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WyzDM
01-18-2013, 10:41 PM
I know there aren't a lot of you out there, and I feel more people browse through here in search of counter-methods against chaos strategies, but nevertheless; I will take the time to read through each post here and answer your questions regarding the chaos empire the best I can. Sometimes I may even be able to provide replays. If you are looking for some new ideas or possible mid game strategies, I'm also willing to test them out. My code is down below in my signature, and you're more then welcome to message me in SE and I'll respond as swiftly as I can.

Before anyone accuses me of only shining the spotlight back on myself after accomplishing top rank on the leadership boards, this has nothing to do with that. Before I was even in the top 50 players, I had come in searching for new ideas and tactics to try and use. The chaos empire requires a lot of control with each unit, and a lot of quick decisions. The start game is the single most important part to any match, and as an early chaos player I had a very hard time with being able to grasp a solid direction to control the field, and even struggled defending my base as early as only a minute into a game. There are very few helpful threads here, and the only real insight I had to any higher level player was watching CC2 on YouTube against his pal MiamiBigAL. Everything else, I had to figure out for myself through trial and error, mostly error. I have the biggest number of losses of any player in the top 10, and second in the top 20 next to VanLang. I do not count these as wasted games, or even scars from attempts of moving up; in every game, I took a piece to reflect on to change my game. I learned how to become adaptive, how to read players, and most importantly, how to counter.

The biggest problem was not understanding my opponent, but understanding what you're able to do and prevent it.

So in this thread I want analyze all points of chaos game. If you have a question on a unit, ask it. A question about how to deal with giants, ask em (although enough's out there in general discussion). But most importantly, if you want the response and guidance of a player who has games and experience under his belt; you got it.

Ask away. And if you wish to contribute to a question asked by someone else, by all means go for it. I could still learn a thing or two from you guys. ;)



REPLAY DATA:

OUTDATED
Replay by Galeforce using cats to attack: http://pastebin.com/xy3RzWrU (02:11)
Replay by WyzDM countering sword-archer on castle: http://tny.cz/8248e6b5 (01:49)
Replay by WyzDM using cats/bombers to attack: http://tny.cz/bc8e3acd (02:26)
Replay by WyzDM using cats/bombers to defeat early swordwrath mass: http://tny.cz/3cbe2e74
Replay by WyzDM using cats/miners for defending: http://tny.cz/84f85c9e WARNING: May freeze at end. (01:26)
Replay by WyzDM fighting for center tower on castle: http://tny.cz/05e63cc8 (05:25)
Replay by WyzDM harassing miners with cats/ghost against castle archer: http://tny.cz/3f6cc69e (03:39)
Replay by WyzDM vs. CaptainCorps2 (Chaos vs Chaos): http://tny.cz/3625b2d2 (06:19)

WORKS

Examples:
Replay by WyzDM using cats/bombers on castle: http://tny.cz/1bf1c62c
Replay by WyzDM versus super turtle (fattycow): http://tny.cz/ed501ffd
Replay by WyzDM versus early giant: http://tny.cz/d2ed3938
Replay by WyzDM using cats/miners to anti short stage rush: http://tny.cz/f978b82a
Replay by WyzDM using Marrowki against giants: http://tny.cz/0fe0fdcf
Replay by WyzDM on Halloween: http://tny.cz/9e3cb726

Matches:
WyzDM versus ZenithxDaemonic: http://tny.cz/694eb64c
WyzDM versus Crimshock: http://tny.cz/92579164
WyzDM versus FattyGoat: http://tny.cz/30e28079
WyzDM versus SomeFatGuy1 (Chaos vs Chaos): http://tny.cz/b35c7ef4
Galeforce versus ZenithxDaemonic (Daemonic wins): http://tny.cz/692822a6
WyzDM versus ChaoticEvil: http://tny.cz/23f335b5
WyzDM versus BuddyLucky2: http://tny.cz/e46feb48

uberman
01-19-2013, 01:00 AM
Congratulations on getting and holding top spot.

Right, now down to business :).

What tips can you offer to improve my early game macro with crawlers?

Currently, I start 2 miners, 2 crawlers and the third crawler with the 150 from the miners (just as second crawler pops) I think this the conventional start after the current patch.
Objectives; secure tower, then hit his economy.
If he's sending swords, I keep doing crawlers until I secure tower - with a miner as cash allows.

But I find my crawlers often die to his swords due to my micro not being good enough. Thats what I know I need to work on, and hence the question I asked.
Against swords, I need better micro.
Against sword&archer I think its better to use bombs, in addition to the early crawlers - any better plan than fall back my crawlers untill I built 2-3 bombers?

WyzDM
01-19-2013, 09:23 AM
What tips can you offer to improve my early game macro with crawlers?

Currently, I start 2 miners, 2 crawlers and the third crawler with the 150 from the miners (just as second crawler pops) I think this the conventional start after the current patch.
Objectives; secure tower, then hit his economy.
If he's sending swords, I keep doing crawlers until I secure tower - with a miner as cash allows.

But I find my crawlers often die to his swords due to my micro not being good enough. Thats what I know I need to work on, and hence the question I asked.
Against swords, I need better micro.
Against sword&archer I think its better to use bombs, in addition to the early crawlers - any better plan than fall back my crawlers untill I built 2-3 bombers?

You never want to go bombs unless he's able to mass swordwrath equal or greater to your crawlers. Remember, bombers are not reusable units and sending them out too early in the game will affect your economy severely. They are also from the same tree as cats, and it's more important to hold a larger number of cats before resorting to retreat with bombers.

Remember, while making cats, any extra gold you should put to something outside of that tree; eventually you will be able to make miners and cats. Since you have more miners than your opponent (assuming is he swordwrath massing), if he chargers your base you can have the miners and cats retaliate, and that number together will force him to retreat. If you lose a miner, don't worry, if you started with four you're still better economically (and if he went archer-swordwrath, it's an even greater advantage from an economic standpoint).

