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View Full Version : I am/was rank 1. I know what I'm talking about. Read this. Giant Spamming.



xvdaemonicxv
01-12-2013, 08:54 PM
Sorry for such an obnoxious title post. But I hope this has captured your attention and that you are now reading this.

Giant Spamming in regards to this new patch:

The only complaints I've been seeing are that there seems to be more giant spammers. I shall address this:

1. Before this patch each miner would bring in 150 gold each time, thus when two miners get back you get 300 gold. With the more miners u have the amount of gold u get is more(per trip). This is why before this patch you mightve seen spearton rushing more. 3 miners, 450 gold. Easy.

2. Refer to point one. But this also means that giant spamming was more common BEFORE this patch because you would get gold in bulk. Giant 1500 gold. 10 miners return.

3. The rate of income is the same as stated by Brock.

4. SO WHY DOES IT SEEM LIKE THERES MORE GIANT SPAMMERS?

5.Here is why: Because you guys are getting pressured WAY FASTER than before in the early game. The rate at which you can make swordraths and archers have increased dramatically. People who take advantage of this probably pressure you into hiding in your base while they hold tower. To put it simply, you've already lost the game, and earlier too.

6. Refer to point 5. Usually when I do that, the other player gets castle archers and walls. If I continue to make smaller units, speartons, archidons, archers, swords, mage, etc. The splash damage taken from the castle archers is too much and would drag the game on indefinetly. So... I make giants. I giant spam for a quicker victory.

7. Note what I said in point 5. "You've already lost the game, and earlier too" You have lost to a giant spammer not because of the giants, but because you lost in the early stages of the game. BEFORE THERE WERE ANY GIANTS ON THE FIELD. THE EARLIER YOU TURTLE UP. THE EARLIER THE OPPONENT STARTS MAKING GIANTS TO BREAK YOUR CASTLE ARCHER+ARMY DEFENDING.

Giant spamming in general... and how to defeat it so you guys can all shut up and so I can have more of a challenge:

1. As stated above, it is not the the giant spamming that wins the game, it's the fact you allowed him to giant spam and you've allowed him to do that because you lost early game.

2. Something you guys should all notice about losing to a giant spammer. The fact you lost everything else before the giants. (This is probably 90% of the time)

You probably did not have the tower
You probably did not have the scouting information to see what your opponent was making
Your opponent knew exactly what you were doing and if he was in a safe enough position to spend 1500 gold on a giant and have to wait for it to finish completing and then move it all the way across the field
The point I am making above is that with the production of the first giant, the giant spammer is very vulnerable.


3. As stated above in point number 2. We can all agree making a giant is costly and takes a long time and its slow. If you are against making giants then that means you are able to make ANY OTHER UNIT faster AND MOVE THEM TO THE TOWER faster before the first giant arrives. That also means you shud be able to mass units faster.

4. In regards to point number 3, if you still don't have the tower, you're doing it wrong and that's why you're losing.

5. One giant on its own is very weak. I have not tested but it takes A LOT of rocks to kill a spearton. A few speartons or even a mass of swordraths+rage can easily take down that one giant your opponent will probably have out.

6. Your opponent will retreat and try and save the one giant and possibly wait for his second giant to finish (IF he's a giant spammer). His one giant is slow, chase him down. Also here's another possibilty. Harass his miners while the giant is trying to run back to base.

7. If you've done everything correctly so far, you have ghost/tower and your opponent is on the defensive. Position your army right outside of his base where your ranged units can easily take out the 2nd row of gold miners. This will slow down your opponents gold immensly. Slow down giant production, force him to make other units to defend. If he doesnt make other units, Keep pressuring him. 2-3giants does not do that much damage against a mass of speartons,swords,archers, whatever you decided to make.

8. If your opponent gets castle archer and has giants defending, well, heres the dilema, the only way to break a turtler is to giant spam yourself. Start sacrficing a few troops and get giants yourself. Remeber, you have ghost tower AND your opponent shudnt be able to mine from his 2nd row of gold. Get giants/clerics yourself.

*ofc you can also decide not to giant spam and only get 2-3 giants. But do you really wana risk facing w.e army he has defending + a constant hail of lv 3 castle archer? If you don't finish him off, you're army would be seriously injured due to castle archer+his defending army. He/She may then move his army out and kill your army or take tower back. And you've just lost the upper hand and the victory you couldve had if u just "giant spammed". Of course you can still win with 2-3 giants depending on your opponents skill level, but it would be risky. unesccarily risky.

9. Win the game.

10.Oh no! I resorted to giant spamming to win D; This breaks all my personal morals and ethics. I can't do this! I have wronged myself.

11.Correction: You won and fought back the tower with your superb skill of controling archidons/ninjas/clerics/swords/mage/speartons/etc. You forced your opponent into turtling at his base. You killed his gold production. You only spammed giants because your opponent is stubborn enough to not surrender even though he has obviously lost the game.

Sidenote in reference to point 11:

Please don't be that asshole where you get castle archer level 3 and miner walls and an army to try and defend in the hopes of you coming back and winning. You won't. So just surrender. As much fun as it is watching my army of giants crushing your pitiful last stand and you complaining of giant massing and how I have no skill, and calling me derogatory names. It gets kinda old when the past 20 players I defeated did the same thing.

That is all for now. NOW SHUT THE F*** UP ABOUT GIANT SPAMMING.

