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ShinobiWarrior1
02-15-2015, 05:33 PM
How do I counter the archer mass as Chaos? I tried bombers, but they were destroyed after my Jug tanks were shield bashed and the archers took a few steps back. Marrowkai are outranged and obliterated before hell fists is in range.

Azxc
02-15-2015, 10:25 PM
it is really hard to counter archers mass with chaos :c
but I still use marrowkais as their reapers can take down the archers one by one

if I know the opponent is going to archer mass I would go wings (to snipe archers) marrow (to reap archers) giant (to tank arrows), quite a strange build tho

But one simple tactic is, simply mass more deads than his archers, with some jugs to tank then you will win lolz, remember to get poison guts

p.s. it is a matter of economy, you can also counter it by suppressing his eco so he got lesser archers

ShinobiWarrior1
02-16-2015, 08:55 AM
Thanks! :)

MasterKaito
02-16-2015, 01:16 PM
archidon match on itself should be easy to counter...if they think as far making shinobi and and spear tanks, it is only a matter of yor micro.

spino
02-17-2015, 03:06 PM
it is really hard to counter archers mass with chaos :c

You alright?

HashBrownTrials
02-17-2015, 03:43 PM
Poison spray, electric wall, blast, a couple spears to tank. Then you should be all good!

spino
02-17-2015, 04:07 PM
Poison spray, electric wall, blast, a couple spears to tank. Then you should be all good!

#chaosempire

HashBrownTrials
02-17-2015, 04:25 PM
#chaosempire

Flux, dead mass with jugs, bombs, Crawler mass.

Azxc
02-18-2015, 09:27 AM
You alright?

u wot m8?
haven't been archer massed by high rank players?


p.s. ofc it is easy when he has only one or two archers but smart ones usually know how to stack up archers srsly
cats and bombs are only early game approach

PUMU
02-18-2015, 10:03 AM
then they surpise tech into jug and rush 3 bombs before a wall can be set up.

Nyarlathotep
02-18-2015, 03:40 PM
Flux, bombs, Crawler mass.

you ok?

HashBrownTrials
02-19-2015, 05:14 AM
you ok?

Yes, totally fine. There's nothing wrong with what I said, flux is perfect to deal with Archidon massing, a mix of jugs with crawlers (with the upgrades) and some bombs Isn't bad. If we're talking about massing archers and nothing else.

ShinobiWarrior1
02-19-2015, 02:45 PM
Ok, what if they have 4 spears in shield wall, 1 giant, and a magikill with a couple of merics? Also, about 30 archers.

spino
02-19-2015, 02:51 PM
Ok, what if they have 4 spears in shield wall, 1 giant, and a magikill with a couple of merics? Also, about 30 archers.

Hax :|

12+7+5+6+60=90 pop

So they might have 12 archers.

12+7+5+6+24=54 leaving 13 miners.

it really isn't archer mass...

_Ai_
02-19-2015, 09:57 PM
It's a balanced army, so not really a mass.

Though imo the best way to counter mass is by aoe, bombers, poison spray, etc.

ShinobiWarrior1
02-21-2015, 10:38 AM
Ok, sorry. That is the late game army. Usually the mid-game army is like a couple of spears in shield wall and 2-3 rows of archers. I guess seeing those archers in mid game made me overreact and call it an archer mass, even though, if I survive to late game, they have a balanced army.

Dazzy
02-27-2015, 12:48 AM
To rekt mass archers pick them off one by one. Order takes shitloads of efforts to keep archers alive. Trust me.

HashBrownTrials
02-27-2015, 09:15 AM
To rekt mass archers pick them off one by one. Order takes shitloads of efforts to keep archers alive. Trust me.

Poison spray is way faster.

Water 1337
06-25-2015, 08:35 PM
Use crawlers with all the upgrades, and some jugger knights, and bombers, that could work, it works for me sometimes

spino
06-26-2015, 05:50 AM
Poison spray is way faster.

No it isn't. You are stalling their approach. In a non laggy game they are typically smart enough to stop and run back.