Remember, the trick with cats is not to directly engage early in the game with his swordwrath. Cats are speedy, and perfect units for hits and runs. While continuing to mass cats (or bombers if you see him still building units) make sure you select ALL of your cat units to be running to his base, attack a miner, force them to either retreat or attack (putting them off of collecting gold) and when his army catches up to you, run back to the center. Keep doing this until you're able to make more powerful units: deads,juggers or wingdoms. At least one of any of those should force him to retreat, granting you center for now.

Just remember not to turn to bombers out of panic. Those types of macros will affect your mid-game economy and army very seriously.

uberman
01-20-2013, 03:39 AM
Thanks for the response.

Two question;
1. If he starts sword and archer, what should my response be?
Because his units construct at the same time, he reaches the tower with sword and archer before my second crawler does.
I would normally retreat. Prior to your response, I would have cancelled the third crawler, and built 2-3 bombs to kill his archer (with my 2 crawlers and 2-3 bombs).
You are suggesting to stick with crawlers, so attack his archer with the 3 crawlers while trying to build more - right?

2. Can you put up a replay of you using chaos to kill giants in the OP? I think you said you have you vs Fatty... in a 20minute epic - culminating in a chaos giant vs e-gaint battle. If thats currupted, maybe record the next time you end up fighting giants. It would be useful for we chaos players to see how to deal with e-giants, once they are up.
I know 'its all about micro' but it would be good to see in being done well.

Thanks for your patience with the noobie questions.

WyzDM
01-20-2013, 09:24 AM
1. If he starts sword and archer, what should my response be?
Because his units construct at the same time, he reaches the tower with sword and archer before my second crawler does.
I would normally retreat. Prior to your response, I would have cancelled the third crawler, and built 2-3 bombs to kill his archer (with my 2 crawlers and 2-3 bombs).
You are suggesting to stick with crawlers, so attack his archer with the 3 crawlers while trying to build more - right?

Take a look at the replay from Galeforce, he essentially captures the idea of how to anti.


2. Can you put up a replay of you using chaos to kill giants in the OP? I think you said you have you vs Fatty... in a 20minute epic - culminating in a chaos giant vs e-gaint battle. If thats currupted, maybe record the next time you end up fighting giants. It would be useful for we chaos players to see how to deal with e-giants, once they are up.
I know 'its all about micro' but it would be good to see in being done well.

I was going to include it but after watching it I realized it was out of sync; my wingdoms were coming a full second BEFORE my ghost to get clobbered, and then I randomly started sending my own giants to his base. If I manage to get a better replay, I'll put it here.

The goal is not let your opponent have so much time, but it was Green Hills...

With big stages, pressure with some early units but if he's holding out, you'll be forced to go giants eventually. Holding that tower is equally important.

uberman
01-20-2013, 11:06 PM
Wow, just awsome, well played!
I watched the replay above where you wipe out his swords mass with bombs. Impressive, and excellently micro'd. I know it can be done in theory, nice to see it done in fact.
(I think its the one called 'using cats and bombers to attack')

I am guessing you are using the new hot-keys to switch between controling the crawlers and bombers?



Take a look at the replay from Galeforce, he essentially captures the idea of how to anti.

He starts off by not advancing the first crawler to the tower, and not advancing till he has 3 crawlers (cats), (not sure if its a staged event, where he knows its a sword archer incoming, or if thats his normal starting move). I normally used to advance the first crawler to claim the tower, but if he goes archer when I am doing that, its too easy to take an arrow or two before retreating to regroup with the new crawlers(because of being distracted doing early miners and units).
I have started to go half way between these two options, and find it easier. When I have 2 crawlers, I advance them both to claim tower, while the third one arrives, then attack miners if there is no resistance and he has no castle archer, or retreat to group all crawlers if there are units coming up. This avoids my first crawler getting into trouble while I am distracted doing the early miners/units, but also lets me both own the tower and launch a first raid on miners early, so as to either subdue his eco, or force him to build a castle archer before his eco can really suport it (which slows down his early eco development).

I know in an ideal case I would claim the tower with the first crawler, for the extra few seconds of ownership and pull back if he brings up units - but its so important not to get the early crawlers damaged. Also, if he went sword and archer, he has advanced so we fight near my miners, which lets me put miners on his sword while I put my (3) cats on his archer.
BTW, I love the hot-keys for selecting units, seems more reliable than double click; ctrl-2 (crawlers) click to attack archer, ctrl-1 (miners) click to attack sword.

There is another key point in fighting sword and archer at my base rather than the tower - which has only just become apparent to me. At my base, he's almost always going to put his sword on my miners while his archer attacks them from further back (thats why he's at my base with sword and archer!), meaning I can fight the sword with miners but more important, the sword not protecting his archer. So my cats can harass his archer, without his sword killing the cats. Whereas, if fighting at the tower, he will put his sword on my cats, and the sword and archer will probably kill most or all of the cats before the archer dies, cats cant hit and run against the archer because of his range. This was why I was getting into trouble; crawlers can only beat sword and archer by splitting up sword and archer so they can safely kill (or chase off) the archer.

Its not perfectly efficient, but it seems to match my level of micro skills at the moment. It allows me to counter what was beating me before (sword and archer start by order, always seemed to have me in trouble).
Thanks for putting up that replay.

WyzDM
01-20-2013, 11:54 PM
I watched the replay above where you wipe out his swords mass with bombs. Impressive, and excellently micro'd. I know it can be done in theory, nice to see it done in fact.
(I think its the one called 'using cats and bombers to attack')

I am guessing you are using the new hot-keys to switch between controlling the crawlers and bombers?

