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kingkickass2013
02-03-2013, 03:23 PM
out of all the chaos games ive played, nobody has ever bothered using the turret, so im starting to think its nowhere near worth using its so underpowered

malbence
02-03-2013, 03:25 PM
Doesn't it hand out poison or does it just damage? Cause I mean constant damage is always a good idea, especially against weaker units.

KrayZStick
02-03-2013, 03:26 PM
Shouldn't this be in the chaos section?
@malbence, he's talking about the turret, not the castle dead ^^

kingkickass2013
02-03-2013, 03:31 PM
it should? i thought that this was the place to talk about underpowered and overpowered stuff

KillerPixel
02-03-2013, 03:37 PM
it should? i thought that this was the place to talk about underpowered and overpowered stuff
It should be here, The Chaos section is for tactics and ways to beat strategies etc.

It is really underpowered, I used to use it but after a while i stopped.

KrayZStick
02-03-2013, 03:48 PM
Ways to fix it:
1.Upgrade Damage
2.Upgrade Rate of Fire
3.Make it poison units

KillerPixel
02-03-2013, 03:54 PM
Ways to fix it:
1.Upgrade Damage
2.Upgrade Rate of Fire
3.Make it poison units

Maybe health a little too, And if not that the damage and size of the explosions when they're destroyed.

kingkickass2013
02-03-2013, 07:22 PM
i have an idea on how to make turrets more powerful but at the same keeping it as useful as wall

increase the fire rate so it fires at a three round burst instead of a single shot, and increase the damage

DragonFrost
02-03-2013, 07:25 PM
Guys... *CRY* someone sent a miner to almost middle and built a chaos tower, my 2 swords and an archidon were raped :/

kingkickass2013
02-03-2013, 07:30 PM
of course that was gonna happen, its 2 swordwrath and 1 archer, they arent exactly super humans

(I ABSOLUTELY LOVE THE SWORDWRATH AND ARCHIDON, but its just they aren't reliable there aren't that many units)

kingkickass2013
02-03-2013, 07:34 PM
ive used wall before and the spearton rush was foiled many times, and there must of been atleast 30 of them every time

300noob
02-03-2013, 07:34 PM
towers arent for mass murder. it's fine the way it is.

KrayZStick
02-03-2013, 07:35 PM
towers arent for mass murder. it's fine the way it is.

Research for it is what? 200 Gold and mana? and it can barely kill a swordwraith -.-

kingkickass2013
02-03-2013, 07:40 PM
towers are ment for support yes but the fact that they cannot move and cost 200 to not even stop the enemy units in there tracks seems a bit bullshit

the wall may cost 200 too but you can use the wall to slow the enemy down, turret doesn't do that, in fact if a turret was up against a single spearton, the spearton can just flee if things were looking bad, and if the turret way out into the battle field, heavy units can just pass right by the turret as if it were nothing, and if they were at base, they cost the exact same as the castle dead, its just now the castle defense is able to be killed and doesn't poison


AND IT COSTS MANA? is that what im hearing crazy stick

DragonFrost
02-03-2013, 07:40 PM
Ah hem... read my post. Beats 1 archidon and 2 swords. Also, research cost is 50 gold 100 mana.
40 seconds to research. 300 gold to build 1. Limit of two. Restricted zone: Same as walls.

kingkickass2013
02-03-2013, 07:43 PM
wall is easier to get i do believe

_Ai_
02-03-2013, 11:27 PM
I've never met a Chaos turret yet, but if I have chaos, I'll make turrets and castle deads for my strat

uberman
02-04-2013, 12:21 AM
I've never met a Chaos turret yet, but if I have chaos, I'll make turrets and castle deads for my strat

I have only once met a player who used a turrent - and it was Crazy Jay!
The turret is so seldom used because its so crap compared to its cost.
The wall is so heavily used because it stops dead the advance, and can be incredible when you have say a shit-load of archers, or a giant/giants, or a mage behind it.
The observed fact; walls are used a lot, turrets are not used at all by most players.
The inevitable conclusion; the turret is simply not worth the cost.

Combined with the really weak castle dead, chaos has very little in terms of defence options.
Castle archer > castle dead.
Walls > turrets.

Needs balancing, to be honest.