*same tactic can be used for choas... I think. Idk I don't play choas, you guys are on your own 8D.
*Also do not argue with me cause I am/was rank 1 so I know everything there is to know and everything you say that counters my argument is wrong. Jk, please feel free to ask any questions.

-Giant massing is simply a means to finish off an opponent which you have already beat. How you beat him in the first place is where the skill comes in.

Edit: This is also something I forgot to mention, even when you are behind, with a good timing push, you can take the tower back and win. I don't want to get into specifics because there is just too much to say but you guys get the idea. This should explain what a timing push/attack is.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Timing_Attack

300noob
01-12-2013, 09:17 PM
First pressure him with low tier units like sword and archer, they CAN die by castle archer, fine! create more low tier....than mass sword and let ya enemies giants die when they come, because they're out of gold mine. then you can freely do whatever ya want
that's the weak point of giant massing, spam swordwrath and archer and they die. don't need to attack their statue cuz that's obviously stupid
additional supply depot requ..oh wait...troops beside spamming giant: albowtross? archer! magikill? archer! spearton? swordwrath! spearton + magikill? archer+ swordwrath with rage! swordwrath? massiing sword and archer back! ya swordwrath archer army die? start massing them again!
those are kinda the only way to counter giant as order

xvdaemonicxv
01-12-2013, 09:24 PM
We will, now that you have given us a strategy to, oh, KICK YER ASS.

Good luck beating me in the early game.

WyzDM
01-12-2013, 11:31 PM
Yeah if your enemy has lots of giants you never attacked his economy and you goofed early game.

BuddyLucky2
01-12-2013, 11:40 PM
This quite interesting information...;)
Now I think I have a new plan for giant massers...

xvdaemonicxv
01-12-2013, 11:44 PM
This quite interesting information...;)
Now I think I have a new plan for giant massers...

Can't wait to counter it ;).

_Ai_
01-12-2013, 11:48 PM
But sometimes (really rare time) i turtled in my base while fighting 8 giants. i was making my last stand, ready for the taste of defeat as he killed all of my miners who was defending the base. BUT! I RETALIATED AND KILLED ALL 8 GIANTS AT ONCE AND I PROCCEDED TO KILL ALL OF HIS MINERS .but he had a level 3 castle archer. Killed all of my spears. But something changed the game. Guess.

THE TOWER.

The game changer
we then rebuilded our army back in late game (20 mins in game) TOWER with ghost spawn. then i researched ghost spawn 2. well.....
He surrendered. :P

so last stand kinda gives you some hope. dont despair, there is always hope. a fools hope

Back to topoic, i still wanna know how many spears can kill a giant without support

Westwind
01-13-2013, 12:03 AM
Sorry for such an obnoxious title post. But I hope this has captured your attention and that you are now reading this.

Giant Spamming in regards to this new patch:

The only complaints I've been seeing are that there seems to be more giant spammers. I shall address this:

1. Before this patch each miner would bring in 150 gold each time, thus when two miners get back you get 300 gold. With the more miners u have the amount of gold u get is more. This is why before this patch you mightve seen spearton rushing more. 3 miners, 450 gold. Easy.

2. Refer to point one. But this also means that giant spamming was more common BEFORE this patch because you would get gold in bulk. Giant 1500 gold. 10 miners return.

3. The rate of income is the same as stated by Brock.

4. SO WHY DOES IT SEEM LIKE THERES MORE GIANT SPAMMERS?

5.Here is why: Because you guys are getting pressured WAY FASTER than before in the early game. The rate at which you can make swordraths and archers have increased dramatically. People who take advantage of this probably pressure you into hiding in your base while they hold tower. To put it simply, you've already lost the game, and earlier too.

6. Refer to point 5. Usually when I do that, the other player gets castle archers and walls. If I continue to make smaller units, speartons, archidons, archers, swords, mage, etc. The splash damage taken from the castle archers is too much and would drag the game on indefinetly. So... I make giants. I giant spam for a quicker victory.

7. Note what I said in point 5. "You've already lost the game, and earlier too" You have lost to a giant spammer not because of the giants, but because you lost in the early stages of the game. BEFORE THERE WERE ANY GIANTS ON THE FIELD. THE EARLIER YOU TURTLE UP. THE EARLIER THE OPPONENT STARTS MAKING GIANTS TO BREAK YOUR CASTLE ARCHER+ARMY DEFENDING.

Giant spamming in general... and how to defeat it so you guys can all shut up and so I can have more of a challenge:

1. As stated above, it is not the the giant spamming that wins the game, it's the fact you allowed him to giant spam and you've allowed him to do that because you lost early game.

2. Something you guys should all notice about losing to a giant spammer. The fact you lost everything else before the giants. (This is probably 90% of the time)

You probably did not have the tower
You probably did not have the scouting information to see what your opponent was making
Your opponent knew exactly what you were doing and if he was in a safe enough position to spend 1500 gold on a giant and have to wait for it to finish completing and then move it all the way across the field
The point I am making above is that with the production of the first giant, the giant spammer is very vulnerable.


3. As stated above in point number 2. We can all agree making a giant is costly and takes a long time and its slow. If you are against making giants then that means you are able to make ANY OTHER UNIT faster AND MOVE THEM TO THE TOWER faster before the first giant arrives. That also means you shud be able to mass units faster.

4. In regards to point number 3, if you still don't have the tower, you're doing it wrong and that's why you're losing.

5. One giant on its own is very weak. I have not tested but it takes A LOT of rocks to kill a spearton. A few speartons or even a mass of swordraths+rage can easily take down that one giant your opponent will probably have out.