I'm still not fully adjusted, and in serious games do a lot of things with my mouse. The trick is to have control over which unit is more valuable/imperative to eliminating enemy units be in constant control. If you noticed, I let go of my cats, just told them to attack then sent the bombers to the nice clump.



He starts off by not advancing the first crawler to the tower, and not advancing till he has 3 crawlers (cats), (not sure if its a staged event, where he knows its a sword archer incoming, or if that's his normal starting move). I normally used to advance the first crawler to claim the tower, but if he goes archer when I am doing that, its too easy to take an arrow or two before retreating to regroup with the new crawlers(because of being distracted doing early miners and units).
I have started to go half way between these two options, and find it easier. When I have 2 crawlers, I advance them both to claim tower, while the third one arrives, then attack miners if there is no resistance and he has no castle archer, or retreat to group all crawlers if there are units coming up. This avoids my first crawler getting into trouble while I am distracted doing the early miners/units, but also lets me both own the tower and launch a first raid on miners early, so as to either subdue his eco, or force him to build a castle archer before his eco can really support it (which slows down his early eco development).

This is something that just takes practice.



There is another key point in fighting sword and archer at my base rather than the tower - which has only just become apparent to me. At my base, he's almost always going to put his sword on my miners while his archer attacks them from further back (thats why he's at my base with sword and archer!), meaning I can fight the sword with miners but more important, the sword not protecting his archer. So my cats can harass his archer, without his sword killing the cats. Whereas, if fighting at the tower, he will put his sword on my cats, and the sword and archer will probably kill most or all of the cats before the archer dies, cats cant hit and run against the archer because of his range. This was why I was getting into trouble; crawlers can only beat sword and archer by splitting up sword and archer so they can safely kill (or chase off) the archer.

Its not perfectly efficient, but it seems to match my level of micro skills at the moment. It allows me to counter what was beating me before (sword and archer start by order, always seemed to have me in trouble).
Thanks for putting up that replay.
Try selecting the cat that's in the most trouble or under attack. Just have it run back and if they chase, cats will do damage (because they're faster) and you can use your miners. Or, what happens more often, they're forced to switch to another cat, and you repeat the process (be sure to bring that other cat back in the fight with the quickly restored health).

Glad this is helping you out.

DragonFrost
01-22-2013, 10:10 AM
How would chaos users counter spearton rush (the one where they mass speartons and charge at statue)and how do they counter allow mass?

WyzDM
01-22-2013, 10:42 AM
How would chaos users counter spearton rush (the one where they mass speartons and charge at statue)and how do they counter allow mass?

An early spearton means their economy is weak. The solution would be to use the cats speed and harass the economy. If the spearton ignores the threat at his base and proceeds to charge the chaos player's base, the cats will to more damage to the statue than the spearton will.


Early spearton in any advanced play with any empire is a doomed plan.

DragonFrost
01-22-2013, 05:17 PM
Read the bracketed... I did that so you wouldn't Misunderstand but you still did :/
What I meant: they turtle (sometimes) and mass speartons. Once they have a bunch, they charge at statue and destroy it ASAP.

WyzDM
01-22-2013, 06:09 PM
Read the bracketed... I did that so you wouldn't Misunderstand but you still did :/
What I meant: they turtle (sometimes) and mass speartons. Once they have a bunch, they charge at statue and destroy it ASAP.

If they're going to turtle, IMMEDIATELY get ghost spawn 2 to secure having the center tower. From there, you can do a lot of things. I tend to get wingdoms and attack the statue, using my ghost a shield. He'll be forced to bring his units out. You can also keep pressuring with juggers and keep a back up unit in place (giant or medusa). You can also use cats to charge behind the ghost, clearing any miners the ghost isn't on. Assuming he has castle archers, they'll be busy on the ghost, and by the time he turns his attention to cats it will be too late (get cat resources as well).

Tecness2
01-22-2013, 06:20 PM
If they're going to turtle, IMMEDIATELY get ghost spawn 2 to secure having the center tower. From there, you can do a lot of things. I tend to get wingdoms and attack the statue, using my ghost a shield. He'll be forced to bring his units out. You can also keep pressuring with juggers and keep a back up unit in place (giant or medusa). You can also use cats to charge behind the ghost, clearing any miners the ghost isn't on. Assuming he has castle archers, they'll be busy on the ghost, and by the time he turns his attention to cats it will be too late (get cat resources as well).
So, he's going to get walls, I'm assuming castle archer, and a fuck load of speartons. You're brillant idea is to get 2600 + 1200, not including the giant upgrades, while also getting wingadons, while he's massing speartons (which will most likely be done a long time before you are) and then just sit there until he charges out.


Fr0st, get castle dead 3 (yes, 3), 3-5 Marrowkai, about 10 bombers, and research hell fists. Also get the chaos tower if you have enough resources too. That should be more than enough.

WyzDM
01-22-2013, 06:32 PM
So, he's going to get walls, I'm assuming castle archer, and a fuck load of speartons. You're brillant idea is to get 2600 + 1200, not including the giant upgrades, while also getting wingadons, while he's massing speartons (which will most likely be done a long time before you are) and then just sit there until he charges out.


Fr0st, get castle dead 3 (yes, 3), 3-5 Marrowkai, about 10 bombers, and research hell fists. Also get the chaos tower if you have enough resources too. That should be more than enough.

You're planning a defense as chaos, which is absurd. Chaos defense game is useless without walls and multi-damaging castle archers. The giant I would use as a meat-shield. Also, he would have to get miner walls and a castle archer early if he didn't want any pressure from cats. This would really set back his economy.

You never want to go on the defensive, especially if you have control of the tower and he's limiting his gold intake to the first row. I have played against these kind of strategies, and as long as I'm in their base they'll never have a chance to get to mine.

DragonFrost
01-22-2013, 06:53 PM
ok. Another question: What's a good start against someone who masses swords?

