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View Full Version : Are deads becoming a more common strategy than eclipsors.



Juggerman1
06-12-2014, 09:26 PM
Since i came back from retirement, ive noticed more and more pros in replays using Deads + Juggers. Is this a coincidence or has the meta strategy actually become Deads + Juggers?

_Ai_
06-12-2014, 09:33 PM
Actually, the Dead Jug meta has been from a long time ago. Since around... A year ago perhaps?

Nyarlathotep
06-12-2014, 09:59 PM
Since A few months after last year's wing nerf actually. Once people realized that wings weren't OP and that deads kill stuff the meta shifted

Juggerman1
06-12-2014, 10:36 PM
So it would be weird if i started doing eclipsors?

Nyarlathotep
06-12-2014, 11:35 PM
They're not bad units. Go for it. Just try to know when you should and shouldn't use them.

Captured
06-13-2014, 10:33 AM
Actually Eclipsors are best vs Order and Elemental,i always use eclipsors in Long maps,but in short maps i use Deads.
With Eclipsors we can shot archers easliy.

BloodxHunter
06-15-2014, 11:14 AM
Deads are just tough. Almost as tough as the JuggerKnights themselves, but they're also poisonous. Which, on top of being cheaper makes it debatable weather or not they're better than eclipsors. But still, can't beat a good Air-force very easily

_Ai_
06-15-2014, 11:39 AM
Dead+Jug is arguably better than wing+jug. The former has poison, easy to mass, takes lower income. Deads themselves are tanks. The con to deads is that they're slow, can't kite. Meanwhile, the latter is airborne, fast, deals more DPS, easy to kite with. The con to them is that they take more income, dies easily.

So I'd say, the only way for Wing+Jugs to best dead+jug is using micro.

BloodxHunter
06-15-2014, 01:52 PM
What about packs of crawlers?as long as they don't get slaughtered by the juggs, they can swarm the deads easily enough. and say your juggers charge to give them some time

Nyarlathotep
06-15-2014, 03:16 PM
Crawler mass in CvC? By the midgame all the opponent needs to do is make bombers and you can't do anything with them...

BloodxHunter
06-15-2014, 04:48 PM
Crawler mass in CvC? By the midgame all the opponent needs to do is make bombers and you can't do anything with them...

Might pull off taking them out with your eclipsors.
But I don't mean a mass, just like 12 of them

_Ai_
06-15-2014, 06:05 PM
12 seems to be a bit too little to be of use.

BloodxHunter
06-15-2014, 06:33 PM
12 seems to be a bit too little to be of use.

their use is to walk past the juggerknights and kill the deads if they can. I don't have enough experience using Chaos, but I think a buffed pack can do that

Nyarlathotep
06-15-2014, 07:02 PM
It doesn't matter how many there are, one or two good blasts will make them all useless. Lol

BloodxHunter
06-16-2014, 12:10 AM
You brought that up already.. I'm not denying that it would, but if they stop the zombies from poisoning my Juggerknights and in fact prevent them from getting bombed, then they have done their job. Also the eclipsors can cover them since they are air units

_Ai_
06-16-2014, 01:38 AM
I'd rather have my juggers bombed than have the crawlers bombed. I'd rather have my juggers poisoned. Juggers are tank units. They are used to tank damage. Juggers are the one that wouldn't be doing their job properly if it lets crawlers be harmed.

Nyarlathotep
06-16-2014, 04:10 AM
12 crawlers = 1200 gold
2 bombers = 150 gold

Not exactly the most even of trades there my friend.

BloodxHunter
06-16-2014, 07:48 AM
I'd rather have my juggers bombed than have the crawlers bombed. I'd rather have my juggers poisoned. Juggers are tank units. They are used to tank damage. Juggers are the one that wouldn't be doing their job properly if it lets crawlers be harmed.

well, true but I use the eclipsors to protect them from bombs While my fresh JuggerKnights destroy their Juggers.

