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View Full Version : why speartons + archers when there is shadowraths + archers? (and of course a couple)



Cha05Walking
06-20-2013, 04:56 PM
tested in-game

www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay1611289&version=1.65, not against speartons, i combined this strat with my archer strat, not even all 3 castle archers, a couple albows and a magikill could stop me

in the title (and of course a couple of merics)

xanderman222222
06-20-2013, 05:53 PM
Why? Because speartons are tankier,they can go shield wall and have more health not too mention armor! Shadowrath are faster than archidons,running into battle leaving the archidons behind. They also have not so great health,and shinobi turns them invisible leaving archers vunerble.

malbence
06-20-2013, 05:56 PM
Xanderman hit it on the nose. Spear tons are there to block for the archers. Shadows have low health and in shinobi they can't block anything.

daltonwarrior
06-20-2013, 06:06 PM
Speartons don't die as quick as Shadowrath. Speartons work with archers better, You may have dealt a lot of damage but your average health of your force is low, you have to find the balance.
Shadowrath+Merics is actually a good combo though, so long as they stay together.
And they don't block anything at all when they're using shinobi.

Cha05Walking
06-21-2013, 10:20 AM
shadows could assassinate a bunch of archers and do big damage on speartons and at the same my archidons are raining down fire arrows on you, i can attack retreat and attack all over again while you are still trying to build an army, ill try to get a replay soon, the first time i used this the replay did not save

and shadows are way faster than archers so by the time your units are poisoned the archers have caught up and are finishing your speartons and the two merics deal with the shadows low health problem, and if u think your going to poison my archers with a magikill it will still be assassinated, though shadows can still be poisoned when cloaked, but lets leave the magikill out of this for now

think about it

jerrytt
06-21-2013, 11:04 AM
shadows could assassinate a bunch of archers and do big damage on speartons and at the same my archidons are raining down fire arrows on you, i can attack retreat and attack all over again while you are still trying to build an army, ill try to get a replay soon, the first time i used this the replay did not save

and shadows are way faster than archers so by the time your units are poisoned the archers have caught up and are finishing your speartons and the two merics deal with the shadows low health problem, and if u think your going to poison my archers with a magikill it will still be assassinated, though shadows can still be poisoned when cloaked, but lets leave the magikill out of this for now

think about it

And this, my good friends, is why kiting is important.

If you try to chase my archers, I kite you, doing more damage to you than to me. If you go for the cloak, I can outrun you. If you give up the chase, I can forward kite you, doing even more damage.

AND FIRE FUCKING ARROWS DONT DO EXTRA DAMAGE GENIUS.

THEFORCE
06-21-2013, 11:06 AM
Xanderman hit it on the nose. Spear tons are there to block for the archers. Shadows have low health and in shinobi they can't block anything.

Exactly.

Cha05Walking
06-21-2013, 11:21 AM
Archidon - “Fire Arrows”

Effect: Archidons will fire a single flaming arrow with extra range and damage, costing small amount of mana.

found on stickpage game guide

and if they didnt do extra damage then why have it at all?

jerrytt
06-21-2013, 01:18 PM
Archidon - “Fire Arrows”

Effect: Archidons will fire a single flaming arrow with extra range and damage, costing small amount of mana.

found on stickpage game guide

and if they didnt do extra damage then why have it at all?

how about you actually test it? right now the only thing that you get for 20 mana is a little extra range. mabye its a bug idk. asked CRAzY JAY and he said he'll look into it :/

Cha05Walking
06-21-2013, 03:33 PM
cool

but i use fire arrows all the time and i think they do do extra damage, of course we could always do an archidons vs archidons match, one with fire arrows vs one without

jerrytt
06-21-2013, 04:56 PM
cool

but i use fire arrows all the time and i think they do do extra damage, of course we could always do an archidons vs archidons match, one with fire arrows vs one without

Take a swordwrath, or even spearton if you have the patience. count the number of arrows or fire arrows it takes to kill them. In both cases it will be the same. tested and verified by many players.