WyzDM
01-22-2013, 07:17 PM
Check the replays for an example, but you want to keep making cats the best you can. If he gets 4-5, go bombers, and to keep his army off your base, use the cat's speed to assault theirs first. If he targets your base, you have the tower, so use the gold/your economic advantage (he blew it on swordwrath) to make bombers in the base, and when you get at least 3-4 (insta kill is 5) send em out with your returned cats.

DragonFrost
01-22-2013, 07:22 PM
Ok. I haven't watched them yet, but here's my problem (against crimshock lol):
He sends 2-3 swords, i send 2 crawlers. I lose, so i retreat them, get some random stuff, he retreats, gets better stuff, and reclaims the middle. I lose. :| I am going to watch your replays now :D thx wyzdm
can you make another counter against early sword mass? Because that's my problem and your one is outdated :(

WyzDM
01-22-2013, 07:34 PM
Ok. I haven't watched them yet, but here's my problem (against crimshock lol):
He sends 2-3 swords, i send 2 crawlers. I lose, so i retreat them, get some random stuff, he retreats, gets better stuff, and reclaims the middle. I lose. :| I am going to watch your replays now :D thx wyzdm
can you make another counter against early sword mass? Because that's my problem and your one is outdated :(

Check out the one labeled cats/bombers. It's not my greatest example, as he wasn't as aggressive as he could have been, but it works.

Essentially, make cats until you notice him mass 4-5 swordwrath. Use the cats speed to slip by and harass the economy, giving you ample time to make some bombers and miners. When he comes back to base, kaboom, and make sure miners retaliate if he gets in close.

DragonFrost
01-22-2013, 07:55 PM
Yeah, I saw it. :p Nice job, but i think the opponent spelled teach wrong (he said tech, unless that's what he meant :confused:)

WyzDM
01-22-2013, 08:10 PM
Yeah, I saw it. :p Nice job, but i think the opponent spelled teach wrong (he said tech, unless that's what he meant :confused:)

He did haha.

ShadowyWhisper
01-23-2013, 05:58 PM
Post anything I want? Alright...

What's the best strategy against full Chaos army Giants with a Medusa and Marrowkai and maybe 4 Juggers?

DragonFrost
01-23-2013, 06:45 PM
I suppose that works, but i was under the impression this thread was for chaos HELP against other players, not how to counter chaos. Chaos giants suck (never mass it), and just assassinate the medusa and marrowkai (the ninjas will die, who cares?) get a bunch of speartons, albows and 1-2 magikill. The speartons, not very important lol

PsychoticCheez
01-23-2013, 11:23 PM
The fight vs Miami should also go in outdated. Doesn't work for me

uberman
01-24-2013, 01:27 AM
Hey WyzDM, I have a question;
I saw the replay for harasinf Fatty(pig) with crawlers even tho he has castle archer. You went in behind towerspawn 1.
Can you explain anything about that techique and the mechanism for castle archer target and damage?

I have seen other references to splash damage and pierce damage from castle archer. I know the castle archer damages several crawlers at once (without ghost).

So, I am guessing the extra damage only applies when the original target is a crawler, and not if the original target is the ghost?
Should the cats avoid anything (like, say being behind the ghost in a straight line, or getting infront of the ghost)?
What factors ensure the ghost is the target? Is it simply make sure the ghost is infront until the first arrow hits.

Thanks,

uberman
01-24-2013, 04:13 AM
BTW, in the OP, the link to sword and archer opener actually goes to the same relay as early giant. Both are in fact vs early giant.

WyzDM
01-24-2013, 04:41 AM
What's the best strategy against full Chaos army Giants with a Medusa and Marrowkai and maybe 4 Juggers?

If he has a full army of giants as you say, you may be out of luck with that kind of an army, especially if he's closing in on your base. If you must engage, you would want to poison spray as mesdusa above all else. If you have money, juggers/castle deads and resilience in your best efforts to anti. Position your medusa and marrowkai behind the statue, and alternate between the two for fearing a giant, hell's fists, and using the stone ability. While it won't work on a giant, it does massive damage. Put your juggers in the front to prevent them from hitting the statue. If it is really a full army, you're pretty much toast at this point, but don't say I didn't try.


The fight vs Miami should also go in outdated. Doesn't work for me

Thanks, I've now updated that.


Hey WyzDM, I have a question;
I saw the replay for harasing Fatty(pig) with crawlers even tho he has castle archer. You went in behind towerspawn 1.
Can you explain anything about that technique and the mechanism for castle archer target and damage?

I have seen other references to splash damage and pierce damage from castle archer. I know the castle archer damages several crawlers at once (without ghost).

So, I am guessing the extra damage only applies when the original target is a crawler, and not if the original target is the ghost?
Should the cats avoid anything (like, say being behind the ghost in a straight line, or getting in front of the ghost)?
What factors ensure the ghost is the target? Is it simply make sure the ghost is in front until the first arrow hits.

I go in behind the ghost, so the castle archer initially targets the jugger. As long as I'm far enough away from the ghost, my cats will not take any splash damage from the arrow. You can however target the cats with a castle archer using the spacebar, but that would also leave my jugger to keep running, and my cats would manage to get out OK.



BTW, in the OP, the link to sword and archer opener actually goes to the same relay as early giant. Both are in fact vs early giant.
I realized this, thanks. I'll have to provide some more replays when I can.

uberman
01-24-2013, 05:39 AM
initially targets the jugger. As long as I'm far enough away from the ghost, my cats will not take any splash damage from the arrow. You can however target the cats with a castle archer using the spacebar, but that would also leave my jugger to keep running, and my cats would manage to get out OK.



I didnt know you could target the castle archer like that - thought it was just automatic. Thats handy for spreading castle dead poison if he has some swords on the statue or miners....

Thanks for clearing that up for me about the castle archer - as long as I keep the cats behind on the approach, then not too close to the ghost they should be safe - unless he manually targets them.

