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alien1657
11-12-2012, 07:44 PM
I recently lost to a guy doing that.

asdfstick
11-12-2012, 07:49 PM
ninjas shinobi lvl2, a few enslaved giants with lost of merics, attack early, towerspawns
hope this helps

alien1657
11-12-2012, 09:48 PM
I will try that.

300noob
11-12-2012, 10:19 PM
as in other thread said, build a real army.
2 giants as meat shield, 1-2 mages the rest is speartons and maybe some merics.

MiamiBigAL
11-13-2012, 04:10 PM
If someone is amassing giants, then they probably have shit to no army. So just kill all their miners and you win.

MrSticky
11-13-2012, 06:36 PM
magikill's posion spray.

Tecness2
11-13-2012, 06:59 PM
Q: How do you win against people massing giants
A: Very Easily.

TheFighterz
11-13-2012, 07:23 PM
Tower spawn will force the enemy miners to either garrison, defend themselves, make units to defend themselves or make tower archers. All this will not only put pressure, but hurt them economically. You should be building up an army of Shadowrath. Upgrade Shinobi to level 2 and wait constantly harass the miners. You should win before it becomes too much.

Bladed Fire
11-13-2012, 07:32 PM
Just use speartons, merics and magikills to defeat him. Shadowraths is also useful to poison giant, do massive damage and kill giant with fury.(Shadowrath is a support unit)

Ortex
11-13-2012, 08:16 PM
Use fire against fire... You spawn more giants, the. Spawn ALOT of soldiers and upgrade them. Most of the times they don't even upgrade there giants. Also build more walls so the Giant can be blocked just in case. Spawn ghosts to distract the giant, Once you get full upgraded giants, the giants will kill others. Or another way is to upgrade both archers and Swordwraith, get ALOT then use the upgrades to kill the giant, but make sure to have enough miners to spawn both ghosts and giants... Just go all out, spawn as much as you Can if it is necessary... Like for example, you get a ghost Speartons to distract them. The giant will attack the Speartons *or ghost giant* giving you time to defend... Which can lead to you destroying the giant.

300noob
11-15-2012, 06:08 AM
Use fire against fire... You spawn more giants, the. Spawn ALOT of soldiers and upgrade them. Most of the times they don't even upgrade there giants. Also build more walls so the Giant can be blocked just in case. Spawn ghosts to distract the giant, Once you get full upgraded giants, the giants will kill others. Or another way is to upgrade both archers and Swordwraith, get ALOT then use the upgrades to kill the giant, but make sure to have enough miners to spawn both ghosts and giants... Just go all out, spawn as much as you Can if it is necessary... Like for example, you get a ghost Speartons to distract them. The giant will attack the Speartons *or ghost giant* giving you time to defend... Which can lead to you destroying the giant.
that will not work very well....maybe get some flying crossbowmen and 2 giants as meat shield, or 1 , i defeated a guy with 3 giants (1 is a tower spawn giant) and lots of speartons using flying crossbowmen and giants as meat shield with support from castle archer, i defeat his MAIN army and proceed with killing his next giant tower spawn with a almost dead giant with lots of flying crossbowmen, ..he lost when he almost win (my statue can only handle like 10 more hits)....then when i approach his statue and attack, he sent his ninjas to my statue but it was too late.

Ortex
11-25-2012, 10:55 AM
No how I do it is I get a Swordwraith or crawler because I have chaos now, I see how much giAnts he has.. I start making A army to over power him.. That's how I defeated 6 giants with 6 chaos giants... I got a lot of juggerknights and it killed all of his soldier.

xzibit258
11-25-2012, 06:10 PM
Spawn four ninja lvl.2 four albowtross with blazing bolts three sperton and four merics

Dracus94
11-25-2012, 10:01 PM
omg ortex l2p :P

Azxc
11-26-2012, 01:33 AM
Speartons and ninjas will easily get pwned by 8-9 giants...
MagiKill doesn't do mcuh damage on giants..... he is for area attack only
So I think they are not good to kill mass giants

And some massing giant guys are not noob....they could get strong at the beginning (no giants at first) and suddenly mass a lot of giants later, how to deal with it?

Bladed Fire
11-26-2012, 02:09 AM
The way to win against people massing giants is to defeat their army first, when they have not build giants, just like when you fight a normal player, after you found out that he is massing giants, use speartons as meat shield and use shadowraths to do massive damage to the giants and poison them by using shinobi, cloak or stealth.Use merics to heal your meat shields and use magikill to support your army. Use albowtross to deal damage with the blazing bolts with archidons using fire arrows, at last, train giants too as massive meat shield. I always use this strategy against people who mass giants: 1 giant or more, 3 merics or more, 1 to 2 magikill with all the spells and of course 5 or more speartons as meat shield(but they all die at most time...). The another strategy is train 1 giant or more, albowtross 4 or 5, 3 merics plus 1 magikill.

Seadefen
11-26-2012, 04:58 AM
I beat giant massers easily but they say my strategy is lame ~~

So I don't mention it here.

cowboy bodacious
11-26-2012, 06:31 PM
well, i am one of the giant massers but i will not give up my secretes, only way to get me is if i lag out

asdfstick
11-26-2012, 07:48 PM
I remember fighting a chaos giant spammer. I was doing good, but then I lagged out:( (this was on my alternate account).
I used ninjas shinobi lvl 2 and i'm not sure if other strategies for taking out order giants will apply to chaos giants.

Tecness2
11-26-2012, 08:05 PM
Q: How do you win against people massing giants
A: Very Easily.

I still standby this.

77Row
11-26-2012, 09:21 PM
Its simple, if they dont have an army protecting their miners than just attack them, with speartons.
And if they have some giants then skip the giants and go for the miners.

Dracus94
11-27-2012, 10:34 PM
Try mass swordwrath with rage? :P

Triss
12-17-2012, 01:15 AM
It only worked if the only army was Giants only.
And for the solution, have tower spawn 2, Giants+albowtross(behind them), and several shaddowwrath(poison them)

I met a guy using this solution, but he only have 1 giant and 1 shadowrath(it should be 2-3 giants+3-4 shaddowrath) with albowtross in the frontline:confused:
I quickly finishes his army.

300noob
12-17-2012, 01:42 AM
easy, spawn crazyjay so he can assasinate all the giants, rofl.


use mage, some giants or lots of speartons, lots of merics albowtrosses(optional) and some mages with all spells...

Triss
12-17-2012, 07:48 PM
Just don't make the flying units in front

MiamiBigAL
12-18-2012, 05:14 PM
7 swordwraths kill 1 giant. Problem solved.

uberman
12-19-2012, 06:54 AM
I still standby this.

please give your strategy or some tips to counter a giant masser?
Mine (as a noobie) is to get a load of spears some archers and swords - no giants. Then rush past his giants and hit his statue.

Maybe I am cheap

:)

Azxc
12-19-2012, 10:07 PM
I had 5 ninjas, 3 speartons, lots of swordwraths with rage (7-10), one giant and 2 clerics...
and I often disturb his miners and killed 2 giants at the beginning
but later he suddenly came out with 5 giants and %@)(* pwn my army

Damned giant masser!!!!!!!

_Ai_
12-19-2012, 10:50 PM
I had 5 ninjas, 3 speartons, lots of swordwraths with rage (7-10), one giant and 2 clerics...
and I often disturb his miners and killed 2 giants at the beginning
but later he suddenly came out with 5 giants and %@)(* pwn my army

Damned giant masser!!!!!!!

i know that feel bro...

Azxc
12-20-2012, 03:03 AM
Ok, once again
a guy rushed me with EIGHT GIANTS!!!!
again, my army with ninjas spearton and swordwraths just get PWNED
Giants massers really really suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OOOOPPPPPPP!!!!

just cannot figure out how they get so much money?...
i disturb their miners so much...

btw, they are more smarter... they will build walls and castle archers to protect and defend their miners with 1-2 giants at the first stage, and suddenly burst all their giants out when they have 5-6 giants.... how to get rid of campers...? Ghost is not a good way...

_Ai_
12-20-2012, 03:48 AM
Ok, once again
a guy rushed me with EIGHT GIANTS!!!!
again, my army with ninjas spearton and swordwraths just get PWNED
Giants massers really really suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OOOOPPPPPPP!!!!

just cannot figure out how they get so much money?...
i disturb their miners so much...

btw, they are more smarter... they will build walls and castle archers to protect and defend their miners with 1-2 giants at the first stage, and suddenly burst all their giants out when they have 5-6 giants.... how to get rid of campers...? Ghost is not a good way...

they must have experienced early rushes and spearon all out rush and became more alert. They have a new way to counter us.we need a new way to counter them. or make a nerf
the nerf is about higher costing giant or range?

Azxc
12-20-2012, 05:02 AM
Make them throw stones more slower as the stones are very heavy
Decrease stun time
Decrease range, so albowtross can exactly do something...

Boulders cannot hit fleeting ninjas, it is really important!!!!
every time I tried to assassinate his miner but later when my ninja run back
he throws stones and stun my ninjas and he killed them
My ninjas still get hit although the stones don't REACH the ninjas!

That is all of my comments

PsychoticCheez
12-20-2012, 05:32 AM
Giant massing, or massing of any kind for that manner, just seems fundamentally wrong.

Unless the game has been imbalanced so that

1. Creating a horde of giants
2. Winning with the horde of giants

is a sure win, and that the process of 1 is inevitable, then there is a way to beat giant massers.


So we can either stop our enemy at 1 or 2, assuming the game is not imbalanced. I'll adress 2, just because 1 is pretty damn complex and is situation dependent.

What are giants? (and their weaknesses?)
Meat shields. Their attack isn't that great, in terms of actual damage. Correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge it takes a fully grown giant two hits to take out one miner. That's pretty low, considering I just spent 1500 on the thing and that it takes up 7 population, and that the delay between their attacks is quite large.

Their strength comes from their massive health, and the fact that they can stun.

This means when people mass semi-strong units like the shinobi (you'd typically have about perhaps 15, on a good day), if you face a giant masser with 7 or so giants, that's almost half your army that will be stunned, and likely killed, as they try to escape, having only brought down 1 giant. Ooh, and look, he has another giant in the training que! And let's not forget that two shinobi take longer to train than one giant.
Fun.

So we have our problem there. When giants can stun, and are built up in their masses, their relatively tiny damage gets magnified and they become an almost unstoppable force.

Therefore, the solution to giants is to create ANOTHER unit that can take large amounts of damage, and is immune to stun!
But hang on a minute ...I swear we have that already ...wait, aren't they called ...giants?


"But does that mean we're just supposed to out-giant them? Isn't that a bit crude?"

Well if you thought I suggested outnumbering their giants, you're going about this the wrong way.


Ok, once again
a guy rushed me with EIGHT GIANTS!!!!
again, my army with ninjas spearton and swordwraths just get PWNED
Giants massers really really suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OOOOPPPPPPP!!!!


Let's take the example above and say the enemy has eight giants. Nothing but eight giants.

If we had, say ..seven giants. We'd lose if we left it at that, of course. But my point is that having 1 or 2 giants slightly less than the enemy will not make you lose the game immediately. You have a window of opportunity, before your giants perish. What's important is what you do with this window.

So, how do we exploit 8 giants, standing in the same spot, for what will be a good few minutes? If only we had a unit that had a decent amount of splash damage.
Oh wait. It's called a wizard.

I don't think it'd be too difficult to force a win from here.

MiamiBigAL
12-20-2012, 01:14 PM
If you want to raise your game you need to stop thinking in terms of what's the best possible maxed out army you can get, and start thinking in terms of how much damage you can cause your opponent's economy/resources for some given cost, and how much benefit you can grab for your own economy, at all stages of the game.