FailingAtFailing
06-21-2013, 05:04 PM
Archidon - “Fire Arrows”

Effect: Archidons will fire a single flaming arrow with extra range and damage, costing small amount of mana.

found on stickpage game guide

and if they didnt do extra damage then why have it at all?

They only do extra damage to armoured units, armoured units take less damage from all attacks except armour piercing ones like blazing bolts and fire arrows. So fire arrows only do extra damage to giants, albows and speartons if you are facing order.

Cha05Walking
06-21-2013, 05:10 PM
i read back on the guide it doesnt do extra damage on armored units, but anything else it does

Cha05Walking
06-21-2013, 05:12 PM
i read back on the guide it doesnt do extra damage on armored units, but anything else it does

u should have done it against statue cause in that case it does do extra damage watch the damage from the fire arrows piggyback ride onto the attacks from other units

FailingAtFailing
06-21-2013, 05:12 PM
i read back on the guide it doesnt do extra damage on armored units, but anything else it does

Ever heard of glitches? It can be wrong because it is glitched.

Cha05Walking
06-21-2013, 05:15 PM
it is possibility but i suspect that it is no glitch

jerrytt
06-21-2013, 05:18 PM
Let me get this straight. FIRE ARROWS DO NOT DO ANY EXTRA DAMAGE WHATSOEVER. WHATEVER IT LOOKS LIKE IT DOES NOT DO EXTRA DAMAGE. VS SWORDWRATH? 7 SHOTS. VS SPEARTON? 40 SHOTS. NO EXTRA DAMAGE TO ARMOURED UNITS. NO EXTRA DAMAGE TO ANY UNIT. EXTRA DAMAGE TO STATUE? GREAT. AND WHY DO YOU NEED TO USE FIRE ARROWS ON A FRICKEN STATUE?

EXTRA RANGE. THATS IT.TRIED AND TESTED. HIGH PLAYERS ALL AGREE. NO ****** EXTRA DAMAGE.

stickman311
06-21-2013, 08:29 PM
That's cuz shadowraths training time more, cost more, defense less, health less.

ShadowGeneralChaos
06-22-2013, 03:51 AM
In my opinion, shadowrath and archer are the winner. If micro is allowd. Why? Shadowraths just go behind speartons, where there are the archers, assassintate them and then battle spearton with your archers and ninjas...WIN!!!

stickman311
06-22-2013, 06:42 AM
Shadows die easily. Don't forget.

FailingAtFailing
06-22-2013, 01:09 PM
Shadows die easily. Don't forget.

Yep, they have 4 health bars that aren't even armoured. They rely on their shinobi to instantly kill then their speed to get the hell out of there before they get killed. They are meant for hit and runs along with assassinations, not actual combat.

Cha05Walking
06-22-2013, 03:48 PM
fine ill give you that they could never take down a statue, even with a ghost, if the opponent had all 3 castle archers, not even needing their army

Cha05Walking
06-22-2013, 03:51 PM
Shadows die easily. Don't forget.

shadows do way more damage then a speartons can do to it, dont forget, even without poison one on one they are about the same only shadows faster, though i havnt done a one on one battle with them in a while so it might be different now

Cha05Walking
06-22-2013, 03:53 PM
In my opinion, shadowrath and archer are the winner. If micro is allowd. Why? Shadowraths just go behind speartons, where there are the archers, assassintate them and then battle spearton with your archers and ninjas...WIN!!!

and thanks, i believe that your the only one who speaks good on this strat

jerrytt
06-22-2013, 05:46 PM
and thanks, i believe that your the only one who speaks good on this strat

Well, most players dont just stand there if your attacking his archers. There is something called kiting. If you keep chasing, eventually your shaddowwrath can get worn down and you are forced to retreat, or they can get behind a wall and your still forced to retreat. You might kill a few archers, but a good kiter can do lotsa damage to you, kill a shaddowwrath or two, etc.

ShadowGeneralChaos
06-23-2013, 07:46 AM
and thanks, i believe that your the only one who speaks good on this strat

Oh, your welcome...I love ninjas :) And I just want to say this here: Plz stop making multipost, otherwise you get banned, and i dont want to see how a friend get banned ;) so plz stop...