_Ai_
02-04-2013, 12:24 AM
I have only once met a player who used a turrent - and it was Crazy Jay!
The turret is so seldom used because its so crap compared to its cost.
The wall is so heavily used because it stops dead the advance, and can be incredible when you have say a shit-load of archers, or a giant/giants, or a mage behind it.
The observed fact; walls are used a lot, turrets are not used at all by most players.
The inevitable conclusion; the turret is simply not worth the cost.

Combined with the really weak castle dead, chaos has very little in terms of defence options.
Castle archer > castle dead.
Walls > turrets.

Needs balancing, to be honest.

Meaning Chaos excel in offense, while is crap at defense?
And Order excel in defense, while crap at offense?
Not really lol

uberman
02-04-2013, 12:32 AM
Meaning Chaos excel in offense, while is crap at defense?
And Order excel in defense, while crap at offense?
Not really lol

Not really what I was saying.
In some situations chaos is good at offence - but not all.
For example, on a short map like castle or gates your screwed as chaos against an agressive order player; because you are only able to use crawlers which are weaker than swords but have the same build time - so order has a huge aggressive benifit - pump out swords, get rage (which is far cheaper than the crawler buffs) and its a virtual auto win to order. The price of crawlesr is not the issue rather the build time, which is the same as swords - so you cant build more crawlers than he has swords, (time not cost) while swords are stronger than crawlers.
I.e. Crawlers can only match swords when they have an advantage in numbers, which cant happen in the early stages of a short map due to build time.

_Ai_
02-04-2013, 12:44 AM
Not really what I was saying.
In some situations chaos is good at offence - but not all.
For example, on a short map like castle or gates your screwed as chaos against an agressive order player; because you are only able to use crawlers which are weaker than swords but have the same build time - so order has a huge aggressive benifit - pump out swords, get rage (which is far cheaper than the crawler buffs) and its a virtual auto win to order. The price of crawlesr is not the issue rather the build time, which is the same as swords - so you cant build more crawlers than he has swords, (time not cost) while swords are stronger than crawlers.
I.e. Crawlers can only match swords when they have an advantage in numbers, which cant happen in the early stages of a short map due to build time.

Oh...
This is so complicated, I must say.

uberman
02-04-2013, 12:59 AM
Oh...
This is so complicated, I must say.

OK, simple version;
Swords are stronger than crawlers in equal numbers. On a short map the swords reach the chaos base before chaos has enough time to build more crawlers than order has swords.
So agressive order with swords wins (even more so with rage) against agressive chaos with crawlers.

300noob
02-04-2013, 01:12 AM
OK, simple version;
Swords are stronger than crawlers in equal numbers. On a short map the swords reach the chaos base before chaos has enough time to build more crawlers than order has swords.
So agressive order with swords wins (even more so with rage) against agressive chaos with crawlers.
yet again, ya failed to noticed that chaos is better than order in med and long map....
here's my idea to adjust the tower, it cost less to build, like 150 gold or something, done.
chaos is not mean for defense, it mean for the offense

Azxc
02-04-2013, 01:21 AM
Swordwrath mass?
Use bombers XD

uberman
02-04-2013, 01:23 AM
yet again, ya failed to noticed that chaos is better than order in med and long map....
here's my idea to adjust the tower, it cost less to build, like 150 gold or something, done.
chaos is not mean for defense, it mean for the offense

I didnt 'fail to notice' - I just used the specific example of a short map. I used it as an illustration of one situation where chaos cant by any stretch be said to be 'better than order when used aggresively'.
On a short map, order is
1 better at defence (walls > turret, castle archer > castle dead)
2 beter at early offence (swords > crawlers in equal numbers)

I think your right, reducing the cost of the turret would help. But bettre to reduce the mana to reseach the ability too, as its the early need for mana which i I think stops it being useful.

PsychoticCheez
02-04-2013, 02:59 AM
I didnt 'fail to notice' - I just used the specific example of a short map. I used it as an illustration of one situation where chaos cant by any stretch be said to be 'better than order when used aggresively'.
On a short map, order is
1 better at defence (walls > turret, castle archer > castle dead)
2 beter at early offence (swords > crawlers in equal numbers)

I think your right, reducing the cost of the turret would help. But better to reduce the mana to reseach the ability too, as its the early need for mana which i I think stops it being useful.