12 crawlers = 1200 gold
8 deads = 2400 gold 800 mana

besides, a buffed pack is faster than any bomb

_Ai_
06-16-2014, 08:18 AM
well, true but I use the eclipsors to protect them from bombs While my fresh JuggerKnights destroy theirs.

12 crawlers = 1200 gold
8 deads = 2400 gold 800 mana

besides, a buffed pack is faster than any bomb

I'm actually too out of the game to determine whether the crawlers upgrade makes them faster than bombs. Huh.

12 crawlers can destroy more deads then a few jugs can. A mass of crawlers is more important then a couple of jugs. If only I can show you this...

PUMU
06-16-2014, 10:46 AM
dude.
crawlers wont do anything vs deads and bombs.
if you're using the crawlers to atk deads more than likely the deads wont be alone and will have crawlers and/or bombers to accompany them.
there is also the h button that lets selected units stand in place without running into the fray like dumbasses.
the bombers can simply run around your juggers to assualt your oncoming crawlers regardless of their speed. your best bet is to split your crawlers and even then wont be of enough damage to successfully take down deads in groups of 6. burn damage plus poison plus other melee units is greater than a few jugs and 12 crawlers. which 2 bombs basically makes that just a few jugs.
wings wont hit the bombers if the opponent also has tanking units. more than likely juggers will take the damage. deads seem to be better than wings in the case that deads themselves are tanky and are produced quicker than wings. the downside to deads is mostly in CvO.
swords seem to do a lot of damage to deads regardless of their tankyness.
i can use just swords and archers to take down those early deads. usually going into archers in case of the wings and for kite softening.
bombers to kill swords and deads to tank archers is how i deal with order. not usually going into wings. jugs dont tank them well enough. archers are usually wayy better than eclipsors in most aspects aside from their inability to avoid melee.
wings rely on heavier early game siege victories to be able to use them. ie crawler/bomber mixes to deal with enemy eco and tower struggle. if not i tend to go deads.

BloodxHunter
06-16-2014, 11:14 AM
well, true but I use the eclipsors to protect them from bombs While my fresh JuggerKnights destroy their Juggers.

12 crawlers = 1200 gold
8 deads = 2400 gold 800 mana

besides, a buffed pack is faster than any bomb

BOMBS WILL DIE!!! long before making it to the crawlers attacking the deads because the eclispors we be above them, Bombs don't stand a chance against a group of archers. Their Juggers are stunned because of mine, so for a moment their Juggerknights won't be able to catch the crawlers. We were debating about deads/Jugger vs Jugger/eclipsor+a pack of crawlers. At least I was, not how many bombs they want to sacrifice to my wings. Crawlers and bombs normally run at the speed of raging swords and ninja(it seems) I'm also talking about springing for P. Edge and Pack Instinct, so I can pull them back without them being killed. I wouldn't let 150 gold destroy my strike team.

Worse comes to worse, the part you are all missing is since the eclipsors are directly above the Deads and crawlers(past their Juggers) My wings might get poisoned, but the crawlers will be safe... about as safe as they can be attacking zombies

Usman
06-16-2014, 12:08 PM
If ur going with a hard opponent, u cant think of any of that. Its not like the oppoenent will let u do everything u want, If I would be there I would just get a jugg for protecting my 2 bombers and then ur eclipsors will be of NO use. Or I would just simply micro my 2 bombers to kill ALL of your crawlers, Its simple, there are many ways

PUMU
06-17-2014, 10:21 AM
If ur going with a hard opponent, u cant think of any of that. Its not like the oppoenent will let u do everything u want, If I would be there I would just get a jugg for protecting my 2 bombers and then ur eclipsors will be of NO use. Or I would just simply micro my 2 bombers to kill ALL of your crawlers, Its simple, there are many ways

he's saying that he will micro and use his juggers to stun yours into being immobile. thusly your bombs will be exposed and hopefully pegged.
however my point is that your crawlers are melee units... and as such must get close to my force in order to be of any use to you.
either way micro or not. you dont send those crawlers into the fray to die. they wont do damage making them nonexistent in either situation.
the target boxes for each unit especially for those of juggers and spears prevents you from simply firing an arrow directly into the unit. to do this you would most likely have to be directly above the bomber and past the jugger.
however doing this would cause your wings to be hit by the resulting blast even if you manage.
a jugger swipe wont clear a bomb just in case this i brought up somehow.
by upgrading your crawlers to a faster speed you are indirectly fucking yourself with the amount of micro required.
you will have to charge your units either by selecting them by spacebar or the foward command button. whilst having to hold your fast crawlers. hoping that you just might have enough time to do all of this simultaneuosly.