It is all well saying 8 giants are going to destroy everything. The reality is that 8 giants really could be quite tough to deal with. But my hairs would start going grey in game-time before I ever managed to amass 8 giants.

Why build 1 unit at a time when you can build 3-4 units at a time and have an army that is far larger and superior to your opponent's army in a much shorter amount of time. Every unit has a strength and weakness and when you work out what they are you will start using most of them.

Hint: You do not need any giants at all to kill a giant masser.

Triss
12-21-2012, 08:43 AM
Ok, once again
a guy rushed me with EIGHT GIANTS!!!!
again, my army with ninjas spearton and swordwraths just get PWNED
Giants massers really really suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OOOOPPPPPPP!!!!

just cannot figure out how they get so much money?...
i disturb their miners so much...

btw, they are more smarter... they will build walls and castle archers to protect and defend their miners with 1-2 giants at the first stage, and suddenly burst all their giants out when they have 5-6 giants.... how to get rid of campers...? Ghost is not a good way...

Hey Azxc, try my combo

6 Speartons
2 Archidons(Optional)
3 Merics
2 Magikill
3 Giants
1 Spirit Giant

I beat a 7-Giant spammer with this combo, you can ask him

The name is Anmolr
I'm sorry but I forgot the code
If you meet him just ask bout me

Azxc
12-22-2012, 08:32 PM
People always suggest new races, but there is a race that everyone forgets
It is the GIANT EMPIRE, their army consist of just giants
They have been killing the Order and the Chaos Empires
They throw boulders to everyone, more terrible than medusa
Everyone, speartons, ninjas, swordwraths, archers, are being stoned to death
They don't belong to Order anymore, They can fight alone with little help from priest
They are now smart, they know how to gain little support from a few speartons and archers

CaptainCorps has been changed... giants are the only way, even ME, try to think that, is giants the only way...?

petmuju
12-22-2012, 09:21 PM
What about giant speartons, giant miners, giant starer, giant merics, giant archidons, giant swordwrath, giant bombers, etc... XD

KrayZStick
12-22-2012, 10:28 PM
Why do the giants have to be slow and dumb? Wouldn't their brains be larger then ours? & how does being bigger make them slower? We're bigger then animals like (humans are pretty slow) cats, & we're still slower, but why do giant humans have to be slower then regular humans?

Bladed Fire
12-23-2012, 02:14 AM
Why do the giants have to be slow and dumb? Wouldn't their brains be larger then ours? & how does being bigger make them slower? We're bigger then animals like (humans are pretty slow) cats, & we're still slower, but why do giant humans have to be slower then regular humans?

Why do dinosaurs didn't even build one empire of themself, or why they would'nt build a place to keep from the big disaster long long ago? Do dinosaurs smarter than us? No.

KrayZStick
12-23-2012, 01:17 PM
Why do dinosaurs didn't even build one empire of themself, or why they would'nt build a place to keep from the big disaster long long ago? Do dinosaurs smarter than us? No.

Their brains obv smaller then ours, but shouldn't giant brains be bigger than ours? They're basically humans, just bigger. Or did stickpage make them some kind of dumb monster that's not human?

Bladed Fire
12-23-2012, 11:27 PM
if giants were real, and they were 2 times larger than us, they would be 2 times FASTER.

They're dumb. Keep in mind.

_Ai_
12-24-2012, 12:11 AM
Then explain why deads isnt smart.

Tecness2
12-24-2012, 12:23 AM
Then explain why deads isnt smart.
They are dead.

_Ai_
12-24-2012, 12:41 AM
... Correct but im kinda dissapointed with that answer

Bladed Fire
12-24-2012, 01:01 AM
They are dead.
Exactly! Deads have rotten brains that they didn't use. Giants improve their size while decreasing their agility and brain size. That's the same with dinosaurs.

petmuju
12-24-2012, 01:39 AM
Why do dinosaurs didn't even build one empire of themself, or why they would'nt build a place to keep from the big disaster long long ago? Do dinosaurs smarter than us? No.

Maybe because they don't have hands to build! XD


Why do the giants have to be slow and dumb? Wouldn't their brains be larger then ours? & how does being bigger make them slower? We're bigger then animals like (humans are pretty slow) cats, & we're still slower, but why do giant humans have to be slower then regular humans?

Elephants are big but slow aren't they? Snails are small but slow too.

Bladed Fire
12-24-2012, 01:54 AM
Maybe because they don't have hands to build! XD
Lol, okay, I reads dinosaur's books when I'm in Primary and know that the most intelligent dinosaurs can't be as intelligent as us.(I'm not showing off that humans are so intelligent,because some are dumb...)

petmuju
12-24-2012, 03:10 AM
Lol, okay, I reads dinosaur's books when I'm in Primary and know that the most intelligent dinosaurs can't be as intelligent as us.(I'm not showing off that humans are so intelligent,because some are dumb...)

Hmm, I don't remember my primary school teaching about dinosaurs when I was still in primary. And to keep on topic,... I've got nothing. Maybe i''ll just say that giants are unnecessarily dumb. That is all. XD

Bladed Fire
12-24-2012, 03:37 AM
Hmm, I don't remember my primary school teaching about dinosaurs when I was still in primary. And to keep on topic,... I've got nothing. Maybe i''ll just say that giants are unnecessarily dumb. That is all. XD

Lol, I read dinosaur books, not taught from teachers...read by myself... ok?

petmuju
12-24-2012, 03:46 AM
Lol, I read dinosaur books, not taught from teachers...read by myself... ok?

Oh, then you must probably know more about dinosaurs then I do! XD
Good job! :D

Triss
12-28-2012, 06:55 AM
It's about brain:body ratio
If you have high brain:body ratio, that mean's you're smarter
our brain have a ratio of 50% of the head
dinosaur? guess it yourself.

Bladed Fire
12-28-2012, 08:03 AM
It's about brain:body ratio
If you have high brain:body ratio, that mean's you're smarter
our brain have a ratio of 50% of the head
dinosaur? guess it yourself.

20% or lower

Dracus94
12-28-2012, 11:55 AM
Why do the giants have to be slow and dumb? Wouldn't their brains be larger then ours? & how does being bigger make them slower? We're bigger then animals like (humans are pretty slow) cats, & we're still slower, but why do giant humans have to be slower then regular humans?
Something to do with physics or whatever. I don't remember exactly, but if you're 10 times larger your muscles are 10 times weaker? idk
but if you were 10 times smaller you could jump 10 times higher. So the opposite basically happens when you're 10 times larger.

KrayZStick
12-28-2012, 02:33 PM
If Giants were 2x larger, they'd still be 2x faster, they'd have same ratio of muscles to lift their legs & run, but then again they have chains & boulders. But why are chaos giants slow than?

Bladed Fire
12-28-2012, 04:51 PM
If Giants were 2x larger, they'd still be 2x faster, they'd have same ratio of muscles to lift their legs & run, but then again they have chains & boulders. But why are chaos giants slow than?

So, the clubs and dead body are so light huh?

MiamiBigAL
12-28-2012, 05:26 PM
It's about brain:body ratio
If you have high brain:body ratio, that mean's you're smarter
our brain have a ratio of 50% of the head
dinosaur? guess it yourself.

Not quite right. Neanderthals had a brain size about twice as large as ours, and are pretty much the same size.

Bladed Fire
12-28-2012, 05:43 PM
Not quite right. Neanderthals had a brain size about twice as large as ours, and are pretty much the same size.

Aoory? What is Neanderthals?

DragonFrost
12-28-2012, 05:46 PM
The Neanderthals (English pronunciation /niˈændərˌθɔls/, /niˈændərˌtɔls/, /niˈændərˌtɑls/ or /neɪˈɑndərˌtɑls/) are a now-extinct species or subspecies within the genus Homo and closely related to modern humans. They are known from fossil specimens dating to the Pleistocene period and found in Europe and parts of western and central Asia. The term "Neanderthal", a shortening of "Neanderthal man", is sometimes spelled Neandertal, the modern spelling of the name of the Neander Valley in Germany where the species was first discovered.

Neanderthals are classified alternatively as a subspecies of Homo sapiens (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) or as a separate species of the same genus (Homo neanderthalensis). The first proto-Neanderthal traits appeared in Europe as early as 600,000–350,000 years ago. Proto-Neanderthal traits are occasionally grouped with another phenetic species, such as Homo heidelbergensis, or a migrant form, Homo rhodesiensis.

The youngest Neanderthals include the Vindija Cave fossils in Croatia, which are between 33,000 and 32,000 years old. No definite specimens younger than 30,000 years ago have been found, but evidence of fire by Neanderthals in Gibraltar indicate they may have survived there until 24,000 years ago. Cro-Magnon or early modern human skeletal remains with "Neanderthal traits" were found in Lagar Velho (Portugal), dated to 24,500 years ago and interpreted as indications of extensively admixed populations.

Several cultural assemblages have been linked to the Neanderthals in Europe. The earliest, the Mousterian stone tool culture, dates to about 300,000 years ago. Late Mousterian artifacts were found in Gorham's Cave on the south-facing coast of Gibraltar. Other tool cultures associated with Neanderthal include Châtelperronian, Aurignacian, and Gravettian. These latter tool assemblages appear to have developed gradually within the populations, rather than being introduced by new population groups arriving in the region.

Neanderthal cranial capacity is thought to have been as large as that of modern humans, perhaps larger, indicating that their brain size may have been comparable, or larger, as well. In 2008, a group of scientists created a study using three-dimensional computer-assisted reconstructions of Neanderthal infants based on fossils found in Russia and Syria. The study showed Neanderthal and modern human brains were the same size at birth, but by adulthood, the Neanderthal brain was larger than the modern human brain. They were much stronger than modern humans, having particularly strong arms and hands. Males stood 164–168 cm (65–66 in) and females about 152–156 cm (60–61 in) tall.

Genetic evidence published in 2010 suggests they contributed DNA to anatomically modern humans, probably through interbreeding between Neanderthals and the earliest Humans that dispersed out of Africa. This is thought to have occurred between 80,000 and 50,000 years ago, shortly after (or perhaps before) the proto-Eurasians emigrated from Africa, while they were still one population. According to the study as much as 1–4% of the genome of the population that populated Eurasia was contributed by Neanderthals.


LOL read that. (mehehehe)

Bladed Fire
12-28-2012, 05:53 PM
The Neanderthals (English pronunciation /niˈændərˌθɔls/, /niˈændərˌtɔls/, /niˈændərˌtɑls/ or /neɪˈɑndərˌtɑls/) are a now-extinct species or subspecies within the genus Homo and closely related to modern humans. They are known from fossil specimens dating to the Pleistocene period and found in Europe and parts of western and central Asia. The term "Neanderthal", a shortening of "Neanderthal man", is sometimes spelled Neandertal, the modern spelling of the name of the Neander Valley in Germany where the species was first discovered.

Neanderthals are classified alternatively as a subspecies of Homo sapiens (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) or as a separate species of the same genus (Homo neanderthalensis). The first proto-Neanderthal traits appeared in Europe as early as 600,000–350,000 years ago. Proto-Neanderthal traits are occasionally grouped with another phenetic species, such as Homo heidelbergensis, or a migrant form, Homo rhodesiensis.

The youngest Neanderthals include the Vindija Cave fossils in Croatia, which are between 33,000 and 32,000 years old. No definite specimens younger than 30,000 years ago have been found, but evidence of fire by Neanderthals in Gibraltar indicate they may have survived there until 24,000 years ago. Cro-Magnon or early modern human skeletal remains with "Neanderthal traits" were found in Lagar Velho (Portugal), dated to 24,500 years ago and interpreted as indications of extensively admixed populations.

