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lazar72
12-25-2013, 11:56 AM
This is my Chaos vs Order startegy (my ratng is 2106):
Start 2 craw/2 miners.
Keep making crawlers and miners.
If enemy
-sword mass,make 6 crawlers and start bombs
-archer mass make 3-4 crawlers and 3 bombs and attack them.
You Need amazing micro.If enemy still sword mass,make 2-3 eclipsors to kill them,than make deads.Or if you start winning keep on eclips.
If enemy keep on archer mass,made some medusas (for killing mages),eclipsors(i beated Riddick like that) and giants(longer defend).
LITTLE MAPS:
If you battle enemy FIRST TIME start with 2 miners.Then,when first 2 miners (you got it on start) get gold,you will got 350 gold,than buy castle dead.Than keep making bombs(hide them in castle/behind statue) and just attack miners.If enemy got archer,attack archer.So keep making bombs and miners and fast possible get 2 deads,than jugger than deads and juggers.You will easy beat him :).
When you battle sam enemy SECOND TIME 2 craw/2 miners cause your enemy will think that you gonna do the last strategy ^_^ well he is wrong :).Than mass crawlers:When you make 8 crawlers make bombs and just keep attacking and kill his army ^_^.Later just kep on deads and juggers and he is X_X :P.

Well that is mah CvO startegy.I think it gonna make you little better. P.S. my English is bad :(

Dazzy
12-25-2013, 01:21 PM
I don't play chaos, so yeah. But...

1) castle dead? O_o.
2) 8 crawlers on castle? Gl with that...

Also, you say it like if they mass T1 units you can just tech up to several T2 units or a 400 mana unit.

PUMU
12-25-2013, 09:51 PM
But if you have 6 crawlers only I'll simply micro my swords sending one to the bombs to absorb them. Or rage fake.
You bring eclipsors I'll have my Albows and archer mix before they become a problem. Wall will be built before 3 archers.
Two Albows eventually with meric. Rage your deads. Build shadow shinobi 2. Magikill. Shouldn't need much else aside from two-3 spears

lazar72
12-26-2013, 06:29 AM
But if you have 6 crawlers only I'll simply micro my swords sending one to the bombs to absorb them. Or rage fake.
You bring eclipsors I'll have my Albows and archer mix before they become a problem. Wall will be built before 3 archers.
Two Albows eventually with meric. Rage your deads. Build shadow shinobi 2. Magikill. Shouldn't need much else aside from two-3 spears
Well its not like u think.Lets battle i'll show you :)

Dazzy
12-26-2013, 01:19 PM
But if you have 6 crawlers only I'll simply micro my swords sending one to the bombs to absorb them. Or rage fake.
You bring eclipsors I'll have my Albows and archer mix before they become a problem. Wall will be built before 3 archers.
Two Albows eventually with meric. Rage your deads. Build shadow shinobi 2. Magikill. Shouldn't need much else aside from two-3 spears

Yeah...you can try that.

You know there's this thing called manually controlling bombers? Only a low-mid tier chaos player would get a bomber to run into swords. How would you rage fake anyway?

Lol....albowarchers...pick one or the other please. Also, wall, are you serious...? Like, why would you techswitch to albows in an OvC, that's going to die to wing spam + bombers.

I don't believe lazar has the best guide, esp. Castle dead, but it works much better than your strat

_Ai_
12-26-2013, 01:47 PM
Well its not like u think.Lets battle i'll show you :)

If you're going to show people how it's done in a match then why make a thread for it?

asdfstick
12-26-2013, 09:33 PM
The first strategy is ok but the i'm not sure about the second. Due to lag, I can't get crap done and not playing this for months will also weaken me so I won't be able to try these starts to see how they work :/

Mystery
12-26-2013, 10:02 PM
I have tried match with lazar before, the strat worked really well for him :)

but for me, I failed to use that ....
once I got the castle dead in the early stage, my econ falls behind the opponent , and once the opponent gets a spearton, I cannot do much things :(

PUMU
12-26-2013, 10:02 PM
Rage fake. Select one sword to rage only. Causing the opponent to simply send the bombers to my swords thinking I won't separate them.
Archers and albows is better than simply archers or only albows.
As one has faster foot speed and the other is aerial and can avoid crawlers and bombers to an extent.
Walls to avoid that very annoying bomber rush. With them simply ignoring my units that would be targeting the crawlers and rushing down my archers which I'd split to avoid several dead archers or several dwad miners since CA will hardly ever kill bombers. Or even if they send one crawler to absorb the CA.
Albows and archers is a better approach again since it ignores the tanking of juggler knights a bit. If anything forcing them to the top of the map. Letting my magikill get close enough to poison spray and or meteor smash the wings out of the sky.
I'm not saying I simply send one albow put by himself
Notice that the opponent would have to spam wings to get over my albows armor and more damaging bolts.
Then my magikill uses his pimp hand.
Even if dodged this buys my albows time to reorder themselves or place a meric or spear on top of map to absorb arrows in shield wall. Walls again benefit me by preventing the higher knights from simply charging my magikill.
If they get past my units to be a big enough threat.
A mixture of units is better than a mass or spam in almost all scenarios when done well .

lazar72
12-27-2013, 03:31 AM
If you're going to show people how it's done in a match then why make a thread for it?