1st jugger stun and make sure it only contacts the one jugger (which a player will most likely have more than just one)
2nd make sure that the wings dont fire unnecessary arrows before hitting the bombs whose foot speed allows them to occasionally dodge arrows.
3rd hope you can select the crawlers after the charge and either hold them out of range or flee backwards until bombs are gone.
4th make sure your wings arent the ones getting blasted instead.

all in hopes of getting 12 crawlers to do damage to tanky deads and juggers.

now here's your math lesson.

12 crawlers= 1200 gold
plus pack mentality and speed upgrade=1350ish g 200 mana
plus a wing force totaling of just 5= 3350 g 950 mana
plus the juggers you'll make and their upgrades lets say 2-3 of em=
For your grand total of 4750 g 1300 mana.
plus the micro required to hold this.
vs
2-3 jugs with upgrades=1400 g 250 mana
2-3 bombs=1625 g 250 mana
a force of deads 5= 3125 g 750 mana
oh and poison=3425 g 750 mana.
my army is produced quicker cheaper and tankier than your suggestion.
plus a delayed damage that requires minimal micro.
why wouldnt deads win?
deads in cvc should be a given.

BloodxHunter
06-17-2014, 08:13 PM
he's saying that he will micro and use his juggers to stun yours into being immobile. thusly your bombs will be exposed and hopefully pegged.

however my point is that your crawlers are melee units... and as such must get close to my force in order to be of any use to you.

the target boxes for each unit especially for those of juggers and spears prevents you from simply firing an arrow directly into the unit. to do this you would most likely have to be directly above the bomber and past the jugger.
however doing this would cause your wings to be hit by the resulting blast even if you manage.
a jugger swipe wont clear a bomb just in case this i brought up somehow.

by upgrading your crawlers to a faster speed you are indirectly fucking yourself with the amount of micro required.
you will have to charge your units either by selecting them by spacebar or the foward command button. whilst having to hold your fast crawlers. hoping that you just might have enough time to do all of this simultaneuosly.

1st jugger stun and make sure it only contacts the one jugger (which a player will most likely have more than just one)
2nd make sure that the wings dont fire unnecessary arrows before hitting the bombs whose foot speed allows them to occasionally dodge arrows.
3rd hope you can select the crawlers after the charge and either hold them out of range or flee backwards until bombs are gone.
4th make sure your wings arent the ones getting blasted instead.

all in hopes of getting 12 crawlers to do damage to tanky deads and juggers.

now here's your math lesson.

12 crawlers= 1200 gold
plus pack mentality and speed upgrade=1350ish g 200 mana
plus a wing force totaling of just 5= 3350 g 950 mana
plus the juggers you'll make and their upgrades lets say 2-3 of em=
For your grand total of 4750 g 1300 mana.
plus the micro required to hold this.
vs
2-3 jugs with upgrades=1400 g 250 mana
2-3 bombs=1625 g 250 mana
a force of deads 5= 3125 g 750 mana
oh and poison=3425 g 750 mana.
my army is produced quicker cheaper and tankier than your suggestion.
plus a delayed damage that requires minimal micro.
why wouldnt deads win?
deads in cvc should be a given.