Several cultural assemblages have been linked to the Neanderthals in Europe. The earliest, the Mousterian stone tool culture, dates to about 300,000 years ago. Late Mousterian artifacts were found in Gorham's Cave on the south-facing coast of Gibraltar. Other tool cultures associated with Neanderthal include Châtelperronian, Aurignacian, and Gravettian. These latter tool assemblages appear to have developed gradually within the populations, rather than being introduced by new population groups arriving in the region.

Neanderthal cranial capacity is thought to have been as large as that of modern humans, perhaps larger, indicating that their brain size may have been comparable, or larger, as well. In 2008, a group of scientists created a study using three-dimensional computer-assisted reconstructions of Neanderthal infants based on fossils found in Russia and Syria. The study showed Neanderthal and modern human brains were the same size at birth, but by adulthood, the Neanderthal brain was larger than the modern human brain. They were much stronger than modern humans, having particularly strong arms and hands. Males stood 164–168 cm (65–66 in) and females about 152–156 cm (60–61 in) tall.

Genetic evidence published in 2010 suggests they contributed DNA to anatomically modern humans, probably through interbreeding between Neanderthals and the earliest Humans that dispersed out of Africa. This is thought to have occurred between 80,000 and 50,000 years ago, shortly after (or perhaps before) the proto-Eurasians emigrated from Africa, while they were still one population. According to the study as much as 1–4% of the genome of the population that populated Eurasia was contributed by Neanderthals.


LOL read that. (mehehehe)

Lol, didn't read.(Just kidding) So, in the conclusion, giants are made to be dumb in Stick War and Stick Empires, so don't think about this thing anymore.

KrayZStick
12-28-2012, 07:30 PM
So, the clubs and dead body are so light huh?

Nerd power, ACTIVATE!!

Ok, so after upgraded twice, they are very large, I would say about, 1200 Pounds. Average Human = 150 Pounds, 12/1.5 ratio, that's like if your 144 Pounds, & Lifting 18 Pounds.
Spread out through the body (not like a dumbbell, ever compare a 20 pound baby to a 20 pound dumbbell?) so it would be easier to left. Double that because it has a club too and lets say that's 150 pounds. So it would be like a human weighing 144 Pounds carrying & hurling 36 (18 in each hand) at the enemy, that would mean the giant would be 1200 Pounds carrying 300 Pounds, 4/1 Ratio, But doesn't that mean they should be fast at walking? Walking with 36 Pounds isn't that hard, putting it over your head might be, but still....
I'm about 100 pounds so that means me carrying 25 pounds, 12.5 in each hand, that isn't really hard, your carring 25% of your body weight.

Nerd power, DEACTIVATE!!!

Bladed Fire
12-28-2012, 07:38 PM
Nerd power, ACTIVATE!!

Ok, so after upgraded twice, they are very large, I would say about, 1200 Pounds. Average Human = 150 Pounds, 12/1.5 ratio, that's like if your 144 Pounds, & Lifting 18 Pounds.
Spread out through the body (not like a dumbbell, ever compare a 20 pound baby to a 20 pound dumbbell?) so it would be easier to left. Double that because it has a club too and lets say that's 150 pounds. So it would be like a human weighing 144 Pounds carrying & hurling 36 (18 in each hand) at the enemy, that would mean the giant would be 1200 Pounds carrying 300 Pounds, 4/1 Ratio, But doesn't that mean they should be fast at walking? Walking with 36 Pounds isn't that hard, putting it over your head might be, but still....
I'm about 100 pounds so that means me carrying 25 pounds, 12.5 in each hand, that isn't really hard, your carring 25% of your body weight.

Nerd power, DEACTIVATE!!!

This thing I REALLY didn't read all(lol). Yes, Giant and Enslaved Giant should have more speed and attack power too when research giant growth.

DragonFrost
12-28-2012, 08:51 PM
Wait... You actually read everything I copied from Wikipedia (Lol)? But you didn't read this...

Triss
12-29-2012, 12:43 AM
Actually, your muscle is 2x larger, but your weight 2^3=8 times of normal one.
If it's 10 times, then the weight will be 10^3=1000 times of normal
It's about biology,physics, and....actually, too many info to write.

KrayZStick
12-29-2012, 12:52 PM
My nerd power isn't that strong ok?

Panki
12-29-2012, 04:11 PM
I'M ONLY 12 GODDAMNIT!

KrayZStick
12-29-2012, 04:15 PM
:O 12-YEAR OLD TROLLER!!!

Bladed Fire
12-29-2012, 04:54 PM
lol.

Panki
12-29-2012, 05:02 PM
:O 12-YEAR OLD TROLLER!!!

Nothing new if you play CoD

Bladed Fire
12-29-2012, 05:22 PM
lol again.

3FFA
12-29-2012, 07:11 PM
You guys are the giants. The Giants are the normal people.

Bladed Fire
12-29-2012, 07:15 PM
The ants are you because you say 'you guys' not 'we'. I wonder how tall you are.

Panki
12-29-2012, 07:16 PM
Calling me a giant is like calling an ant an elephant. Bbecause probably only like 4 foot 8 or something.

Bladed Fire
12-29-2012, 07:26 PM
Lol. I'm MONSTER just kidding. In metre please? Your height.

DragonFrost
12-29-2012, 07:35 PM
Sigh I dislike American measurements... I know that 1 meter equals 3.? Feet, but I'm lazy. My height (I'm 12 and a half) is 1.63 meters.
So I'm like average. I think?

Bladed Fire
12-29-2012, 07:39 PM
Sigh I dislike American measurements... I know that 1 meter equals 3.? Feet, but I'm lazy. My height (I'm 12 and a half) is 1.63 meters.
So I'm like average. I think?

Wow, I'm 13 and I'm on your height. LOL, you're slightly tall I guess. But my friend are 1.78 metres. I'm Chinese.

KrayZStick
12-29-2012, 07:48 PM
I'm 13, Vietnamese, 5 Feet 4 Inches, I think that's 1.62 meters.

Bladed Fire
12-29-2012, 07:50 PM
Panki, I think one of my friend are shorter than you.
KrayXZStick, you're in Vietnam? We're neighbours, I'm in Malaysia, which is near to Indonesia. P/S neckromorph is also vietnamese.

DragonFrost
12-29-2012, 07:57 PM
I'm Chinese, although I live in Canada :D

Bladed Fire
12-29-2012, 08:01 PM
I'm Chinese, although I live in Canada :D

Lol. You believe in Buddha too?

Panki
12-29-2012, 08:44 PM
Ah, sorry, forgot about metres.
I'm 1.42 metres. So yeah....
And I'm tuning 13 this week too.

_Ai_
12-29-2012, 10:31 PM
Wow, off topic but like this...
Btw, I'm 15 in another few days, and is Malaysian.
My height... I'm pretty short for my age 1.56 meter

Bladed Fire
12-29-2012, 10:49 PM
Wow, off topic but like this...
Btw, I'm 15 in another few days, and is Malaysian.
My height... I'm pretty short for my age 1.56 meter

Wow you're 15? I'm going to be 14 next year, and you're the same age of my sister! Yeah, VERY off topic. Where do you live _Aiman_?

Tecness2
12-29-2012, 10:55 PM
Wow you're 15? I'm going to be 14 next year, and you're the same age of my sister! Yeah, VERY off topic. Where do you live _Aiman_?
Okay, now you people are starting to get a tiny bit annoying.
http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?876-The-Chat-Thread
There's a chat thread, you guys can also go onto a chatbox hosted by one of the clans, or you can PM each other. Just, stop posting in these threads.

Bladed Fire
12-29-2012, 11:00 PM
Okay, now you people are starting to get a tiny bit annoying.
http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?876-The-Chat-Thread
There's a chat thread, you guys can also go onto a chatbox hosted by one of the clans, or you can PM each other. Just, stop posting in these threads.

Lol, ok.

Panki
12-29-2012, 11:13 PM
Going back to topic: Although a giant empire sounds cool, it isn't a good idea.

Azxc
12-30-2012, 03:08 AM
lol... my meaning is...
The Order Giant Empire
People abusing E giants, just like there is no Order but Giant Race...

DragonFrost
12-30-2012, 08:45 AM
Lol that's basically what happens in end battle when I play. I have like 5k gold, and max pop, so when my army dies I just built giants lol.

Triss
12-30-2012, 09:40 PM
Well, for that much gold, usually I buy castle archers+miner wall for defense(in case my army is destroyed)

Tecness2
12-30-2012, 09:46 PM
Order Vs Giant Spammer.
Mass swordwrath, and get a few archers (to take out any air units or something).
Mr Sticky and I just did it, funny as hell, to so 50+ raging swordwrath, EAT, not kill, EAT 4 giants, a spearton, and a magikill.

Bladed Fire
12-30-2012, 10:11 PM
Order Vs Giant Spammer.
Mass swordwrath, and get a few archers (to take out any air units or something).
Mr Sticky and I just did it, funny as hell, to so 50+ raging swordwrath, EAT, not kill, EAT 4 giants, a spearton, and a magikill.
Are you crazy about Swordwrath massing? Anyways, why do you delete Gamer's first clan post?

Azxc
12-31-2012, 02:19 AM
GGGRRR.... I get pwned by TEN GIANTS!!!!!! (he had 3 medics also)
My army consisted of:
a line of speartons
one ninja
2 magikills
2 giants
2 albowtross
2 medics
1 archidrons
1 ghost giant

Just.... get finished in one minute
he camped all the time, he just went out once, he made one failed assault I pwned his 5 giants at first, but I cannot assault his statue as he had a giant+2 walls+ 3 castle archers guarding the base

Later.... he made TEN giants and pwnd my army quickly!
There is NO ORDER BUT THE GIANT EMPIRE!!!! *%&@*(%@*&^)*^

uberman
12-31-2012, 02:26 AM
If you want to raise your game you need to stop thinking in terms of what's the best possible maxed out army you can get, and start thinking in terms of how much damage you can cause your opponent's economy/resources for some given cost, and how much benefit you can grab for your own economy, at all stages of the game.


Thats a fact, excellent advice, thanks.
Any general advice on how to do that in various situations? What kind of moves to be looking to make, and what the priority is.
Given control of the tower, hit and run with tower spawn is probably a standard method - but what other methods could you point out?

ETA.
For example, in a simplified trade of units; attacking a giant with 7 swords and losing 6 but killing the giant is a good move as his lost resources are more than yours, but attacking it with 5 and losing all 5 but not killing the giant is a bad move as your loss is greater than his.
For example, a set piece trade where you deliberately sacrifice of a healer by bringing her to the front of the juggerknights, so his ninja breaks stealth and kills her, but certainly dies to a juggerknight charge/stun before escape is a good move as his ninja is more costly than your healer.

What other type of examples are you referring to?



It is all well saying 8 giants are going to destroy everything. The reality is that 8 giants really could be quite tough to deal with. But my hairs would start going grey in game-time before I ever managed to amass 8 giants.

Why build 1 unit at a time when you can build 3-4 units at a time and have an army that is far larger and superior to your opponent's army in a much shorter amount of time. Every unit has a strength and weakness and when you work out what they are you will start using most of them.

Hint: You do not need any giants at all to kill a giant masser.

If things have gone pear-shaped, he's got the tower and a group of giants at the tower - your screwed, in general. If he doesn't have walls up, and doesn't all out attack right away, (for example he's healing up his giants or waiting on tower spawn 2) you could build a group and charge for his tower, but can you suggest any other options that may allow you to pull a win out of the bag?