DragonFrost
01-24-2013, 07:04 AM
I thought space selected all fighting units, not including the castle archer :confused:

WyzDM
01-24-2013, 08:28 AM
I thought space selected all fighting units, not including the castle archer :confused:

It selects all units, including castle archer.

uberman
01-24-2013, 08:47 AM
Here is another strategy question WysDM;
I have been beaten a few times by lots of archers, Fr0st uses lots of archers and swords, and after I beat Dragon89 (on his alternate account) with wings, we did a rematch and he beat me with speartons and archers.
Now, I know in both cases I didnt attack the enemy miners enough, and was basically outplayed, in that the enemy had tower more than I.

But, what would be the ideal way to come back against an opponent building archers and some swords or spears?

Wings tend to be outdone by the archers, as they can use their troops to shield the archer, but a wing isnt as easy to protect.
Dead would probably be killed by the melee units, as his arcers have much more speed than the dead.

WyzDM
01-24-2013, 08:57 AM
Here is another strategy question WysDM;
I have been beaten a few times by lots of archers, Fr0st uses lots of archers and swords, and after I beat Dragon89 (on his alternate account) with wings, we did a rematch and he beat me with speartons and archers.
Now, I know in both cases I didnt attack the enemy miners enough, and was basically outplayed, in that the enemy had tower more than I.

But, what would be the ideal way to come back against an opponent building archers and some swords or spears?

Wings tend to be outdone by the archers, as they can use their troops to shield the archer, but a wing isnt as easy to protect.
Dead would probably be killed by the melee units, as his arcers have much more speed than the dead.

Ground archers have low health, and only takes 3 bombers to get rid of em. While making bombers, you can also make a wingdom for the air. After the bombers are made, you can make a jugger and perhaps another wingdom. When you attack, put the jugger in front, your bombers behind it (under your control) and the wingdom/any other forces you have behind that. With the bombers, target the archers, and the jugger will meat shield so the bombers can get there. That will also help damage his swordwrath units depending on how many bombers you made. If your jugger is still overwhelmed, retreat; but with your wingoms you can pick them off and pressure the spearton. Now you have a bit more control.

DragonFrost
01-24-2013, 08:58 AM
^legit question.
Anyways, air units can block arrows using melee units. Set a (spearton or whatever you want) at the top of the map, and behind it, is an albow. Put the albow at the bottom of the screen. THis works because the game is 2d

uberman
01-24-2013, 10:00 AM
Ground archers have low health, and only takes 3 bombers to get rid of em. While making bombers, you can also make a wingdom for the air. After the bombers are made, you can make a jugger and perhaps another wingdom. When you attack, put the jugger in front, your bombers behind it (under your control) and the wingdom/any other forces you have behind that. With the bombers, target the archers, and the jugger will meat shield so the bombers can get there. That will also help damage his swordwrath units depending on how many bombers you made. If your jugger is still overwhelmed, retreat; but with your wingoms you can pick them off and pressure the spearton. Now you have a bit more control.

Thanks.
It sounds so easy when you say it :)
Guess thats why your number uno :)


^legit question.
Anyways, air units can block arrows using melee units. Set a (spearton or whatever you want) at the top of the map, and behind it, is an albow. Put the albow at the bottom of the screen. THis works because the game is 2d

Hey were talking about you, not to you - this is a secret meeting of the dark forces!
<JOKING>

Seriously, a juggerknight at the top of the screen blocks a wingdon at the bottom - as long as the wing is behind the jugger just judging from how far forward/backwards they are?
Makes me wonder; How did I win a single game not knowing that?

Gotta play test that
:)

EDIT to add; I tested it, and it doesnt seem to work like that. A juggerknight can prevent a wing getting hit by an archer, but only if he is quite close to it in terms of being in line.

WyzDM
01-24-2013, 02:17 PM
I tested it, and it doesnt seem to work like that. A juggerknight can prevent a wing getting hit by an archer, but only if he is quite close to it in terms of being in line.

That's the idea. And I only make it sound easy because I've had lots of practice doing it. Keep at it and you'll figure out how to make it work.

DragonFrost
01-24-2013, 03:36 PM
Wait, I meant the melee guy had to stand in the line of fire of the archidon to wingadons :/ sorry about that. Or you can just send him to attack the archidon, still works :P

WyzDM
01-24-2013, 07:52 PM
Wait, I meant the melee guy had to stand in the line of fire of the archidon to wingadons :/ sorry about that. Or you can just send him to attack the archidon, still works :P

That does, but if he's able to create a mass with ground forces, it's a suicide mission.

More replays have been added.

uberman
01-24-2013, 11:50 PM
Wait, I meant the melee guy had to stand in the line of fire of the archidon to wingadons :/ sorry about that. Or you can just send him to attack the archidon, still works :P

OK, I get your idea now.
Thanks.

@ WyzDM; I notice that in the countering an early rush on a short map - where he comes at you with swords and an archer - you focus on killing his swords first with both miners and cats. Only once all the swords are dead do you attack the archer.
It obviously works out well for you - whts the thinking behind that stat? Is it that swords do more DPS than the archer, and will kill the miners faster than the archer, so they are the main threat?

ETA
Shit I just noticed its WyzDM not WysDM - goodness knows how long I been miss-spelling that :)
Srry :/

ETA the replay called WyzDM vs ZenithxDaemonic is actually ZenithxDaemonic vs Galeforce.
You may want to change the title (its a good, well played game)

DragonFrost
01-25-2013, 07:02 AM
:/ I was pretty sure archidon did (lots) more damage than sword, but maybe since they have a longer reload time, their dips Is lower?

uberman
01-25-2013, 08:42 AM
:/ I was pretty sure archidon did (lots) more damage than sword, but maybe since they have a longer reload time, their dips Is lower?