MasterKaito
06-26-2015, 09:20 AM
5-8 rows of archers with CA3 = gg order

with chaos, you just need to stall and pull off making 8+ bombers

then rush and kill his archers

the pattern of arrows movement and archer/bomber placement thingy causes the arrows from kiting to not kill all the bombers
all you need is 3 bombers to kill them all

AsePlayer
06-27-2015, 08:52 PM
Ahem Ahem.. I think me, being the order player I am, should give advice on how to play chaos. (Because that makes sense lol). Alright... Archer mass is probably almost the most painful o v c situation to be c in. However, There are a couple of ways to counter it. You could A. Get a giant or two paired with deads and just force the player back all the way, then throw down a venom flux so they cannot get passed their second row of gold (if walls) or statue (if no walls) as well as stone facing the spellcasters. You could B. Get some marrowkai action, get like 3 or something and just start reaping them 1 by 1, reap any ninjas that want to shinobi you. You could C. Attack all in with giants or a bunch of jugs for tanks, deads, and keep 4+ bombers behind until you find the right moment to strike, efficiently destroying the archer army, you can throw in a little venom flux to increase the likely hood of actually clapping the archers. You could D. Prevent that from happening in the first place by pressuring eco, or you can do the all popular version E. Lay down and die, then ask how to solve the issues in a Chaos Empire Strategy Forum. ;D

Water 1337
06-27-2015, 09:30 PM
Marrowkais and Bombers

AsePlayer
06-27-2015, 10:25 PM
Marrowkais and Bombers

Wait.. are you saying I shouldn't even bother with ranged units or meatshields or even crawlers to fight for tower? Thanks for this amazing strategy I will try it out right away.

Skeletonxf
06-30-2015, 11:41 AM
Marrows + Bombers + Juggs + Deads works decently.

The marrows eat down archers gradually and bombs force archers to stop constant firing while they dodge, so the Juggs don't get so badly mowed down against Spears and Archers.

I can find a replay of me doing in in a prep if you want.

AsePlayer
06-30-2015, 11:56 AM
Marrows + Bombers + Juggs + Deads works decently.

The marrows eat down archers gradually and bombs force archers to stop constant firing while they dodge, so the Juggs don't get so badly mowed down against Spears and Archers.

I can find a replay of me doing in in a prep if you want.

What do you do if opponent has ninjas picking away your marrows?

spino
06-30-2015, 01:17 PM
What do you do if opponent has ninjas picking away your marrows?

You reap them dumbass

AsePlayer
06-30-2015, 11:41 PM
You reap them dumbass

Then you wouldn't be reaping the archers, isn't that the whole point of the marrow's? At least that is what the earlier posts said. Plus, shinobi ahead of time or just wait out the reap. For example, bait the reap and run back as much as possible, so you won't go as far. Then boom. Shinobi.

_Ai_
06-30-2015, 11:53 PM
why are you reaping archers

Sevarus
07-01-2015, 02:30 PM
that's what you do in a normal spear archer situation. you don't want to tempt spers onto your deads or marrow you remove the dps from order by reaping them and using hell fists (which probably need a range buff)

spino
07-02-2015, 05:54 AM
Then you wouldn't be reaping the archers, isn't that the whole point of the marrow's? At least that is what the earlier posts said. Plus, shinobi ahead of time or just wait out the reap. For example, bait the reap and run back as much as possible, so you won't go as far. Then boom. Shinobi.

I don't usually have to worry about stuff cause of my build (huehue) I push him into his base and hellfist him. (Eclipsors numbers are quick, if he dosen't space properly he dies). They have to have a strong pressuring early game for me to have issues reaping a ninja.

AsePlayer
07-05-2015, 04:23 PM
I don't usually have to worry about stuff cause of my build (huehue) I push him into his base and hellfist him. (Eclipsors numbers are quick, if he dosen't space properly he dies). They have to have a strong pressuring early game for me to have issues reaping a ninja.

What kind of 1200 players do you go against?