6. Your opponent will retreat and try and save the one giant and possibly wait for his second giant to finish (IF he's a giant spammer). His one giant is slow, chase him down. Also here's another possibilty. Harass his miners while the giant is trying to run back to base.

7. If you've done everything correctly so far, you have ghost/tower and your opponent is on the defensive. Position your army right outside of his base where your ranged units can easily take out the 2nd row of gold miners. This will slow down your opponents gold immensly. Slow down giant production, force him to make other units to defend. If he doesnt make other units, Keep pressuring him. 2-3giants does not do that much damage against a mass of speartons,swords,archers, whatever you decided to make.

8. If your opponent gets castle archer and has giants defending, well, heres the dilema, the only way to break a turtler is to giant spam yourself. Start sacrficing a few troops and get giants yourself. Remeber, you have ghost tower AND your opponent shudnt be able to mine from his 2nd row of gold. Get giants/clerics yourself.

9. Win the game.

10.Oh no! I resorted to giant spamming to win D; This breaks all my personal morals and ethics. I can't do this! I have wronged myself.

11.Correction: You won and fought back the tower with your superb skill of controling archidons/ninjas/clerics/swords/mage/speartons/etc. You forced your opponent into turtling at his base. You killed his gold production. You only spammed giants because your opponent is stubborn enough to not surrender even though he has obviously lost the game.

Sidenote in reference to point 11:

Please don't be that asshole where you get castle archer level 3 and miner walls and an army to try and defend in the hopes of you coming back and winning. You won't. So just surrender. As much fun as it is watching my army of giants crushing your pitiful last stand and you complaining of giant massing and how I have no skill, and calling me derogatory names. It gets kinda old when the past 20 players I defeated did the same thing.

That is all for now. NOW SHUT THE F*** UP ABOUT GIANT SPAMMING.

*same tactic can be used for choas... I think. Idk I don't play choas, you guys are on your own 8D.
*Also do not argue with me cause I am/was rank 1 so I know everything there is to know and everything you say that counters my argument is wrong. Jk, please feel free to ask any questions.

I'm in a dilemma now...should I thank you for shutting up all those whiners...or should I kill you for creating what will be the same style everybody in order uses from now on?

xvdaemonicxv
01-13-2013, 12:03 AM
But sometimes (really rare time) i turtled in my base while fighting 8 giants. i was making my last stand, ready for the taste of defeat as he killed all of my miners who was defending the base. BUT! I RETALIATED AND KILLED ALL 8 GIANTS AT ONCE AND I PROCCEDED TO KILL ALL OF HIS MINERS .but he had a level 3 castle archer. Killed all of my spears. But something changed the game. Guess.

THE TOWER.

The game changer
we then rebuilded our army back in late game (20 mins in game) TOWER with ghost spawn. then i researched ghost spawn 2. well.....
He surrendered. :P

so last stand kinda gives you some hope. dont despair, there is always hope. a fools hope

Back to topoic, i still wanna know how many spears can kill a giant without support

Nice!! Goodjob. A person who has really good control with his giants wudnt have let u killed em all tho ;). Just sayin, and as for your question. Idk, you can test it out. BUT REMEMBER. A game is never that simple, he will have other units and reinforcing units :)




I'm in a dilemma now...should I thank you for shutting up all those whiners...or should I kill you for creating what will be the same style everybody in order uses from now on?

Ahh but you see, the longer the early game drags on, the more variety of units that will be availble since your economy is growing at the same time!! Basically the first person to waste 1500 gold on a giant would eventually lose because that gold cudve been put into other units to control the tower. See? :)

Westwind
01-13-2013, 12:14 AM
Ahh but you see, the longer the early game drags on, the more variety of units that will be availble since your economy is growing at the same time!! Basically the first person to waste 1500 gold on a giant would eventually lose because that gold cudve been put into other units to control the tower. See? :)

Yes you do have a point, and I'll admit you did one hell of a good job in your OP.

Guess I just have mixed feelings about how this will turn out now, time will tell.

xvdaemonicxv
01-13-2013, 12:20 AM
If anything, this allows everyones skill level to increase and thus, people will constantly have to come up with newer strategies and counters. Making this game much more fun.

IF they have a new patch where they alter giants in some way, then I will adapt and learn a new strategy. But as of now, they havent, and I just gave everyone the key to winning almost every match.

*the only losses i have now are due to that glitch (http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?49409-Gamebreaking-Bug-Glitch). Hehehe x)

And thank you for that compliment westwind. :)

3FFA
01-13-2013, 04:52 AM
Very well written. Nice read overall. Hmm... only things I need to ask now: How do you counter daemon's counter to this counter? What is daemon's counter to this counter? Is daemon the master? :o

Seriously though, well done. I had figured this out while I was sick and speculating over the game. Also, before I was sick, I played around in the campaign quite a bit and realized the change that 75gold made :3

xvdaemonicxv
01-13-2013, 05:00 AM
Very well written. Nice read overall. Hmm... only things I need to ask now: How do you counter daemon's counter to this counter? What is daemon's counter to this counter? Is daemon the master? :o

Seriously though, well done. I had figured this out while I was sick and speculating over the game. Also, before I was sick, I played around in the campaign quite a bit and realized the change that 75gold made :3

Then that my friends will be a great game overall. Counter upon counter upon counter for the tower. One person will mess up eventually. Between making miners and setting them to work; mining gold or collecting mana;making spearton or making sword or albotross;positioning units;retreat or attack;garrison to heal or stay and kill; one person will mess up eventually. :D

uberman
01-13-2013, 06:38 AM
Fantastic OP, you make a great case.
Forgive me for trimming, but I am interested in point 5



5.Here is why: Because you guys are getting pressured WAY FASTER than before in the early game. The rate at which you can make swordraths and archers have increased dramatically. People who take advantage of this probably pressure you into hiding in your base while they hold tower. To put it simply, you've already lost the game, and earlier too.