Well, most players dont just stand there if your attacking his archers. There is something called kiting. If you keep chasing, eventually your shaddowwrath can get worn down and you are forced to retreat, or they can get behind a wall and your still forced to retreat. You might kill a few archers, but a good kiter can do lotsa damage to you, kill a shaddowwrath or two, etc.


well, but you know that shadowraths are faster than archers? Just go behind the archers, and then activate shinobie 2..... Ninjas can also take a few arrows and live on. They not die by just a few arrows...

stickman311
06-26-2013, 12:11 AM
Did u know that when they get behind the archers the archers can actually kite foward and kill the other archers when your spears almost done the job? And so the shadowraths never get a chance to attack.

ShadowGeneralChaos
06-26-2013, 03:11 AM
Did u know that when they get behind the archers the archers can actually kite foward and kill the other archers when your spears almost done the job? And so the shadowraths never get a chance to attack.

lol...I thought micro is allowed, so my archers could kite back to castle if speartons are attacking them....

stickman311
06-26-2013, 03:45 AM
lol...I thought micro is allowed, so my archers could kite back to castle if speartons are attacking them....

And the spears are faster than archers so they can catch up and they don't really die easily.

Cha05Walking
06-26-2013, 09:51 AM
they only catch up after a long while they could throw arrows at your speartons maybe 3 4 times before u actually get close enough to attck them, and since archers are slower then shdows and speartons while you go after my archers my shadows can catch up to them and your archers will not catch up for quite a while

ShadowGeneralChaos
06-26-2013, 10:53 AM
they only catch up after a long while they could throw arrows at your speartons maybe 3 4 times before u actually get close enough to attck them, and since archers are slower then shdows and speartons while you go after my archers my shadows can catch up to them and your archers will not catch up for quite a while

Finally someone with the same opinion as me ;) Oh and: It seems that we are the only one who believes in shadows.....

Cha05Walking
06-26-2013, 11:21 AM
Finally someone with the same opinion as me ;) Oh and: It seems that we are the only one who believes in shadows.....

das cool

ShadowGeneralChaos
06-26-2013, 12:20 PM
das cool

WISH THERE WOULD BE MORE...

Wyrmspawn
07-12-2013, 12:21 AM
This argument seems to have invaded my thread on archer-spearton versus flier spearton. I wish to re-poste what was there here.


6 bars doesnt go very far when they've lost two and they're poisoned and their opponents faster than them

and two was an estimation i dont know for sure



Chaos, I don't think you understand the point of having melee units with your ranged units. Your melee units absorb damage FOR your ranged units. The only ranged unit that doesn't need this is the giant, but the giant can only hit one unit at a time and is easily rushed so it needs splash damage like a magikill or more units to compliment it.

Back to the topic, Shadowrath would be HORRIBLE tanks for ranged units, when the go invisible, enemy projectiles will go right through the shadowrath and a volley or two will devastate your ranged units, leaving you with only shadowrath as effective units. Which screws you over even more if they have albowtrosses.

AGAIN! Shadowrath are for "hit and runs" and assassinations. They are not very good as direct combat units compared to speartons.


I'm not so sure; while the spearton archidon formation uses the spearton to tank damage for archidons, there is no set rule that says you can't just go pure guerilla warfare with shadowrath hit and run and archidon kite...

That would take one helluva good micro to pull off though. Probably works on the largest map, but hard to pull off when there is more pressure.


Shadowrath are not good as an army. its as simple as that.

1. shadowrath in shinobi travel slower than most units. So hitting and running archers and speartons is not as simple as you think.
2. if you want your shinobi to actually hit, you would have to go run straight into archer fire and kiting, lose several along the way, get to a point several feet ahead of their army, THEN you can activate shinobi and actually hit something. with half of your shadowwrath left that is. If you can get to me befoer my wall too
3. I can just charge you with my speartons+archidons. Your shadowwrath and archer army wont have enough health to survive the encounter. this is because since shadowrath and speartons are roghly equal in combat, adding archidons to the mix which do MORE damage (percentage wise) to shadowwrath would tip it drastically in my favour. If you tried to even it out by chasing my archidons, I would do the above.
4. Shield bash. Some people use it ( I do too occasionally) A few people are good with it. Pros can sometimes (its somewhat difficult to time, and nothing is certain) stun a retreating (or charging) shadowwrath
leaving it frozen like a stuck pig. You would be suprised to see how fast a group of shadowwrath dies when full on assauted by both speartons and archidons.