The generalisation that Chaos is an offensive army should just be dropped. It starts pointless debates such as "crawlers should be able to outmatch swords in all offensive aspects because Chaos is offensive" etc. The Chaos army is what it is. Because of its composition, it's certainly harder (and a losing strategy) to play defensively, but it's army make up is not so because it is supposed to be offensive, so please stop trying to mould Chaos into the "uber offensive but no defense" army you think it should be.

I'm not arguing with uberman here, I completely agree that Order can dominate a short map e.g. Castle.
I'm saying that people should drop their ideas of balance which are based around Chaos supposedly being an offensive army.

I completely agree with the Chaos turret being underpowered. The only thing it can kill is swords and archers, due to poison. At 300 gold this is way too expensive.

uberman
02-04-2013, 04:21 AM
The generalisation that Chaos is an offensive army should just be dropped. It starts pointless debates such as "crawlers should be able to outmatch swords in all offensive aspects because Chaos is offensive" etc. The Chaos army is what it is. Because of its composition, it's certainly harder (and a losing strategy) to play defensively, but it's army make up is not so because it is supposed to be offensive, so please stop trying to mould Chaos into the "uber offensive but no defense" army you think it should be.

I'm not arguing with uberman here, I completely agree that Order can dominate a short map e.g. Castle.
I'm saying that people should drop their ideas of balance which are based around Chaos supposedly being an offensive army.

I completely agree with the Chaos turret being underpowered. The only thing it can kill is swords and archers, due to poison. At 300 gold this is way too expensive.

This.
Yes, under some conditions chaos is great at offence, such as a long map. So is order, under some (other) conditions, such as a short map.
Its wrong to say chaois is offensive, therefore castle archers should be greater than castle dead, and walls should be greater than turrets.
As its wrong to say crawlers should be greater than swords.

IT SHOULD BE WELL BALANCED, obviously?

Less obviously, and more controvercially - if there is to be any imbalance it should be in favour of the pay-to-play chaos - FFS the game designers WANT people to pay so a paying member should get a race at least as strong as the free to play.
Thats not to say chaos and membership should be pay-to-win! but obviously, if you accept the propositions that
1. the designers want people to pay to play
2 people are less likely to pay for a weaker race

then you cant deny the inescapable conclusions that
1. chaos should be AT LEAST as strong as order
which means
2. if there is any imbalance it must be in favour of chaos.

PUMU
02-04-2013, 07:37 AM
they need aoe damage at least something of the sort!

300noob
02-04-2013, 07:38 PM
This.
Yes, under some conditions chaos is great at offence, such as a long map. So is order, under some (other) conditions, such as a short map.
Its wrong to say chaois is offensive, therefore castle archers should be greater than castle dead, and walls should be greater than turrets.
As its wrong to say crawlers should be greater than swords.

IT SHOULD BE WELL BALANCED, obviously?

Less obviously, and more controvercially - if there is to be any imbalance it should be in favour of the pay-to-play chaos - FFS the game designers WANT people to pay so a paying member should get a race at least as strong as the free to play.
Thats not to say chaos and membership should be pay-to-win! but obviously, if you accept the propositions that
1. the designers want people to pay to play
2 people are less likely to pay for a weaker race

then you cant deny the inescapable conclusions that
1. chaos should be AT LEAST as strong as order
which means
2. if there is any imbalance it must be in favour of chaos.
-.- now ya just being "rock head"
every single debate ya have is biased on chaos favour.
i say just reduce the cost of the turret like cost 150 gold to build, done...the research cost as much as wall, done.

ShadowyWhisper
02-04-2013, 07:43 PM
out of all the chaos games ive played, nobody has ever bothered using the turret, so im starting to think its nowhere near worth using its so underpowered

Nope, it's HORRIBLE. Same health as Meric, barely does any damage.

uberman
02-04-2013, 10:45 PM
-.- now ya just being "rock head"
every single debate ya have is biased on chaos favour.
i say just reduce the cost of the turret like cost 150 gold to build, done...the research cost as much as wall, done.

