air units or even trying to tank with speartons, you'll get out matched against bombers, wingdoms, and juggernauts. What do you do? You have to counter build.

At the start, I go out semi-aggresively to prevent an early capture of the middle, but I will fall back to a wall when I start to see bombers and get plagued by cats. From there, it's all macro. Because he's forced to press into your base, it's a matter of economy management while providing some defensive measures. Recognize the builds he is using by what units he's sending to the base. From there, make whatever it is you need to push hm back. One unit I will always set my goal for is an Enslaved Giant. It's difficult to map when I can savethe gold for it, but when I get it right I can keep pressure, fall back, then push forward. Only 1-2 is enough sometimes to claim the center. Just don't take too long, because eliminated the chaos giant spawn can be difficult if he's giving constant units to hold center.

THEFORCE
03-28-2013, 01:32 PM
I think chaos is just costs money, because it looks cool and they need money to improve game and stuff.

Chaos has no advances on Order. It's all about skill...

WyzDM
03-28-2013, 01:53 PM
I think chaos is just costs money, because it looks cool and they need money to improve game and stuff.

Chaos has no advances on Order. It's all about skill...

There are some things I think can change to make it slightly more favorable for Order, but right now it's not too bad.

KrayZStick
03-28-2013, 02:09 PM
Well, it doesn't take long to learn how to use Chaos... but perfecting it like CC, Wyz, MBA, etc... Yea...
But then again, I believe that Order is actually the empire that's harder to learn and master... Chaos is.... too easy(ish).

<^Random^>
03-28-2013, 02:16 PM
No.

asdfstick
03-28-2013, 06:55 PM
Both Empires are evenly balanced. Tec explained it somewhere in these forums. I noticed some people are having trouble with eclipsors, so I made a vid on how to counter the eclipsor mass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQL-kSKHp2o&feature=youtu.be
What i'm trying to say is have speartons with shield wall with ARCHIDONS not albows, shoot behind the speartons and target the eclipsors
.

BuddyLucky2
03-28-2013, 07:27 PM
Ha <^Random^> banned in a day...
Thank you Admin that banned him
Also your vote in my opinion is voided since your banned
And PLEASE Just stop annoying people on the forums man its not cool :(

@asdfstick,
Crazy, Kookoo, Wacked, Nuts, Chaotic Lunatics (<---Just Kidding Chaos Players) just ignore speartons and easily bomb-and-crawl the archers :/

KrayZStick
03-28-2013, 07:30 PM
You do realize that random is shadowy?
Damn, 66 post in one day. Good thing I reported :p

Back on topic: Chaos gets gold more often from the center, if captured. I think that they should balance it out, and make it so it's the same frequency as Order(if so, don't make Order as frequent as Chaos, because then Order would be more complex, seeing how if one person gets tower, they insta-win).

asdfstick
03-28-2013, 07:35 PM
You do realize that random is shadowy?
Damn, 66 post in one day. Good thing I reported :p

Back on topic: Chaos gets gold more often from the center, if captured. I think that they should balance it out, and make it so it's the same frequency as Order(if so, don't make Order as frequent as Chaos, because then Order would be more complex, seeing how if one person gets tower, they insta-win).

That is true. They either need to have the tower, under Chaos hands, be the same time to get +20 gold as Order or Order get the same time that Chaos has.

GokuXx
03-28-2013, 07:44 PM
Buddy relax...
Chaos and Order are pretty much even. it does not matter that Chaos has auto-regeneration, they are still evenly matched. To be a good Chaos user you need a lot of skill and need to perfect micro and macro. Also if you make a mistake with Chaos you could lose. You need to think about the units you chose. So relax Chaos is not even overpowered. You just need to learn how to counter them.

KrayZStick
03-28-2013, 07:46 PM
Wait, I have a question. Why do Enslaved Miners have regeneration? They are miners, that are enslaved... no need for regen. And can Giants regen too? If so, why can't a Enslaved Giant regen? D: If not, ignore the last question.

_Ai_
03-29-2013, 01:01 AM
Chaos is not completely unfair though. Thats why I didnt vote yet.

stickman311
03-29-2013, 01:12 AM
Chaos is not completely unfair though. Thats why I didnt vote yet.

Ever see top 1 is order? (Exclude xvdaemonicxv)

_Ai_
03-29-2013, 01:37 AM
Ever see top 1 is order? (Exclude xvdaemonicxv)

Yeah. Wyzdm.

stickman311
03-29-2013, 01:40 AM
Yeah. Wyzdm.

HE USES both. Ever seen one without chaos?

_Ai_
03-29-2013, 01:54 AM
HE USES both. Ever seen one without chaos?

MiamiBigAl.

stickman311
03-29-2013, 01:58 AM
MiamiBigAl.

I can't stop laughing how you( connie girl) likes to be something not worthy ....

WheresMyCheetos
03-29-2013, 07:02 AM
Wait, I have a question. Why do Enslaved Miners have regeneration? They are miners, that are enslaved... no need for regen. And can Giants regen too? If so, why can't a Enslaved Giant regen? D: If not, ignore the last question.

I understand what your saying but, you are suppose to kill miners in 1 go, not attack and leave.
And giants take like 10 minuts (not exagerating) to heal to full.

stickman311
03-29-2013, 07:15 AM
I understand what your saying but, you are suppose to kill miners in 1 go, not attack and leave.
And giants take like 10 minuts (not exagerating) to heal to full.

let's say u have 1 spear and then u need 5 shots to kill one enslaved miner. Then, when u have 4 spears together, u just need 4. Isn't that unfair

DragonFrost
03-29-2013, 07:40 AM
HE USES both. Ever seen one without chaos?