3FFA
12-31-2012, 04:31 AM
I've played and won multiple games now testing out a good anti-giant massing strategy. It is called speartons with archidon and swordwrath(swords sometimes just from early game) support. Then even if my opponent has archers and 2 walls I wait for him to move units to the obelisk and then I charge my units past, using the archidons to distract his units while mine quickly rush up to his miner walls. I then focus them each down, ignoring the miners. Afterwards I take out his statue and type 'gg'.

Bladed Fire
12-31-2012, 05:48 AM
GGGRRR.... I get pwned by TEN GIANTS!!!!!! (he had 3 medics also)
My army consisted of:
a line of speartons
one ninja
2 magikills
2 giants
2 albowtross
2 medics
1 archidrons
1 ghost giant

Just.... get finished in one minute
he camped all the time, he just went out once, he made one failed assault I pwned his 5 giants at first, but I cannot assault his statue as he had a giant+2 walls+ 3 castle archers guarding the base

Later.... he made TEN giants and pwnd my army quickly!
There is NO ORDER BUT THE GIANT EMPIRE!!!! *%&@*(%@*&^)*^

Azxc, Enslaved Giant= 7 pop 10 EGiants=70 pops Meric=5 pops 3 Merics=15 pops 10 EGiants+3 Merics= 85 pops, that's maxed out.(Max population=80)

MiamiBigAL
12-31-2012, 07:21 AM
Thats a fact, excellent advice, thanks.
Any general advice on how to do that in various situations? What kind of moves to be looking to make, and what the priority is.
Given control of the tower, hit and run with tower spawn is probably a standard method - but what other methods could you point out?

ETA.
For example, in a simplified trade of units; attacking a giant with 7 swords and losing 6 but killing the giant is a good move as his lost resources are more than yours, but attacking it with 5 and losing all 5 but not killing the giant is a bad move as your loss is greater than his.
For example, a set piece trade where you deliberately sacrifice of a healer by bringing her to the front of the juggerknights, so his ninja breaks stealth and kills her, but certainly dies to a juggerknight charge/stun before escape is a good move as his ninja is more costly than your healer.

What other type of examples are you referring to?



If things have gone pear-shaped, he's got the tower and a group of giants at the tower - your screwed, in general. If he doesn't have walls up, and doesn't all out attack right away, (for example he's healing up his giants or waiting on tower spawn 2) you could build a group and charge for his tower, but can you suggest any other options that may allow you to pull a win out of the bag?

I can give you some principles:

(1) try to force your opponent to go castle archer as soon as possible. A castle archer at the beginning of the game is an effective 50% hit to their economy. A castle archer after they have 8 miners getting gold may only be a 20% hit (but this is still good!)
(2) A good strategy is to hold the middle tower with the minimum amount of resources required. If you can grab the middle tower with just a sword without any harrassment from your opponent, feel free to get some miners on the next round of gold. If your opponent tries to take the tower, you can see what army he has and pump out the right counter units to take it back at a smaller investment and with a bigger economy than your opponent has used to take it.
(3) Harrass your opponent's economy if he tries to tech. Most people in this game are not aggressive enough. Rushing isn't "newbie" or "without honor" or "cheesy". Rushing is a tactic used to exploit the weakness of a non-protected resource-rush strategy (if you don't do this, you will get swarmed by giants and lose). In other words, force that castle archer to come out. Force those miner walls to come up. Use your ghosts as castle archer tanks and frustrate your opponent to death. Maximize your spearton's health and armor advantages to keep his miners off his gold, and when he his almost dead, garrison-heal him and send another spearton, and another and another and another. Or use ninjas shinobi level 2 to pick off miners 1 by 1 if you prefer that route of economy harrassment. Or use archers with your ghost spearton to pick off miners one at a time. These are all strategies that high-level players have used very effectively.
(4) Use your ranged units to take down those walls without taking any damage. 2-3 archers or albowtrosses can be a good investment if your opponent starts to turtle. If you don't take down those walls fast, you are going to be in trouble.
(5) And the reality at the moment....order giants are currently awesome. The old swordwrath rage used to hard-counter giants, but now they don't. The old ninja retreat-dodge used to counter giants, now they don't. Mass archer hit and run used to give them trouble, but now they get cut down one by one. In terms of value for money, you can't really beat giants unfortunately.
(6) Giant masser weakness is that the massers tend to only get giants, which just simply take too long to do. By all means use giants, but it is better to also include support units when you can build support units at the same time as the giants. For example, Albowtross with flaming arrows can really dish out a lot of damage (of course, you need a giant of your own as well here for protection).

uberman
12-31-2012, 07:46 AM
I can give you some principles:


Perfect, thats exactly what I was wanting - a principle is better than two examples as it can be applied in more siuations (- this is how I teach Physics!)



(1) try to force your opponent to go castle archer as soon as possible. A castle archer at the beginning of the game is an effective 50% hit to their economy. A castle archer after they have 8 miners getting gold may only be a 20% hit (but this is still good!)
(2) A good strategy is to hold the middle tower with the minimum amount of resources required. If you can grab the middle tower with just a sword without any harrassment from your opponent, feel free to get some miners on the next round of gold. If your opponent tries to take the tower, you can see what army he has and pump out the right counter units to take it back at a smaller investment and with a bigger economy than your opponent has used to take it.
(3) Harrass your opponent's economy if he tries to tech. Most people in this game are not aggressive enough. Rushing isn't "newbie" or "without honor" or "cheesy". Rushing is a tactic used to exploit the weakness of a non-protected resource-rush strategy (if you don't do this, you will get swarmed by giants and lose). In other words, force that castle archer to come out. Force those miner walls to come up. Use your ghosts as castle archer tanks and frustrate your opponent to death. Maximize your spearton's health and armor advantages to keep his miners off his gold, and when he his almost dead, garrison-heal him and send another spearton, and another and another and another. Or use ninjas shinobi level 2 to pick off miners 1 by 1 if you prefer that route of economy harrassment. Or use archers with your ghost spearton to pick off miners one at a time. These are all strategies that high-level players have used very effectively.
(4) Use your ranged units to take down those walls without taking any damage. 2-3 archers or albowtrosses can be a good investment if your opponent starts to turtle. If you don't take down those walls fast, you are going to be in trouble.
(5) And the reality at the moment....order giants are currently awesome. The old swordwrath rage used to hard-counter giants, but now they don't. The old ninja retreat-dodge used to counter giants, now they don't. Mass archer hit and run used to give them trouble, but now they get cut down one by one. In terms of value for money, you can't really beat giants unfortunately.
(6) Giant masser weakness is that the massers tend to only get giants, which just simply take too long to do. By all means use giants, but it is better to also include support units when you can build support units at the same time as the giants. For example, Albowtross with flaming arrows can really dish out a lot of damage (of course, you need a giant of your own as well here for protection).

Thank you.
Next time we meet on the field, things will be different!
(Joking of course, I have a lot to learn before I can get into top 100, never mind the top end of top 100! You kicked my ass even harder than CaptainCorps did, at least against him I put up a bit of solid resistance ... It was just that I had something in my eye....)

ETA (for benifit of fellow noobies who struggle against giant massing, which is the topic of the thread)

This is very significant to countering a gaint masser, although on first read may seem unrelated - once he has a mass of giants, youre screwed (err, I mean your options are limited). The best way to beat a gaint masser is to stop him getting a mass of giants in the first place. The real challenge comes when he has a normal army first and adds giants, but that requires a very strong economy - so again, subdue his economy is the best counter to his strategy.
If he's trying to build giants, he does so at a disadvantage to other units during the long build time, so if you're as good a player as him thats when you need to take advantage - before he has a significant giant force.



ETA2 Having reflected on your advice, here's my understanding of one way to run your suggestions;

So if using number 2, you are holding the tower just for its economic benifit, not to actually attack - right?
Grab the tower ASAP, light defences only pumping your economy instead of building an attack force.
Run an early attack or two (with your crawlers so he 'outwits you' and builds an early castle archer hehe falling for trick no. 1) OR has to keep pulling his miners back and losing production
But once he puts up walls or caslte archer, instead of rushing out towerspawn, juggerknights and wings to take down his walls, just sit on the tower and pump your early economy...
If he takes the tower back, see what he's got out there and plan an economic take-back.
Then having got your economy set up, (normally 8 gold and 3/4 mana with hustle, right? (should more be added as you arm up too?)), THEN you get towerspawn and start to put pressure on him.

Muhahaha

DragonFrost
12-31-2012, 08:28 AM
Good math work bladed fire :D

Triss
12-31-2012, 10:40 AM
GGGRRR.... I get pwned by TEN GIANTS!!!!!! (he had 3 medics also)
My army consisted of:
a line of speartons
one ninja
2 magikills
2 giants
2 albowtross
2 medics
1 archidrons
1 ghost giant

Just.... get finished in one minute
he camped all the time, he just went out once, he made one failed assault I pwned his 5 giants at first, but I cannot assault his statue as he had a giant+2 walls+ 3 castle archers guarding the base

Later.... he made TEN giants and pwnd my army quickly!
There is NO ORDER BUT THE GIANT EMPIRE!!!! *%&@*(%@*&^)*^

You don't use Swordwrath Spam+Magikills?

Triss
12-31-2012, 10:53 AM
Uberman, do you think he wouldn't unleash his giant army against you?
And for taking back the tower, if he have a better army, what should you do?

MiamiBigAL
12-31-2012, 11:26 AM
Perfect, thats exactly what I was wanting - a principle is better than two examples as it can be applied in more siuations (- this is how I teach Physics!)



Thank you.
Next time we meet on the field, things will be different!
(Joking of course, I have a lot to learn before I can get into top 100, never mind the top end of top 100! You kicked my ass even harder than CaptainCorps did, at least against him I put up a bit of solid resistance ... It was just that I had something in my eye....)

ETA (for benifit of fellow noobies who struggle against giant massing, which is the topic of the thread)

This is very significant to countering a gaint masser, although on first read may seem unrelated - once he has a mass of giants, youre screwed (err, I mean your options are limited). The best way to beat a gaint masser is to stop him getting a mass of giants in the first place. The real challenge comes when he has a normal army first and adds giants, but that requires a very strong economy - so again, subdue his economy is the best counter to his strategy.
If he's trying to build giants, he does so at a disadvantage to other units during the long build time, so if you're as good a player as him thats when you need to take advantage - before he has a significant giant force.



ETA2 Having reflected on your advice, here's my understanding of one way to run your suggestions;

So if using number 2, you are holding the tower just for its economic benifit, not to actually attack - right?
Grab the tower ASAP, light defences only pumping your economy instead of building an attack force.
Run an early attack or two (with your crawlers so he 'outwits you' and builds an early castle archer hehe falling for trick no. 1) OR has to keep pulling his miners back and losing production
But once he puts up walls or caslte archer, instead of rushing out towerspawn, juggerknights and wings to take down his walls, just sit on the tower and pump your early economy...
If he takes the tower back, see what he's got out there and plan an economic take-back.
Then having got your economy set up, (normally 8 gold and 3/4 mana with hustle, right? (should more be added as you arm up too?)), THEN you get towerspawn and start to put pressure on him.

Muhahaha

Yeah, you pretty much got the gist of it. What I do is that at all stages I am always comparing my economy to my opponent's. For example, if I go miner/miner/swordwrath and take the middle tower with no resistance, then especially on a small map I know I have both an economic and military advantage while I hold the tower (tower is worth approximately 1.4 miners in terms of gold/second). I then know that whatever army my opponent sends, I can send an even bigger one back while maintaining my economic edge. Or if my opponent starts to resource-rush, I can force a castle archer, a miner retreat, or an army spam with just one spearton.