I can show for someone who understand,but who can understand he will use it if he needs.


The first strategy is ok but the i'm not sure about the second. Due to lag, I can't get crap done and not playing this for months will also weaken me so I won't be able to try these starts to see how they work :/

Well if you not lag,it works.I beated alot of ppl with that(beated kickman 3 times)
. :)


Rage fake. Select one sword to rage only. Causing the opponent to simply send the bombers to my swords thinking I won't separate them.
Archers and albows is better than simply archers or only albows.
As one has faster foot speed and the other is aerial and can avoid crawlers and bombers to an extent.
Walls to avoid that very annoying bomber rush. With them simply ignoring my units that would be targeting the crawlers and rushing down my archers which I'd split to avoid several dead archers or several dwad miners since CA will hardly ever kill bombers. Or even if they send one crawler to absorb the CA.
Albows and archers is a better approach again since it ignores the tanking of juggler knights a bit. If anything forcing them to the top of the map. Letting my magikill get close enough to poison spray and or meteor smash the wings out of the sky.
I'm not saying I simply send one albow put by himself
Notice that the opponent would have to spam wings to get over my albows armor and more damaging bolts.
Then my magikill uses his pimp hand.
Even if dodged this buys my albows time to reorder themselves or place a meric or spear on top of map to absorb arrows in shield wall. Walls again benefit me by preventing the higher knights from simply charging my magikill.
If they get past my units to be a big enough threat.
A mixture of units is better than a mass or spam in almost all scenarios when done well .

I know,but when you are battling some guy and you dont know his startegy,its little hard.Now u know mine and its easy for u ;P

PUMU
12-29-2013, 11:53 PM
I see what your saying. I have to guess my opponents start when I play. I ordinarily setup a counter to jugger wing mix. Cause most people tend to spam with chaos. Minkra and wyzdm beat me using jugger/deads which is difficult for me to deal with because of the tankyness of deads and the instakill medusa pimphand that slaps my magikill cross his face.

BenTZ
12-30-2013, 03:48 PM
I don't play chaos, so yeah. But...

1) castle dead? O_o.
2) 8 crawlers on castle? Gl with that...

Also, you say it like if they mass T1 units you can just tech up to several T2 units or a 400 mana unit.
Tbh, That is not bad lol, most castle games require a castle dead for defense when using chaos.
I will upload a demonstration on YT soon :P
check it out and you'll learn what he means.

Pricey20
01-01-2014, 08:45 PM
You can never have just one good strategy. Depending on the map, your opponent an there skill brings in so many different factors.

ShadowGeneralChaos
01-04-2014, 04:27 AM
You can never have just one good strategy. Depending on the map, your opponent an there skill brings in so many different factors.

That I must agree ^_^ All strats are ALWAYS depending, on map, on strat of the others, on situation....thats why you shouldnt have a "certain" "whole" strat in your head....but you can have "pieces" of strats in your head, so you can always switch to another strat, when the situation fits. Gl ^_^

Pricey20
01-05-2014, 04:31 AM
Tbh, That is not bad lol, most castle games require a castle dead for defense when using chaos.
I will upload a demonstration on YT soon :P
check it out and you'll learn what he means.

www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay4216559&version=1.86

there ya go, CD ftw

WyzDM
01-08-2014, 08:59 AM
You mention only direct correlation in macro, and while that's fine, there needs to be explanation to map positioning and control. For instance, if within the first few seconds of assaulting the tower you find his swords are being pumped consistently but also forcing your crawlers back, you would want to go bombers earlier if he's chasing to your base. This would forgo the exact 6 crawler count, that's not always reasonable or the best for any situation. You want bombers the moment you're being forced off center.

You need to explain better how to approach archidons. Even if you manage the above macro (which isn't always feasible with map size and pressure) selecting any bomber or crawler units to specifically target 1 archidon will freeze them only a few secons later, and ruin your chase. The reason is because the game recognizes that you've selected a unit, but haven't reached its target over a period a time and therefore that unit must be out of your reach (even if you're right in front of it). When approaching archidons, it's best to keep running to a spot on the map farther or beyond the path of archidons, or use the attack forward button (which would send all your units forward). When you get close enough, then you can select and move to target what's most optimal for your bomber blast, as you want to be wary of a deselection of one of his units to sacrifice one for the rest of his army.

