PDA

View Full Version : Idealistic Army Composition



Dazzy
07-16-2013, 07:55 PM
What do you guys try to aim for mid-late game as your close mineral patches run out and you hit 80/80?

Personally Spearton/Albowtross/2 Merics/1 Magikill is a pretty solid build for me. Sometimes, I have a few Shadowrath mixed in for harassment purposes, but this is usually earlier game when I can actually harass. (Go into opponent's base, Shinobi 2, snipe a medic or miner, run out of there, meric heal).

jli
07-16-2013, 08:39 PM
There is no ideal army composition. My best advice is to get used to using each unit effectively and adapt on the fly.

ShadowGeneralChaos
07-17-2013, 02:06 AM
on late games I always have at least 1 magikill, 1 meric and 1 shadowrath...

xanderman222222
07-17-2013, 08:03 AM
I usually get Spears and Archers,then tech up to Magikill and Giants late game.

ForgottenUser
08-01-2013, 11:57 AM
Old thread I know, but it'd be interesting to know what the best possible army is for Order vs Order if thrown into any situation.
I'd assume you would want to be maxed out on gold and have enough mana to last you through the game and then murder all your miners to get more population availability.
This leaves you with 80 population points and an almost limitless supply of mana and gold (in theory-in an actual game you would be hard-pressed to make it happen).
Current Population: 0
Swordwrath-Magkill behind a wall would kill them quite easily. Mixed in with other units it is still too weak to do as much good as other units. Even with rage, it will be rather ineffective seeing as if you have to many, the enemy will just destroy them all, rendering any help ineffective. How many you want: 0
Current Population:0
Shadowrath-Helpful for destroying walls, clerics and magikill. Too weak to offer much other than support. How many you want:2-3
Current Population: 12
Albowtross-Ideally these shouldn't be put to much use if your army were to be better than theirs, which is the whole point of the thread. Their only bonus is that they can fly and do slightly more damage to armored units. This could probably be debated, but I'd say that Archidons kept out of a Magkill's range would prove much more effective. How many you want: 0
Current Population:12
Archidon-Able to out-range albows and can hide behind giants and Speartons effectively. Can also hit walls while staying out of a magkills damaging range. Poison Spray might hit them, but a few Merics with cure should heal them just fine. Unfortunately, a few Shadowrath or Speartons could tear them up horribly. Could still be used to bait units into a Magkill trap. How many you want: 6
Current Population: 24
Enslaved Giants: Huge meat shield capable of protecting more important units and killing any low level infantry from the enemy. Few weaknesses when used correctly. How many you want:2+Tower Spawn
Current Population: 38
Merics: Able to heal and cure units but easily assassinated or killed by other units. Can be protected somewhat behind a mass of speartons or giants making micro-killing them hard. How many you want: 3-4
Current Population: 50
Magikill: Capable of destroying any mass of units and poisoning heavies such as Giants. How many you want: 3 (Might seem excessive, but 2 up front to kill an infantry mass and 1 behind a wall at base in case the other two are assassinated and there is a spearton rush. Also, you should have enough time on most maps-6/11-to make a second magkill to defend against a thronging horde of spears.
Current Population: 65
Spearton: Capable of tanking lots of damage and stunning units who flee or charge your army, letting the Magikill destroy them with spells. Seeing as 5 is just the right number to stretch across the field with Shield wall... How many you want: 5
Current Population:80
Any revisions to the above? I think it all makes sense for Order vs Order.

merich1
08-01-2013, 12:23 PM
Technically works, but given that you're throwing this straight into late game, Spear Albow defeats Spear Archer. Reason: Spears rush Archers, Archers kite, Albows kill enemy Spears. Spear Archer is more sound only because early-mid game you can basically harass their Miners to death and not let them get their Albows, but in a pure straight-up fight, Spear Albow overpowers Spear Archer. Realistically, you'd have the Spear Archer, but in your scenario, I would have only 1 Meric, 0 Archidons, and enough Albows to fill out the rest of the population.

ForgottenUser
08-01-2013, 03:34 PM
Technically works, but given that you're throwing this straight into late game, Spear Albow defeats Spear Archer. Reason: Spears rush Archers, Archers kite, Albows kill enemy Spears. Spear Archer is more sound only because early-mid game you can basically harass their Miners to death and not let them get their Albows, but in a pure straight-up fight, Spear Albow overpowers Spear Archer. Realistically, you'd have the Spear Archer, but in your scenario, I would have only 1 Meric, 0 Archidons, and enough Albows to fill out the rest of the population.