That is all for now. NOW SHUT THE F*** UP ABOUT GIANT SPAMMING.

*same tactic can be used for choas... I think. Idk I don't play choas, you guys are on your own 8D.
*Also do not argue with me cause I am/was rank 1 so I know everything there is to know and everything you say that counters my argument is wrong. Jk, please feel free to ask any questions.

Point 5 highlights a particular issue for chaos. (*I know you dont play chaos.)
Chaos can only build two early units, crawlers or bombers, and cant build them at the same time as they are both in the same queue.
Order can build swords and bow from the start, symultaneously.

In the time chaos has one crawler and a second almost built, order has sword and archer and will obviously force chaos to garison all or die - one or two crawlers cant defeat a sword and archer unless the sword and archer are played very baddly. Seems almost inevitable that order will get the tower and force chaos to turtle, if he supresses the chaos economy, its had to come back from there - As you say 'the game is lost and earlier' - this is because order can put out two military units symultaneously, but chaos only one. (early units meaning ones easily available at the start, with gold only.
Doubly so for chaos, who's only real game plan has to be early agression to subdue the order economy and dominate early.

The issue has always existed, but before the miner patch order paid a heavier price in economic set back. Now, the first 150 from the first 2 miners (assuming he goes sword and archer) comes faster, giving him the third miner faster, and he for sure has the tower, giving him an economic advantage, as well as a military one.

FFS.
Its as if the game designers dont want people to pay to play chaos - Now I hope somebody is going to respond to this with a counter argument and show why this thinking is in error (and no, 'STFU chaos = pay 2 win' does not count as a counter argument :) ).

I do understand the philosophy that chaos should not be seriously over powered compared to order. I do understand that well played chaos can be powerful. But I simply fail to understand why chaos has so many dificulties to face.

It is not a good marketing plan; chaos should be at least as good, if not slightly better than order, if its pay to play - from a marketing point of view - Why is saying that some kind of crime?

Sorry if I stray off topic about chaos, but it is on topic as chaos has to prevent giants before they are feasible, once they are up, game over.

xvdaemonicxv
01-13-2013, 06:44 AM
uberman my friend. Wyzdm and I have been testing and practicing for days upon days. I still have beat him everytime. Sadly you are right, a person who knows how to play order can and will beat a person who knows how to play choas.

BUT. Each time that we've practiced, Wyzdm has always made some careless mistake in some form or way and each time he has improved and goten closer to beating me. We are still testing. There is just currently no choas player that can beat me, including cc2 cause hes rusty as hell and hasn't even played with the new patch.

Btw: It's not sword archer that works ;) The crawlers can just harass your economy. I don't want to go into details but trust me, ive tested. sword archer doesnt work, not against a choas player with equal skill/control.

uberman
01-13-2013, 07:00 AM
uberman my friend. Wyzdm and I have been testing and practicing for days upon days. I still have beat him everytime. Sadly you are right, a person who knows how to play order can and will beat a person who knows how to play choas.

BUT. Each time that we've practiced, Wyzdm has always made some careless mistake in some form or way and each time he has improved and goten closer to beating me. We are still testing. There is just currently no choas player that can beat me, including cc2 cause hes rusty as hell and hasn't even played with the new patch.

Btw: It's not sword archer that works ;) The crawlers can just harass your economy. I don't want to go into details but trust me, ive tested. sword archer doesnt work, not against a choas player with equal skill/control.

Thanks for not raging at me :) Obviously, I dont try to claim to be as good as either you or WysDM, and I read with interest and respect your wise words.

I would love for you to go into details in PM, if you dont want to do so in an open post.
I have been considering alternatives to the crawler start, which obviously means a bomber start to try wreck his eco early.
I havent put it into practice yet though - having a job and a family gets in the way of my gaming sometimes :)

DragonFrost
01-13-2013, 11:13 AM
Daemon, your other thread disappeared. So i will tell you what i saw from the replay on that thread.
First, daemon gets 1 archer 1 sword. Other dude gets 1 archer 1 miner. Daemon kills the archer, kills a miner. Retreats to middle. Makes 5 miners and some swords. Miners just stand around. Daemon charges, kills all miners and swords of opponent, attacks statue. Enemy gets castle archer. Daemon's units die. Daemon builds 10 miners. Opponent surrenders....

Soomehow, I dont think that is the real battle XD

xvdaemonicxv
01-13-2013, 12:31 PM
I delted it cause I had to make some changes. It is up now though and no... that is not the real battle xD

DragonFrost
01-13-2013, 12:56 PM
That's what I thought XD

CRAZY JAY
01-13-2013, 01:23 PM
Great Post Deamonicxv I was getting to the point where I would have to write that out myself but I would say you nailed it.

Bladed Fire
01-13-2013, 04:47 PM
So, since CRAZY JAY said that, we should spam giants after we won them. JK

ShadowyWhisper
01-13-2013, 05:16 PM
Sorry for such an obnoxious title post. But I hope this has captured your attention and that you are now reading this.