MiamiBigAl.

Was Miami ever rank 1 before he got chaos? I can't remember clearly.

Here's mine: FrozenFury and Kilean.

stickman311
03-29-2013, 08:01 AM
Was Miami ever rank 1 before he got chaos? I can't remember clearly.

Here's mine: FrozenFury and Kilean.

oh, when WYZDM CAME

DragonFrost
03-29-2013, 08:04 AM
oh, when WYZDM CAME

What about Wyzdm?

BuddyLucky2
03-30-2013, 12:16 AM
Tec if this poll gets more unfair votes will you try to ask CrazyJay to make some changes to make Chaos fair? (Or if CrazyJay views this himself, it would be appreciated) :)

Azxc
03-30-2013, 12:26 AM
Tec if this poll gets more unfair votes will you try to ask CrazyJay to make some changes to make Chaos fair? (Or if CrazyJay views this himself, it would be appreciated) :)

Hum.... that never happens

WheresMyCheetos
03-30-2013, 03:03 PM
Buddy add another poll:

Chaos is slightly better then order.
ALot of people will vote that but you only gave totally agaisnt or tottaly with

asdfstick
03-30-2013, 03:19 PM
Buddy add another poll:

Chaos is slightly better then order.
ALot of people will vote that but you only gave totally agaisnt or tottaly with

That is true. You do need skill if you want to be good with Chaos. Seriously, it took me a while to get back on the top 100.

BuddyLucky2
03-31-2013, 01:38 AM
@Azxc- Tec does have the ability to ask and Crazyjay has Magic and Skill to change the game...BUT, CrazyJay does have the right to say "Well this is my game...I'll do what i want with it"
But in reality, Your probably right.

Also if your neutral on the subject, don't vote... If you slightly agree or disagree just post what you think is unfair

The reason i only put two choices on the poll is because chaos just seems to have some OP factors that leads to a whole chain of OP things
Like how OP bombers make Eclipsors OP by eliminating the threat of archers
+Juggs and Crawlers protect bombs
In other words, The OPness is caused by a chain reaction of many different factors

@CrazyJay: YOU NEED TO HIRE THIS MAN AS A FULL TIME ADMIN!
V
>Tec<
^^^^
EVEN IF HE IS A TOTAL STRANGER! :D jk (BUT SERIOUSLY THINK ABOUT)
*Age 18 - Means he is old enough
*Leader of a clan - Means he is awesome enough (Oblivion Starts Playing)V
*He Knows "Baninonis - Way of the Ban Hammer, and is deticated to teaching his policies to all Spammers through Divine Interwebsion or as you will know it
"GOING TO THE SPAMMERS HOUSES AND BREAKING THERE SOURCE OF INTERNET CONNECTION WITH HIS BAN HAMMER" oops wrong script
*Buddy the Mage switches scripts while walking on the battlefield and talking about Tecness* XD
"Sorry that was my blooper script" *He continues*
"or as you will know it..., IP Ban(Online War)" XD

How can you beat the way of the ban hammer? :D

WheresMyCheetos
03-31-2013, 09:34 AM
Yea but you could of done.

Chaos is fair with order

Chaos is unfair

Order is slightly better then chaos

Chaos slightly better then order

GokuXx
03-31-2013, 05:37 PM
Ever see top 1 is order? (Exclude xvdaemonicxv)

Yes Crimshock.

DragonFrost
03-31-2013, 05:41 PM
That's old, GOKU.

BuddyLucky2
04-01-2013, 12:14 AM
This is off topic but,
Does anyone think i should get rid of the "Creators Clan Ideas" in my signature?
or is there a possibilty that the 5(Labeled below) of them might use one of my Ideas?
(CrazyJay, Brock(emon), Winston Zhang, Eli and stone)

@WheresMyCheetos: "You might want to get out of that car...Mages are great at hijacking and planting bombs...hehe all i need to activate is a single word(Fulmanate)" :Evil: (jk)

_Ai_
04-01-2013, 01:42 AM
Yes you should, no they wont.

ShadowGeneralChaos
04-01-2013, 06:30 AM
Oh man, i have played agianst Chaos 2 times and win!!!
I think my enemy was an amateur (rating 1351)

But well, I think Chaos is fair. It has good and bad options like order.

WheresMyCheetos
04-01-2013, 08:42 AM
This is off topic but,
Does anyone think i should get rid of the "Creators Clan Ideas" in my signature?
or is there a possibilty that the 5(Labeled below) of them might use one of my Ideas?
(CrazyJay, Brock(emon), Winston Zhang, Eli and stone)

@WheresMyCheetos: "You might want to get out of that car...Mages are great at hijacking and planting bombs...hehe all i need to activate is a single word(Fulmanate)" :Evil: (jk)

Yea but buddy I have hired a shadowrath with shinobi level 2 to drive.
He jumps out a car and killls buddy.
Anyways on topic finally someone else who thinks chaos is even

ShadowGeneralChaos
04-01-2013, 09:02 AM
Yea but buddy I have hired a shadowrath with shinobi level 2 to drive.
He jumps out a car and killls buddy.
Anyways on topic finally someone else who thinks chaos is even

You are really funny :)

WheresMyCheetos
04-01-2013, 02:51 PM
JUst wanted to post this here

www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay892866&version=1.59

Try it but better and you will win :)

Also why would I hire a shadowrath when I am a shadowrath

BuddyLucky2
04-01-2013, 09:14 PM
YOU JUST WON BY 4 BOMBS HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO FEEL?
CHAOS OP RAWR
I have to wait for 500g and 400m just to use the first blast!!!
If i could just buy spell units(Bomber, Poison Splatter Bomber, Electric Bomber) instead of the three melee units I COULD DOMINATE!!!
But only chaos has early spell units (Bombers) :(

@WheresMyCheetos: YOUR NOT A SHADOWRATH...YOU BETRAYED THEM Mr. CHAOS!!!!!!!!!