Right, I said the Wings would be moved behind the juggers and above the deads being killed by crawlers to kill oncoming bombers.
I'll simply move them into place and they won't fire till they get there or unless I target a bomb. As you say and as I said they might get poisoned, but bombed? hopefully not. The real trouble there, is if there deads absorb the arrows meant for incoming bombers before my Eclisors are directly above them. after that though the eclipsors have a full view of bombers rushing in.

right, at least when I play, a group like the crawlers hold untill I need them, and 12 would slaughter 2 deads before even needing to be worried about their health because they're out of combat quickly and more than twice the requirement for pack instinct even if a few go. If the deads die, their Juggers will follow. The real question is, would a force like that properly microd be sufficient to press it into their base. God CvC is fun, I wish I still had trials : (

Also, It seems like some of you think the crawlers would be fighting their Juggerkights. I guess they could, but that quick little group are specifically to kill as many deads as they can with concentrated attacks while their Knights are stunned by mine in a fight like that.

ShadowGeneralChaos
06-18-2014, 11:01 AM
I still prefer using eclipsors tho :P except in short maps, there I take deads ^^

_Ai_
06-19-2014, 12:46 AM
You don't have chaos, but you argue with chaos players?

PUMU
06-19-2014, 10:17 AM
you failed to quote anyone, however i assume you are talking to me.
being a current member of sos i have had the oppurtunity to use chaos several times now.
thusly my points have validity to them.
how is your post contributing?

BloodxHunter
06-19-2014, 04:29 PM
Ai's talking to me I bet, but you said pretty much the same thing as I would have

Don't get me wrong Deads are very formidable and I have more experience facing Chaos than I do using them. But I got the opportunity to use everything and the speed of crawlers and eclipsors should not be underestimated.

This is not about a crawler mass in CvC, definitely not a 'Mass'... Obviously Juggs/Deads > Juggs/Eclipsors, I asked if a Buffed group of 12 Crawlers on the Juggs/Eclipsor side with the sole purpose of eliminating their Deads would tip the scales and all of you said no. Are you crazy?

Dazzy
06-20-2014, 05:14 PM
Ai's talking to me I bet, but you said pretty much the same thing as I would have

Don't get me wrong Deads are very formidable and I have more experience facing Chaos than I do using them. But I got the opportunity to use everything and the speed of crawlers and eclipsors should not be underestimated.

Crawler mass in CvC... 'nuff said.

/thread

_Ai_
06-21-2014, 01:57 AM
This is not about a crawler mass in CvC, definitely not a 'Mass'... Obviously Juggs/Deads > Juggs/Eclipsors, I asked if a Buffed group of 12 Crawlers on the Juggs/Eclipsor side with the sole purpose of eliminating their Deads would tip the scales and all of you said no. Are you crazy?

We didnt say no. It's just that you're doing it wrong. We said no to your method, not the build itself.

BloodxHunter
06-21-2014, 04:05 AM
I see, So stunning their juggs, flying above the deads to shoot bombs and sending twice the requirement for pack instinct directly at the deads are the wrong moves. Elaborate then?

TaiTheKidRX
06-21-2014, 09:19 AM
I dont like deads because they are not mobile, they deal lower dps, and they are vulnerable to ground units. Im probably one of the few chaos players that uses wings the most lol, the trick i use to bring wings to their full potential is sniping out archers and support units. Deads cannot they have to take out the tanks first, however deads are better in cvc.

jerrytt
06-21-2014, 12:13 PM
I see, So stunning their juggs, flying above the deads to shoot bombs and sending twice the requirement for pack instinct directly at the deads are the wrong moves. Elaborate then?

If youre getting 12 crawlers, youre wasting valuable "melee" queue time that could be used buying juggers. Even if you started with 4 or so crawlers and bought your way up to 12 before getting juggers, your enemy could have bought 4 juggers in teh time it took you to buy 8 crawlers. i dont know about you but I would take 1 jugger to 2 crawlers anyday.

BloodxHunter
06-21-2014, 01:51 PM
Oh absolutely, but it would be a bad idea to build them that way. and at the rate of gold income I'd be surprised to manage to do that. Let's say you bought 2 crawlers and a juggerknight alternatively, (assuming juggers spawn at 24, eclipsors 20 and crawlers 10 sec.)
in 98 sec. you would have 2 Juggers 5 Crawlers and 4 Eclipsors and well into your 3rd knight
They would have 4 Juggers and 7 deads

5 Crawlers might not be enough to kill 2 deads, and at that pace the eclipsors would have to make up damage to the Juggers. I guess the flaw in my logic was thinking it was going to make it to 80/80. But that also doesn't mean someone couldn't raise the army.
lol, I'm too used to making up for it with a variety.