Giant Spamming in regards to this new patch:

The only complaints I've been seeing are that there seems to be more giant spammers. I shall address this:

1. Before this patch each miner would bring in 150 gold each time, thus when two miners get back you get 300 gold. With the more miners u have the amount of gold u get is more(per trip). This is why before this patch you mightve seen spearton rushing more. 3 miners, 450 gold. Easy.

2. Refer to point one. But this also means that giant spamming was more common BEFORE this patch because you would get gold in bulk. Giant 1500 gold. 10 miners return.

3. The rate of income is the same as stated by Brock.

4. SO WHY DOES IT SEEM LIKE THERES MORE GIANT SPAMMERS?

5.Here is why: Because you guys are getting pressured WAY FASTER than before in the early game. The rate at which you can make swordraths and archers have increased dramatically. People who take advantage of this probably pressure you into hiding in your base while they hold tower. To put it simply, you've already lost the game, and earlier too.

6. Refer to point 5. Usually when I do that, the other player gets castle archers and walls. If I continue to make smaller units, speartons, archidons, archers, swords, mage, etc. The splash damage taken from the castle archers is too much and would drag the game on indefinetly. So... I make giants. I giant spam for a quicker victory.

7. Note what I said in point 5. "You've already lost the game, and earlier too" You have lost to a giant spammer not because of the giants, but because you lost in the early stages of the game. BEFORE THERE WERE ANY GIANTS ON THE FIELD. THE EARLIER YOU TURTLE UP. THE EARLIER THE OPPONENT STARTS MAKING GIANTS TO BREAK YOUR CASTLE ARCHER+ARMY DEFENDING.

Giant spamming in general... and how to defeat it so you guys can all shut up and so I can have more of a challenge:

1. As stated above, it is not the the giant spamming that wins the game, it's the fact you allowed him to giant spam and you've allowed him to do that because you lost early game.

2. Something you guys should all notice about losing to a giant spammer. The fact you lost everything else before the giants. (This is probably 90% of the time)

You probably did not have the tower
You probably did not have the scouting information to see what your opponent was making
Your opponent knew exactly what you were doing and if he was in a safe enough position to spend 1500 gold on a giant and have to wait for it to finish completing and then move it all the way across the field
The point I am making above is that with the production of the first giant, the giant spammer is very vulnerable.


3. As stated above in point number 2. We can all agree making a giant is costly and takes a long time and its slow. If you are against making giants then that means you are able to make ANY OTHER UNIT faster AND MOVE THEM TO THE TOWER faster before the first giant arrives. That also means you shud be able to mass units faster.

4. In regards to point number 3, if you still don't have the tower, you're doing it wrong and that's why you're losing.

5. One giant on its own is very weak. I have not tested but it takes A LOT of rocks to kill a spearton. A few speartons or even a mass of swordraths+rage can easily take down that one giant your opponent will probably have out.

6. Your opponent will retreat and try and save the one giant and possibly wait for his second giant to finish (IF he's a giant spammer). His one giant is slow, chase him down. Also here's another possibilty. Harass his miners while the giant is trying to run back to base.

7. If you've done everything correctly so far, you have ghost/tower and your opponent is on the defensive. Position your army right outside of his base where your ranged units can easily take out the 2nd row of gold miners. This will slow down your opponents gold immensly. Slow down giant production, force him to make other units to defend. If he doesnt make other units, Keep pressuring him. 2-3giants does not do that much damage against a mass of speartons,swords,archers, whatever you decided to make.

8. If your opponent gets castle archer and has giants defending, well, heres the dilema, the only way to break a turtler is to giant spam yourself. Start sacrficing a few troops and get giants yourself. Remeber, you have ghost tower AND your opponent shudnt be able to mine from his 2nd row of gold. Get giants/clerics yourself.

*ofc you can also decide not to giant spam and only get 2-3 giants. But do you really wana risk facing w.e army he has defending + a constant hail of lv 3 castle archer? If you don't finish him off, you're army would be seriously injured due to castle archer+his defending army. He/She may then move his army out and kill your army or take tower back. And you've just lost the upper hand and the victory you couldve had if u just "giant spammed". Of course you can still win with 2-3 giants depending on your opponents skill level, but it would be risky. unesccarily risky.

9. Win the game.

10.Oh no! I resorted to giant spamming to win D; This breaks all my personal morals and ethics. I can't do this! I have wronged myself.

11.Correction: You won and fought back the tower with your superb skill of controling archidons/ninjas/clerics/swords/mage/speartons/etc. You forced your opponent into turtling at his base. You killed his gold production. You only spammed giants because your opponent is stubborn enough to not surrender even though he has obviously lost the game.

Sidenote in reference to point 11:

Please don't be that asshole where you get castle archer level 3 and miner walls and an army to try and defend in the hopes of you coming back and winning. You won't. So just surrender. As much fun as it is watching my army of giants crushing your pitiful last stand and you complaining of giant massing and how I have no skill, and calling me derogatory names. It gets kinda old when the past 20 players I defeated did the same thing.

That is all for now. NOW SHUT THE F*** UP ABOUT GIANT SPAMMING.

*same tactic can be used for choas... I think. Idk I don't play choas, you guys are on your own 8D.
*Also do not argue with me cause I am/was rank 1 so I know everything there is to know and everything you say that counters my argument is wrong. Jk, please feel free to ask any questions.