You do not explain when to go wings over deads, and you should not always start with wings. Wings are more powerful against units like swords and spears, while deads are more effective against archidons. Deads are slow moving, but require less resources than wings. It all depends on when you tech up and for what. If the opposing player is pressuring you or using several archidons, grab deads; if you're handling his sword army with bombers or able to fight for center, go for wings.

Even for small maps, you do not always want to start with castle dead. If the enemy player recognizes this, they can hold the tower and wait for assault. Castle dead buys some time, but only against very aggressive players. You also never want to use the bombers for his miners. While it sounds like a good idea, 3 bombers is needed to kill 2-1 miners (if he doesn't split them when he recognizes you're approaching). That's 225g for 150g-300g, which isn't significant and puts you at a deficit if he's holding the tower. This also allows him to attack your base now, as you have no army to keep him out. Even if you pump out more bombers, that is still taking more of your gold off from creating lasting units and building a working army. You should always wait with the bombers, unless he has no army to fear. But even if he approaches your bombers, with enough units he can split down 2 paths int your top and bottom gold rows and force your bombers down on only 1 army group, which allows him to easily harass your miners back while he's building spears, archidons, and everything else to finish you off. Opening with a castle dead is a overly defensive start, and can result in you playing defensively for the rest of the game until you're unable to approach.

What you list last is a method of simply switching your macro. This can be a very smart thing to do, but I believe it's more effective in Order play. Chaos starts are very limited and almost entirely dependent on the Order play-style its facing.

lazar72
01-13-2014, 12:14 PM
You mention only direct correlation in macro, and while that's fine, there needs to be explanation to map positioning and control. For instance, if within the first few seconds of assaulting the tower you find his swords are being pumped consistently but also forcing your crawlers back, you would want to go bombers earlier if he's chasing to your base. This would forgo the exact 6 crawler count, that's not always reasonable or the best for any situation. You want bombers the moment you're being forced off center.

You need to explain better how to approach archidons. Even if you manage the above macro (which isn't always feasible with map size and pressure) selecting any bomber or crawler units to specifically target 1 archidon will freeze them only a few secons later, and ruin your chase. The reason is because the game recognizes that you've selected a unit, but haven't reached its target over a period a time and therefore that unit must be out of your reach (even if you're right in front of it). When approaching archidons, it's best to keep running to a spot on the map farther or beyond the path of archidons, or use the attack forward button (which would send all your units forward). When you get close enough, then you can select and move to target what's most optimal for your bomber blast, as you want to be wary of a deselection of one of his units to sacrifice one for the rest of his army.

You do not explain when to go wings over deads, and you should not always start with wings. Wings are more powerful against units like swords and spears, while deads are more effective against archidons. Deads are slow moving, but require less resources than wings. It all depends on when you tech up and for what. If the opposing player is pressuring you or using several archidons, grab deads; if you're handling his sword army with bombers or able to fight for center, go for wings.

Even for small maps, you do not always want to start with castle dead. If the enemy player recognizes this, they can hold the tower and wait for assault. Castle dead buys some time, but only against very aggressive players. You also never want to use the bombers for his miners. While it sounds like a good idea, 3 bombers is needed to kill 2-1 miners (if he doesn't split them when he recognizes you're approaching). That's 225g for 150g-300g, which isn't significant and puts you at a deficit if he's holding the tower. This also allows him to attack your base now, as you have no army to keep him out. Even if you pump out more bombers, that is still taking more of your gold off from creating lasting units and building a working army. You should always wait with the bombers, unless he has no army to fear. But even if he approaches your bombers, with enough units he can split down 2 paths int your top and bottom gold rows and force your bombers down on only 1 army group, which allows him to easily harass your miners back while he's building spears, archidons, and everything else to finish you off. Opening with a castle dead is a overly defensive start, and can result in you playing defensively for the rest of the game until you're unable to approach.

What you list last is a method of simply switching your macro. This can be a very smart thing to do, but I believe it's more effective in Order play. Chaos starts are very limited and almost entirely dependent on the Order play-style its facing.

I just said my strategy.

Skeletonxf
03-16-2014, 04:54 PM
I don't doubt your ability lazar, but I think you should better phrase your guide or not bother.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=competence+incompetence+conscious+unconsc ious&rlz=1C1PRFB_en&espv=210&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=VR0mU8b_J4_s0gWW-YDQDQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=653

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancing-multiplayer-games-part-4-intuition.html

I hope you get what I mean, I don't have time right now to type up more but I will after I see replies

eBeta
03-26-2014, 09:32 AM
doubt it :P . i fought a chaos player
and here my great succes
http://t.qkme.me/3ttfp5.jpg

WyzDM
04-08-2014, 10:10 PM
Why on earth did you need the magikill to begin with? Spears would be enough.

Nyarlathotep
04-08-2014, 10:47 PM
Cause getting a magikill while crawlers are still useful is possible