_Ai_
04-02-2013, 01:36 AM
Speaking of bombers and shadows, can a bomber hit a ninja in shinobi, if exploded manually? Test it anyone.

ShadowGeneralChaos
04-02-2013, 02:24 AM
Speaking of bombers and shadows, can a bomber hit a ninja in shinobi, if exploded manually? Test it anyone.

Well, no It cant. :)
luckily

uberman
04-02-2013, 05:17 AM
Another factor, often only understood by chaos players and overlooked by order players;

TL-DR; Chaos really struggles on very short stages. BUT this is the point; there are two very very short maps (vs only one very long map), and they seem to come up far too regularly. Therefore, in a significant proportion of games, chaos is at a huge disadvantage.

Swords are stronger than crawlers, but have the same construction time. Its true that they can hit and run, and its true they can get an advantage of numbers. But on a short stage, neither of these things apply; its not the slight difference in price but the construction time that limits the number of crawlers in the first minute of the game.
If order keeps sending very early swords, the chaos player doesnt have advantage of numbers (construction time is the same) and doesnt have space to hit and run. So swords simply kill the crawlers before there are enough of them to fight back effectively, and if the crawlers try kite, swords ignore them and kill miners!

Only Godlike micro can save the crawlers from being wiped by early sword rush. Once he gets rage, crawlers are totally inefective, unless in a huge number advantage.

Without godlike micro, as a 1900-2000 ranked player I would consistently lose to people with upto 200+ less ranking - and lose a shed load of ranking.

I have improved to near godlike micro, and now can hold my own with crawlers against swords to a degree, and dont automatically lose to lower ranked players who rush swords on short maps. But against roughly equal ranked players rushing swords on a short stage, I am screwed.

My first three games today were all short maps, all against lower ranked players.
Actually, due to massive amount of working on my micro, I managed to win all 3, but I got only 2 or 3 ranking from them all - had I lost one, I'd have lost shed loads.
Thats not OP for Chaos, thats a major pain in the ass.

Can any of you anti-chaos folks point to a situation where a good (OK I am not brilliant, but I got chaos 2k and 1950 ish) order player can consitently be beaten by a chaos player of significantly lower rank? Where an equally ranked player will almost automatically win?

Having got more micro skill, I can see how Gale and WyzDM can defend on short stages, but you cant judge chaos by considering the very very best players only. It is simply unfair that a player must be significantly better and very very good with micro to avoid being rolled over.

jli
04-02-2013, 06:39 AM
Another factor, often only understood by chaos players and overlooked by order players;

TL-DR; Chaos really struggles on very short stages. BUT this is the point; there are two very very short maps (vs only one very long map), and they seem to come up far too regularly. Therefore, in a significant proportion of games, chaos is at a huge disadvantage.

Swords are stronger than crawlers, but have the same construction time. Its true that they can hit and run, and its true they can get an advantage of numbers. But on a short stage, neither of these things apply; its not the slight difference in price but the construction time that limits the number of crawlers in the first minute of the game.
If order keeps sending very early swords, the chaos player doesnt have advantage of numbers (construction time is the same) and doesnt have space to hit and run. So swords simply kill the crawlers before there are enough of them to fight back effectively, and if the crawlers try kite, swords ignore them and kill miners!

Only Godlike micro can save the crawlers from being wiped by early sword rush. Once he gets rage, crawlers are totally inefective, unless in a huge number advantage.

Without godlike micro, as a 1900-2000 ranked player I would consistently lose to people with upto 200+ less ranking - and lose a shed load of ranking.

I have improved to near godlike micro, and now can hold my own with crawlers against swords to a degree, and dont automatically lose to lower ranked players who rush swords on short maps. But against roughly equal ranked players rushing swords on a short stage, I am screwed.

My first three games today were all short maps, all against lower ranked players.
Actually, due to massive amount of working on my micro, I managed to win all 3, but I got only 2 or 3 ranking from them all - had I lost one, I'd have lost shed loads.
Thats not OP for Chaos, thats a major pain in the ass.

Can any of you anti-chaos folks point to a situation where a good (OK I am not brilliant, but I got chaos 2k and 1950 ish) order player can consitently be beaten by a chaos player of significantly lower rank? Where an equally ranked player will almost automatically win?

Having got more micro skill, I can see how Gale and WyzDM can defend on short stages, but you cant judge chaos by considering the very very best players only. It is simply unfair that a player must be significantly better and very very good with micro to avoid being rolled over.

You have a point, but you only consider crawlers vs. swords. Bombers are quite a frightening force and can be used to thin out the numbers. The devs did something to the swords, 2 bombers and BOOM, swordwrath dies.

stickman311
04-02-2013, 06:44 AM
Yes you should, no they wont.


Another factor, often only understood by chaos players and overlooked by order players;

TL-DR; Chaos really struggles on very short stages. BUT this is the point; there are two very very short maps (vs only one very long map), and they seem to come up far too regularly. Therefore, in a significant proportion of games, chaos is at a huge disadvantage.

Swords are stronger than crawlers, but have the same construction time. Its true that they can hit and run, and its true they can get an advantage of numbers. But on a short stage, neither of these things apply; its not the slight difference in price but the construction time that limits the number of crawlers in the first minute of the game.
If order keeps sending very early swords, the chaos player doesnt have advantage of numbers (construction time is the same) and doesnt have space to hit and run. So swords simply kill the crawlers before there are enough of them to fight back effectively, and if the crawlers try kite, swords ignore them and kill miners!

