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View Full Version : How to beat giant massing: the science of "Economy harassment"



PsychoticCheez
01-20-2013, 05:51 PM
The title makes this post seem a bit more posh than it actually is.. but yeah

I really recommend keeping this window open; I reference specific times where you should pay attention to certain factors which explain how I'm winning.

Key points are in bold, for the lazy readers.

The replay:
http://tny.cz/8c763706

Note that when I say, "Giant massing", I mean when someone takes a defensive stance, either through having their offences beaten back, or choosing to turtle up from the get go. Then they spam giants (with maybe some units here and there).

If someone thrashes you back normally, and THEN uses giants, that's not giant massing. Well technically it is, but not in the sense that everyone whines about.

So. Demolishing giant massing.

Step 1
Force them to build a castle archer. This means investing in military, and sufficiently enough that you can force a win. And yes, this does mean you'll be at an economic disadvantage. So you need to make up for it.
Attack their miners and make them buy that archer. If they choose not to buy it, and instead attack your swordwrath, move it away. Miners are awful slow ...and time they spend moving, is time they spend not mining.

Note 1:00 in; I have just made them buy a castle archer.

That's 300 gold they could've spent on miners. This is 300 gold that I am able to spend on miners. This is what lets my economy catch up to his. When you add in the fact that my military is dominant, and therefore the tower is ours (extra gold, yay!), we have a distinct advantage in both military, economy, and ground gained. The game is ...pretty much won here. The rest is technique.

Step 2
At about 2:20, he still has pretty much no military. I can afford to spam miners (note how many miners I have at the end), with no fear of retaliation. Even if he decides to build a Spearton, I still have the stronger military. I am winning.

My economy also eventually gets to the point where I can continually build a miner, swordwrath, and archidon simultaneously. Troops for economy harassment.

Step 3
Economy harassment.
Note that at about 3:10-24, I send in all my troops to attack his outer mines, despite the fact that this puts me in range of his castle archer. And these are swordwrath we're talking here ...not a Spearton.

So, if he attacks us, our army is flimsy and they all have half heath! Oh noes!
Well that's the thing. He has no army. What's he going to attack us with? Miners? (Actually I don't know if it's a misclick or not but he attacks with miners...).

Note that harassing the outer miners is only useful because of how many miners I have. Think about it. If I'm stopping him from using his outer mines, but I've no miners by my own outer mines, what the hell am I gaining?

Step 4
Oh noes, he got a giant! You said this would stop massing! You lied to us! :'(

So at about 4:12 he manages to get a giant out anyways. So we're, doomed, right? And he's got a castle archer! We can't harass his economy anymore! We're doomed! DOOOMED!
Wrong.
4:50 Look at my army. Look at his. I'd probably die and lose if I tackled his giant as it was. As I go in to (seemingly attack his giants), he withdraws his miners. As he does that, I withdraw my troops (If his miners aren't mining, I'm happy). But as soon as they return, I target that crap. I right click that miner so many times my mouse could break.

There's a period between 5:00-5:45 where he just moves his miners back and forth, each time anticipating my retreat. That's about 45 seconds where he's not mining. 45 seconds in which my miners ARE. Oh, and I have more troops incoming. By the time this whole episode is over, he has 8 miners left. 2 of which die (I guess he forgot to click on them so they attacked).

You try funding a giant massing operation with 6 miners. Tell me how easy it is.

I'm leaving it there. I've wrote enough.

EDIT: Additional replay! http://tny.cz/620916a9
For those looking for a bit more action in the beginning stages. It gets to a point where the replay isn't in sync, but watching it over, it's accurate enough.

FailingAtFailing
01-20-2013, 06:07 PM
Lots of science here

[/sarcasm]

But I've noticed some giant massers start off massing speartons until they can afford a giant.

PsychoticCheez
01-20-2013, 06:10 PM
I probably should've made clearer that all of the above is dependent on you beating the living crap out of your opponent's army in the initial skirmish.

If the opponent is massing Speartons, that's a whole different situation, which should be adapted to differently. Fundamentals remain the same, though.

FailingAtFailing
01-20-2013, 06:24 PM
I probably should've made clearer that all of the above is dependent on you beating the living crap out of your opponent's army in the initial skirmish.