While a shaddowwrath archidon army looks good in theory, (hit and run ftw and all that)What happens if running doesnt stop them from getting to you?

And now, my reply to jerrytt:

1: Why can't you just go past the speartons and attack the archers? Sure, shield bash should stop us, but shadowrath have been shown to be fast enough to dodge shield bash before. Again, like I said, this would require one good micro; I can see Wyzdom pulling it off for sure, but yeah, when you're at his level you don't need this strategy anyway.

2: Who says you must shinobi before you reach the archers? Even without shinobi, the shadowrath can run past speartons and attack archers. Simply put your shadowrath not in a vertical line, but a horizontal one. You might lose one shadowrath doing so, but I don't really see 20 archers holding their own against more than 3 shadowrath.

3: Now, the charge would be very difficult to deal with: The only strategy I can use against this is to turtle in advance, dividing your shadowrath into two groups; one attacks, one rests up. The other one gets back from its mission to heal up, your other group is healed up and ready to go.

Of course, if the enemy has too many archers, this might prove difficult to pull off, in which case we go to plan B, available only to micro-masters (sadly, not me):

When the enemy charges, charge right past them as if to attack their statue. If they retarget, they will have their archers in front of their spearton, while your own archers are firing at the backs of their spearton.

If the enemy is surprised, and hopefully he will be, it will take him some while to make up his mind whether to continue their spearton charge towards your archers or to retarget to your shadowrath. If he does the former, kite while your shadows kill his archers.

If he does the latter, well, you haven't used shinobi yet, have you? Just sprint towards his base before turning back and shinobiing past his speartons to attack his archers again.

4: Don't worry, I know how a stunned shadowrath is useless; I play shadowrath myself very often. The trick is to never let a shadowrath attack a spearton in shield wall mode. If the enemy has hidden their archers behind their spearton, your archers can be out of range of theirs while they rain arrows on their spearton. When their spearton charge, your shadowrath shall go shinobi and beat them all, leaving their archers open to attack.

I know, I know, all of these strategies require a whole load of micro to pull off; however, if you manage to be this micro master, you could probably use this strategy very effectively.

DEMONGOD
07-12-2013, 04:35 AM
Well as much as I like shadow wraths, unfortunately they are only good in small groups.

In a shadow/archer vs spear/archer situation the shadows would win normally by assassinating the archers, but sadly it almost never goes this way. Because right when they throw a wall into the equation ( archers behind wall with spear shield wall in front of wall) the shadow wrath become almost useless, because they cant target the wall in the middle, u clik on it and they hit the shielded spear instead, leaving the shadows vulnerable to range attacks.

For this reason to get the full damage potential of the shadows, u need atleast a spear or two, to protect the shadows, allowing them to dish out maximum damage and assassinations, without leaving them exposed.

jerrytt
07-12-2013, 11:04 AM
This argument seems to have invaded my thread on archer-spearton versus flier spearton. I wish to re-poste what was there here.










And now, my reply to jerrytt:

1: Why can't you just go past the speartons and attack the archers? Sure, shield bash should stop us, but shadowrath have been shown to be fast enough to dodge shield bash before. Again, like I said, this would require one good micro; I can see Wyzdom pulling it off for sure, but yeah, when you're at his level you don't need this strategy anyway.

2: Who says you must shinobi before you reach the archers? Even without shinobi, the shadowrath can run past speartons and attack archers. Simply put your shadowrath not in a vertical line, but a horizontal one. You might lose one shadowrath doing so, but I don't really see 20 archers holding their own against more than 3 shadowrath.

3: Now, the charge would be very difficult to deal with: The only strategy I can use against this is to turtle in advance, dividing your shadowrath into two groups; one attacks, one rests up. The other one gets back from its mission to heal up, your other group is healed up and ready to go.