-Giant massing is simply a means to finish off an opponent which you have already beat. How you beat him in the first place is where the skill comes in.

This is EXACTLY correct. Win the early game, and you have already pretty much won. Sometimes the only course is to spam Giants. I don't quite understand people who think spamming Giants is so stupid when they have no way to defeat it. IF YOU CAN'T DEFEAT IT THAT MEANS IT IS THE BEST STRATEGY. USE IT.

I'm not saying it's the best strategy, but if you think it is, then use it. Guaranteed no resistance from your opponent, right? Wrong. Capture the middle, pressure his economy and army, and win. That's all I'm going to say.

Brotherhood
01-13-2013, 08:12 PM
If someone giant masses and I couldn't kill his economy in the beginning, I just spearton rush his statue :P

xvdaemonicxv
01-13-2013, 08:44 PM
haha yes ive lost 2 games like that, but i've learned to be able to tell when something is fishy ;P

WyzDM
01-13-2013, 09:37 PM
uberman my friend. Wyzdm and I have been testing and practicing for days upon days. I still have beat him everytime. Sadly you are right, a person who knows how to play order can and will beat a person who knows how to play choas.

BUT. Each time that we've practiced, Wyzdm has always made some careless mistake in some form or way and each time he has improved and goten closer to beating me. We are still testing. There is just currently no choas player that can beat me, including cc2 cause hes rusty as hell and hasn't even played with the new patch.

Btw: It's not sword archer that works ;) The crawlers can just harass your economy. I don't want to go into details but trust me, ive tested. sword archer doesnt work, not against a choas player with equal skill/control.

This is true. However, one nice improvement for a chaos start is the ability to go 2 miners 2 crawlers at the starting queue, instead of 1 and 3. By the time the two miners get back, your second crawler is just about to go up and you can add another to the queue, improving the start now from only 1 miner to 2, being able to mass more bombers/crawlers. EVEN STILL, order players can mass more swordwrath as well, and turning to bombers does not always succeed. A huge setback with Daemon and I is that many of our games have poor connection (we are on opposites of the freakin planet for goodness' sake), but even so he has very good spacing ability with swordwrath and is able to thoroughly pressure my base enough for me to cave into defeat. Any other chaos start can be countered by the same thing: more swordwrath. I'm still testing different theories, and Daemon is still the only player to give my chaos a really rough time about everytime (you rascal), but it's enough for me to realize that order can and will beat chaos if the start is played right.

On Topic: I'm surprised no one has mentioned chaos giants. While they deal damage to a spear area, they again can be EASILY countered. They lack projectiles, and the slow moving speed makes them susceptible to different approaches at eliminating them, even in masses. HOWEVER: an army of chaos giants will defeat an equal and sometimes greater army of order giants. So again, just use the above helpful tips and you should be on your way.




If someone giant masses and I couldn't kill his economy in the beginning, I just spearton rush his statue :P

haha yes ive lost 2 games like that, but i've learned to be able to tell when something is fishy ;P

NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF A FULL ON SPEARTON RUSH.

xvdaemonicxv
01-13-2013, 09:52 PM
A huge setback with Daemon and I is that many of our games have poor connection (we are on opposites of the freakin planet for goodness' sake), but even so he has very good spacing ability with swordwrath and is able to thoroughly pressure my base enough for me to cave into defeat. Any other chaos start can be countered by the same thing: more swordwrath. I'm still testing different theories, and Daemon is still the only player to give my chaos a really rough time about everytime (you rascal), but it's enough for me to realize that order can and will beat chaos if the start is played right.



Tbh, I might just be winning because of the connection issues.. x)

WyzDM
01-13-2013, 10:03 PM
Tbh, I might just be winning because of the connection issues.. x)



I doubt it, there have been closer games with other players, but I've managed only because I just have good-know how I guess. Predicting actions is one thing, preventing or countering is another. And I can't do that with you.

Yet.

uberman
01-14-2013, 06:53 AM
This is true. However, one nice improvement for a chaos start is the ability to go 2 miners 2 crawlers at the starting queue, instead of 1 and 3. By the time the two miners get back, your second crawler is just about to go up and you can add another to the queue, improving the start now from only 1 miner to 2, being able to mass more bombers/crawlers.

Yes, thats a fact.


EVEN STILL, order players can mass more swordwrath as well, and turning to bombers does not always succeed. A huge setback with Daemon and I is that many of our games have poor connection (we are on opposites of the freakin planet for goodness' sake), but even so he has very good spacing ability with swordwrath and is able to thoroughly pressure my base enough for me to cave into defeat. Any other chaos start can be countered by the same thing: more swordwrath. I'm still testing different theories, and Daemon is still the only player to give my chaos a really rough time about everytime (you rascal), but it's enough for me to realize that order can and will beat chaos if the start is played right.

Obviously, I am not at the level of having to face Daemon (or having to worry about trying to beat him, anyway). So, if you could explain to us lesser chaos players how best to deal with lesser order players, that would be great sharing and help improve the quality of play.
Specifically;
1. any tips for establishing control of the tower early on
2. any tips for dealing with his wall and castle archers once you force him to turtle
3. any tips for dealing with enslaved giants, once he has some up.