I addressed the problem with Archidons in my previous post. If the speartons charge them, they will get stunned by a Spearton Wall and hit with spells. If they do manage to slip past, then you know where to aim with the spells yet again. With Speartons effectively neutralized, Giants, Magikill and Archidons can easily take any amount of Albows. Albowtross won't be able to hit the Archidons as they are being protected by Tank Units. And it's not so much of a straight-up fight really. You've got the units working together, which is why I'm going to stand by what I said. As for the only one Meric bit, could you explain? Also, you'd be down a pop. You would only get 79.

40fy
08-01-2013, 04:56 PM
7 Shinobi- To cream enemy merics, mages, and giants.
1 fully grown giant- epic damage tanker
2/3 magikills- To fight archidon masses
Fill the rest of your population with albows. If the game goes late enough that you can sacrifice miners, get another giant and a meric.

ForgottenUser
08-01-2013, 05:21 PM
7 Shinobi- To cream enemy merics, mages, and giants.
1 fully grown giant- epic damage tanker
2/3 magikills- To fight archidon masses
Fill the rest of your population with albows. If the game goes late enough that you can sacrifice miners, get another giant and a meric.
Magikill with a few other units would eat this... horribly.

12121212121212
08-01-2013, 05:37 PM
Magikill with a few other units would eat this... horribly.
Why this is not true:
7 Shinobi- To cream enemy merics, mages, and giants.

40fy
08-01-2013, 06:13 PM
Lol. Not to mention that you cant say what other units.

ForgottenUser
08-01-2013, 08:24 PM
Lol. Not to mention that you cant say what other units.
Honestly, My previously stated army would work if modified just slightly. Instead of 1 Magikill behind a wall/hiding, have 3. My Shinobi Assassinate your meric and 2 of your Magikill. Your Shinobi would obviously murder my poor Magikill, but not before he poison sprays yours. I'd go ahead and say it's safe to assume your Albowtross are basically a goner at this point. If you're good enough at micro to move them away, which you probably are, another magikill comes and poisons your Shinobi. With no meric to cure, they are forced to garrison. Other Magikill come out and pressure your Albowtross. Speartons can keep the giant from doing much to the rest of the units.
Painful? Yes
Unstoppable: No
Unless I missed something? In which case I'd like to hear it. I am probably not at your level yet.

merich1
08-02-2013, 08:29 PM
I addressed the problem with Archidons in my previous post. If the speartons charge them, they will get stunned by a Spearton Wall and hit with spells. If they do manage to slip past, then you know where to aim with the spells yet again. With Speartons effectively neutralized, Giants, Magikill and Archidons can easily take any amount of Albows. Albowtross won't be able to hit the Archidons as they are being protected by Tank Units. And it's not so much of a straight-up fight really. You've got the units working together, which is why I'm going to stand by what I said. As for the only one Meric bit, could you explain? Also, you'd be down a pop. You would only get 79.

1. I'd have my Shinobi II Shadows in to assassinate your Magikill. No more spells for you.
2. I only get 1 Meric because I want that extra population.
3. I meant the same army as you, except 1 Meric instead of 3-4, 0 Archidons instead of 6, and enough Albows to fill out the rest of the population instead of 0. Guess that wasn't exactly made clear...
4. Spearton Wall is rendered useless with Magikill Wall. In fact, it actually works against you. I'd just cast Electric Wall, wait for you to move out of Spearton Wall, then charge.
5. I'm good with theorycraft, but terrible in the actual game, because my micro is seriously bad.

FailingAtFailing
08-02-2013, 08:39 PM
7 Shinobi- To cream enemy merics, mages, and giants.
1 fully grown giant- epic damage tanker
2/3 magikills- To fight archidon masses
Fill the rest of your population with albows. If the game goes late enough that you can sacrifice miners, get another giant and a meric.

If someone turtled well enough, they could hide mages behind walls, wasting your shinobi to assassinate the walls. Now, granted, you might be able to save 5 shinobi uses, but if they stay near their castle, the mages could poison all your ninjas as they approach the statue to attach it. Castle Archer would either target ninjas (damaging them quite a bit) or the giant. Now for the rest of my army, if I do something similar with 2 giants and the rest as albows, I think the chance of your giant falling first is fairly high, at which point I might have one giant left (if you shinobi one giant until it dies) which will tank against my albows, allowing a few volleys to thin your albow numbers giving me range superiority to finally kill all your albows. Also, I must note if you waste all your shinobi on one of my giants, my mage (s) can come out, cast an electric wall on self to defend against ninjas and proceed to decimate an army with spells.