Nyarlathotep
06-21-2014, 02:11 PM
Let's say you bought 2 crawlers and a juggerknight alternatively, (assuming juggers spawn at 24, eclipsors 20 and crawlers 10 sec.)
in 98 sec. you would have 2 Juggers 5 Crawlers and 4 Eclipsors and well into your 3rd knight
They would have 4 Juggers and 7 deads

Assuming you could gather 3200 gold in 92 seconds you would still be far and away losing. The crawlers and juggers coming out alternatively leaves time to pressure and you without a way to defend your eclips. And, if they make a couple bombers and keep them back you won't have any opportunity to approach. AT ALL.

BloodxHunter
06-21-2014, 02:20 PM
Lots and lots of assuming here, like how they would get that much gold in 90 seconds too. little difference, lone crawlers can't take on a few bombs that early anyways

Nyarlathotep
06-21-2014, 02:29 PM
Well, I was just running by your assumptions. In that situation the deads player would have won.

BloodxHunter
06-21-2014, 02:45 PM
Since we are assuming the eclipsor player would not get enough crawlers to make a significant impact on the Deads, yup.

Nyarlathotep
06-21-2014, 04:16 PM
No amount of crawlers is enough because any amount of bombers kills them.

BloodxHunter
06-22-2014, 02:27 AM
bombers that try to get close get sniped, er excuse me. Assuming the Eclipsor player is good, they would not let them get touched. even if they have to run them away.

_Ai_
06-22-2014, 10:13 AM
They wouldn't send their bombers without any covers. A smart player, anyways. You'd need to have perfect micro to deal significant damage on deads while avoiding bombers.

BloodxHunter
06-22-2014, 06:00 PM
That's the thing, I never meant intercept the ones already in his army. I meant shoot the ones coming from their castle that they produce because they see the crawlers.

Dazzy
06-25-2014, 07:06 AM
That's the thing, I never meant intercept the ones already in his army. I meant shoot the ones coming from their castle that they produce because they see the crawlers.

Assuming they had no scouting information of your crawlers whatsoever.
Assuming your wings stay alive when it's flying above their base with deads below, and bombers (which hit air!)
And assuming you can hit the bombers when miners are there.

BloodxHunter
06-25-2014, 01:59 PM
Assuming they had no scouting information of your crawlers whatsoever.
Assuming your wings stay alive when it's flying above their base with deads below, and bombers (which hit air!)
And assuming you can hit the bombers when miners are there.

That's assuming the crawlers are on the frontlines with the Juggers.
Assuming we are near their base, rather than the middle tower.
But assuming poison does't take out the Eclipsors.
Yes.

Sevarus
07-01-2014, 03:29 PM
i think as well with the lower graded players 1000-1500 find that deads are cheaper so they are available first and they keep on spawning them. Also Deads have poison and when i was 1200 when i brought chaos i thought reads were awesome because they had more health than Order archers and they have an upgrade that gives poison and as an order player it was hard to deal with vs Chaos

Sevarus
07-01-2014, 03:35 PM
Dead+Jug is arguably better than wing+jug. The former has poison, easy to mass, takes lower income. Deads themselves are tanks. The con to deads is that they're slow, can't kite. Meanwhile, the latter is airborne, fast, deals more DPS, easy to kite with. The con to them is that they take more income, dies easily.

So I'd say, the only way for Wing+Jugs to best dead+jug is using micro.

you forgot that that Eclipsors do more damage per hit than deads and that deads have armour

Dazzy
07-02-2014, 05:07 AM
1) Don't double post.

2) Bloodxhunter, play me in a game and show me how this execution works. I'll be in qwebirc.swiftirc.net, #team-zenith channel for a lot of the time.

Sevarus
07-04-2014, 06:01 AM
I don't really care if Stickempires want to punish me for it they can ;)