Of course, if the enemy has too many archers, this might prove difficult to pull off, in which case we go to plan B, available only to micro-masters (sadly, not me):

When the enemy charges, charge right past them as if to attack their statue. If they retarget, they will have their archers in front of their spearton, while your own archers are firing at the backs of their spearton.

If the enemy is surprised, and hopefully he will be, it will take him some while to make up his mind whether to continue their spearton charge towards your archers or to retarget to your shadowrath. If he does the former, kite while your shadows kill his archers.

If he does the latter, well, you haven't used shinobi yet, have you? Just sprint towards his base before turning back and shinobiing past his speartons to attack his archers again.

4: Don't worry, I know how a stunned shadowrath is useless; I play shadowrath myself very often. The trick is to never let a shadowrath attack a spearton in shield wall mode. If the enemy has hidden their archers behind their spearton, your archers can be out of range of theirs while they rain arrows on their spearton. When their spearton charge, your shadowrath shall go shinobi and beat them all, leaving their archers open to attack.

I know, I know, all of these strategies require a whole load of micro to pull off; however, if you manage to be this micro master, you could probably use this strategy very effectively.

... You dont see how 20 archers can stop more than 3 shadowwrath? heres a hint. 20 archers practicaly one shot shadowwraths. Any decent kiter could get 4 or so shots on your shadowwraths before they even reach the archers. 3-4 shadowwraths dead.

4. its takes about 4 shinobis to kill a spearton. how many shaddowwrath do you have? 4-6? you can take 2 speartons down. congratz. Im pretty sure i would have more than 2 speartons with me.

Wyrmspawn
07-13-2013, 06:56 AM
@jerryt: Nobody says the shadowrath must be kited. You can try kiting shadowrath anytime; the shadowrath will just micro behind your archers when they fire and then attack. Even assuming that you somehow suck so much at micro that your shadowrath get killed, you would have killed the speartons with archer kite and it will be an archer battle.

4: I never mentioned shinobi; shadows don't need shinobi to one-hit a spearton. What the shadows should do, is just use the general attack and shinobi different speartons. HP drain + shadow superior damage + archers raining arrows on them = speartons dead, shadows highly damaged by enemy archers but alive.

sniperpal
07-13-2013, 09:56 AM
the shinobi are only a threat while cloaked. a group of them deal one wave of massive damage, and then the ranged units tear them apart. shinobi need heavy hitters supporting them to take out all the other enemy troops once the shinobi have eliminated the enemy magikill

jerrytt
07-13-2013, 10:29 AM
@jerryt: Nobody says the shadowrath must be kited. You can try kiting shadowrath anytime; the shadowrath will just micro behind your archers when they fire and then attack. Even assuming that you somehow suck so much at micro that your shadowrath get killed, you would have killed the speartons with archer kite and it will be an archer battle.

4: I never mentioned shinobi; shadows don't need shinobi to one-hit a spearton. What the shadows should do, is just use the general attack and shinobi different speartons. HP drain + shadow superior damage + archers raining arrows on them = speartons dead, shadows highly damaged by enemy archers but alive.

How the hell does microing shadows have anything to do with chasing archers? does microing somehow give it more speed? or are you trying to dodge arrows? Have you even tried that before? now your just sounding like a noob. You may be able to dodge the foirst volley at a long distance, but any closer to max distance all arrows will hit. jeez. AND I THINK I CAN KILL YOUR SHADOWWRATHS BY KITING FASTER THAN YOU CAN KILL MY SPEARTONS BY KITING. even if i had 10 archers kiting, I could easily 2 shot a shadowwrath. And after some testing I found that I could get about 6 hits in before they even catch up to me. 3 shadowwraths dead. "microing" whatever the hell your talking about doesnt help.

poison does so little to speartons its kinda pathetic. maybe after 30 seconds It could take 1 bar off. I think the battle would take less than 30 seconds considering how LITTLE health you have.