You should also be aware of how damaging a miner retreat is. A full miner takes back 150 gold. A non-full miner takes back less. 150 gold can get you a miner or a sword or is often a multiple of another unit cost. If a miner brings back less than 150, that value becomes an unused resource (unless you want miner wall). You really do not want to be bringing back less than 150 unless you are going to lose a miner by not retreating. And you definitely want to be causing your opponent to retreat at the same time. Forcing a retreat of mass miners can easily be equivalent economy-damage to actually killing two or more miners depending on how many there are and how long you keep them at bay for.

The Tower:

Where players often go wrong here is they make ghost too early. If you get a ghost, that is less resources to spend on your army, making it potentially vulnerable. You should really only go for an early ghost if you are certain your army is already significantly bigger than your opponent's. Otherwise, it is very risky to do. So many games are lost because people go for the ghost early on. It is a gamble that sometimes pays off very well but sometimes loses you the game. For me, the tower is my money-tree. I do not usually consider getting an early ghost unless I know I have severely messed up your economy and/or you are still miner spamming, or I know I have already won and I just want to end the game quickly. In a high-level game, the ghost comes out once I already have a significantly large army and I have resources sitting around doing nothing.

Order Giants:

Again, I should probably emphasize that order giants are unfortunately a bit too "beast" at the moment. For players of equal skill, the game will end up being a giant spam towards the end. If you are a bit more skillful than your opponent, you can win without them. The best strats unfortunately involve around an eventual giant massing. The newbies will giant mass as fast as possible, but the experts will giant mass late game. I wish there were a few hard-counters to giants but at the moment there really aren't many satisfactory ones. The problem with swordwraths (closest things to hard counter) is that they get destroyed by castle archers (all you have to do is move your army to the castle-archer decoy unit and the swordwraths are nullified), so a giant spammer does not need to be afraid of a swordwrath army. Also, one magikill, or a couple albows, or archers... would take care of a swordwrath army very quickly (which is about all they are ever good for).

uberman
12-31-2012, 12:45 PM
Yeah, you pretty much got the gist of it. What I do is that at all stages I am always comparing my economy to my opponent's. For example, if I go miner/miner/swordwrath and take the middle tower with no resistance, then especially on a small map I know I have both an economic and military advantage while I hold the tower (tower is worth approximately 1.4 miners in terms of gold/second). I then know that whatever army my opponent sends, I can send an even bigger one back while maintaining my economic edge. Or if my opponent starts to resource-rush, I can force a castle archer, a miner retreat, or an army spam with just one spearton.


On that point, income for economic advantage, do you pick up passive income, and if so do you do it after getting the miners in place or before? Its less return than a miner, but gives gold and mana, and doesn't take up 2 population slots.



You should also be aware of how damaging a miner retreat is. A full miner takes back 150 gold. A non-full miner takes back less. 150 gold can get you a miner or a sword or is often a multiple of another unit cost. If a miner brings back less than 150, that value becomes an unused resource (unless you want miner wall). You really do not want to be bringing back less than 150 unless you are going to lose a miner by not retreating. And you definitely want to be causing your opponent to retreat at the same time. Forcing a retreat of mass miners can easily be equivalent economy-damage to actually killing two or more miners depending on how many there are and how long you keep them at bay for.


wow, thats enlightening. Hence your huge army against my paltry offering the other day (I was on chaoticevil, my chaos acct).
So its almost as important to make them Garrison as it is to actually kill any miners - obviously both being the ideal.




The Tower:

Where players often go wrong here is they make ghost too early. If you get a ghost, that is less resources to spend on your army, making it potentially vulnerable. You should really only go for an early ghost if you are certain your army is already significantly bigger than your opponent's. Otherwise, it is very risky to do. So many games are lost because people go for the ghost early on. It is a gamble that sometimes pays off very well but sometimes loses you the game. For me, the tower is my money-tree. I do not usually consider getting an early ghost unless I know I have severely messed up your economy and/or you are still miner spamming, or I know I have already won and I just want to end the game quickly. In a high-level game, the ghost comes out once I already have a significantly large army and I have resources sitting around doing nothing.


Good point. Build a securing force first - towerspawn is wasted resources if you don't keep hold of the tower :) and that's in his advantage, seriously so.



Order Giants:

Again, I should probably emphasize that order giants are unfortunately a bit too "beast" at the moment. For players of equal skill, the game will end up being a giant spam towards the end. If you are a bit more skillful than your opponent, you can win without them. The best strats unfortunately involve around an eventual giant massing. The newbies will giant mass as fast as possible, but the experts will giant mass late game. I wish there were a few hard-counters to giants but at the moment there really aren't many satisfactory ones. The problem with swordwraths (closest things to hard counter) is that they get destroyed by castle archers (all you have to do is move your army to the castle-archer decoy unit and the swordwraths are nullified), so a giant spammer does not need to be afraid of a swordwrath army. Also, one magikill, or a couple albows, or archers... would take care of a swordwrath army very quickly (which is about all they are ever good for).

Right.

Did you see my thread about crawlers? in test play I found that 30 buffed (pack mentality and predator instinct) crawlers killed 3 giants easily, and 12 killed one giant, with 6 crawlers dead. That was without any micro.
Could this be the chaos equivalent to the swordwrath hard counter to giants? With its weakness to castle archers and AOE's too?
I just cant help but think there must be a flaw in the plan of spamming crawlers to take out giants....
link http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?48346-Question-about-crawlers-raised-by-test-playing

I'd appreciate your comments.

_Ai_
12-31-2012, 01:22 PM
They REALLY should make a nerf at Giants. Those massers are pissing me off

Bladed Fire
12-31-2012, 05:38 PM
They REALLY should make a nerf at Giants. Those massers are pissing me off

Some of them are stupid enough, so no worries.

Bladed Fire
12-31-2012, 05:43 PM
Good math work bladed fire :D

DragonFrost, that's just simple math...

DragonFrost
12-31-2012, 05:44 PM
lol really? :D

DragonFrost
12-31-2012, 05:45 PM
lol what about SMART giant massers :)

3FFA
12-31-2012, 07:12 PM
Well against those you just find their weakness easily.

Azxc
12-31-2012, 08:09 PM
Azxc, Enslaved Giant= 7 pop 10 EGiants=70 pops Meric=5 pops 3 Merics=15 pops 10 EGiants+3 Merics= 85 pops, that's maxed out.(Max population=80)

Well... I think medic= 3 pops....?
If medic= 5 pop
They are equal with magikills lol...

Triss
12-31-2012, 10:45 PM
lol what about SMART giant massers :)

Get Giants+magikills, and INSULT him while your magikill cast his spell.
He will be distracted, and doesn't control his giants. By that time his giants are already dead.

Bladed Fire
12-31-2012, 10:59 PM
Get Giants+magikills, and INSULT him while your magikill cast his spell.
He will be distracted, and doesn't control his giants. By that time his giants are already dead.

What's the meaning by get GIANTS+magikill? Are you massing giants too? Sorry if its offensive.

Azxc
12-31-2012, 11:20 PM
He means 5 giants with 2 magikill
or 6 giants with 1 magikill
or other components

I don't think it works at all.... if you want to use explosion and electric wall to the giants (short range spells) , your magikill have to walk out from your giant meat shield and your magikill will be thrown to stone death

Bladed Fire
12-31-2012, 11:24 PM
He means 5 giants with 2 magikill
or 6 giants with 1 magikill
or other components

I don't think it works at all.... if you want to use explosion and electric wall to the giants (short range spells) , your magikill have to walk out from your giant meat shield and your magikill will be thrown to stone death

VERY AGREE. It's like I'm going to be their meatshield~ , the merics are also same.

lntrepid
12-31-2012, 11:59 PM
Ever since Mr. Stickytheman released his Giant massing/rushing video, giant rushing rates have gone through the roof. Everyone has been annoyed and raging since November, and there seems to be almost no way to counter them. Which is why I propose :

(1) Miner Hustle speeds up the miners a little too much. They should have a slight nerf in speed relative to now, but a slight buff in speed once they start mining the second gold spawns.

(2) Add mana as a requirement to the giants. I propose around 800(?) mana, and 1600 gold. Chaos giants should be 600 mana and 1500 gold.

(3) Reduce the Giant Growth growth levels. Tone down the sizes, so that giants are not huge tanks. The middle size is fine, but the second upgrade should be reduced by about half (the percentage, not actual calculation), and health levels adjusted accordingly.

Azxc
01-01-2013, 12:16 AM
AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Giants are OP and there is no way to counter it!
They have large health and can stun the target that make them OP
Make them higher training time and cost

_Ai_
01-01-2013, 12:42 AM
Well... I think medic= 3 pops....?
If medic= 5 pop
They are equal with magikills lol...

The pop for meric is three so...
1 EGiant : 7 pop
10 EGiant : 70 pop
1 meric : 3 pop
3 meric : 9 pop

It's possible but he'll need to kill his miners
But wait, I don't wanna kill miners! It's kinda sad. I rather ignore them. And go straight to attacking them.

uberman
01-01-2013, 12:43 AM
Agreed.

I suggest maybe doing a poll.
Obviously giant massers (you know who you are) will say no need to nerf them, but I doubt if anybody else will.

Order's enslave giants are the main problem - but I think it is OK to increase chaos giant costs a little, but not much. Although, I hardly ever bother with a chaos giant as they are now - this is mainly because once he takes damge, it takes for ever to get him healed. Even if you garison him, he has to walk the whole map to garison and walk slowly back. Its faster to suicide him and build another which is just crazy! For all that healing time, he's tied up resources and population that you cant be using. Whats the point of a meat shield who cant soak up damage :(
IMO, Chaos giants are more often a liability than not.

I do build them, when I have too much cash on hand and not enough mana to build other things, or when I am saving up mana for a medusa or marrow.
Only other time I use them is as a counter to a group of order giants, as they hit 3 at once.

_Ai_
01-01-2013, 12:48 AM
Agreed with all but one. The miner hustle one. It'll drag the game longer which is not good for bad pcs

_Ai_
01-01-2013, 12:50 AM
Giants in my opinion, does not suit to be a tanker. Because he's a ranged unit. And, a tanker will need to be fast to recover.
Like speartons

uberman
01-01-2013, 12:51 AM
Agreed with all but one. The miner hustle one. It'll drag the game longer which is not good for bad pcs

Yes, I think your right; miners are fine. No need to slow things down. Its a good balanced pace as it is - turn your back on economy in a fight and your disadvantaged by 2 or 3 miners stood around. Just the right speed, IMO.

Bladed Fire
01-01-2013, 01:52 AM
A suggestion:Miner hustle gives a gold buff and pray buff, like from 150 gold ->200 gold from 7 mana->10 mana I think this should not be added because this is just for fun. If its real, miners will be OP. I think there should be a limited amount for Giants. Like when Giants are up to three, the giant infantry button are locked. When one died, it unlocks again. Anyways, I like the giant growth thing. I need it to increase one more level. BUT, the last level is the same as giant growth 2 now.

Bladed Fire
01-01-2013, 01:55 AM
Well... I think medic= 3 pops....?
If medic= 5 pop
They are equal with magikills lol...

Tecness said that Meric =5 pops, he experiment it, ask him.

_Ai_
01-01-2013, 02:08 AM
A suggestion:Miner hustle gives a gold buff and pray buff, like from 150 gold ->200 gold from 7 mana->10 mana I think this should not be added because this is just for fun. If its real, miners will be OP. I think there should be a limited amount for Giants. Like when Giants are up to three, the giant infantry button are locked. When one died, it unlocks again. Anyways, I like the giant growth thing. I need it to increase one more level. BUT, the last level is the same as giant growth 2 now.