Only Godlike micro can save the crawlers from being wiped by early sword rush. Once he gets rage, crawlers are totally inefective, unless in a huge number advantage.

Without godlike micro, as a 1900-2000 ranked player I would consistently lose to people with upto 200+ less ranking - and lose a shed load of ranking.

I have improved to near godlike micro, and now can hold my own with crawlers against swords to a degree, and dont automatically lose to lower ranked players who rush swords on short maps. But against roughly equal ranked players rushing swords on a short stage, I am screwed.

My first three games today were all short maps, all against lower ranked players.
Actually, due to massive amount of working on my micro, I managed to win all 3, but I got only 2 or 3 ranking from them all - had I lost one, I'd have lost shed loads.
Thats not OP for Chaos, thats a major pain in the ass.

Can any of you anti-chaos folks point to a situation where a good (OK I am not brilliant, but I got chaos 2k and 1950 ish) order player can consitently be beaten by a chaos player of significantly lower rank? Where an equally ranked player will almost automatically win?

Having got more micro skill, I can see how Gale and WyzDM can defend on short stages, but you cant judge chaos by considering the very very best players only. It is simply unfair that a player must be significantly better and very very good with micro to avoid being rolled over.

If u can never beat some players( if no one can) then we can put the blame

uberman
04-02-2013, 09:36 AM
You have a point, but you only consider crawlers vs. swords. Bombers are quite a frightening force and can be used to thin out the numbers. The devs did something to the swords, 2 bombers and BOOM, swordwrath dies.

Its not two bombers, no. It is actually 3 bombers.
It used to take 4 bombs to reduce them to almost zero and 5 to outright kill swords.

The problem with short maps is that if you want to go bombers, you have to do so at a time you cant afford it economically. Two bombers costs 150, which is a miner.

BuddyLucky2
04-02-2013, 11:44 AM
Short maps are paradise for bombers as you can get a 100% chance to win if you just bomb the weak miners before wall can even be researched :/

uberman
04-02-2013, 12:13 PM
Short maps are paradise for bombers as you can get a 100% chance to win if you just bomb the weak miners before wall can even be researched :/

Hrmm, I may just have to try that plan :)

BuddyLucky2
04-02-2013, 01:04 PM
I LOVE HATING CHAOS!!!
CRAZYJAY HOW COULD YOU HAVE THOUGHT UP SUCH A DISASTROUS EMPIRE!??? jk

@Uberman: I JUST GAVE YOU THE WINNING STRATEGY FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

@GokuXX: Sorry hating chaos is my thing BECAUSE IT SUCKS!!! :mad:

GokuXx
04-02-2013, 01:05 PM
Buddy would you stop complaining about chaos??? it gets a bit annoying.....

WheresMyCheetos
04-02-2013, 01:45 PM
Buddy goku is right. Dont rage all the time.
Heard the saying if you can't beat them, join them

uberman
04-02-2013, 02:51 PM
Lets consider castle dead - crappy as they are, on a small stage it may be the only way to fend off swords without godlike micro of cats, compared to castle archer.

Against the basic unit, a sword, hitting it with poison is almost as good as dead. But it will kill him after he and his friends have done their duty and killed a miner or two.
Compare to castle archer against crawlers; not only will a castle archer kill a crawler before it can kill a miner, but it will actually kill 4 at once before all 4 can do enough damage to kill a miner.

So equal comparison based on gold, (ignoring the construction time which means only 3 crawlers could actually be made at the same time as the 3 early swords early in the game) -
3 swords (375 gold) attack chaos with castle dead - one sword will die to poison and shitty damage, and one miner is dead, but two survive, to continue killing miners while one other sword is made and adds to the fight - this is exactly how swords over run chaos - as fast as chaos can kill them, new ones are spawning and reaching the fight.
4 crawlers attack order with castle archer - all crawlers dead and probably not even half way down the miners life. Meanwhile one crawler is spawned and will die if it is foolish enough to come close.

Yes, this ignores the defending units, its just comparing base defences against an attacking force.
But it gets even more OP for order when the units are included.

Look;

Consider a budget of about 400 gold, one side spending on offence, the other defence.
so 3 swords (375 gold) attack chaos with 1 crawler (100) and castle dead (300) total 400 gold, vs 4 crawlers (400) attack order with 1 swords (125) and castle dead (300) total 425 gold.

Do I have to point out that order attacks; in a couple of hits from 3 swords the crawler is dead, one sword is poisoned and taken a little damage, he will die - but not before raping the miners with his buddies. acceptable losses to order, and new swords can be spawned and added to keep the pressure up - because the slow kill rate of poison means only one sword at a time dies.
Chaos attacks; all crawlers are hit by the castle archer, and will be dead before killing the sword or a miner. Zero losses to order, complete wipe to chaos. All chaos has is say a single crawler spawned, who cant attack.

But bombs! I hear them cry.
If order has 2 miners on a gold mining position, chaos can at best kill 2 miners (300 gold) with 3 bombs (225 gold) assuming order does nothing (such as withdraw miners before bombs reach) and assuming the castle archer miss the bombs. A slight win to chaos striking two or slight loss if killing only one - but then chaos is defenceless, having not taken out any offensive units, and bombs being one shot units.
Lets give chaos 6 bombs, and kill two groups of miners, 4 miners, thats bad for order and will get 'OP chaos F'king bombs' in chat - but thats the bolt shot by chaos, he's now defenceless against the counter attack. However in the 6x8=48 seconds required to build all those bombs, plus time to travel across the map, order has been mining and will not be out of the game. Either they have used money on other miners, or are holding enough money to build miners or enough swords to take out the chaos miners. Probably both some miners left and a swords force.
As long as order has only 1 miner per gold, or two miners grouped, it is a physical immpossibilty for chaos to wipe out more than 2 miners with 3 bombs (and 3 bombs is the minimum to kill outright a miner).