Heres a little fact to tell you how fast I can kill you. 20 arrows kills a shaddowwrath. 45 kills a spearton. You might want to put shinobi into the equation, which does about 25% to a spearton. Now thats 33 arrows. Still ALOT more than It takes to kill you. After that we start attacking and losing health at about the same rate FROM attacks. But arrows do more damage to YOU than to speartons.

I should just stop talking. Maybe it works for you at whatever rating you are, but at high levels its a joke.

FailingAtFailing
07-13-2013, 05:15 PM
How the hell does microing shadows have anything to do with chasing archers? does microing somehow give it more speed? or are you trying to dodge arrows? Have you even tried that before? now your just sounding like a noob. You may be able to dodge the foirst volley at a long distance, but any closer to max distance all arrows will hit. jeez. AND I THINK I CAN KILL YOUR SHADOWWRATHS BY KITING FASTER THAN YOU CAN KILL MY SPEARTONS BY KITING. even if i had 10 archers kiting, I could easily 2 shot a shadowwrath. And after some testing I found that I could get about 6 hits in before they even catch up to me. 3 shadowwraths dead. "microing" whatever the hell your talking about doesnt help.

poison does so little to speartons its kinda pathetic. maybe after 30 seconds It could take 1 bar off. I think the battle would take less than 30 seconds considering how LITTLE health you have.


Heres a little fact to tell you how fast I can kill you. 20 arrows kills a shaddowwrath. 45 kills a spearton. You might want to put shinobi into the equation, which does about 25% to a spearton. Now thats 33 arrows. Still ALOT more than It takes to kill you. After that we start attacking and losing health at about the same rate FROM attacks. But arrows do more damage to YOU than to speartons.

I should just stop talking. Maybe it works for you at whatever rating you are, but at high levels its a joke.

Also, to support this arguement, speartons are armoured, which reduces damage from pretty well every source except giants, spells, blazing bolts and poison. And shadowrath only have poison. Which is slower than Internet Explorer.

Cha05Walking
07-13-2013, 06:01 PM
ha,
that was pretty good
this has turned pretty one-sided so im going to leave it be, it was a one time thing anyways
this would never be my go-to strategy

Wyrmspawn
07-14-2013, 12:12 AM
How the hell does microing shadows have anything to do with chasing archers? does microing somehow give it more speed? or are you trying to dodge arrows? Have you even tried that before? now your just sounding like a noob. You may be able to dodge the foirst volley at a long distance, but any closer to max distance all arrows will hit. jeez. AND I THINK I CAN KILL YOUR SHADOWWRATHS BY KITING FASTER THAN YOU CAN KILL MY SPEARTONS BY KITING. even if i had 10 archers kiting, I could easily 2 shot a shadowwrath. And after some testing I found that I could get about 6 hits in before they even catch up to me. 3 shadowwraths dead. "microing" whatever the hell your talking about doesnt help.

poison does so little to speartons its kinda pathetic. maybe after 30 seconds It could take 1 bar off. I think the battle would take less than 30 seconds considering how LITTLE health you have.


Heres a little fact to tell you how fast I can kill you. 20 arrows kills a shaddowwrath. 45 kills a spearton. You might want to put shinobi into the equation, which does about 25% to a spearton. Now thats 33 arrows. Still ALOT more than It takes to kill you. After that we start attacking and losing health at about the same rate FROM attacks. But arrows do more damage to YOU than to speartons.

I should just stop talking. Maybe it works for you at whatever rating you are, but at high levels its a joke.

Look, time to act your age. Insulting me isn't changing the fact that you have, once more, ignored the points I made and proceeded onwards to make your own. Doing some polite debating with you is remarkably similar to playing chess with a pidgeon; I could be the greatest chess grandmaster in the entire world, but the pidgeon will just knock over the pieces, shit over the board, and strut about proudly, assured of its victory.

Now, I shall assume that you will, for once, read through this.

The shadowrath micro does not give it more speed; what it does is make it rush into the midst of the archers. We don't have to try to dodge arrows; we just have to get into range without allowing the archers to kite more than twice. The good thing about shadowrath are that they are very difficult to out-micro, which means that you can only beat them if they choose to fight you in open combat or if you use enough attacks on them to one-hit them.