You may be right, I dont claim to know for sure that swords DPS is more than an archer, but I am trying to 'think like WyzDM'
:)
I am thinking a sword within striking range will kill a miner faster than an archer will, but as I dont play order much, I dunno.

WyzDM
01-25-2013, 10:05 AM
I notice that in the countering an early rush on a short map - where he comes at you with swords and an archer - you focus on killing his swords first with both miners and cats. Only once all the swords are dead do you attack the archer. It obviously works out well for you - what's the thinking behind that start? Is it that swords do more DPS than the archer, and will kill the miners faster than the archer, so they are the main threat?

If I don't have a lot of cats yet and it's a shorter map, I got for the sword because of 2 reasons. Mainly, he's in range of my miners, and I've founded that all my units on him can be enough damage to take him out, or force both units to retreat. If I attack the archer with cats, he may withdraw his swordwrath anyway, and in which case I'd be sending my first 3 cats to their deaths. Before, I thought it was more important to get them off of my miners, but I've realized because chaos as a little bit of an economic head-start, sacrificing a miner for one of their starting units instead of my army is a better trade. With 3-4 cats I'm able to take down a lone archidon with ease.


Shit I just noticed its WyzDM not WysDM - goodness knows how long I been miss-spelling that :)
Srry :/

Haha it's ok :P


The replay called WyzDM vs ZenithxDaemonic is actually ZenithxDaemonic vs Galeforce.
You may want to change the title (its a good, well played game)

Actually this was altogether a different replay, and I managed to recover the original one of me actually playing Daemonic. You're now able to view that one instead. Galeforce did not utilize many bombers here, but perhaps I'll still keep that replay available.


:/ I was pretty sure archidon did (lots) more damage than sword, but maybe since they have a longer reload time, their dips Is lower?

Swordwrath both is faster at giving damage and delivers more to my knowledge.


You may be right, I don't claim to know for sure that swords DPS is more than an archer, but I am trying to 'think like WyzDM'
:)
I am thinking a sword within striking range will kill a miner faster than an archer will, but as I dont play order much, I dunno.

He's also in striking range of my miners, which helps me more. Those charts at the end of the game which show your arm/economy differences to your opponent? It counts miners as your army, and I make good use of em, especially since I'm able to start with more than an order player seeking to flush me going swordie/archer.

DragonFrost
01-25-2013, 03:11 PM
I think swords only do more damage to armored units, as i remember that it takes 4-5 hits from an archidon to kill a unupgraded miner, while it takes like 7 for a sword to kill the unupgraded miner.

ShadowyWhisper
01-25-2013, 03:12 PM
I've seen a lot of your replays. So basically you want:

A high health ground unit in front to block range attacks

Flying units behind it to cause real damage

WzyDM plays like that. It works quite well when you see it in motion. Check it out!

ShadowyWhisper
01-25-2013, 03:14 PM
If he has a full army of giants as you say, you may be out of luck with that kind of an army, especially if he's closing in on your base. If you must engage, you would want to poison spray as mesdusa above all else. If you have money, juggers/castle deads and resilience in your best efforts to anti. Position your medusa and marrowkai behind the statue, and alternate between the two for fearing a giant, hell's fists, and using the stone ability. While it won't work on a giant, it does massive damage. Put your juggers in the front to prevent them from hitting the statue. If it is really a full army, you're pretty much toast at this point, but don't say I didn't try.

Thanks, I've now updated that.



I go in behind the ghost, so the castle archer initially targets the jugger. As long as I'm far enough away from the ghost, my cats will not take any splash damage from the arrow. You can however target the cats with a castle archer using the spacebar, but that would also leave my jugger to keep running, and my cats would manage to get out OK.



I realized this, thanks. I'll have to provide some more replays when I can.

Uh. I was asking if my OPPONENT had that. What army should I build, as Chaos and Order?

WyzDM
01-25-2013, 04:04 PM
Uh. I was asking if my OPPONENT had that. What army should I build, as Chaos and Order?

This is the Chaos strategy section, so I shall answer accordingly. However, your question is a bit problematic. Allow me to explain:

You state your opponent has a certain kind of army, and that which has great power. To counter that, I would of course build an equally powerful or greater army. But here lies the root of the issue. In the time making an army to match his, he will only make his stronger. So indefinitely at this point, the other player has the game. The solution isn't combating this force, but preventing it.

Your opponent can't make all of these units at once, so you must start with each as itself.

If he has a medusa, you need a multiple of cheap units and tanks. He'll turn one to stone, but that will not be enough to prevent its fate. If it's a marrowki, you can do a number of things. First, wingdoms are good units because they are not affected by hell's fists, and he can only target them closer to himself. Another idea is just 1-2 juggers, as even if he targets them and uses hell's fist, they have better defenses, as they are front line units, unlike the marrowki. If you notice hes's starting to make juggers, you want to push him back as soon as he can. Too many of those and he'll over-run you. You can do this by taking the air with wingdoms and matching with you're own jugger force and harass his economy, while building more units. And lastly, against a giant, you need 2 things. You need a tank, something to take the damage. The giant will hit something, and if it's an order giant, only sooner. By this point, you should have an equal economy to your opponent, but that does not mean you need a giant as well. Using a marrowki, you can keep it busy by fearing it into your tanks, and also saving a few seconds of collecting damage. You can use ranged units like deads/wingdoms behind the juggers. A medusa can't stone the giant, but the ability does massive damage, and should be used if you have one.

Hope this helps.

GokuXx
02-11-2013, 03:44 PM
How will you start a game with Chaos empire?

DragonFrost
02-11-2013, 03:57 PM
Me: 2 miners 2 crawlers. I've also seen early jugger/eclipsors, and 1 miner 3 crawlers.