Pricey20
07-05-2015, 09:50 PM
best way i find, early pressure with cats on swords shortly followed by bombs to push opponent of center tower an back into spawn, try to keep atleast 4 cats an a bomb around the early game so that when opponent has 1st archer ready with sword/s and tries to reclaim center you can atleast have a fighting chance to snipe the archer quick an manouver around sword hits to keep cats alive and regenerating ( depending on opponent you might not kill archer but you pushed him back off tower an back into his spawn while maintaining pressure) you now have options and should be ahead eco wise.

Thats my brief sum up of how to prevent not necessarily deal with a mass. fact of the matter is if he has a mass of archers and you dont have sufficient deads or juggs to counter then its gona be a downward slope from there. Constant pressure with chaos is vital!!!!!!!!!!!!

AsePlayer
07-06-2015, 07:43 AM
best way i find, early pressure with cats on swords shortly followed by bombs to push opponent of center tower an back into spawn, try to keep atleast 4 cats an a bomb around the early game so that when opponent has 1st archer ready with sword/s and tries to reclaim center you can atleast have a fighting chance to snipe the archer quick an manouver around sword hits to keep cats alive and regenerating ( depending on opponent you might not kill archer but you pushed him back off tower an back into his spawn while maintaining pressure) you now have options and should be ahead eco wise.

Thats my brief sum up of how to prevent not necessarily deal with a mass. fact of the matter is if he has a mass of archers and you dont have sufficient deads or juggs to counter then its gona be a downward slope from there. Constant pressure with chaos is vital!!!!!!!!!!!!
A good order player would probably get a wall so you cant bomber stream or have the archers in really any danger.

spino
07-06-2015, 10:08 AM
A good order player would probably get a wall so you cant bomber stream or have the archers in really any danger.

Deads or good eclipsor pushes

AsePlayer
07-06-2015, 11:15 AM
Deads or good eclipsor pushes

Wouldn't the wall be for early game, meaning tank into spears and more archers, perhaps pop in a meric or two?

spino
07-06-2015, 11:32 AM
Wouldn't the wall be for early game, meaning tank into spears and more archers, perhaps pop in a meric or two?

Wall probably forces them to give up tower, for they got it to stop their opponent. Chaos players has advantage, probably has 2 deads/eclipsors and a jug by 3:00. Can stream juggerknights and their ranged unit. Spellcaster a little over 5 minutes to stop mages coming into play.

IMO Eclipsors work better vs archer mass. Any micro mistakes, you can pick of the archers even though it requires more micro yourself, you also don't have to worry about pushing in to far as often.

Pricey20
07-06-2015, 11:25 PM
then thats perfect, if i force someone into getting a wall, i have tower then im gonna stream deads with a couple juggers untill your pushed right back to statue

Skeletonxf
07-07-2015, 10:10 AM
Then you wouldn't be reaping the archers, isn't that the whole point of the marrow's? At least that is what the earlier posts said. Plus, shinobi ahead of time or just wait out the reap. For example, bait the reap and run back as much as possible, so you won't go as far. Then boom. Shinobi.
If he shinobis ahead of time you just walk your Marrow backwards and it stays alive because the Ninja doesn't reach it
If he waits for you to reap you just don't reap with all your Marrows and then his ninjas do nothing. You can also use Jugg charge to pressure ninjas trying to stay in the fight without diving spellcasters under reap. Juggerknight pressure should force the Ninja away or to Shinobi, at which point you do as above and walk away from it.

MasterKaito
07-07-2015, 02:23 PM
IMO Eclipsors work better vs archer mass. Any micro mistakes, you can pick of the archers even though it requires more micro yourself, you also don't have to worry about pushing in to far as often.

deads are tankier and op in a mass

dead mass > eclipsor mass

also aren't dead snipes the same thing because of poison

the poison should usually kill them off as archer mass is only a problem in long maps (the archer won't survive the trip back to garrison in medium)

and when you do push in, garrisoning archers under poison snipes is hard because, well, it's a mass

spino
07-07-2015, 03:41 PM
deads are tankier and op in a mass

dead mass > eclipsor mass

also aren't dead snipes the same thing because of poison

the poison should usually kill them off as archer mass is only a problem in long maps (the archer won't survive the trip back to garrison in medium)

and when you do push in, garrisoning archers under poison snipes is hard because, well, it's a mass

But you can't escape, Have to juggerknight stream the whole time because you cannot run away. Dead snipes=/=Eclipsor snipes. Eclipsors snipe are instant and have possibilities for more due to eclipsor speed. while dead target downs one archer can tank all the hits and they'll run away while eclipsors hit forward kite repeat.