If the opponent is massing Speartons, that's a whole different situation, which should be adapted to differently. Fundamentals remain the same, though.

Also, you only did this once, so the opponent might have been a "less-skilled" giant spammer, as in their skill was more negative than others.

For it to be true science you have to do this strategy multiple times to make sure it works.

PsychoticCheez
01-20-2013, 06:35 PM
I'm in the top 50. I was kicking giant masser ass even before the nerf.

And this giant spammer is in the 1800s. Although he did say he was trying something new. I'll put up a different replay that may adhere to your tastes better.

WyzDM
01-20-2013, 09:27 PM
Solid material, but Daemon has already released an argument like this and it appears to have been forgotten. They will figure out what they're doing wrong on their own.


I'm done with giants.

DragonFrost
01-20-2013, 09:53 PM
:) poor wyzdm :/
Also, why does attacking, then getting giants not considered giant massing? In the end, they still have lots of giants... Even though it's harder to counter that way

PsychoticCheez
01-21-2013, 02:59 AM
Solid material, but Daemon has already released an argument like this and it appears to have been forgotten. They will figure out what they're doing wrong on their own.


I'm done with giants.

I don't really think most people knew how and when to apply the principles, and I wanted to make an attempt at elaborating. That's not to say Daemon didn't do a good job ^^



And I (personally) wouldn't call it giant massing because they've beaten you without giant spam. As soon as you retreat and are just waiting for them, you've already lost. Giant spam happens to be the way they chose to finish you off.

Think of it as choosing a finishing move after depleting your opponent's health bar (in fighting games).

uberman
01-21-2013, 03:23 AM
Lots of science here

[/sarcasm]



Its applied science.



Great Opening Post. I think you did a great job in making it explicit what to do and why/how to do it.
Respect to Daemons great OP too - the two OP's both complement each other and collectively represent some great advice, IMO.

badplayer
01-21-2013, 08:08 AM
any scenario in which u aim for mass giants mid/late game is basically giant massing, regardless of opening. that includes spearton openings, which suck regardless

ShadowyWhisper
01-22-2013, 07:40 PM
The title makes this post seem a bit more posh than it actually is.. but yeah

I really recommend keeping this window open; I reference specific times where you should pay attention to certain factors which explain how I'm winning.

Key points are in bold, for the lazy readers.

The replay:
http://tny.cz/8c763706

Note that when I say, "Giant massing", I mean when someone takes a defensive stance, either through having their offences beaten back, or choosing to turtle up from the get go. Then they spam giants (with maybe some units here and there).

If someone thrashes you back normally, and THEN uses giants, that's not giant massing. Well technically it is, but not in the sense that everyone whines about.

So. Demolishing giant massing.

Step 1
Force them to build a castle archer. This means investing in military, and sufficiently enough that you can force a win. And yes, this does mean you'll be at an economic disadvantage. So you need to make up for it.
Attack their miners and make them buy that archer. If they choose not to buy it, and instead attack your swordwrath, move it away. Miners are awful slow ...and time they spend moving, is time they spend not mining.

Note 1:00 in; I have just made them buy a castle archer.

That's 300 gold they could've spent on miners. This is 300 gold that I am able to spend on miners. This is what lets my economy catch up to his. When you add in the fact that my military is dominant, and therefore the tower is ours (extra gold, yay!), we have a distinct advantage in both military, economy, and ground gained. The game is ...pretty much won here. The rest is technique.

Step 2
At about 2:20, he still has pretty much no military. I can afford to spam miners (note how many miners I have at the end), with no fear of retaliation. Even if he decides to build a Spearton, I still have the stronger military. I am winning.

My economy also eventually gets to the point where I can continually build a miner, swordwrath, and archidon simultaneously. Troops for economy harassment.

Step 3
Economy harassment.
Note that at about 3:10-24, I send in all my troops to attack his outer mines, despite the fact that this puts me in range of his castle archer. And these are swordwrath we're talking here ...not a Spearton.

So, if he attacks us, our army is flimsy and they all have half heath! Oh noes!
Well that's the thing. He has no army. What's he going to attack us with? Miners? (Actually I don't know if it's a misclick or not but he attacks with miners...).