Typically, what often happens when I lose a game I should win is; I get control of the tower, but seem to take heavy losses doing hit-and-run to subdue his economy if he has castle archers/walls.
He gets a giant up, behind his wall and covered by castle archers, at which point I cant hit-and-run without losing at least 1 jugger each run - the giant stuns it from behind the wall, and I cant do much.
Then he can build enough giants to walk out and destroy me.

Would a good plan be; stop hit and run, build a marrowkai or two to reap his giant or unit, build a couple of chaos giants to kill the reaped unit.
I dont expect a move by move strategy, but a few guiding principles would be really helpful.



On Topic: I'm surprised no one has mentioned chaos giants. While they deal damage to a spear area, they again can be EASILY countered. They lack projectiles, and the slow moving speed makes them susceptible to different approaches at eliminating them, even in masses. HOWEVER: an army of chaos giants will defeat an equal and sometimes greater army of order giants. So again, just use the above helpful tips and you should be on your way.






NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF A FULL ON SPEARTON RUSH.

Or full on Juggerknight rush :)

xvdaemonicxv
01-14-2013, 07:36 AM
The only I can say as a order player is that... REAPERS/MARROWKI FKS MY GIANT UP SO HARD. So yes. That is a WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY better plan. :) Wyzdm will answer specifics :)

uberman
01-14-2013, 07:42 AM
The only I can say as a order player is that... REAPERS/MARROWKI FKS MY GIANT UP SO HARD. So yes. That is a WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY better plan. :) Wyzdm will answer specifics :)

Thanks for the feedback :)

uberman
01-14-2013, 07:53 AM
got it :)

Reaper Rev
01-14-2013, 11:41 AM
I won't play until the game is balanced again.

uberman
01-14-2013, 12:04 PM
I won't play until the game is balanced again.

Care to be a bit more specific?

ShadowyWhisper
01-14-2013, 01:49 PM
If someone giant masses and I couldn't kill his economy in the beginning, I just spearton rush his statue :P

Alright, there is a problem with this. I just won a game HILARIOUS, by the way.

Setup for my army:

7 Giants in middle

2 Merics

At base:

10 SwordWrath with Rage

5 Spearton

0 Miners

2 Walls

2 Castle Archers

My opponent probably had about 15 Spearton or so, and he was waiting for me to attack with Giants (he thought that was all I had). If he just rushed past I could hit the defend button immediately and still kill his Spearton. But he DIDNT know of my defense back at my base, so I attacked with Giants only and kept the SwordWrath and Speartons in Shield Wall in front of the first Miner Wall. He rushed past, having 6 stunned, but 9 of them made it out. 9 is enough, but not in my defense.

First, I used Shield Bash to stun them, then Rage to kill them. Since he was only targeting the walls, I suffered no casualties and his Spearton were dead in 10 sec.

3FFA
01-14-2013, 03:25 PM
Ok? I don't see your problem.

WyzDM
01-14-2013, 04:12 PM
1) Have the reaper target the Giant, use the ground smash (fists from the dead thingy) if you have the gold to spare (otherwise build juggers/giants of your own). If they have merics, target them first.

2) keep your juggers in front of your wingdom (if you're using any, which I do for a nice air game), or in front of reapers. Reapers move slow, so keep them further back and only have them run in to target the giant.

3) Although medusas can't kill giants with the stone ability, IT DOES MASSIVE DAMAGE (even to the statue). Use these to rid of merics or giants.

This is how you can ward off any giant in the middle, so you can take tower and get a giant of your own as chaos.

DragonFrost
01-14-2013, 04:19 PM
So, mass medusa, marrowkai, meat shields and maybe some wingadons is good against mass giants?
P.s. you spelled many units' names wrong XD

xvdaemonicxv
01-14-2013, 08:35 PM
One point I would like to make to my fellow "giant massers". Beware of a timing push of flying crowssbowman. Even if you do make your giant, a well timed push by a turtler(he's not turtling in this case, he's buying time) can fuck your day up.

BASICALLY IM SAYING DONT GIANT MASS. IT WONT WORK AGAINST A SMART OPPONENT WHO KNOWS A GOOD TIMING PUSH. SEE EVERYONE? GIANT MASSING ISNT A PROBLEM. YOU JUST DONT KNOW HOW TO PLAY.

(I lost to a rank 1600 who did this. Lost like 30 points thus the caps lock to try and make a point that if a 1600 can do it. You just suck if you can't. LOL JK. YOu can too <3. I couldnt help myself on that one cause I was thinking most people would expect me to say "you can too" :) so I changed it up on ya'll.... i'm bored and talking to myself)

DragonFrost
01-14-2013, 08:47 PM
What's a timing push????

xvdaemonicxv
01-14-2013, 09:27 PM
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Timing_Attack :). I shall add this in the OP also.

3FFA
01-14-2013, 09:49 PM
You stole my thing.... I feel insulted.

xvdaemonicxv
01-14-2013, 10:05 PM
Yes, it was 3ffa who showed me this site :P.

SHARE THE KNOWLEDGE ;)

ShadowyWhisper
01-15-2013, 05:49 PM
Yes, it was 3ffa who showed me this site :P.

SHARE THE KNOWLEDGE ;)

Sorry, but does this website have anything to do with SE? Oh, WyZdM replaced you.

EDIT: I only read 3 words so don't criticize or anything.

DragonFrost
01-15-2013, 05:56 PM
Woah? Wyzdm is now rank 1? That's great! Yesterday he was rank 2, but cc2 is gone for now...
P.s. I beat wyzdm yesterday XD

xvdaemonicxv
01-15-2013, 07:10 PM
Sorry, but does this website have anything to do with SE? Oh, and my pal WyZdM replaced you.