Yes, every single debate I have is in chaos favour, because I am a chaos player - why would I be debating against chaos favour? I dont claim to be right all the time every time (I am too long in the tooth to believe 'I' am so special and clever that 'I' am always right - a view point life should have taught any of us who have managed to live for more than 2 decades).
But so what?...
If the content of my argument is flawed, point out why its flawed rather than point out that I am in favour of chaos - I know I argue in favour of chaos, obviously I do. The OP points to the weakness of the turret and I am joining in a thread on the weakness so its not a shocker that I talk of the weakness....

Oh, I almost forgot - you cant fault my argument that chaos should be at least as strong as order, so you have to distract from the validity of the argument to criticise me rather than my argument<thats just me teasing you, no offence intended>

kingkickass2013
02-05-2013, 06:35 AM
I have only once met a player who used a turrent - and it was Crazy Jay!
The turret is so seldom used because its so crap compared to its cost.
The wall is so heavily used because it stops dead the advance, and can be incredible when you have say a shit-load of archers, or a giant/giants, or a mage behind it.
The observed fact; walls are used a lot, turrets are not used at all by most players.
The inevitable conclusion; the turret is simply not worth the cost.

Combined with the really weak castle dead, chaos has very little in terms of defence options.
Castle archer > castle dead.
Walls > turrets.

Needs balancing, to be honest.

come to think of it, castle dead is equally pathetic to the turret, TRUE castle dead has poison, but poison is not gonna help an invading spearton attack, splash damage is. the fact that they dont have splash poison or atleast splash for that matter makes them obsolete towards the castle archer

DragonFrost
02-05-2013, 07:18 AM
Which is why this way, castle archers suck against MASS SWORDS. Assuming the chaos fighter is a noob who never gets bombers and eclipsors, then they are screwed. Turrets will fall, castle deads with fail, statue will fall.

uberman
02-05-2013, 09:42 AM
come to think of it, castle dead is equally pathetic to the turret, TRUE castle dead has poison, but poison is not gonna help an invading spearton attack, splash damage is. the fact that they dont have splash poison or atleast splash for that matter makes them obsolete towards the castle archer

Yes! exactly.
Poison is nice against a single sword on a long map without a meric, its almost certain death. But who cares if one sword is doomed to die in a minute or so while he and his six mates rage away on my statue or miners or crawlers ....

PsychoticCheez
02-05-2013, 12:17 PM
come to think of it, castle dead is equally pathetic to the turret, TRUE castle dead has poison, but poison is not gonna help an invading spearton attack, splash damage is. the fact that they dont have splash poison or atleast splash for that matter makes them obsolete towards the castle archer


Yes! exactly.
Poison is nice against a single sword on a long map without a meric, its almost certain death. But who cares if one sword is doomed to die in a minute or so while he and his six mates rage away on my statue or miners or crawlers ....

The problem with this argument is that in actuality, the castle archer is also useless.


The castle archer is superior to the castle dead, there's no denying that.
BUT if someone is forced to make a castle archer, they are then in a losing situation. Sure, it takes longer to take them out (compared to if they had just a dead), but they're in a losing situation.
Likewise, a Chaos player forced to build a castle dead is in the same predicament.

This sounds pretty balanced to me.


The fact of the matter remains is that in actuality, the:

1. Castle Archer/Dead
2. Turret/wall

Have little implications in winning strategy. Turret is just ...even more useless than the wall.

uberman
02-05-2013, 09:45 PM
The problem with this argument is that in actuality, the castle archer is also useless.


The castle archer is superior to the castle dead, there's no denying that.
BUT if someone is forced to make a castle archer, they are then in a losing situation. Sure, it takes longer to take them out (compared to if they had just a dead), but they're in a losing situation.
Likewise, a Chaos player forced to build a castle dead is in the same predicament.

This sounds pretty balanced to me.


The fact of the matter remains is that in actuality, the:

1. Castle Archer/Dead
2. Turret/wall

Have little implications in winning strategy. Turret is just ...even more useless than the wall.

You make a good point; yes I will try force the enemy to build a caslt archer pressuring his miners with crawlers, but castle archer is not useless - once he builds it, my crawlers are totally ineffective against his economy - which is a very useful 'buying some time' function.
Its only a disater to him if I force him to do it too early, before he can afford it, but once he has a decent income, buying a single castle archer isnt going to cost him the game.