ShadowyWhisper
02-11-2013, 04:11 PM
Early ECLIPSOR!!! I saw a guy who did early Allbowtross (don't even ask what he was thinking), and he said that he didn't get to 200 mana yet and my 2 Swords were already charging. So he made 3 Swords, I retreated, my 3rd Sword loaded, and so did my Archidon. You can tell I won. So best is probably 1 Sword 2 Miners for Order, keep buying Swords and Archers until you have middle. For Chaos, Crawlers and Eclisprsosdssaasfsfsfasfasfasfasas233h43

DragonFrost
02-11-2013, 05:09 PM
Early ECLIPSOR!!! I saw a guy who did early Allbowtross (don't even ask what he was thinking), and he said that he didn't get to 200 mana yet and my 2 Swords were already charging. So he made 3 Swords, I retreated, my 3rd Sword loaded, and so did my Archidon. You can tell I won. So best is probably 1 Sword 2 Miners for Order, keep buying Swords and Archers until you have middle. For Chaos, Crawlers and Eclisprsosdssaasfsfsfasfasfasfasas233h43

to counter early albow as chaos, get an eclipsor, and a bunch of bombs (especially if they have multiple albows, if just one, focus more on eclipsors)

WyzDM
02-11-2013, 05:30 PM
How will you start a game with Chaos empire?

Typically two miners 2 cats. If it's Ice Lands or Green Hills, I may use the incoming 150g for a miner instead of making a third cat. If I do this, I will use my 2 cats to hold center (until more cats/other force comes), but meanwhile optimizing my economy with 5 miners for an early wingdom. Here I can pretty much take and hold center.

stickman311
02-11-2013, 11:05 PM
but then a contiuous stream of spears come and kill your statue

DragonFrost
02-12-2013, 07:01 AM
but then a contiuous stream of spears come and kill your statue

How so? I managed to defeat early spearton (plus later speartons), thanks to better economy. I get a jugger ASAP, and then I start massing juggers, and get charge too. Also, get eclipsors.

WyzDM
02-12-2013, 10:06 AM
but then a continuous stream of spears come and kill your statue

On Grass Hills? You have to be kidding me.

WheresMyCheetos
02-12-2013, 02:59 PM
I need help with countering Shadowraths. he had 2 castle archers and 1-2 walls and like 10 shadows.

Result ran past my juggers and deads and killed me.

I need a way to stop this. only 7 minutes into the game BTW

ShadowyWhisper
02-12-2013, 05:01 PM
Just get some bombers or stop it at it's roots.

WheresMyCheetos
02-12-2013, 05:53 PM
I did I but I had like 12 bombers when he did attacked (attacked in clumps of 4 bombers).

uberman
02-12-2013, 09:20 PM
if you had 12 bombers, and he had a load of shadows on the statue, why didnt you bomb his nice tight pack of units? one wave of bombs would have insta-killed his entire army.

WyzDM
02-12-2013, 09:28 PM
Remember, bombers is always a last resort. And cause what can't hit ninjas? Wingdoms. Ninjas are very good ground units but require a lot of control. Flush em out with a mix of wings juggs and poison spray with medusa. Let the medusa be the bait, and nab em when they strike your ground forces.

stickman311
02-13-2013, 12:19 AM
On Grass Hills? You have to be kidding me.

short or medium maps

PUMU
02-13-2013, 07:43 AM
im not sure how often this works or if it was just by luck i started with 6 bombers captured tower when i saw he went spearton first. i macro'd a bit instead of pointlessly smashing my bombers into his one spearton i kept massing bombers while harassing his miners into retreat while he was unable to build a castle archer before he surrendered shortly afterwards.

PUMU
02-13-2013, 07:45 AM
should pack mentality ever be used or is it pointless?whoops double post

WyzDM
02-13-2013, 08:50 AM
short or medium maps

Early spear is fair play, but against chaos it may not work so well. Remember, chaos can start with an economic advantage with cats, and that will force you to either make a castle archer or swordwrath. If he matches you with a jugger, you're fighting a losing battle (especially against castle dead, the poison will force you to garrison, while juggs can regenerate health at center).


should pack mentality ever be used or is it pointless?

I do use pack mentality sometimes, but you have to judge when it's best. If he's still using early archidon and swordwrath units, cats are fast and can clean house. If I still have 5-6 cats left after the starting skirmish for center control, I'll think about buying it, even if he has a castle archer. This is because I can run them behind a ghost or another jug. The castle archer will target the tank while my cats clean miners a few spaces away, out of the splash reach.

fram
02-13-2013, 11:33 AM
I do use pack mentality sometimes, but you have to judge when it's best. If he's still using early archidon and swordwrath units, cats are fast and can clean house. If I still have 5-6 cats left after the starting skirmish for center control, I'll think about buying it, even if he has a castle archer. This is because I can run them behind a ghost or another jug. The castle archer will target the tank while my cats clean miners a few spaces away, out of the splash reach.
what if he has 2 or 3 castle archer as the second targets furthest away unit e.g. crawlers and the 3rd attacks randomly, and im not saying that a meatshield at the back to protect weaker units but 3 castle archer are invaluable against lots of crawlers and meat shield.

WyzDM
02-13-2013, 11:43 AM
what if he has 2 or 3 castle archer as the second targets furthest away unit e.g. crawlers and the 3rd attacks randomly, and im not saying that a meatshield at the back to protect weaker units but 3 castle archer are invaluable against lots of crawlers and meat shield.


I do use pack mentality sometimes, but you have to judge when it's best.