This of course relies on EPIC turtling to be able to survive to make it to this point. But ninjas are somewhat expensive and population heavy. Early game, what is to stop someone from harassing and preventing you from building this army with archers? The instant they see multiple ninjas, they can shift to semi-turtle to defend mages and build their own ninjas if they begin to see your magikill.

40fy
08-02-2013, 10:12 PM
But this isn't a strategy page- its idealistic army compositions.

ShadowGeneralChaos
08-03-2013, 02:24 AM
But this isn't a strategy page- its idealistic army compositions.

Well, but every army is depending on their strategies....

ForgottenUser
08-03-2013, 10:13 AM
Well, but every army is depending on their strategies....

I thought that this was all in theory and not realistic? Because if it isn't, than jli was right. Also, some people would be better micro-ing different units, therefore changing the ideal composition for them.


1. I'd have my Shinobi II Shadows in to assassinate your Magikill. No more spells for you.
2. I only get 1 Meric because I want that extra population.
3. I meant the same army as you, except 1 Meric instead of 3-4, 0 Archidons instead of 6, and enough Albows to fill out the rest of the population instead of 0. Guess that wasn't exactly made clear...
4. Spearton Wall is rendered useless with Magikill Wall. In fact, it actually works against you. I'd just cast Electric Wall, wait for you to move out of Spearton Wall, then charge.
5. I'm good with theorycraft, but terrible in the actual game, because my micro is seriously bad.

1. The Magikill would Electrify themselves. Shinobi would be hurt and start running. Speartons use Bash and Giants stun units. Shinobi are dead. Other Magikill is brought in and either forces you to lose much of your Albow's health+ with not as many merics, they can't recover fast...OR you are forced to run from the army to prevent causalities, therefore sacrificing Tower Spawn and giving up another Giant.
2. Maybe 3-4 is a bit overkill, but I would want a few in case they get assassinated/army begins to lose.
3. I think you're right on the Merics, but I still think that Archidons would be better that Albows. You can have more of them, they can kite far more effectively, and have time to move out of an oncoming electric wall without getting hurt. Also, in the event that it becomes a battle of ranged units, they simply hide behind speartons, making targeting them a flaw (flying over it you would lose too many units). Also, regardless of whether the skirmish is lost or won, they can either tear your albows to pieces by running forward with a meatshield of speartons or run away in the same sense.
4. What if they simply moved forward?/Shinobi got to them first?
5. Same here. XD Chaos made me lose about 200 rating before I started to learn how to micro decently.

merich1
08-03-2013, 10:43 AM
I thought that this was all in theory and not realistic? Because if it isn't, than jli was right. Also, some people would be better micro-ing different units, therefore changing the ideal composition for them.



1. The Magikill would Electrify themselves. Shinobi would be hurt and start running. Speartons use Bash and Giants stun units. Shinobi are dead. Other Magikill is brought in and either forces you to lose much of your Albow's health+ with not as many merics, they can't recover fast...OR you are forced to run from the army to prevent causalities, therefore sacrificing Tower Spawn and giving up another Giant.
2. Maybe 3-4 is a bit overkill, but I would want a few in case they get assassinated/army begins to lose.
3. I think you're right on the Merics, but I still think that Archidons would be better that Albows. You can have more of them, they can kite far more effectively, and have time to move out of an oncoming electric wall without getting hurt. Also, in the event that it becomes a battle of ranged units, they simply hide behind speartons, making targeting them a flaw (flying over it you would lose too many units). Also, regardless of whether the skirmish is lost or won, they can either tear your albows to pieces by running forward with a meatshield of speartons or run away in the same sense.
4. What if they simply moved forward?/Shinobi got to them first?
5. Same here. XD Chaos made me lose about 200 rating before I started to learn how to micro decently.
1. Okay, Shadowraths dead. Yours are too. We lost the same amount. Charge in while your bash is on cooldown and kill all the Archers with my Speartons.
2. If I lose this battle, I'm screwed anyway. So... yeah.
3. The main flaw with Archidons is that Spears can hit Archidons and not Albows. Besides, who Electric Wall's Archers? Blast OHKOs them anyway.
4. Point taken, but out of Shield Wall you can't Shield Bash, and that's when I charge at your Archers.
5. Okay.

ForgottenUser
08-03-2013, 12:08 PM
1. Okay, Shadowraths dead. Yours are too. We lost the same amount. Charge in while your bash is on cooldown and kill all the Archers with my Speartons.
2. If I lose this battle, I'm screwed anyway. So... yeah.
3. The main flaw with Archidons is that Spears can hit Archidons and not Albows. Besides, who Electric Wall's Archers? Blast OHKOs them anyway.
4. Point taken, but out of Shield Wall you can't Shield Bash, and that's when I charge at your Archers.
5. Okay.