Well, the miners is not OP but it'll fasten the game. And about the giants, yeah, I agree. So giant growth will be 3 growths?
Original size
Growth 1: adds 2 hp bar (slightly bigger)
Growth 2: adds another 2 hp bar (the current giant growth 1)
Growth 3: current growth 3

_Ai_
01-01-2013, 02:09 AM
Tecness said that Meric =5 pops, he experiment it, ask him.

No, it's 3 pop per meric, you can see it at the game

Azxc
01-01-2013, 02:26 AM
Yeah... how can medics be 5 pop...?
Do you play in Order...? I think you do
Check it, 3 pop

Azxc
01-01-2013, 06:24 AM
After playing with matches with CaptainCorps and Crazyjay
I figured out that Giants is the only way

Ways to counter giants:

First one: Mass swordwrath
training one swordwrath requires 12 sec
Training one giant requires 40 sec
so... I can only get 3 swordwraths to fight one of his giant, plus he could have archidons and speartons to support the giaants
Not working.... I tried many times using different supporting units with swordwraths, I promise

Second one: Get magikill+speartons: explosion and electric wall are short range spells and you have to get close enough to use them on giants, you are forced to leave your giant shelter, speartons will die after 30 seconds and they will stun your magikill until he die. The only usable spell is poison spray but... their medics cure them fast.. so it is useless

Third one: Mass ninjas: Impossible, ninjas die easily

The only way to counter giants is use giants
So I know this game will become stone throwing parties instead of having a real war
Crazyjay (which pwned me with giants) said "How would giants are OP? Both of us can have it"
So.... you mean we can just make giants?
Ok, stone throwing party, we throw stones at each other
I will pwn Crazyjay if we redo the match, I will make giants instead of making real army and pwn Crazyjay

Giants are OP, they have really TANK hit points that you can hardly kill them, they can stun your army, they train too fast, they have low cost compare to infantries, making ONE giant (7 pop, 1500g)or 3 speartons (9 pop,1350g 150 mana), what do you prefer?

CaptainCorp is right, he is now top ONE in top 100, everyone knows he spams giants
I MADE THE WRONG CHOICE, believing giants is not the only way

I lose, giants is the only way, I cannot reject it, I will pwn you guys with giants tomorrow
There is no more Order nor Chaos, but the Giant Empires is going to rise

PsychoticCheez
01-01-2013, 06:52 AM
Giant massing is beatable. Very beatable.

The giant growth upgrades are quite pointless though. They do not affect the game whatsoever as they are so cheap and the time spent waiting for the two upgrades are irrelevant.

Bladed Fire
01-01-2013, 07:11 AM
Giant massing is beatable. Very beatable.

The giant growth upgrades are quite pointless though. They do not affect the game whatsoever as they are so cheap and the time spent waiting for the two upgrades are irrelevant.

You have a point.

3FFA
01-01-2013, 07:56 AM
you forgot speartons in mass can just pass the giants and destroy the tower easily, even with miner walls in the way(focus walls, then statue). If you lose to giants when doing this, they probably got way ahead beforehand and just took advantage of it. Also, wtf did I just read.

malbence
01-01-2013, 08:24 AM
Killing a giant: Make a giant or two, make speartons, make a meric, spacebar to select all, target a giant (wipe out archers and support first unless it's just a spearton or two) and hold the merics behind the giants for health purposes and safety.

Bam winner.

DragonFrost
01-01-2013, 09:11 AM
.... Let's say someone had 9 giants. PWN all speartons quickly. PWN all giants quickly. PWN meric quickly. TADA! 9 giants win.

DragonFrost
01-01-2013, 09:16 AM
... Giant growth is not pointless at all. One, bigger meat shield. 2. MUCH MORE health.
Also, can you tell us how it is beatable? :)

DragonFrost
01-01-2013, 09:20 AM
I thought it was 3 pop too..

malbence
01-01-2013, 09:26 AM
1. Well then don't give them the opportunity to make that many. If you suspect a giant spammer, perhaps send in shadowrath to kill the miners and set them back a bit? Because they'll definitely have castle archers. I would suggest holding a nice army over to kill any giants already made and coming up, and then streaming shadowraths to harass and probably suicide bomb the miners (although they might survive, they have a nice bit of health).

Dunno if that'd actually work but it sounds good in my head. :P

WAIT BUT CAN SHADOWRATHS GET PAST MINING WALLS?


2. If you suspect giant spamming you could try massing archers, hiding them behind some walls, giving them fire, upgrading the castle, and making a giant or two? Then just keep harassing the giants. You'd be surprised how much damage massed archers can deal on a giant. Four or five rounds and they can knock a giant down. Combine that with the fact that your giants (if you made any) will stun the giant, which means the giant makes less damage, takes more damage.

Of course if they're attacking with nine giants ... then pray. because maybe ghost spawning is --- not really I just wanted to make a pun with praying and miner praying.

The problem with massing archers and using giants as meat shields is that archers outrun giants and take /loads/ of damage from castle archers and MAGIKILLS.



Sorry if these ideas aren't any good; I randomly spawned them off the top of my head.

DragonFrost
01-01-2013, 09:31 AM
1. Well then don't give them the opportunity to make that many. If you suspect a giant spammer, perhaps send in shadowrath to kill the miners and set them back a bit? Because they'll definitely have castle archers. I would suggest holding a nice army over to kill any giants already made and coming up, and then streaming shadowraths to harass and probably suicide bomb the miners (although they might survive, they have a nice bit of health).

Dunno if that'd actually work but it sounds good in my head. :P

WAIT BUT CAN SHADOWRATHS GET PAST MINING WALLS?


2. If you suspect giant spamming you could try massing archers, hiding them behind some walls, giving them fire, upgrading the castle, and making a giant or two? Then just keep harassing the giants. You'd be surprised how much damage massed archers can deal on a giant. Four or five rounds and they can knock a giant down. Combine that with the fact that your giants (if you made any) will stun the giant, which means the giant makes less damage, takes more damage.

Of course if they're attacking with nine giants ... then pray. because maybe ghost spawning is --- not really I just wanted to make a pun with praying and miner praying.

The problem with massing archers and using giants as meat shields is that archers outrun giants and take /loads/ of damage from castle archers and MAGIKILLS.



Sorry if these ideas aren't any good; I randomly spawned them off the top of my head.
No, shadowwrath cannot get past walls, although 2 shinobi lvl 2 can destroy a wall. Also how does a giant stun a giant.. Obviously you haven't used giants against other giants before :)
P.s. if you hide the archidons behind a wall, what reason would the giant army have to attack? They could camp at the middle, send ghost giants to break walls, etc

malbence
01-01-2013, 09:36 AM
Lol no DragonFrost, I've just never paid attention to my giants apparently. I'm usually too focused on making sure my army is killing people and not dying. :P Those large battles get pretty heated sometimes!

Anyways I'm thinking if you place the archers close to the wall and just hold them back (press H) you could probably hold off any ghosts that come for a while, until they finally send in all their giants, in which case you'd probably be screwed. Maybe using a Magikill with poison at the walls could do some damage? After all, most giant spammers aren't really interested in merics; they're too busy making room for giants. And if you can hit the giants hard enough, then if they walk home to heal some might die in between, especially if you give chase with the archers (which would be risky if there were ghosts).

Again, sorry if this all sucks I'm not even filtering my thoughts right now. :P I'm just typing whatever comes to mind.

DragonFrost
01-01-2013, 09:42 AM
Hmmm as I said they can just send ghosts (you say theydie quickly, but they should be able to hit at least 1 time against wall? So enough hits would break wall :) btw if the opponent had 8 giants and a magikills instead, can the magikills use spells past walls (I never use magikills lol)?

malbence
01-01-2013, 09:46 AM
Hm I just started playing with magikills and all I know is that they can hit albowtrosses. :P I would /imagine/ that they can strike past walls, but I'm not sure.

EDIT:

By the way, you could always claim the tower and spawn giants, then start attacking with heavy defense units (giants and speartons, i think that's it), before they can mass 9 giants.

DragonFrost
01-01-2013, 09:57 AM
Hmm. Maybe. Whenever a giant masser has his first giant out, I'm screwed, although usually by that time I have a small army and a giant under construction, somewhen my giant's done I'm ok :)

malbence
01-01-2013, 10:04 AM
Ah I give up I can't think of a single really good strategy against the giant massers.

The real problem is figuring out if they're massing giants, because if you know they are, you can make an army early on to combat it, but if not, you'll be wasting your time.

DragonFrost
01-01-2013, 10:27 AM
MASS merics :D maybe that'll solve the problem (i doubt it, but hey, noone has tried it, so you never know :))

PsychoticCheez
01-01-2013, 11:10 AM
Its pointless in that there are no decisions to be made. There is no strategical and tactical impact the upgrades have.

The giants are admittedly overpowered, I think. It is too much firepower and meat shield too quickly. They seem a tad too population efficient as well

MiamiBigAL
01-01-2013, 11:23 AM
On that point, income for economic advantage, do you pick up passive income, and if so do you do it after getting the miners in place or before? Its less return than a miner, but gives gold and mana, and doesn't take up 2 population slots.



wow, thats enlightening. Hence your huge army against my paltry offering the other day (I was on chaoticevil, my chaos acct).
So its almost as important to make them Garrison as it is to actually kill any miners - obviously both being the ideal.



Good point. Build a securing force first - towerspawn is wasted resources if you don't keep hold of the tower :) and that's in his advantage, seriously so.



Right.

Did you see my thread about crawlers? in test play I found that 30 buffed (pack mentality and predator instinct) crawlers killed 3 giants easily, and 12 killed one giant, with 6 crawlers dead. That was without any micro.
Could this be the chaos equivalent to the swordwrath hard counter to giants? With its weakness to castle archers and AOE's too?
I just cant help but think there must be a flaw in the plan of spamming crawlers to take out giants....
link http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?48346-Question-about-crawlers-raised-by-test-playing

I'd appreciate your comments.

Unfortunately I think crawlers may be less of a counter than swordwraths. With micro, possibly more so but I can't say at the moment since I've never experimented with them.

The problem with crawlers is that they take up 1 population just like a swordwrath does. 12 crawlers to kill 1 giant means 12 population to defeat 7 population. The benefit of swordwraths is that 7 swordwraths (even without rage) can kill 1 giant. So for equal population, swordwraths come out on top (making them a counter in a swordwrath vs giant situation). However, I am thinking 7 crawlers will probably get annihilated by 1 giant. The advantage of the crawlers is that if you have good micromanagement, you can retreat the hurt crawlers and get them back into battle again 20-30 seconds later or so (and you don't need the population a meric uses for the healing). In that respect, with top micro the crawlers are potentially much more powerful, but again I have not tested.

However, in a realistic situation, you may have other units to deal with. Combinations using magikills, archers, fliers, etc, render crawlers much weaker. Likewise, deads, marrowkai and wingadons will also weaken the swordwrath potential as effective giant counters.

In my opinion, I would personally make it 3 hits to kill a crawler (instead of 2). This will increase crawler giant-survivability by 50%. I would probably also increase swordwrath giant-survivability to 4 hits to death (33% increase? I'm assuming it is currently 3 giant hits to kill a sword but I can't remember). This may mean it would take something like 5 swordwraths (un-microed) to kill a giant and 8 crawlers (un-microed) to kill a giant.

RE: Magikill

I would only use magikills as a counter to a swordwrath//archer army. It is too easy to dodge electric wall for it to be useful against order giants. Against chaos, magikills are worthless because they get killed by marrowkai/medusa too easily.