Note that harassing the outer miners is only useful because of how many miners I have. Think about it. If I'm stopping him from using his outer mines, but I've no miners by my own outer mines, what the hell am I gaining?

Step 4
Oh noes, he got a giant! You said this would stop massing! You lied to us! :'(

So at about 4:12 he manages to get a giant out anyways. So we're, doomed, right? And he's got a castle archer! We can't harass his economy anymore! We're doomed! DOOOMED!
Wrong.
4:50 Look at my army. Look at his. I'd probably die and lose if I tackled his giant as it was. As I go in to (seemingly attack his giants), he withdraws his miners. As he does that, I withdraw my troops (If his miners aren't mining, I'm happy). But as soon as they return, I target that crap. I right click that miner so many times my mouse could break.

There's a period between 5:00-5:45 where he just moves his miners back and forth, each time anticipating my retreat. That's about 45 seconds where he's not mining. 45 seconds in which my miners ARE. Oh, and I have more troops incoming. By the time this whole episode is over, he has 8 miners left. 2 of which die (I guess he forgot to click on them so they attacked).

You try funding a giant massing operation with 6 miners. Tell me how easy it is.

I'm leaving it there. I've wrote enough.

EDIT: Additional replay! http://tny.cz/620916a9
For those looking for a bit more action in the beginning stages. It gets to a point where the replay isn't in sync, but watching it over, it's accurate enough.

The fact that they chose NOT to make any defense shows weakness. Offense is the key. If they make only miners, I could demolish them. 3 Speartons against a castle archer? Well, the Spearton take a long time to die because of 1 castle archer, and the fact that II is now 600 makes it so

A. Opponent does not have enough gold

B. Attack more

So, what am I saying? Your opponent "trying something new" obviously will not work against someone above 1300 rating. Currently I have only lost 3 games and I have won 20, as I want to make it to 50 without more than 5 losses. Yep, I changed it because it's quite obvious that I will lose some. Most likely because my guardians don't want me to play games and I have to shut it every time they come up to my room...

PsychoticCheez
01-23-2013, 08:06 AM
The fact that they chose NOT to make any defense shows weakness. Offense is the key. If they make only miners, I could demolish them. 3 Speartons against a castle archer? Well, the Spearton take a long time to die because of 1 castle archer, and the fact that II is now 600 makes it so

A. Opponent does not have enough gold

B. Attack more

So, what am I saying? Your opponent "trying something new" obviously will not work against someone above 1300 rating.

I'm not saying it's an absolute guide to beating giant massers (i.e. it's not to be followed step by step). Everything I have mentioned is DEPENDENT on you beating back whatever army the opponent throws at you, and that is where I take things from, for that is where I believe a lot of people are unclear on.

What I have attempted to highlight and point out is how to efficiently use this gained advantage, and turn it into a winning one.



Step 3
Economy harassment.
Note that at about 3:10-24, I send in all my troops to attack his outer mines, despite the fact that this puts me in range of his castle archer. And these are swordwrath we're talking here ...not a Spearton.

So, if he attacks us, our army is flimsy and they all have half heath! Oh noes!
Well that's the thing. He has no army. What's he going to attack us with? Miners? (Actually I don't know if it's a misclick or not but he attacks with miners...).

Note that harassing the outer miners is only useful because of how many miners I have. Think about it. If I'm stopping him from using his outer mines, but I've no miners by my own outer mines, what the hell am I gaining?

For example. Most people would wait for a more decent amount of Speartons and maybe merics. They are wasting an advantage they gained, giving the opponent time to catch up with no fear of having his economy hurt.

ShadowyWhisper
01-23-2013, 02:47 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying this strategy won't work with opponents better than the one in the video.

Say he rushes a Spearton at the beginning. 50 mana at beginning, immediately sends out a Spearton on a long map. What do you do?

PsychoticCheez
01-23-2013, 03:37 PM
I'm not saying it's an absolute guide to beating giant massers (i.e. it's not to be followed step by step). Everything I have mentioned is DEPENDENT on you beating back whatever army the opponent throws at you, and that is where I take things from,

...How you get to the point of having an actual advantage, is not addressed. Not in this guide. That's the reader's problem.

I have stated in my first post what I mean when I say "giant massing", and why I only address that sub-category of giant massing (depending how loosely one means the term "giant massing).
Those are the situations I'm addressing.

