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Wyrmspawn
07-10-2013, 08:33 AM
It was a while ago, so I don't have a replay; but there are some guys who use their miners to pray while most of us get swords or archers. Then, when we attack, they have amassed 50 mana. They buy a spearton and use it to obliterate the swords or archers of most starting moves, and then press the miners into garrissoning. By the time I got castle archer, I was 2 miners behind and totally out of troops.

I'm still not sure if this is a good start or not; if the enemy opts to turtle from the start, you wouldn't be able to kill many miners before you have to flee, and you would be behind in the miner race. However, on short maps, very few people opt to turtle; most of us immediately use the swordwrath rage or swordwrath-archidon combo in a micro war as soon as possible.

But having fought it, I'm not certain if it is a ludicrous start or just an unexpected one.

Also, this might be a good strategy against chaos; I can't really see bombers and crawlers killing a spearton.

merich1
07-10-2013, 08:57 AM
It was a while ago, so I don't have a replay; but there are some guys who use their miners to pray while most of us get swords or archers. Then, when we attack, they have amassed 50 mana. They buy a spearton and use it to obliterate the swords or archers of most starting moves, and then press the miners into garrissoning. By the time I got castle archer, I was 2 miners behind and totally out of troops.

I'm still not sure if this is a good start or not; if the enemy opts to turtle from the start, you wouldn't be able to kill many miners before you have to flee, and you would be behind in the miner race. However, on short maps, very few people opt to turtle; most of us immediately use the swordwrath rage or swordwrath-archidon combo in a micro war as soon as possible.

But having fought it, I'm not certain if it is a ludicrous start or just an unexpected one.

Also, this might be a good strategy against chaos; I can't really see bombers and crawlers killing a spearton.

3 Swords solo a Spear, so... no.

But against Chaos... maybe. Unless he does the same thing and gets a Juggerknight. Then you're screwed.

ShadowGeneralChaos
07-10-2013, 09:16 AM
3 Swords solo a Spear, so... no.

But against Chaos... maybe. Unless he does the same thing and gets a Juggerknight. Then you're screwed.

Or you stand on your base with your spearton...and when he attack with his jugger, counter with spearton and your miners ;)

Wyrmspawn
07-10-2013, 09:34 AM
@merich1 Yes, that was what I thought would happen; but what I didn't put into the equation in time was that my swords would be attacking one by one. To counter this, I would still have to retreat to save up 3 swordwrath while he gets his own miners, which puts us apparently equal; he would just use that time to get more miners and make up for lost time.

40fy
07-10-2013, 11:56 AM
Dont you already have at least one sword from the time it took for him to get 50 mana? :confused:

BTW, this is a very common opening among the 1400 players, so I have beaten it a few times. Usually my opponent is unable to get his economy up to where it should be in time.

jerrytt
07-10-2013, 12:45 PM
early spearton is a joke:/ just sayin.

just garrison your miners for a bit while you keep buying swords.if one sword is about to die, garrison it. keep attacking with a steady stream of swords. win. Or, you could just get 2 swords and force his miners to retreat. if he tries to attack your miners garrison them. you now have 5 or so miners compared to his 3, with both forced inside. theres really nothing good that he can do with a spearton if you know how to manage your troops.

xanderman222222
07-10-2013, 02:00 PM
early spearton is a joke:/ just sayin.

just garrison your miners for a bit while you keep buying swords.if one sword is about to die, garrison it. keep attacking with a steady stream of swords. win. Or, you could just get 2 swords and force his miners to retreat. if he tries to attack your miners garrison them. you now have 5 or so miners compared to his 3, with both forced inside. theres really nothing good that he can do with a spearton if you know how to manage your troops.

This^ lol early spear can be killed by crawler massing at start lol just sayin,or just go 3 swords XD

fhtrg
07-10-2013, 03:17 PM
Against chaos they can get a juggernight. You probably don't have shield wall or bash, so it can kill it! Well, 4 swords can kill a spear, so get them if you suspect the spearton thing.

Cha05Walking
07-10-2013, 06:16 PM
i havent done the early spearton thing in forever
i mean it will get you through the 1200s, maybe 1300s with luck
weird
i havent been on in like a week or 2

FailingAtFailing
07-10-2013, 09:13 PM
sword and archer start, when he gets a spearton, you might have a sword. 2 swords and an archer beats a spearton and will get the tower sooner which is an economy boost.