Read what I say carefully. Crawlers are good for early play, but you're not going to make crawlers if they go with castle archer 1. If they're producing castle archer 2 and 3, you're not pressuring enough. That's a lot of gold going into units they can't manipulate.

fram
02-14-2013, 02:13 AM
Read what I say carefully. Crawlers are good for early play, but you're not going to make crawlers if they go with castle archer 1. If they're producing castle archer 2 and 3, you're not pressuring enough. That's a lot of gold going into units they can't manipulate.

what would you get, normally i'd get 2 massive chaos giants lots of eclpsors 3 medusa line of bombers barely any crawlers and a line of juggers with charge (and some deads if i have space)
(all upgrades)
14+15=29, (Line of bombers 12) 41 (lots of eclipsors) 59 (line of juggers 5) 74 and 2 deads. 80 (not what i usually do maybe sometimes only 2 medusa or no crawlers)

DragonFrost
02-14-2013, 07:12 AM
what would you get, normally i'd get 2 massive chaos giants lots of eclpsors 3 medusa line of bombers barely any crawlers and a line of juggers with charge (and some deads if i have space)
(all upgrades)
14+15=29, (Line of bombers 12) 41 (lots of eclipsors) 59 (line of juggers 5) 74 and 2 deads. 80 (not what i usually do maybe sometimes only 2 medusa or no crawlers)

Here's what I get (haven't lost a single ranked match with it yet): 5 crawlers with pack mentality, 10 miners, a bunch of wings, a bunch of bombers.

fram
02-14-2013, 03:20 PM
Here's what I get (haven't lost a single ranked match with it yet): 5 crawlers with pack mentality, 10 miners, a bunch of wings, a bunch of bombers
Very complex.:p

GokuXx
02-14-2013, 05:00 PM
Read what I say carefully. Crawlers are good for early play, but you're not going to make crawlers if they go with castle archer 1. If they're producing castle archer 2 and 3, you're not pressuring enough. That's a lot of gold going into units they can't manipulate.

True if they make castle archers and you go with crawlers you are not pressuring your opponent. To stop them harass their miners and don't let them get castle Archers.

WyzDM
02-14-2013, 06:27 PM
True if they make castle archers and you go with crawlers you are not pressuring your opponent. To stop them harass their miners and don't let them get castle Archers.

Not always the case, players are able to produce an early archer: but this is what you want. That hinders them from making their economy early in the game. When they do that, you tec up to jugs and ranged units to get in there. If they go 2 or 3, then you have a problem. But if you managed your own economy well enough, you can go with giants and jugs.

GokuXx
02-14-2013, 07:51 PM
How so? I managed to defeat early spearton (plus later speartons), thanks to better economy. I get a jugger ASAP, and then I start massing juggers, and get charge too. Also, get eclipsors.

I actually do the same thing. I eventually start to mass Juggers and wings :P

fram
02-15-2013, 08:37 AM
JUGERRS rock.
Mxed in with eclipsors and bombers is unbeatable against spears ninja and order flyer(unless u like i have once got 10 bombers to kill eclipsors/flyers but forgot to get 300 for self destruct and had to wait till ur opponent kills ur bombers when ur underneath him)

PUMU
02-15-2013, 11:36 PM
what would you get, normally i'd get 2 massive chaos giants lots of eclpsors 3 medusa line of bombers barely any crawlers and a line of juggers with charge (and some deads if i have space)
(all upgrades)
14+15=29, (Line of bombers 12) 41 (lots of eclipsors) 59 (line of juggers 5) 74 and 2 deads. 80 (not what i usually do maybe sometimes only 2 medusa or no crawlers)
And where do the miners fit in?

WyzDM
02-18-2013, 05:40 PM
Well this thread is no longer needed.

DragonFrost
02-18-2013, 06:55 PM
Why?

isgood
02-19-2013, 08:08 AM
JUGERRS rock.
Mxed in with eclipsors and bombers is unbeatable against spears ninja and order flyer(unless u like i have once got 10 bombers to kill eclipsors/flyers but forgot to get 300 for self destruct and had to wait till ur opponent kills ur bombers when ur underneath him)
Majikills to kill eclipsors, if they have a. Bunch of archidons this would kill your bombers in seconds, speartons with shield walls and bashing juggers then have a bunch of egaints to kill off withmerics to heal speartons. This army would beat it. Not undefeatable :p

fram
02-19-2013, 11:43 AM
BUT quicker/less expensive and can be defeated by juggers wings and bombers if i use good micro also i only need 3/10 bombers to hit and since i micro well (i think) 9/10 will hit you archers. and if i kill the merics and use charge i can stun spears and kill them/giant while you are stunned and if you try to shield bash me then i move back and let my wings kill you in ur wall stance while only your ONE giant hits jugger then i send him back till u die, if you break stance, mid-fight charge and aim at 1 spear, the one who is closest.

ShadowyWhisper
02-19-2013, 03:42 PM
Alright, can someone give me a list of all Chaos units and abilities, loading time, cost, and attack power relative to SwordWrath? I need to figure out a strategy to counter Chaos as I'm seeing more and more.

isgood
02-22-2013, 08:25 PM
Why?

All the replays don't work anymore

stickman311
02-22-2013, 08:37 PM
Alright, can someone give me a list of all Chaos units and abilities, loading time, cost, and attack power relative to SwordWrath? I need to figure out a strategy to counter Chaos as I'm seeing more and more.

K, crawler: 100 gold
Dead:350 gold 100 mana
enslaved miner:150 gold
Marrowkai:400 gold amd 400 mana
Medusa:500 gold 400 mana
Bomber: 75 gold
Jugger:450 gold 50 mana
Eclipsor:400 gold 150 mana
Giant:1500 gold

Tower spawns,resellience,miner hustle,castle dead,giant growths,passive income are all the same as order.
The poison for dead costs 400 gold to research, rest i don't know

WyzDM
02-22-2013, 08:38 PM
All the replays don't work anymore

No, it's because the topic has gone from it's original intent and is now less visited. Also, I have relevant data on my website now.

jli
02-22-2013, 08:39 PM
Just watch a replay involving chaos, click "free camera", pause, and explore.

thorspider413
04-09-2013, 06:50 AM
Other strategies against giant massing? It would be apreciated if you would help.