Basically eclipsors are more risky with the possibility of a greater payout CvO

@Skele If you have marrowkia then you logically have a good ranged force and can kill the reaped ninjas on their return trip. So they do nothing and die. If you don'tn feel you can kill ninjas with just ranged you charge with jugs.

nutsophast
07-09-2015, 12:44 AM
Ninjas aren't too much of a problem as problem.

Like you said, wings can chase and kill archers and they are more flexible early on. You have to be aggressive early and keep up the pressure. However wings suffer greatly against turtles, they're too weak to handle that.

I find that deads can be much more powerful in the long run. You have to advance slowly as you gain more deads, this way you def don't lose that ground. When you push the archers back there is no need to escape, deads are much better against turtles, in large numbers even merics can't heal all the damage. Deads are easily the ones that have a greater pay off.

Mystery
07-09-2015, 01:05 AM
this is pretty much an arguement of dead/wing again

in my experience of dealing with archer masser like slipnot/destruitor2013/Lanicifir , deads are always the way that I go for
not only because deads come out faster and cheaper cost, but also they are more tanky and won't be sniped by archer due to protection of jug.
The poison guts also eliminates the possibility of order turtle.

Wings only work when the order player did not get a wall . With a wall and meric support, order player can easily turtle and deal with damage from wings.
So far as a main order player, 90% of my OvC losses were from deads, not from wings.

Dazzy
07-09-2015, 05:11 AM
Short answer: You don't.

Long answer: There's no cost-efficient way of dealing with an archer mass. Just pressure in before he solidifies it esp. if you crack in his tanks.

nutsophast
07-09-2015, 08:58 PM
Deads are more expensive in the long run though. To get your first dead you need 300 gold to get your poison upgrade. And you need lots of mana to keep up with the 10 mana per gut, 6 miners if the order player has merics. I find it's good to use marrows, you could reap archers to get killed by your deads. Chaos is basically the stronger empire in the mid-game, you could easily kill order before they pull off an extremely lethal mass.

Mystery
07-10-2015, 12:44 AM
Deads are more expensive in the long run though. To get your first dead you need 300 gold to get your poison upgrade. And you need lots of mana to keep up with the 10 mana per gut, 6 miners if the order player has merics. I find it's good to use marrows, you could reap archers to get killed by your deads. Chaos is basically the stronger empire in the mid-game, you could easily kill order before they pull off an extremely lethal mass.

no lol

only first dead more expensive
but each dead = 300gold + 100 mana, each wing = 400 gold + 150 mana

so the gold cost alone wings are already higher. Also getting mana is much more easier in med game/late game than getting gold lol

Besides, I don't find any efficiency of using marrow. Medusa is much better choice as medusa can one hit kill magikill/V/ninja. The venom flux can also work as inferno meteor lock, can also prevent chaos player from chasing by archers.
Marrow is only single target, the reap cannot even kill one arch, and hell fist is extremely difficult to target and low power. Azxc is the exceptional case of using marrow tho

nutsophast
07-10-2015, 03:51 AM
I suppose you're kind of right. But if you make one little mistake with eco management you will not have mana for anything. I don't see azxc having any exceptional skill with marrow lol. I think only person who really knows about marrow is probably gamer.

Sevarus
07-10-2015, 08:53 AM
Does anyone feel that hell fists needs a range incraese? Maybe one more fist bigger fists or more spread out fists it seems you have to be very close to use hell fists. While blast e wall Posion spray are easy to aim and or have better range.