Spearton attacks swords, probably kills them both but will probably get finished by the archer. If it goes for the archer, it might get a hit or two in, but the kiting archer will continually deal damage and when the spear pauses to attack, the swords will also do some damage. Once the archer retreats into the castle, the spearton will be forced to attack either miners or swords, which will usually result in its death by the archer coming out. If it switches to attack the archer, bad move, archer goes right back into the castle and comes out once spear leaves.

Spearton start is kinda bad and unreliable. The only situation where I see it working is if the other person gets all miners, in which case you can rush his miners, or if he gets an archer and sword, but doesn't get another sword, and even then it could be kinda iffy since they can get another sword somewhat quickly once they see the spearton.

jerrytt
07-10-2013, 09:18 PM
sword and archer start, when he gets a spearton, you might have a sword. 2 swords and an archer beats a spearton and will get the tower sooner which is an economy boost.

Spearton attacks swords, probably kills them both but will probably get finished by the archer. If it goes for the archer, it might get a hit or two in, but the kiting archer will continually deal damage and when the spear pauses to attack, the swords will also do some damage. Once the archer retreats into the castle, the spearton will be forced to attack either miners or swords, which will usually result in its death by the archer coming out. If it switches to attack the archer, bad move, archer goes right back into the castle and comes out once spear leaves.

Spearton start is kinda bad and unreliable. The only situation where I see it working is if the other person gets all miners, in which case you can rush his miners, or if he gets an archer and sword, but doesn't get another sword, and even then it could be kinda iffy since they can get another sword somewhat quickly once they see the spearton.

or instead of leting your swords die, you can withdraw them and save them for later. then, whe the spearton is at 1/3 or lower health, send them out for a push to force him to retreat.

merich1
07-10-2013, 09:56 PM
Spear start is helpful when they start with 2 Miners, wait for the first income, then get a Castle Archer. Spear camps outside Castle Archer's range and comes in if the Miners try to mine.

Xate
07-10-2013, 10:06 PM
Early Spearton? Really? No. It's useless in my opinion. To anti this as Chaos, get your two crawlers away from the spears and hit and run the miners, therefore, harassing eco while you build more miners and crawlers. Should he attack miners, garrison. Attack statue? Just keep spamming crawlers.

40fy
07-15-2013, 06:49 PM
I never even thought of that- the swords harassing his eco while you build more miners and a castle archidon. You could destroy all of his miners and force him to forfeit.

Dazzy
07-16-2013, 07:48 PM
I've played against the Spearton rush on short/medium maps, which I go archidon/swordwrath. I run for a decent amount, but once I get that second swordwrath I can hold my own and that third swordwrath pushes him off. If they try to run, they take several attacks off a swordwrath/archidon. After that, you can just harass him pretty hard and overall, it doesn't look like it works to me. If you don't go for any sort of army on a small map, then it's your own fault if you get owned by a spearton.

Wyrmspawn
07-17-2013, 02:28 AM
Still, nobody in chaos goes for a juggerknight start once they pass the 1400s. They all usually go for crawlers and bombers, both of which are almost useless against the spearton. So, provided the chaos user does not expect this start, would it be possible to win against chaos with a surprise spearton start?

Edit: I now have a link to a battle between me and a chaos player. Tried that early spearton against him, and to my surprise, it worked. He was massing bombers, though, so maybe if he had been using crawlers it would have been different.www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay1994575&version=1.68

krainbow
07-27-2013, 09:24 AM
Still, nobody in chaos goes for a juggerknight start once they pass the 1400s. They all usually go for crawlers and bombers, both of which are almost useless against the spearton. So, provided the chaos user does not expect this start, would it be possible to win against chaos with a surprise spearton

Chaos likes to use fast and cheap units.

The bomber is a good unit for dealing with groups, and the crawler is a weaker but faster and cheaper alternative to the swordwrath. Also the price of the ranged unit (300 gold and 100 mana) and the flying unit (400 gold and 150 mana) means lots of late, experienced chaos players will mass and rush the weak, fast and cheap units.

If the swordwrath didn't cost as much order players would do the same as chaos, and some do still try to mass and rush with mixed results:

Swordwrath mass vs Speartons = Swordwrath win
Swordwrath mass vs 1 Magickill and Speartons = magickill and speartons win.
Swordwrath mass vs juggerknights = juggerknights win
Swordwrath mass vs juggerknights and 1 marrowkai = juggerknights and marrowkai win

Now with Crawlers...

Crawler mass with pack mentality vs speartons = crawlers win
Crawler mass with pack mentality vs 1 magickill and speartons = crawlers win
Crawler mass with pack mentality vs juggerknights = Crawlers win
Crawler mass with pack mentality vs juggerknights and 1 marrowkai = juggerknights and marrowkai win

Crawlers seem to be very effective when upgraded which may be a possible reason but...