Still reading? Good. Now, the shadowrath shall counter the kite by going into the middle of archer mass, slightly past it, even, before attacking. Each time, I assume that the 4 shadowrath shall kill 2 archers, while the remainder of the archers can only kite once before they get attacked again. You are assuming that whoever is using the shadowraths will allow them to be kited.

Now, for the speartons attacking your archers; kite until they are at your base. Best thing would be to kite with the attack and defend buttons, as they allow you to retain manual control over your shadowrath. Just watch the red dots and the black dots on the mini-map instead of checking between two areas. Since the enemy will have to micro his archers into kiting, he will have no time to micro his spearton like you are doing with your shadowrath.

Again, although the shadowrath have less health, their shinobi alone can take off 2 bars from a spearton, making them apparently equal; but their fixate ability shall make them more dangerous than the spearton in a small cluster. In a cluster, the shadowrath won't have to move from combat, while the spearton cannot use their shield wall to block one shadowrath from attacking the archers.

And here's a fact for you as well; a bunch of shadowrath are better at combat than a bunch of spearton. When the shadows are bunched, they don't have to move, which allows their fixate ability to rise to 5X damage pretty quickly.

jerrytt
07-14-2013, 09:15 AM
Look, time to act your age. Insulting me isn't changing the fact that you have, once more, ignored the points I made and proceeded onwards to make your own. Doing some polite debating with you is remarkably similar to playing chess with a pidgeon; I could be the greatest chess grandmaster in the entire world, but the pidgeon will just knock over the pieces, shit over the board, and strut about proudly, assured of its victory.

Now, I shall assume that you will, for once, read through this.

The shadowrath micro does not give it more speed; what it does is make it rush into the midst of the archers. We don't have to try to dodge arrows; we just have to get into range without allowing the archers to kite more than twice. The good thing about shadowrath are that they are very difficult to out-micro, which means that you can only beat them if they choose to fight you in open combat or if you use enough attacks on them to one-hit them.

Still reading? Good. Now, the shadowrath shall counter the kite by going into the middle of archer mass, slightly past it, even, before attacking. Each time, I assume that the 4 shadowrath shall kill 2 archers, while the remainder of the archers can only kite once before they get attacked again. You are assuming that whoever is using the shadowraths will allow them to be kited.

Now, for the speartons attacking your archers; kite until they are at your base. Best thing would be to kite with the attack and defend buttons, as they allow you to retain manual control over your shadowrath. Just watch the red dots and the black dots on the mini-map instead of checking between two areas. Since the enemy will have to micro his archers into kiting, he will have no time to micro his spearton like you are doing with your shadowrath.

Again, although the shadowrath have less health, their shinobi alone can take off 2 bars from a spearton, making them apparently equal; but their fixate ability shall make them more dangerous than the spearton in a small cluster. In a cluster, the shadowrath won't have to move from combat, while the spearton cannot use their shield wall to block one shadowrath from attacking the archers.

And here's a fact for you as well; a bunch of shadowrath are better at combat than a bunch of spearton. When the shadows are bunched, they don't have to move, which allows their fixate ability to rise to 5X damage pretty quickly.

1st of all, I have no idea what this "micro" is that you speak of. the only things you have said is that it allows you to somehow get closer to me without letting me kite. And how do you do that? teleportation? You kinda have to go into more detail of how you can manage to get closer without being kited.

2. Going past the archidon doesnt do much at all, other than making you run less AFTER the first hit. Which is kinda made redundant because of the extra time you took to get into that position. And BECAUSE you took extra time to get that first attack, that gives me one more hit, which may kill one more shadowwrath, which may let me keep one more archer. So going ahead of the archidons is useless. Also, it takes 3 shadowwraths unboosted (and boosted too) to insta kill an archer. If you had 4 or 5, you couldnt one hit kill 2 of them.

3. You are assuming that I sent my speartons at your archers, which I dont do, I just keep them with may archers. And using the defend button may be good for kiting archers, but when used on your shadowwraths, they kinda go BACK to your base, which KINDA puts more distance between them and my archers, which is kinda a fail :/

4.Read my spearton archer vs spearton shadowwrath arguement from the first page. speartons and shadowwrath are roughly equal in combat, so archers are the deciding factor. And since archers do more damage to shadowwrath than they do to speartons, your shadowwrath will die faster. (or i could put a single spearton in shield wall mode in front, so all archer arrows are absorbed by him.)