DragonFrost
01-01-2013, 11:29 AM
Unfortunately I think crawlers may be less of a counter than swordwraths. With micro, possibly more so but I can't say at the moment since I've never experimented with them.

The problem with crawlers is that they take up 1 population just like a swordwrath does. 12 giants to kill 1 giant means 12 population to 7 population. The benefit of swordwraths is that 7 swordwraths (even without rage) can kill 1 giant. So for equal population, swordwraths come out on top (making them a counter in a swordwrath vs giant situation). However, I am thinking 7 crawlers will probably get annihilated by 1 giant. The advantage of the crawlers is that if you have good micromanagement, you can retreat the hurt crawlers and get them back into battle again 20-30 seconds later or so (and you don't need the population a meric uses for the healing). In that respect, with top micro the crawlers are potentially much more powerful, but again I have not tested.

However, in a realistic situation, you may have other units to deal with. Combinations using magikills, archers, fliers, etc, render crawlers much weaker. Likewise, deads, marrowkai and wingadons will also weaken the swordwrath potential as effective giant counters.

In my opinion, I would personally make it 3 hits to kill a crawler (instead of 2). This will increase crawler giant-survivability by 50%. I would probably also increase swordwrath giant-survivability to 4 hits to death (33% increase? I'm assuming it is currently 3 giant hits to kill a sword but I can't remember). This may mean it would take something like 5 swordwraths (un-microed) to kill a giant and 8 crawlers (un-microed) to kill a giant.

RE: Magikill

I would only use magikills as a counter to a swordwrath//archer army. It is too easy to dodge electric wall for it to be useful against order giants. Against chaos, magikills are worthless because they get killed by marrowkai/medusa too easily.

bolded part. Dont you mean 12 crawlers not 12 giants? :)

Tecness2
01-01-2013, 11:31 AM
It used to be bugged, and would have the merics actually costing 5 population instead of 3. It's been fixed.

lntrepid
01-01-2013, 11:32 AM
300 mana is sooo easy to get early game, dude. 750 mana seems balanced enough, because 300 mana? Seriously? You could get that within the first three minutes of the game. Giants should not be early game units, and you should not be able to have more than two.

DragonFrost
01-01-2013, 11:40 AM
ok cool

Brotherhood
01-01-2013, 01:57 PM
Personally, I don't think giants should cost mana and I think their pricing and power is perfect.

Any skilled player would rush early and damage the enemy economy, so if you happen to meet up with a giant masser, do just that. Attacking early is also a way to kill a giant masser. Build a large spearton army and rush at his statue before he gets too many giants.

PLEASE DON'T CHANGE THE GIANT'S STATS!!!

-besides... meeting up with a problem is to find a way to overcome it-

Bladed Fire
01-01-2013, 05:47 PM
I usually rush to see what they're doing and find a solution to solve.( Just defeated a Spearton masser.)

DragonFrost
01-01-2013, 05:55 PM
Spearton massers suck... Because they are hard countered against albows with blazing bolts, plus resilence, plus 3 castle archers, plus 2 walls

jerrytt
01-01-2013, 06:02 PM
It takes alot more than two walls to counter spearton rushers. Sometimes I need about 3-4 walls before my archers kill them.

DragonFrost
01-01-2013, 06:03 PM
LOL it works for me. btw i have like 10 albows to pwn them, also they can get to my statue, but before they destroy it they are all dead lol. Usually the opponent surrenders after XD

DragonFrost
01-01-2013, 08:23 PM
:) just leave chaos giants with 0 mana. Now, order giants on the other hand... >.>

_Ai_
01-01-2013, 10:47 PM
He already edited it

_Ai_
01-01-2013, 10:48 PM
Good. It'll be bad if merics cost 5 pop. They're not worth it

PsychoticCheez
01-01-2013, 11:17 PM
When ..have I said I supported the 750 mana for giants? Quote me please?

Personally I think the nerf should concentrate on building time and population cost.

Triss
01-02-2013, 01:01 AM
He means 5 giants with 2 magikill
or 6 giants with 1 magikill
or other components

I don't think it works at all.... if you want to use explosion and electric wall to the giants (short range spells) , your magikill have to walk out from your giant meat shield and your magikill will be thrown to stone death

Get your giants to move to the front of the magikills, it works.(Order only)
It's actually 2-5 Magikills +2-5 Giants,chose your own combination.

ApocalypseGino
01-02-2013, 01:10 AM
I don't know if this has been said, but how about flying archers, caste archers, and speartons?

Azxc
01-02-2013, 01:24 AM
But to the topic, There is NO counters for giants
First, they will build strong defend at their base with 3 castle archers and walls
you cannot touch it with shadowrath, and he will get pwned easily when he is stunned by the giant
infantry tactic is not working, their training time is too long
a spearton needs 20 sec, a giant needs 40 sec
But we all know that giants pwn 2 speartons

Infantry tactic seems to have the advantages at first, but it doesn't work in a long term fight as the giant masser can camp until he get enough giants such as TEN of them

As I mention, magikill is not as useful as we think

So... only giants can counter giants
So what is the meaning of this game?

uberman
01-02-2013, 01:27 AM
Unfortunately I think crawlers may be less of a counter than swordwraths. With micro, possibly more so but I can't say at the moment since I've never experimented with them.

The problem with crawlers is that they take up 1 population just like a swordwrath does. 12 crawlers to kill 1 giant means 12 population to defeat 7 population. The benefit of swordwraths is that 7 swordwraths (even without rage) can kill 1 giant. So for equal population, swordwraths come out on top (making them a counter in a swordwrath vs giant situation). However, I am thinking 7 crawlers will probably get annihilated by 1 giant. The advantage of the crawlers is that if you have good micromanagement, you can retreat the hurt crawlers and get them back into battle again 20-30 seconds later or so (and you don't need the population a meric uses for the healing). In that respect, with top micro the crawlers are potentially much more powerful, but again I have not tested.

However, in a realistic situation, you may have other units to deal with. Combinations using magikills, archers, fliers, etc, render crawlers much weaker. Likewise, deads, marrowkai and wingadons will also weaken the swordwrath potential as effective giant counters.

As I just added in post #14 of my crawler thread; http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?48346-Question-about-crawlers-raised-by-test-playing&p=838095&viewfull=1#post838095 I did try it out, successfully in a game against a 1600 rated giant spammer (same rating as me).

However, I think your point about population is very important; in the situation I was in neither of us was maxed population initially and so I rushed out a quick max population army (super economy FTW) and attacked before he was maxed - had we both been at max, he would have had more giants and so it was situation specific victory (i.e. I attacked at max population before he had a comparable population, giving me the edge I needed to win).

Yes, as you suggest, my play testing suggests 7 crawlers are wiped by a giant, I think 10 have a chance of beating him but will more often all die (un-micro'd), 11 seems to be break even and 12 is a sound thrashing for the giant.



In my opinion, I would personally make it 3 hits to kill a crawler (instead of 2). This will increase crawler giant-survivability by 50%. I would probably also increase swordwrath giant-survivability to 4 hits to death (33% increase? I'm assuming it is currently 3 giant hits to kill a sword but I can't remember). This may mean it would take something like 5 swordwraths (un-microed) to kill a giant and 8 crawlers (un-microed) to kill a giant.


That really would help a lot, and would allow for hard counters to giants. Both hard counters would also have high risk vulnerabilities associated with them, which is a great strategic situation.

Would the change be best made by decreasing giant damage, or increasing HP of swords and crawlers?



RE: Magikill

I would only use magikills as a counter to a swordwrath//archer army. It is too easy to dodge electric wall for it to be useful against order giants. Against chaos, magikills are worthless because they get killed by marrowkai/medusa too easily.

:)
Hehe I have annoyed a few players with a well place petrify (mage-to-stone spell as I think of it) - excellent range on it too.

Azxc
01-02-2013, 01:28 AM
I don't think there is a way to defeat giant massers

Read my thread: http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?48500-I-completely-lose-under-the-hand-of-GIANTS

Azxc
01-02-2013, 02:21 AM
I think prolonging the training time is a good way to nerf giants
One giant requires 40 seconds, seems very long right?
But one swordwrath 12 seconds, you will only have 3 swordwraths to fight a giant
But one spearton 15 seconds, you will only have 2 speartons to fight a giant

So.... comparatively, giants train VERY FAST!
Should be nerfed to ONE MINUTE

stickman311
01-02-2013, 02:31 AM
lol if they giant mass just giant mass!!!(that will never work)

uberman
01-02-2013, 02:37 AM
I don't think there is a way to defeat giant massers

Read my thread: http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?48500-I-completely-lose-under-the-hand-of-GIANTS

It is a problem for us noobies, but as discussed in this and various 'how to deal with giant massers' threads the best way is to not let him get giants in the first place.

As a chaos player I have found crawlers can be effective (but not perfect due to population costs) when buffed with pack mentality and used in large numbers - with juggerknights to tank and wingdons for damage.
Even tho he's gonna get a better end game 80 population build, you need to make sure he doesnt get to his 80 population giant masser army.

Got PWN'd by 8 giants and a shitload of merics? Yes, me too.
But the thing I should have done, and would try to do next time; took him out before he got to that stage.

Build a fast mixed army, which if you have a good economy you'll do a lot faster than he can queue giants (because he's building one giant at a time, your building 2,3 or 4 units at a time) Max out population ASAP and as soon as you do ATTACK! as soon as you lose a unit, rebuild your multiple units and then each fight sets him back seriously as he has to build single units, your building multiple units - you'll take lots of losses, but your economy is functional (as your on the offensive, you dont let him suppress your economy) so your replacement units are more or less keeping up to losses.

He's got a shit load of giants and merics at the tower, with tower spawn, forcing you to garrison miners and beating you hard - what can you do to win?
Fuck all, to be honest you've been out played already and the guy is just finishing you off.
I'd try (but not expect to win by) attack the giants with my miners (tank and distraction) while running past his giants with my army and going straight for his statue.
If he's smart, and has 2 walls and castle archer and resilience, you die. If you're lucky or he's a noobie with insignificant defenses up, you may pinch a win from the jaws of defeat.

Bottom line; order giants are overpowered, until there is a balancing nerf, and there is no unit which counters them well. Stop him getting giants up by out playing him is the best bet; suppress his economy while pumping your own. If he gets a giant or two out, out play him and take it down.
For example a guy had a giant and a few speartons and a couple of merics, I had wings and juggs and was hitt-and-running against his miners from the tower.
I pulled back, he followed - just out of giant range, I turned and fought his spears - focussed on killing merics with wingdons. As gaint gets into range, withdraw - so his strongest unit is neutralized by its own weakness, its slow speed. By the time we got to the tower (big map) he had only a couple of speartons and giant. I stopped retreating, killed the spears and attacked the giant with a few wounded juggs and half a dozen wingdons. By the time he realized the giant was doomed, it was too late. If he stands and fights, he dies. If he flees he dies without even hurting me as he's too far from garrison to 'run' back.
Having put such a big early investment in a giant, and having lost it, game over. I win easily from there.
Giant massers are not unbeatable. Massed giants are pretty hard to beat - so for the final time in this post; stop him before he gets a mass of giants :)

_Ai_
01-02-2013, 02:41 AM
This is the current most problematic problem for most of our players here, I suppose?
And I saw that Axzc said that with all giant massing there is no point to the game and a real war couldnt be done.
So, I suggest for a nerf. Suggest in what way you want the Giant to be nerfed:

Cost
Training time
Health
Speed
Attack Rate
Attack Damage
Upgrades
Movement Speed
Misc:
Cannot train more giant after 5 giants unless current is defeated

Pease put suggestions of Giant Nerf here

petmuju
01-02-2013, 02:46 AM
:) just leave chaos giants with 0 mana. Now, order giants on the other hand... >.>

But order giants don't have AOE.
So, 1v1 = order giant win
6v6 = chaos giants win.