ShadowyWhisper
01-23-2013, 04:45 PM
Yes, you did clearly state having one SwordWrath or a few targeting the miners.

jli
01-24-2013, 01:39 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying this strategy won't work with opponents better than the one in the video.

Say he rushes a Spearton at the beginning. 50 mana at beginning, immediately sends out a Spearton on a long map. What do you do?

A long map? Well, research rage, train 2 swords + 1 miner, miners return, train 3rd sword, your spearton is screwed.

ShadowyWhisper
01-24-2013, 03:02 PM
A long map? Well, research rage, train 2 swords + 1 miner, miners return, train 3rd sword, your spearton is screwed.

My Spearton. Well, my Spearton is definitely NOT screwed because it takes 39 sec to load 3 SwordWrath, MORE with Rage, and Rage takes Mana and Gold as well. 500 gold and 50 Mana. The Spearton loads in 20 seconds. Basically, you will have the following by the time my Spearton reaches your base:

A. 1 SwordWrath with Rage, 2nd one loading, 4-5 miners

B. 2 SwordWrath with no abilities, 4-5 miners

C. 3 SwordWrath and 2-3 miners, no Rage

And if you choose C, then I will have the same amount of miners AND will have the Spearton, which defeats 3 regular SwordWrath.

On a long map? Well, on a short map, ATTACK. On a long map, buy a Spearton or Castle Archer, OR walls.. Simple as that.

DragonFrost
01-24-2013, 04:39 PM
You forgot D. 3 swords with rage, and 2-3 miners. Note this is better on bigger maps because it takes time for the spearton to get the the other castle.

PsychoticCheez
01-24-2013, 05:50 PM
My Spearton. Well, my Spearton is definitely NOT screwed because it takes 39 sec to load 3 SwordWrath, MORE with Rage, and Rage takes Mana and Gold as well. 500 gold and 50 Mana. The Spearton loads in 20 seconds. Basically, you will have the following by the time my Spearton reaches your base:

A. 1 SwordWrath with Rage, 2nd one loading, 4-5 miners

B. 2 SwordWrath with no abilities, 4-5 miners

C. 3 SwordWrath and 2-3 miners, no Rage

And if you choose C, then I will have the same amount of miners AND will have the Spearton, which defeats 3 regular SwordWrath.

On a long map? Well, on a short map, ATTACK. On a long map, buy a Spearton or Castle Archer, OR walls.. Simple as that.

Aside from the fact that this discussion is irrelevant to my original post ... (I believe I justified this already) ..you're wrong. Plain wrong.

Being a more experienced player in the game, I think I'm justified in telling you that you probably need some more experience before credibly saying things such as these.

I'll say it again: I do not go into which specific starts to go into, and how to react. For the purposes of the original post, I don't give a crap if you started with a Spearton or whatever.

I address the situations where a person already has an advantage. This is because I believe complaints about giant massing were due to people not knowing how to use this advantage.

jli
01-24-2013, 08:13 PM
My Spearton. Well, my Spearton is definitely NOT screwed because it takes 39 sec to load 3 SwordWrath, MORE with Rage, and Rage takes Mana and Gold as well. 500 gold and 50 Mana. The Spearton loads in 20 seconds. Basically, you will have the following by the time my Spearton reaches your base:

A. 1 SwordWrath with Rage, 2nd one loading, 4-5 miners

B. 2 SwordWrath with no abilities, 4-5 miners

C. 3 SwordWrath and 2-3 miners, no Rage

And if you choose C, then I will have the same amount of miners AND will have the Spearton, which defeats 3 regular SwordWrath.

On a long map? Well, on a short map, ATTACK. On a long map, buy a Spearton or Castle Archer, OR walls.. Simple as that.

OK, yeah, I'll just ignore the urge to tell you how wrong you are (PsychoticCheez already did that for me) and get back on topic.

Unfortunately, I can't see the replay because it's outdated. However, I DID read the textwall and here are my thoughts.
On Step 3, you mention using swordwrath to take out their second row of miners. Personally, I prefer to stick 2-3 archidons right out of castle archer range; the approach seems safer to me.
Another thing you didn't mention (idk if it was simply implied or not) was the tower spawn, which can be a great way to scout and harass at the same time.