Consider mid game or end game, castle dead's poison is simply removed by a meric - its only point being it stops the meric healing for a single heal. The single target damage is besically insignificant in an assult run, even if it targets an easy to kill unit like an albow, at worst one will die if order makes no attempt to save it.
Ignore the meric removing poison or healing the damage done, with an attacking force of just 4 or more speartons, they can almost totally disregard the castle dead as the spears do serious damage to miners or statue before the first one dies.
But castle archers are doing significantly more damage to a whole group of attacking units. Even a group of 4 Juggs cant stand it for long, and will take along time to regenerate the damage taken if they flee. The damage of a single (or heaven forbid 2) castle archers is very significant to the chaos forces attacking order.
If its wings being hit then you can easily lose 4 wings to a single castle archer before getting out of range.

So, again, castle dead is insignificant in effect, castle archer is far FAR better.

IMO
either add splash damage to castle dead, or remove it from castle archer.
As it is, its not even close to fair.

Yes, castle dead did get a buff, and are now just simply ineffective compared to highly effective archer, where as before the buff, they were a complete farse. Saddly the increase in cost, so well done to castle archer was also applied to castle dead, who need a buff not a nerf.

TL DR; move along I cant help you.

WheresMyCheetos
04-02-2013, 02:55 PM
Dont remove splash, deads should be able to hit 2 at a time then :)

Also has anyone considered what nerfing/buffing will do to order vs order mtachs, someone will say with order so strong speartons giants suck, I want chaos
BAM annoying new complaints!!!

Also Chaos has to be a little better then order in some way, or else CJ will lose alot of members

asdfstick
04-02-2013, 04:16 PM
1 thing i'll accept is nerfing the eclipsor's speed. They're faster than an albowtross and can kill retreating wounded albows.

GokuXx
04-02-2013, 07:27 PM
1 thing i'll accept is nerfing the eclipsor's speed. They're faster than an albowtross and can kill retreating wounded albows.


##Why would you nerf the Eclipsor speed?? If you do that then nerf the allbow and take away it's ability to shoot fire bow and the 2nd ability to get more stronger.

asdfstick
04-02-2013, 07:29 PM
##Why would you nerf the Eclipsor speed?? If you do that then nerf the allbow and take away it's ability to shoot fire bow and the 2nd ability to get more stronger.

It's just a suggestion.

WheresMyCheetos
04-02-2013, 07:32 PM
Hmmm I'll be ok if they nerf medusa back to 500 mana cause magikill are useless.

GokuXx
04-02-2013, 07:35 PM
Hmmm I'll be ok if they nerf medusa back to 500 mana cause magikill are useless.

## Not even that. Kills are not useless. They are flexible and can beat up units pretty badly.

asdfstick
04-02-2013, 07:38 PM
## Not even that. Kills are not useless. They are flexible and can beat up units pretty badly.

I wonder if their backs ever break :/
It'll be all like vene- OH MY BACK*dies* Oh noes our magikill is dead! *Bunch of crawlers come*
Why not buff the albow to have the same speed as an eclispor?

WheresMyCheetos
04-02-2013, 07:42 PM
No that's bad. Albow are stronger have ability have armor. Just fot an extra 50

mooseontheloose
04-03-2013, 12:10 AM
(replying to thread)
no. just no. i've only ever beaten chaos players that mass bombers....and wing thingys.

_Ai_
04-03-2013, 12:26 AM
How about a nerf for eclipsors...and give them back, but you have to research for it.

ShadowGeneralChaos
04-03-2013, 03:16 AM
i hate BOMBERS!!! Bombers here bombers there...

uberman
04-03-2013, 06:16 AM
Dont remove splash, deads should be able to hit 2 at a time then :)


How many does castle dead hit at once (I think 4 at once right)? Would that be hit causing damage and poison to two at once?



Also has anyone considered what nerfing/buffing will do to order vs order mtachs, someone will say with order so strong speartons giants suck, I want chaos
BAM annoying new complaints!!!


Yes, changes to order vs chaos matches will also affect order vs order, if its a change made to order (such as removing splash damage), or, will affect chaos vs chaos if its a change to chaos (such as adding splash damage).




Also Chaos has to be a little better then order in some way, or else CJ will lose alot of members

Thats a fact which I agree with - some think its a crime to say chaos should be a little better than order, but the fact is that this does not mean it need not be 'pay to win' where a poor chaos player always or easily beats a higher ability order, but as it stands its quite often the exact reverse - a lower ranked order player can easily beat a higher ranked chaos player as I mentioned on a short map with swords.

Bladed Fire
04-03-2013, 06:20 AM
How about bombers could only hit 2 enemies and no flying units please? If not increase its price and training time.

DragonFrost
04-03-2013, 07:04 AM
How about bombers could only hit 2 enemies and no flying units please? If not increase its price and training time.

Cough... I WOULD NEVER BUY BOMBERS AGAIN IF THIS HAPPENED!!

BuddyLucky2
04-03-2013, 11:27 AM
I GOT IT...Make Eclipsor speed a researched ability

@CrazyJay if you really love the Magikill you will find a way to stop them from being "Wall-Potatos" Seriously the wall is literally THEIR LIFE OR DEATH!!!
The Day where Mages can be like Medusa and Marrowkai (<---These 2 don't need walls and are still ok against ninjas and medusa vs. medusa is equal) is the day I'll be happy to use the mage again :D
Please CrazyJay!