Also, chaos giants are able to hit sky units so, I think giants are balanced enough.

petmuju
01-02-2013, 02:51 AM
Massing speartons and albowtrosses can beat giants. Also, get help from a Magikill and get poison spray. Or you can mass giants to fight giant massers. XD

Giant massers usually don't defend their miners well early in the game. All you need is a few swordwraths. When castle archers are ready, make sure you have speartons ready. It's hard for them to defend with most gold spent on miners. So, after enough killing, you might have enough gold to make more speartons.

So, I think the giants strengths are good enough...

Tecness2
01-02-2013, 02:51 AM
I'm not raging, I just figured I'd move all the threads raging about giants into one, seeing as how we have 5ish active ones.

petmuju
01-02-2013, 02:52 AM
Wow, giant threads appearing so quickly...

uberman
01-02-2013, 02:53 AM
Giants are OP,
I MADE THE WRONG CHOICE, believing giants is not the only way

I lose, giants is the only way, I cannot reject it, I will pwn you guys with giants tomorrow
There is no more Order nor Chaos, but the Giant Empires is going to rise

Brother in arms against the giant massers, DONT give up! DONT fall into the corruption and become one of THEM!

Yes, Order giants are OP'ed.
But there is always hope. The nerf will come, believe it!
Until then, we have to beat them more subtly via economy, its the best way; stop him getting the giants out - they cant PWN you with giants if you stop him building giants. I posted a detailed response here http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?45178-How-do-you-win-against-people-massing-giants&p=838869&viewfull=1#post838869.

Tecness2
01-02-2013, 02:56 AM
I don't see a nerf happening to giants in the near future.
As I've said, countless times. Mass swordwrath. Many, many, many, many swordwrath. Pick off any magikill/merics first, then focus down the giants.
With the rage being changed, you lose LESS health when doing rage (of course, movement speed was slightly decreased but I think that's a fair trade off)

Azxc
01-02-2013, 03:02 AM
Things are not as simple as you see


Massing speartons and albowtrosses can beat giants. Also, get help from a Magikill and get poison spray.

They really have good defend, they may have a few speartons and castle archers at first but you later realise he have giants camping at the castle


get help from a Magikill and get poison spray

They will have medics with cure... poison doesn't work now


make sure you have speartons ready. It's hard for them to defend with most gold spent on miners. So, after enough killing, you might have enough gold to make more speartons.

They are trainned very fast (40 sec)and will pwn your miners and statue before you ready your rush and if you chose to defend they will pwn your speartons with stun+range+tank HP you cannot kill any giants

Giants seem to require a long time to train, but compare to other infantries
Making one swordwrath (12sec)
Making one spearton (20sec)
Making a giant (40sec)

You will have 3 swordwrath to fight a giant, or 2 speartons to fight a giant, and you will lose
Infantry units have the early stage advantage, but in long term war you really stand no chance
and the enemy has 3 castle archers+plus walls so you cannot really defeat him without giants


Mass swordwrath. Many, many, many, many swordwrath. Pick off any magikill/merics first

You won't have enough swordwraths, giants train too fast (as i mentioned above), they may also have 1-3 archidons or speartons to support them, it doesn't work at all
Tec if you want to prove it, defeat the giant massing master CaptainCorp first, then you tell me

Magikill seems to be useful, poison spray is useless now, they can cure it easily, explosion and electric wall are short range spells, you have to get close enough to cast them but the giants will pwn your speartons meats shield quickly then stun your magikill until he dies

There is no counter with giants except giants
So I mentioned that this game will become stone throwing parties instead of real wars

I suggest that giants should be trained slower for 1 minute, limit hp to level 1
Level 2 is OP, you can hardly kill it without giants

petmuju
01-02-2013, 03:05 AM
Well, I didn't have problems with giant spammers yet so far... XD

karpov
01-02-2013, 03:06 AM
do that order giants use 12 population and 1500 gold/500 mana
and do that chaos giants use 10 population 1500 gold/ 500 mana
and do that spearton ghost come every 1min and 30 sec and giant ghost come every 3min because if giants come every 1 min this making imposible to reflect 6 giants for true

because i am getting bored of those players giant rushers because 4 - 5 giants sometimes 6 is almost imposible to stop with 1 - 2 giants + archidons + speartons + magikill

if you like this say +1

Azxc
01-02-2013, 03:08 AM
Well, I didn't have problems with giant spammers yet so far... XD

I think you have NEVER tried to fight with some expert high class giant massers

Tecness2
01-02-2013, 03:10 AM
You won't have enough swordwraths, giants train too fast (as i mentioned above), they may also have 1-3 archidons or speartons to support them, it doesn't work at all
Tec if you want to prove it, defeat the giant massing master CaptainCorp first, then you tell me

Magikill seems to be useful, poison spray is useless now, they can cure it easily, explosion and electric wall are short range spells, you have to get close enough to cast them but the giants will pwn your speartons meats shield quickly then stun your magikill until he dies

There is no counter with giants except giants
So I mentioned that this game will become stone throwing parties instead of real wars

I suggest that giants should be trained slower for 1 minute, limit hp to level 1
Level 2 is OP, you can hardly kill it without giants
Okay, let's test your theory, shall we? You can not build any other unit for the first 10 minutes, but giants(not including miners). Hell, you know what? Giants and Merics.
I'll build NOTHING but swordwrath(and miners) and beat you. When you change the units you're building, so will I.
Sound fair?

Azxc
01-02-2013, 03:22 AM
No, high class giant massing will not really just build giants, they have A FEW other units (archidons and spearton)
They will force you to fight when they get 5 giants (or even giant rush like CaptainCorp), your swordwrath may can defeat the first wave but you cannot cope with the later waves

And... the giant masser can get a single magikill and KO you.... its very risky
you may rush the magikill first, but his poison spray before he die can be fatal

Tecness2
01-02-2013, 03:27 AM
No, high class giant massing will not really just build giants, they have A FEW other units (archidons and spearton)
They will force you to fight when they get 5 giants (or even giant rush like CaptainCorp), your swordwrath may can defeat the first wave but you cannot cope with the later waves

And... the giant masser can get a single magikill and KO you.... its very risky
you may rush the magikill first, but his poison spray before he die can be fatal
Let him, before the poison spray kills off your army, you should be able to not only destroy his army, but start heading for his base. Mr. Sticky tried to change from just giants, to giants + monks. It failed. Then he tried Giants + Monks + Magikill. It killed most of my units, but it failed. Then he tried, Giants + Magikill + Monk + Flying crossbowmen, and I got 3 Archidons in with it, and guess what. It failed.

Azxc
01-02-2013, 03:32 AM
How many swordwraths did you use? I just never be fast enough...
and how can you destroy his statue? he would get 3 castle archers...

Triss
01-02-2013, 03:32 AM
Try this combo?
30 Swords
2 Giant
4 Magikill

The swords attack the giant from the back, and giants cover up the magikills from the rock of Order Giants.

Also for a nerf, why don't give Magikill blast a bonus damage to Giants?(They have AOE atk, should deal more damage to bigger unit)

_Ai_
01-02-2013, 03:33 AM
Let him, before the poison spray kills off your army, you should be able to not only destroy his army, but start heading for his base. Mr. Sticky tried to change from just giants, to giants + monks. It failed. Then he tried Giants + Monks + Magikill. It killed most of my units, but it failed. Then he tried, Giants + Magikill + Monk + Flying crossbowmen, and I got 3 Archidons in with it, and guess what. It failed.

why does he fail when he have magikill? it should kill most of the swordwrath.(Poison)
And, after the magikill is killed ( it is inevidable),the remaining army should be able to finish em off.
We're talking about Mass swords, right?
but i think ill try

Tecness2
01-02-2013, 03:34 AM
I had about...60 swords at one time? Something like that. You can safely tell what your opponent is going to do in the first two minutes of a game on most maps.
I couldn't kill his statue because of the three castle archers, so I got a ghost giant.
Because poison is slow to affect, and it can't hit ALL of them.

Triss
01-02-2013, 03:35 AM
I had about...60 swords at one time? Something like that. You can safely tell what your opponent is going to do in the first two minutes of a game on most maps.
I couldn't kill his statue because of the three castle archers, so I got a ghost giant.

Don't you hear the rages of Magikill?

Azxc
01-02-2013, 03:39 AM
Then he gonna camp until he has enough giants and push back
or realise your tactic then he mass sometime else to kill your swordwraths

Your gold ore will surely run out before he does, because you will have higher casualties

uberman
01-02-2013, 03:39 AM
Azxc is right, the test is not a fair test of giant massing.
A masser may choose to build only giants, but those guys tend to die fast. A better test is to let him mass as he wishes and you (Tec) demonstrate to him the effective counter by kicking his butt.

If you want a restriction, let it be that you dont attack his miners early game, to let him get a little embeded and set up a defense of castle arches and a couple of walls. This would demonstrate the effectiveness of a non-economic counter, which you suggest is sword's. It would demonstrate that an embedded giant masser is beatable - at least it would if you achieved it and defeated him.

As I have said several times, IMO the best counter to giants is to suppress his economy and stop him getting a mass of giants.

I believe you, I (or another player) could defeat him, if he massed giants and I was free to attack his economy from the start.

Triss
01-02-2013, 03:41 AM
That's why I told you to nerf the Magikill blast.
A 5 Giants+4 Magikill group could kill them easily.

DragonFrost
01-02-2013, 08:27 AM
Azxc is right, the test is not a fair test of giant massing.
A masser may choose to build only giants, but those guys tend to die fast. A better test is to let him mass as he wishes and you (Tec) demonstrate to him the effective counter by kicking his butt.

If you want a restriction, let it be that you dont attack his miners early game, to let him get a little embeded and set up a defense of castle arches and a couple of walls. This would demonstrate the effectiveness of a non-economic counter, which you suggest is sword's. It would demonstrate that an embedded giant masser is beatable - at least it would if you achieved it and defeated him.

As I have said several times, IMO the best counter to giants is to suppress his economy and stop him getting a mass of giants.

I believe you, I (or another player) could defeat him, if he massed giants and I was free to attack his economy from the start.

Even captaincorps2 cannot suppress my economy early game.. (as chaos) I got like 4-5 giants, but then I had to go, lol. He was recording it, although idk if he's gonna put it on YouTube. You'll see why he couldn't supreme my economy (early castle counters crawlers, early 2-3 castles counter juggers, walls help :)

uberman
01-02-2013, 08:42 AM
Even captaincorps2 cannot suppress my economy early game.. (as chaos) I got like 4-5 giants, but then I had to go, lol. He was recording it, although idk if he's gonna put it on YouTube. You'll see why he couldn't supreme my economy (early castle counters crawlers, early 2-3 castles counter juggers, walls help :)

Nice :)
Castle archers are a good defense, no, a very good defense. Walls and multiple castle archers is a great defense.

I guess the ultimate defense must be the 3 castle archers, 2 walls, a magikill or two and a shit-load of archers. Sit behind that and build yourself a mass of giants. Add your giants to the defense as you build them. If you got any population slots left that is :)

DragonFrost
01-02-2013, 08:45 AM
Yeah. I'm kinda paranoid cuz I know he starts with crawlers then gets a jugger lol. If I decide to giant mass (I never turtle though, except in that video that isn't published) I just get 7 miners, then spam the castles lol