1. Agreed. I can't argue that really.
2. I just mean that if it's roughly tied, you'd win due to healing and cure. Especially cure, since the Magikill from the opposite army would use poison spray to their advantage. If your singular Meric was to get assassinated, and i hit your albows, they are all almost guaranteed to die, as well as there being a huge advantage in the ongoing battle.
3. Your army would therefore lose it's shield. What's to now prevent my army from simply advancing and forcing you to hand over tower spawn/killing your albows and giants? Also, I could kite my archers back to the wall where the other Magikill are, and mess all your speartons up without losing much of anything. I suppose that's what I meant from the start.
4. Toggling Shield wall only takes half a second. I could easily shield bash them in time provided shield bash had not been used.

merich1
08-03-2013, 02:05 PM
1. Agreed. I can't argue that really.
2. I just mean that if it's roughly tied, you'd win due to healing and cure. Especially cure, since the Magikill from the opposite army would use poison spray to their advantage. If your singular Meric was to get assassinated, and i hit your albows, they are all almost guaranteed to die, as well as there being a huge advantage in the ongoing battle.
3. Your army would therefore lose it's shield. What's to now prevent my army from simply advancing and forcing you to hand over tower spawn/killing your albows and giants? Also, I could kite my archers back to the wall where the other Magikill are, and mess all your speartons up without losing much of anything. I suppose that's what I meant from the start.
4. Toggling Shield wall only takes half a second. I could easily shield bash them in time provided shield bash had not been used.
1. Okay.
2. Actually, good point. But you have 2-3 Shadows, while I have 3 Magikill. (Unlike you, I'd have them all up front, although my last Magikill would trail the army and come in a small amount of time later.) If you're going to kill my Meric, that leaves one of my Magikill alive, unlike you, who has 3-4 Merics and no spellcasters. I firmly believe a Magikill is worth more than 3-4 Merics, at least in this situation.
3. Let's recap here: I've taken your 6 Archers out of the equation with my 5 Speartons. So with that removed we have 2 Giants v 2 Giants (equal) and a bunch of Albows vs 5 Speartons (easy win) and 3-4 Merics v 1 Magikill / 1 Meric. While yes, your Merics will help in the Giants vs Giants, you can't fix that Albows and Magikill combined do more damage than Spears can do and Merics can heal combined.
4. Okay.

ForgottenUser
08-03-2013, 02:48 PM
1. Okay.
2. Actually, good point. But you have 2-3 Shadows, while I have 3 Magikill. (Unlike you, I'd have them all up front, although my last Magikill would trail the army and come in a small amount of time later.) If you're going to kill my Meric, that leaves one of my Magikill alive, unlike you, who has 3-4 Merics and no spellcasters. I firmly believe a Magikill is worth more than 3-4 Merics, at least in this situation.
3. Let's recap here: I've taken your 6 Archers out of the equation with my 5 Speartons. So with that removed we have 2 Giants v 2 Giants (equal) and a bunch of Albows vs 5 Speartons (easy win) and 3-4 Merics v 1 Magikill / 1 Meric. While yes, your Merics will help in the Giants vs Giants, you can't fix that Albows and Magikill combined do more damage than Spears can do and Merics can heal combined.
4. Okay.
2. When did I say I didn't have any Magikill? I already addressed that in a previous post. I had 4. 3 might die by shadowrath, but another will come later. Also, why shouldn't I simply use my remaining speartons that are still alive to kill your Magikill. 2 Giants + 7-8 Albows wouldn't be able to prevent it too well. Also, the magikill I had destroying your spears would come along. The merics would be able to keep the battle at least somewhat fair until then. Also the Archidons would be back minus a few.
3. How exactly? the whole point of them kiting behind the miner wall still stands as well as the Magikill ready to burn a hole in their armor.

Unless you have anything else to add, perhaps we should just test them and find out?

merich1
08-03-2013, 03:29 PM
Yeah, we should. Except for the fact that... you know... my micro is horrendous? I probably wouldn't even be able to get my Shadows to assassinate correctly.

We should get some pros to do it for us.

ForgottenUser
08-03-2013, 05:29 PM
Agreed. Any volunteers?

Cha05Walking
08-04-2013, 03:00 PM
i think a good army should consist of a couple shadows and 2-3 mages
also include albows speartons, and also merics, 2 merics should do it