And fixate does not work when switching targets. Just so you know.

FailingAtFailing
07-14-2013, 10:28 AM
Look, time to act your age. Insulting me isn't changing the fact that you have, once more, ignored the points I made and proceeded onwards to make your own. Doing some polite debating with you is remarkably similar to playing chess with a pidgeon; I could be the greatest chess grandmaster in the entire world, but the pidgeon will just knock over the pieces, shit over the board, and strut about proudly, assured of its victory.

Now, I shall assume that you will, for once, read through this.

The shadowrath micro does not give it more speed; what it does is make it rush into the midst of the archers. We don't have to try to dodge arrows; we just have to get into range without allowing the archers to kite more than twice. The good thing about shadowrath are that they are very difficult to out-micro, which means that you can only beat them if they choose to fight you in open combat or if you use enough attacks on them to one-hit them.

Still reading? Good. Now, the shadowrath shall counter the kite by going into the middle of archer mass, slightly past it, even, before attacking. Each time, I assume that the 4 shadowrath shall kill 2 archers, while the remainder of the archers can only kite once before they get attacked again. You are assuming that whoever is using the shadowraths will allow them to be kited.

Now, for the speartons attacking your archers; kite until they are at your base. Best thing would be to kite with the attack and defend buttons, as they allow you to retain manual control over your shadowrath. Just watch the red dots and the black dots on the mini-map instead of checking between two areas. Since the enemy will have to micro his archers into kiting, he will have no time to micro his spearton like you are doing with your shadowrath.

Again, although the shadowrath have less health, their shinobi alone can take off 2 bars from a spearton, making them apparently equal; but their fixate ability shall make them more dangerous than the spearton in a small cluster. In a cluster, the shadowrath won't have to move from combat, while the spearton cannot use their shield wall to block one shadowrath from attacking the archers.

And here's a fact for you as well; a bunch of shadowrath are better at combat than a bunch of spearton. When the shadows are bunched, they don't have to move, which allows their fixate ability to rise to 5X damage pretty quickly.

1. Yea, the best way to counter archers is to run into their arrows. I must point out that unlike speartons, shadowrath are unarmoured, meaning they take much more damage from projectiles. I think armoured units take about a third of the damage from most sources compared to unarmoured units (from experience with archers [unarmoured] and albowtrosses [armoured]). SOOOOOO if you run into my arrows, each volley would probably take out a good chunk of your ninjas health. One attack, I kite some more, another volley and I might have killed a number of ninjas equal to or exceeding the number of archers you killed. And archers are cheaper and load faster than ninjas too, so my army would be at full strength before your army could.

2. If you go past my archers, I could kite the other way. Even in a 2-D world, there are multiple directions.

3. What if I send my speartons to attack your shadowrath? Once they are dead, your archers are doomed because speartons are armoured and take less damage from your petty arrows.

4. Why would I use shield wall against shadowrath? With lag, it would be dificult to bash a fast target like shadowrath. In fact, if I really wanted to be effective, I would have my archers kiting (if you chase them) and spreading out the damage, while my spears focus on the lower health shadowrath. Each shadowrath gone is one less shinobi, which is a big hit since shinobi is really the main point of shadowrath.

5. Also, Fixate only stacks if they attack the same unit continously. Hence, bunching up shadowrath isn't effective, they should all be attacking different units optimally. Which complicates micro since with spears, I could just all focus on one unit and not really care, saving me time, and giving me more time to do other stuff, like loading more units while you have to focus on constantly retargeting your shadowrath.

Shadowrath are for hit and runs. They go in, kill a mage, leave. That is all. Using them for direct combat is stupid. It's like the Vietnam War. The vietnamese were like shadowrath and the US was like speartons. The vietnamese didn't fight them head-on, they knew they would take heavy losses or major defeat. So they did hit and runs, if I remember my history correctly.