As an order player, buying a castle archer is full protection against both crawlers and bombers, my only starting options. So buying a castle archer stops chaos harassing the order economy, and thus pays back the investment.
As chaos, buying castle dead is a pathetic defence against a few swords (as the damage is so little, no splash damage and poison wont kill before garrison other than on the longesr map). So buying castle dead does not stop his swords attacking the economy, and so doesnt pay back the investment in a similar way.

jli
02-05-2013, 09:49 PM
I haven't played Chaos at all, so forgive me if this is a noobish question, but does not having a wall-like defense mechanism make it harder to defend against spearton rushes?

uberman
02-05-2013, 09:56 PM
I haven't played Chaos at all, so forgive me if this is a noobish question, but does not having a wall-like defense mechanism make it harder to defend against spearton rushes?

Yes.
If he rushes, and you have walls up, it slows him down - this gives you more time to do what ever you are doing to counter - be it more time to smash down his statue or more time to kill his attacking units.
(I assume here were talking about rushing with a group to take your statue, rather than an early spearton)

jli
02-05-2013, 10:16 PM
Yes.
If he rushes, and you have walls up, it slows him down - this gives you more time to do what ever you are doing to counter - be it more time to smash down his statue or more time to kill his attacking units.
(I assume here were talking about rushing with a group to take your statue, rather than an early spearton)

Yeah, I was talking about spearton mass (which a ton of players do for some reason).
Seems to be a disadvantage then. Does Chaos have anything it can do to counter it? Does Medusa's venom flux help?

uberman
02-05-2013, 10:40 PM
Yeah, I was talking about spearton mass (which a ton of players do for some reason).
Seems to be a disadvantage then. Does Chaos have anything it can do to counter it? Does Medusa's venom flux help?

Chaos has some options.
Chaos giants can stun 3 speartons each, and juggers with charge can also stun. Stunned speartons dont do much damage :)

Medusa's venom flux isnt that useful, if used alone, as your statue will fall long before the poison kills the speartons. Its more useful if used as part of a defence plan to kill his army, since evry little helps and the faster you kill all his units, the less statue damage taken.

300noob
02-05-2013, 11:01 PM
Chaos has some options.
Chaos giants can stun 3 speartons each, and juggers with charge can also stun. Stunned speartons dont do much damage :)

Medusa's venom flux isnt that useful, if used alone, as your statue will fall long before the poison kills the speartons. Its more useful if used as part of a defence plan to kill his army, since evry little helps and the faster you kill all his units, the less statue damage taken.
it's a cool way to stop spearton massers, i used to be saved in a battle against a spearton rusher....thanks to swordwraths, few speartons to weaken them (not much) and miners to finish them off. it's funny when 16 miners did the job that 12 swordwraths and 6 speartons couldn't do, killing 27 speartons...:D

PsychoticCheez
02-06-2013, 12:22 AM
You make a good point; yes I will try force the enemy to build a caslt archer pressuring his miners with crawlers, but castle archer is not useless - once he builds it, my crawlers are totally ineffective against his economy - which is a very useful 'buying some time' function.
Its only a disater to him if I force him to do it too early, before he can afford it, but once he has a decent income, buying a single castle archer isnt going to cost him the game.

As an order player, buying a castle archer is full protection against both crawlers and bombers, my only starting options. So buying a castle archer stops chaos harassing the order economy, and thus pays back the investment.

Chaos has the ability to churn out both military and the ocasional miner in the early game.
Order doesn't have this luxury due to more expensive units.

If you're a Chaos player that's beaten back an Order player's troops, then you have both a military advantage and an economic advantage.

It's full protection against crawlers and bombers, but the result is the same, just longer.

stickman311
02-06-2013, 12:34 AM
it's a cool way to stop spearton massers, i used to be saved in a battle against a spearton rusher....thanks to swordwraths, few speartons to weaken them (not much) and miners to finish them off. it's funny when 16 miners did the job that 12 swordwraths and 6 speartons couldn't do, killing 27 speartons...:D

Did you even learn maths?27x3=81 guess your didn't learn maths

DragonFrost
02-06-2013, 07:10 AM
It was an estimation... Also, can someone test how many bombers to kill a spearton? Because then just get that many bombers... When they group at your statue, BOOM.

uberman
02-06-2013, 07:59 AM
Its a lot of bombers, about 14 (speaking from memory) to kill speartons.