WheresMyCheetos
04-03-2013, 01:49 PM
Buddy your not a magikill. They dont.complain like they have a life or yell at medusa. Magikill hqve 3 spells all very useful. Medusa uses stone and then she is useless for 27 seconds.

BuddyLucky2
04-03-2013, 02:12 PM
Buddy your not a magikill. They dont.complain like they have a life or yell at medusa. Magikill hqve 3 spells all very useful. Medusa uses stone and then she is useless for 27 seconds.

Yeah nobody is really there character but it is fun to make believe :P
Also that stone can kill the mage so Medusa>Mage

WheresMyCheetos
04-03-2013, 02:24 PM
Yea nobody really is XD well id be glad to fight you for help FoundMyCheetos 191

300noob
04-04-2013, 06:12 AM
the only way for a mage to survive from a medusa is get t the choppa. ehem.
mage need some sort of petrify resistance, could be a researchable ability

Gertywow
04-04-2013, 07:44 AM
They paid money for this massive pwnage, although other than playing Stick War 2, I have never encountered the Chaos in multiplayer, but all I can say is that these guys payed money for the Chaos permission, so yeah.

Usman
04-04-2013, 10:03 AM
the only way for a mage to survive from a medusa is get t the choppa. ehem.
mage need some sort of petrify resistance, could be a researchable ability

Magikill DOES NEED A FUCKING PETRIFY RESISTANCE!

DragonFrost
04-04-2013, 03:09 PM
That's a legit suggestion.

jerrytt
04-04-2013, 03:16 PM
They paid money for this massive pwnage, although other than playing Stick War 2, I have never encountered the Chaos in multiplayer, but all I can say is that these guys payed money for the Chaos permission, so yeah.

Your logic is flawed as it says on the very site that the creators did not want the game to be pay-to-win.

BuddyLucky2
04-04-2013, 05:18 PM
Magikill DOES NEED A FUCKING PETRIFY RESISTANCE!

Also a ninja resistance ;)

DragonFrost
04-04-2013, 05:28 PM
Oh man.. If they get ninja resistance I can't beat buddy xD

KrayZStick
04-04-2013, 05:48 PM
Ahem. No. lol, then it'd be like Medusa and Marrowkai, which I still don't understand why they have 4 health bars instead of 3 like Magikill, I'd say that's pretty OP :p Atleast nerf the Marrow to 3 bars, why a need for 4? I can understand it for Medusa...

WheresMyCheetos
04-04-2013, 07:29 PM
Its cause they do sports unlike grandpa run XD. I think magkill should have 4 HP fair everybody?

Invincitron
04-04-2013, 09:37 PM
Hi reader,

Well, I want to say the first one but we need skill to control it. I can't vote cause it's not completely unfair either.

.:Invincitron:.

BuddyLucky2
04-04-2013, 09:57 PM
Hi reader,

Well, I want to say the first one but we need skill to control it. I can't vote cause it's not completely unfair either.

.:Invincitron:.

K...
Then new rule: vote it unfair even if you think it is slightly unfair because if there is even ONE single unfair advantage you see that chaos has over order... it is technically unfair

Vote it fair IF you think Chaos has absolutly no unfair advantages over order (In other words if you think there should be no more "balancing" updates)


Also The Poll has 76% Chaos unfair (Excluding <^Random^>)
Just saying... :)

uberman
04-05-2013, 02:15 AM
K...
Then new rule: vote it unfair even if you think it is slightly unfair because if there is even ONE single unfair advantage you see that chaos has over order... it is technically unfair

Vote it fair IF you think Chaos has absolutly no unfair advantages over order (In other words if you think there should be no more "balancing" updates)


Also The Poll has 76% Chaos unfair (Excluding <^Random^>)
Just saying... :)

Just saying, the poll is not a fair poll - if you want to say chaos is OK, then the only option is 'Chaos is Fair...Its not like we need skill for it' which means the voter is saying no skill is required for chaos. I for one didn't vote because of this; I dont agree chaos needs no skill. I think with low skill chaos is very very weak in many situations.

Also Just saying, with a two option only poll the simple fact that there are more order players than chaos players (hence more voters) means its almost inevitable to get a 'clear win' for order in any order vs chaos poll. Doesnt necessarily mean anything apart from there are more order players/voters.

_Ai_
04-05-2013, 02:24 AM
Just saying, the poll is not a fair poll - if you want to say chaos is OK, then the only option is 'Chaos is Fair...Its not like we need skill for it' which means the voter is saying no skill is required for chaos. I for one didn't vote because of this; I dont agree chaos needs no skill. I think with low skill chaos is very very weak in many situations.

Also Just saying, with a two option only poll the simple fact that there are more order players than chaos players (hence more voters) means its almost inevitable to get a 'clear win' for order in any order vs chaos poll. Doesnt necessarily mean anything apart from there are more order players/voters.

Yes, exactly.

BuddyLucky2
04-05-2013, 04:07 AM
...well what do i do?
It was a joke the skill part... But in a way not AS much skill is required compared to order
SO DON'T TAKE ANYTHING AFTER "Chaos is Fair" SERIOUSLY
sorry should have said that was a joke in the option :(

Please Take the two options like as if they said

"Chaos is Fair and does not need a change"
"Chaos is Unfair and does need a change, nerf, something..."

_Ai_
04-05-2013, 04:17 AM
How about Chaos is slightly unfair, but no changes needed.