Sorry maybe you can't read. But it perfectly explains what a timing attack is. Timing attacks can also be used in SE.

And It's hard to tell what your tone of voice is, but based on your wording and the fact you obviously didn't even bother to read what I posted(either that, or you can't read), I'm going to assume it's a hostile one. And "your pal" WyzDM and I are good friends. We're in the same clan actually and I was the one who taught him when he first started. Just thought you'd like to know since your pals and all.

XJAWZ
01-16-2013, 01:36 PM
hello, what's your friend number? (I assume your name is xvdaemonicxv)
You seem to be very good at the game.

ShadowyWhisper
01-16-2013, 02:22 PM
Sorry maybe you can't read. But it perfectly explains what a timing attack is. Timing attacks can also be used in SE.

And It's hard to tell what your tone of voice is, but based on your wording and the fact you obviously didn't even bother to read what I posted(either that, or you can't read), I'm going to assume it's a hostile one. And "your pal" WyzDM and I are good friends. We're in the same clan actually and I was the one who taught him when he first started. Just thought you'd like to know since your pals and all.

Lol I meant to say that to CaptainCorps but I think he's a bit... well I saw a faked account I'm guessing since it said banned on the title. And yes, I can read otherwise I would not have won numerous essay contests...

And I actually only read (and read is PAST TENSE FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO OFFEND OTHERS like me) 3 words :P

xvdaemonicxv
01-16-2013, 07:53 PM
hello, what's your friend number? (I assume your name is xvdaemonicxv)
You seem to be very good at the game.

My number is 621. If I am ever on you can find me here at my clan website. http://stickempiressonsofsaints.webs.com/


Lol I meant to say that to CaptainCorps but I think he's a bit... well I saw a faked account I'm guessing since it said banned on the title. And yes, I can read otherwise I would not have won numerous essay contests...

And I actually only read (and read is PAST TENSE FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO OFFEND OTHERS like me) 3 words :P

your argument is valid. I respect you then good sir.

XJAWZ
01-17-2013, 03:33 PM
My number is 621. If I am ever on you can find me here at my clan website. http://stickempiressonsofsaints.webs.com/

Thanks

WheresMyCheetos
02-03-2013, 07:17 AM
But sometimes (really rare time) i turtled in my base while fighting 8 giants. i was making my last stand, ready for the taste of defeat as he killed all of my miners who was defending the base. BUT! I RETALIATED AND KILLED ALL 8 GIANTS AT ONCE AND I PROCCEDED TO KILL ALL OF HIS MINERS .but he had a level 3 castle archer. Killed all of my spears. But something changed the game. Guess.

THE TOWER.

The game changer
we then rebuilded our army back in late game (20 mins in game) TOWER with ghost spawn. then i researched ghost spawn 2. well.....
He surrendered. :P

so last stand kinda gives you some hope. dont despair, there is always hope. a fools hope

Back to topoic, i still wanna know how many spears can kill a giant without support

True one time I had 5 speartons and 5 albows. HE had 1 giant and 6 speartons he killed all my speartons by the time we got behide my miners wall.
now i gave up i knew i was gonna lose so i continued to buy albows for no reason. When i at 8 he rushed with 2 giants and his speartons. I killed the forcing the giant in retreat. I dished out half of the giants hp.WHen my ghost went to spy he had 3! So basiclly i bought speartons with wall and tons of albows and he got killed in like 4 seconds

So if your oppoent doesnt attack when your building up after a heavy blow, There is the smallest chance

_Ai_
02-03-2013, 07:25 AM
Great bump, Cheetos. Lol

WheresMyCheetos
02-03-2013, 08:10 AM
LOL i did'nt even know i was bumping XD _Aimen_ wanna add meh on SE?

DragonFrost
02-03-2013, 08:11 AM
Wheresmycheetos are you top 100? Your name seems familiar...

WheresMyCheetos
02-03-2013, 10:30 AM
Yea I think you might know me from _Aimen_ tournament. No I have not reached rank 100 but im close my rating is 1703.
Wanna add me on SE my code is 259

ShadowyWhisper
02-03-2013, 03:03 PM
Lol, my other number in SolitaryFear is 258 xD

malbence
02-03-2013, 03:26 PM
Wasn't SolitaryFear one of the alts of that DarknessLight guy a while back?

DragonFrost
02-03-2013, 05:40 PM
Yes, and ShadowyWhisper is SolitaryFear, DarknessLight, etc.

KillerPixel
02-03-2013, 05:52 PM
Yes, and ShadowyWhisper is SolitaryFear, DarknessLight, etc.

He has very dark names doesn't he...... Except from the last one, I can't decide if it's negative or not....

WheresMyCheetos
02-03-2013, 06:06 PM
Yes, and ShadowyWhisper is SolitaryFear, DarknessLight, etc.

Those are very dark names...................... Scary, Im scared now XD

ShadowyWhisper
02-03-2013, 06:51 PM
Yeah, I definitely should not have posted that. I'm no longer going to use any other accounts, just so you know.

WheresMyCheetos
02-03-2013, 08:03 PM
Frost whats your number? I wanna battle you and lose XD

DragonFrost
02-03-2013, 08:34 PM
937, I'll lose due to lag, but I can't play right now. Your code?

WheresMyCheetos
02-03-2013, 09:01 PM
I think I already posted it but whateves 259