Juggerknights are very powerful but cost the same as a spearton so it baffles me why the chaos players don't go for a powerful unit first.
I observed a replay of two high rating (above 2000) players, one order, one chaos and the chaos player used the crawlers as a distraction while the bombers finished the remainders. later after each side had more than eight miners, the chaos player made eclipsors and juggerknights, as a backbone force while the order player used albowtrosses and speartons with 1 giant (Med size) and went on the offensive.
the Chaos player won with 2 juggerknights and 1 eclipsor surviving when the order opponent surrendered just at the end of the battle between the forces.

I think most chaos players just use crawlers and bombers as a defence, as the castle dead is only good against enemies with one health bar and the units are more suited to attack or offence and as it takes time to make juggerknights if the crawlers were any less powerful it would make the chaos player prone to get rushed.

I also noticed chaos is better at attacking and shows this in its units and upgrades Eg Juggerknight charge. while it seems that order is much more defensive as turtleing does not work as well with the chaos units.

Hope i helped :)

Wyrmspawn
07-27-2013, 10:08 AM
I would have replied earlier, but I was convinced I'd get laughed out of my own thread, since I'm a noob.

But here's a noob's guess to why juggerknight start isn't that popular:

It has the same problems as spearton start.

First of all, the juggerknight will win against the spearton, but 3, maybe even 2 swords and an archer can kill the juggerknight.

The reason I suggested this for chaos is that the chaos players only have bombers and crawlers as starting units. Unless they go pure crawlers, this strategy should help you dominate heavily in the early game.

The reason this isn't advisable against order is that order's basic units, the archidon and the swordwrath, can defeat speartons more easily than chaos's starting units, the crawler and the bomber.

If you're a decent kiter, all it would take would be an archer and 2 swords to kill a spearton or juggerknight. That's what I think, anyway.

_Ai_
07-27-2013, 11:05 AM
Crawler mass with pack mentality vs 1 magickill and speartons = crawlers win
Crawler mass with pack mentality vs juggerknights = Crawlers win

These two are wrong. Magikill is like a better marrow. Blast will take most if not all the crawlers. And crawlers have little to no chance winning against juggers

krainbow
07-27-2013, 11:27 AM
Crawler mass with pack mentality vs 1 magickill and speartons = crawlers win
Crawler mass with pack mentality vs juggerknights = Crawlers win

These two are wrong. Magikill is like a better marrow. Blast will take most if not all the crawlers. And crawlers have little to no chance winning against juggers


i watched multiple replays of the battles i mentioned.
For crawlers vs Juggerknights i got that wrong, the juggerknights won not the cralwers, but the crawlers did beat the speartons and magickill as they attacked the magickill FIRST then the speartons were killed leaving only a few cralwers AND The maickill only had blast (If it had the other spells it may have won). Also the crawlers had pack mentality which helps out a lot in massing.

Hope i cleared that up

krainbow
07-27-2013, 11:30 AM
I would have replied earlier, but I was convinced I'd get laughed out of my own thread, since I'm a noob.

But here's a noob's guess to why juggerknight start isn't that popular:

It has the same problems as spearton start.

First of all, the juggerknight will win against the spearton, but 3, maybe even 2 swords and an archer can kill the juggerknight.

The reason I suggested this for chaos is that the chaos players only have bombers and crawlers as starting units. Unless they go pure crawlers, this strategy should help you dominate heavily in the early game.

The reason this isn't advisable against order is that order's basic units, the archidon and the swordwrath, can defeat speartons more easily than chaos's starting units, the crawler and the bomber.

If you're a decent kiter, all it would take would be an archer and 2 swords to kill a spearton or juggerknight. That's what I think, anyway.

What you just said sounds pro. not noob to me :)

PUMU
08-09-2013, 08:41 PM
I've successfully won starting with a meric. But it was a very difficult beginning to transform into a properly functioning one.

Wyrmspawn
08-11-2013, 10:53 PM
How did you make it work?

FailingAtFailing
08-12-2013, 08:03 AM
I've successfully won starting with a meric. But it was a very difficult beginning to transform into a properly functioning one.

https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2727748211/c3d0981ae770f926eedf4eda7505b006.jpeg

How????

DiamondFreak
09-07-2013, 10:48 PM
sword and archer start, when he gets a spearton, you might have a sword. 2 swords and an archer beats a spearton and will get the tower sooner which is an economy boost.