BuddyLucky2
04-05-2013, 08:30 AM
That would be part of the "Change needed" (Chaos unfair)
Really is this poll that unfair it should have been just a yes or no question but i was slightly pissed when making this poll....so sorry
PLEASE TAKE IT AS IF THE ANSWER CHOICES ONLY SAY "Yes"=Chaos Fair or "No"= Chaos Slightly or Heavily or Completely Unfair

uberman
04-05-2013, 09:27 AM
Yes, exactly.

Aiman, I wonder if you'd be interested in a vacant position as my henchman?
Conditions of service are terrible, as befits a henchman. Salary is negligible, of course.
<joke>

Jombloxx
04-05-2013, 09:29 AM
Since i'm a decent Chaos player i choose the fair opinion...simply because the creators know their work :).
Skip my post ~

BuddyLucky2
04-05-2013, 09:57 AM
Well i can take a test and know my work but it may not always be right
All i'm saying is that there could be some problems that make chaos OP :p

_Ai_
04-05-2013, 10:24 AM
Aiman, I wonder if you'd be interested in a vacant position as my henchman?
Conditions of service are terrible, as befits a henchman. Salary is negligible, of course.
<joke>

Why not? Dont forget to torture me everyday; I need it to build up stress and kill as I like.

DragonFrost
04-05-2013, 03:26 PM
Since i'm a decent Chaos player i choose the fair opinion...simply because the creators know their work :).
Skip my post ~

When did you get chaos.l.

BuddyLucky2
04-10-2013, 03:21 PM
POLL ENDS SOON GET YOUR VOTES IN!!!

WheresMyCheetos
04-10-2013, 03:27 PM
Everybody

WHat if I told you I will pay 1 second of gold member ship if you vote chaos

DragonFrost
04-10-2013, 04:24 PM
That lie!

petmuju
04-11-2013, 07:45 AM
Based on my knowledge, you need loads of poison to beat chaos since they don't have Merics. That is all.

jli
04-11-2013, 07:48 AM
Based on my knowledge, you need loads of poison to beat chaos since they don't have Merics. That is all.

They have passive cure.

THEFORCE
04-11-2013, 08:05 AM
They have passive cure.

You're right. But it will do some damage especially to low health units.

malbence
04-11-2013, 08:58 AM
wtf. do they at least have to buy passive cure?

ShadowGeneralChaos
04-11-2013, 09:15 AM
wtf. do they at least have to buy passive cure?


No, they dont( how unfair...)

Usman
04-11-2013, 09:16 AM
One thing I wanna say that it is no use to poison ANY chaos units bcz they heal up, even magikill poison spray is like hitting a ball to the giant, effects nothing, so in passive cure it should be disabled (posion)

ShadowGeneralChaos
04-11-2013, 09:22 AM
One thing I wanna say that it is no use to poison ANY chaos units bcz they heal up, even magikill poison spray is like hitting a ball to the giant, effects nothing, so in passive cure it should be disabled (posion)

yeah, your right

BuddyLucky2
04-11-2013, 12:39 PM
Well the results are in... and
76% say chaos is Slightly/Moderately/Heavily UnFair and needs Change
24% say Chaos is Fair and it is true skill is needed for it
So...Now i guess we just hope CrazyJay, Brock or Someone important sees the results and hopefully changes chaos
(Note: <^Random^> has been Excluded due to being Banned)

WheresMyCheetos
04-11-2013, 02:35 PM
Poison works well, it cancels out the passive heal and still deals a fair amount of damage.

Hey I would love to meric spam any day using chaos

BuddyLucky2
04-12-2013, 09:18 AM
http://www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay950374&version=1.60
Poor jli another victim of the OP, THREATENING, CASTLE ARCHER DODGE MASTERS....I PRESENT THE FU*KING BOMBER!!!
Its strategies like this that piss me off and show its OPness

kingkickass2013
04-12-2013, 09:45 AM
That saddened me, it also saddened me how quickly the bombers were gained and how quickly chaos's economy thrived.

The end music is also telling me how pathetic order is against chaos. (Except for those high level players like WyzDM but hes not human, instead a cyborg that knows everything about stick empires)

THEFORCE
04-12-2013, 09:50 AM
That saddened me, it also saddened me how quickly the bombers were gained and how quickly chaos's economy thrived.

The end music is also telling me how pathetic order is against chaos. (Except for those high level players like WyzDM but hes not human, instead a cyborg that knows everything about stick empires)

KrayZ can beat top chaos players ad also MiamiBigAL.

jli
04-12-2013, 09:59 AM
That saddened me, it also saddened me how quickly the bombers were gained and how quickly chaos's economy thrived.

The end music is also telling me how pathetic order is against chaos. (Except for those high level players like WyzDM but hes not human, instead a cyborg that knows everything about stick empires)

I know, right?
I tried to get walls but then I didn't have enough money to build any because I literally had no income.

BuddyLucky2
04-12-2013, 12:12 PM
Bombers Made Jli Broke and Jobless...

uberman
04-12-2013, 01:29 PM
http://www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay950374&version=1.60
Poor jli another victim of the OP, THREATENING, CASTLE ARCHER DODGE MASTERS....I PRESENT THE FU*KING BOMBER!!!
Its strategies like this that piss me off and show its OPness

Well the player logic was playing like a noobie - no offence to Jli.
The choas player had out 3 bombs, and they were after the miners - so why not take the two swords Logic had and attack the enemy miners?

Notice that the three bombs actually killed only one miner? chaos spent 3 x 75 = 225 gold to destroy a unit worth 150 gold.
Is there any way you can seriously call that scary and OP?