kingkickass2013
02-06-2013, 03:30 PM
anyway back to turrets

the way to make the turret better in my book is make it cost 100 gold to research (same as the wall)

but make it cost 75 or 100 gold to make where as the wall is 200, this not only makes the turret a bit more useful on defense and possibly offense but it makes it cost efficient (which i noticed chaos has a lot of cost efficient soldiers)

and for the damage problem, make it hit two enemies at the same time, DONT increase its damage, just make it so it fires two shots at two different enemies at the same time, if there is only one foe it shoots 2 shots at that single foe

Giz
02-06-2013, 03:33 PM
anyway back to turrets

the way to make the turret better in my book is make it cost 100 gold to research (same as the wall)

but make it cost 75 or 100 gold to make where as the wall is 200, this not only makes the turret a bit more useful on defense and possibly offense but it makes it cost efficient (which i noticed chaos has a lot of cost efficient soldiers)

To be truthful ive seen players that keep 2 miners near their armies so that when they get attacked they can use the turrents for back up support :confused:

That Other Guy
02-06-2013, 06:31 PM
Shouldn't this be in the chaos section?
@malbence, he's talking about the turret, not the castle dead ^^

Of course not!

asdfstick
02-06-2013, 06:38 PM
My option: either increase damage, faster attack rate, or reduce the mana to 0(for research).

uberman
02-06-2013, 11:13 PM
Reducing the mana would be a good option, it would make it available as a defensive option for chaos on a small map to survive the initial attack of swords. Maybe not a smart option, not an OP option, but at least a possible option :)
Currently, the mana cost means it is unavailable (or lose the game expensive) early on, and simply crap later on.

WyzDM
02-06-2013, 11:43 PM
Medusa's venom flux isnt that useful, if used alone, as your statue will fall long before the poison kills the speartons. Its more useful if used as part of a defence plan to kill his army, since evry little helps and the faster you kill all his units, the less statue damage taken.

When I start to take control, I go for a medusa to do 2 things: first, it does masssive statue damage, and I can use it for a statue rush. The second, is the next time I storm his base, I cast it right outside the garrison. When he comes out to retaliate... instant poison. :D


I know it's not actually practical, but it's fun, and I've managed to do this on certain high ranking players.

uberman
02-07-2013, 05:34 AM
When I start to take control, I go for a medusa to do 2 things: first, it does masssive statue damage, and I can use it for a statue rush. The second, is the next time I storm his base, I cast it right outside the garrison. When he comes out to retaliate... instant poison. :D


I know it's not actually practical, but it's fun, and I've managed to do this on certain high ranking players.

Hehehe thats just evil - I like it :)

_Ai_
02-07-2013, 06:03 AM
Heh, he did that against me

kingkickass2013
02-07-2013, 08:02 PM
i have an idea to add for both turret and wall, UPGRADES

this will allow you to upgrade the wall and the turret

double turrets, allows you to make 3 turrets and increases fire rate (costs 100 gold)
larger walls, increases wall health by 2 blocks but increases the build time by 10 seconds (costs 150 gold

jerrytt
02-07-2013, 09:51 PM
10 seconds? you do relize that would be downgrade for what most walls are used for (stopping spearton rushers)

Triss
02-08-2013, 11:25 AM
Turret Nerf:
1. Splash Damage
2. Poison Damage
3. A little more health.
Probably like that.

DragonFrost
02-08-2013, 03:48 PM
Well, than I could totally go defense ^^ I got 2 splash poison units (I'm assuming poison is splash too?), which is good for massacring a bunch of units at the same time. Only if triss's suggestion is implemented though.

stickman311
02-09-2013, 12:21 AM
I don't really think there's a need for turrets(except for stick war 2) cuz chaos should have already killed the enemey's statue by the time the enemey gets 15 spears(wings and juggers deafeat them

That Other Guy
02-10-2013, 12:23 PM
Rocket launchers possibly instead of poison. XD

DragonFrost
02-10-2013, 01:24 PM
Rocket launchers possibly instead of poison. XD

so an AOE attack that knocks people back? Sounds good! <sarcasm> (it would make it too op lol)

ShadowyWhisper
02-10-2013, 01:54 PM
I think there should be an attack that makes a unit slow down, but still be functional. Also, maybe make the unit get submerged underground and comes up with half health after 10 or so sec.