Spearton attacks swords, probably kills them both but will probably get finished by the archer. If it goes for the archer, it might get a hit or two in, but the kiting archer will continually deal damage and when the spear pauses to attack, the swords will also do some damage. Once the archer retreats into the castle, the spearton will be forced to attack either miners or swords, which will usually result in its death by the archer coming out. If it switches to attack the archer, bad move, archer goes right back into the castle and comes out once spear leaves.

Spearton start is kinda bad and unreliable. The only situation where I see it working is if the other person gets all miners, in which case you can rush his miners, or if he gets an archer and sword, but doesn't get another sword, and even then it could be kinda iffy since they can get another sword somewhat quickly once they see the spearton.

Speartons are faster than archers, so it's a bad idea kiting them.

_Ai_
09-07-2013, 10:59 PM
Speartons are faster than archers, so it's a bad idea kiting them.

Are you suggesting that he leaves his archer to be killed by the Spearton?

ShadowGeneralChaos
09-08-2013, 05:58 AM
Speartons are faster than archers, so it's a bad idea kiting them.

And? They are only a bit faster.....yes, spears can catch them up, but: When archers are kiting, they are gaining time, and also while surviving, they damage the spearton....so, kiting isnt a bad idea...

FailingAtFailing
09-08-2013, 07:30 AM
Speartons are faster than archers, so it's a bad idea kiting them.

wut? They're only slightly faster, if you kite well with the G button (heard this is going to be removed though, which makes me sad) the speartons will usually only be able to get one hit on an archer while they get like 5 in on the spearton. In a large group, archers will do insane amounts of damage despite the Spearton Armour. So they might kill 1 or 2 if they all gang up on one archer, HA, I kill like a spearton or two as well with kiting.

Due to the mass amount of damage a swarm of archers can do, I think it's better to get a giant to tank once the enemy exceeds maybe 6, maybe even 8 archers. I usually go for 12 archers if I plan on using them alot though, which still does a decent amount of damage to giants, and if I play it right, the archers out-range the giants too. Ah, archidonis, fairly OP unit I do say.

ShadowGeneralChaos
09-08-2013, 08:04 AM
the G button (heard this is going to be removed though, which makes me sad)

wait a minute...where do you got this? Wasnt it only a suggestion from Vectoroid?

FailingAtFailing
09-08-2013, 08:06 AM
wait a minute...where do you got this? Wasnt it only a suggestion from Vectoroid?

I saw it being thrown around a week or two ago

ShadowGeneralChaos
09-08-2013, 08:09 AM
I saw it being thrown around a week or two ago

you know where?

FailingAtFailing
09-08-2013, 08:24 AM
you know where?

In some strategy threads I think, can't remember which ones. I think it had something to do with G kiting being a glitch apparently.

PUMU
09-09-2013, 08:18 AM
i bought a miner set 3 on pray. eventually bought meric placed all miners on gold bought swords from that point. till i had 3-4. then went to tower to discover sword/arch. got rage. attacked sword then microed my swords with my meric absorbing multiple hits from archidon. still buying miners. got rage loaded. saw a spearton coming. loaded a sword as my meric was attacked killed spearton retreated whilst i still had my one meric only severly wounded. microed my swords some more for the archidon that insisted on staying. killed the archidon. healed swords and somewhat healed meric. bought archidon. sent archidon to scout. saw shadow and ran. bought 2 swords. eventually bought tower. to shadows charge my meric. luckily shinobi 2 hadnt loaded entirely or wasn't equiped. raged the swords meric was killed shadow was killed but the other escaped. bought another meric and arch. tower spawn atked miners with no wall along with archs. saw shadow come out to defend along with albow. raged swords to protect archidons. bought magikill. forgot to buy any upgrades for it though. opponent surrendered. got extremely lucky. that opponent didnt go for things that made sense

Drave25
05-18-2015, 08:48 PM
When your opponent uses this "weird start" I wouldn't know if he is doing it but what I normally would do in this situation is just do my normal strategy. 1 miner and archer at start, Make my archer attack and try to get rid of miners before he gets the spearton. If he garrisons, I would attack his statue for about like 1 - 7 seconds then move on to the middle tower. If he makes the castle archer, Then itll take more time for him to make a spearton and then I make 2 more archers, get shield wall and shield bash if possible then make 1 spearton. Then I put spearton in front and attack him. I make my spearton use shield wall if he is getting attacked. If his spearton ignores my spearton and heads for my archers, I quickly make my spearton chase his spearton and make my archers kite. There ya go. In fact, I managed to do this to someone and he was gonna spearton rush me. He failed.