The only reason the order player lost was due to bad playing, IMO.
Fact; chaos killed one miner at the cost of 3 bombs - Oh err!
Fact; The order player could have done much more damage if he took his swords to attack the miners, and would still have his swords, while choas had nothing left!
Fact; The choas player only managed to get an economy up because the order player didnt attack his base.
Fact; instead of letting the 3 bombs chase his miners off mining gold (so order has no income, and chaos builds an economy), all Logic need do was make sure they were split one miner per gold (or statue) and then chaos bombs are not a threat, and order can keep producing new miners or units - Order will win if chaos keeps spending 225 to kill 150, and order puts his swords on the miners at the chaos base.

summary; it was bad play by the order player not OP by the chaos empire which won the game for chaos.

Saddly, the fact that you guys use that as an example of chaos being OP does nothing to suggest to me that the argument 'chaos is OP' has any basis in fact. Seems more like player inexperience to me, frankly.



P.S. Another point, why is the chaos turret more expensive then the order wall, despite being not as useful?

P.P.S. the poll is the thread was pointed out as being meaningless, many (like me) didnt vote due to the options. I doubt if CJ would give more than a glance at the results form such a poll. If you want a serious poll, then make a serious poll; one with propper options.

jli
04-12-2013, 10:30 PM
Well the player logic was playing like a noobie - no offence to Jli.
The choas player had out 3 bombs, and they were after the miners - so why not take the two swords Logic had and attack the enemy miners?

Notice that the three bombs actually killed only one miner? chaos spent 3 x 75 = 225 gold to destroy a unit worth 150 gold.
Is there any way you can seriously call that scary and OP?

The only reason the order player lost was due to bad playing, IMO.
Fact; chaos killed one miner at the cost of 3 bombs - Oh err!
Fact; The order player could have done much more damage if he took his swords to attack the miners, and would still have his swords, while choas had nothing left!
Fact; The choas player only managed to get an economy up because the order player didnt attack his base.
Fact; instead of letting the 3 bombs chase his miners off mining gold (so order has no income, and chaos builds an economy), all Logic need do was make sure they were split one miner per gold (or statue) and then chaos bombs are not a threat, and order can keep producing new miners or units - Order will win if chaos keeps spending 225 to kill 150, and order puts his swords on the miners at the chaos base.

summary; it was bad play by the order player not OP by the chaos empire which won the game for chaos.

Saddly, the fact that you guys use that as an example of chaos being OP does nothing to suggest to me that the argument 'chaos is OP' has any basis in fact. Seems more like player inexperience to me, frankly.

P.S. Another point, why is the chaos turret more expensive then the order wall, despite being not as useful?

P.P.S. the poll is the thread was pointed out as being meaningless, many (like me) didnt vote due to the options. I doubt if CJ would give more than a glance at the results form such a poll. If you want a serious poll, then make a serious poll; one with propper options.

I'd just like to say that that replay was submitted because I posted it in Zenith Chat, as it was one of several losses I suffered today while I tried to ranked while sleep-deprived. xD

Don't take it seriously. Although thanks for the tips :)

BuddyLucky2
04-12-2013, 11:37 PM
Well I guess i have no power... To Change Chaos
I'll just suck it up that i will have to learn how to beat chaos -_-

Why Bother...

uberman
04-13-2013, 02:40 AM
Well I guess i have no power... To Change Chaos
I'll just suck it up that i will have to learn how to beat chaos -_-

Why Bother...

Thats just silly.
I did not say, suggest nor imply that you or anyone else has no power. We are all contributing members of the comunity, and equal in that role.

What I DID suggest is that the poll as you did it was flawed, I and others pointed this out in the thread, many times.
Therfore, it is invalid as a tool to draw a valid conclusion - its a simple suggestion that; if you want to draw a valid conclusion, you must use a valid tool.

Look at the options you put up, either chaos is OP or chaos requires no skill - there are no other options.
You can see that is highly bias, right?

If you want to use a poll to compare the two empires, and expect the Devs to pay attention, obviously you need a more valid poll.

BuddyLucky2
04-13-2013, 05:07 AM
How do i make a new poll?

DragonFrost
04-13-2013, 07:26 AM
Idk if you can change this one, as it is now closed, but maybe make a new thread?

WheresMyCheetos
04-13-2013, 07:52 AM
Lol you make this options
Chaos and order both fair
Chaos slighty like an atom better but no changes needed
Chaos is so OP I'm gonna explode

DragonFrost
04-13-2013, 07:53 AM
Lol you make this options
Chaos and order both fair
Chaos slighty like an atom better but no changes needed
Chaos is so OP I'm gonna explode
You forgot order OP xD and order slightly like an atom better but no changes needed.

uberman
04-13-2013, 08:15 AM
If I were to suggest a way forward, before doing the poll have a discussion stage to determine what the issues are.
Then devise an issue specific poll.

Phase 1.
Chaos is disadvantaged in ways X,Y and Order is OP because of Z (say chaos players)
Order is disadvantaged in ways A,B and chaos is OP because of C (say order players)
Discussion to exchange views.

Stage 2 the poll.
Poll A is a serious disadvantage / slight disadvantage / not a disadvanteage at all only percieved as a disadvantage by order players
Same for B,C X,Y,Z.
Overall; chaos is massively OP and the game needs to change /chaos is slightly OP / its balanced / order is slightly OP /order is massively OP and the game needs to change

jli
04-13-2013, 08:20 AM
not a disadvanteage at all only percieved as a disadvantage by order players

I see that little bias you put in there. :P

But yes, I agree. We need a systematic way of collecting all the data relating to Order-Chaos balancing before we start voting. The system you offered is sensible and logical, just like any other of your posts. :)

DragonFrost
04-13-2013, 09:14 AM
Yep, uberman is the logic man of the forums ^.^ Ofc I barely understood what he said :/ but it seems like a good idea nonetheless XD