Magikill also have 1 more spell (thats fair I have no problem with that) but the spells all have shorter cool down than reaper and hell fists.

Just came in too my mind while people were talking about hell fists

spino
07-10-2015, 10:18 AM
and hell fist is extremely difficult to target and low power. Azxc is the exceptional case of using marrow tho

.-.
I still instakills archers and brings swords down to 25% if you hit correct angle, but you only get the angle vs 1600 and lower players who are not yet micro masters.

Mystery
07-10-2015, 10:42 AM
.-.
I still instakills archers and brings swords down to 25% if you hit correct angle, but you only get the angle vs 1600 and lower players who are not yet micro masters.

considering the fact that hell fist takes extra 50 gold + 100mana+ 40 secs long queue time for researching , while it has a cool down of 20 sec
but the hell fist power is lower than the blast of magikill,20 mana for each spell, the area of damage is smaller, difficult to micro ,and unstable damage.

and look at magikill
0 cost for blast, a short cool down of 13 sec, with a very nice AoE + damage.

The full damage of hell fist (with perfect micro) is only almost comparable to blast , but consider the cost + queue time + difficulty to micro, it is quite unfair lol

so I honestly had the idea that hell fist needs a buff long time ago. But no one agree with me lol

AsePlayer
07-10-2015, 10:46 AM
considering the fact that hell fist takes extra 50 gold + 100mana+ 40 secs long queue time for researching , while it has a cool down of 20 sec
but the hell fist power is lower than the blast of magikill,20 mana for each spell, the area of damage is smaller, difficult to micro ,and unstable damage.

and look at magikill
0 cost for blast, a short cool down of 13 sec, with a very nice AoE with strong burn damage.

so I honestly had the idea that hell fist needs a buff long time ago. But no one agree with me lol

It's okay mystery I agree with you :D.

But if hell fists start reking me in my O v C, you're dead to me. >;D

Sevarus
07-10-2015, 11:24 AM
Hell fists needs a buff

Damage is definatly unstable i sometimes insta kill archers some times i dont. Unlike Blast I have to think about how I use the spell blast is quick and you can move on too the next spell. Also by the time you have used it once the battle is over before you can use it again.

What about a extra fist?

15s Cool down

30s Research

Maybe larger fists?

I think it's also unfair that the Magikill has 3 spells that have lower cooldown than a marrow that has 2 spells and longer cool down.

AsePlayer
07-10-2015, 01:25 PM
I think it's also unfair that the Magikill has 3 spells that have lower cooldown than a marrow that has 2 spells and longer cool down.

Yeah, then again a meric doesn't insta kill most units either.

nutsophast
07-10-2015, 11:46 PM
Well, hell fists only has a high skill ceiling. If you can aim it properly the damage is far from unstable. The only buff that would make sense is range, then it might be easier to line up that hell fist. Imo it's not very good to compare marrow to mage and say that it's UP, mage is all about that aoe while marrow is not.

Azxc
07-11-2015, 02:54 AM
No hell fist is already strong as it is
and Mystery, magikill blast>hell fist are you kidding me o_O

maybe true if the target is stationary but I don't know
you gonna hit him with 2 fists instead of 1 fist only then while require precise timing (and luck?)

Sevarus
07-11-2015, 03:39 AM
@aseplayer

I'm saying they could maybe relax the cool down on hell fists and or a slight range buff

I get that Magikill are aoe and that's fine. Marows are half assasin (reap) and half aoe (hell fists) please tell me what hell fists is if it is not aoe? Is it a also a 'assasin spell'?

Mystery
07-11-2015, 05:31 AM
Well, hell fists only has a high skill ceiling. If you can aim it properly the damage is far from unstable. The only buff that would make sense is range, then it might be easier to line up that hell fist. Imo it's not very good to compare marrow to mage and say that it's UP, mage is all about that aoe while marrow is not.

"if you can aim it properly"

I played chaos for more than 1 year, and got to dm No1 with chaos long time ago, and I still find it so difficult to "aim properly" -_- LOL
Hell fist itself is an AoE spell , and marrowkai is just another kind of spell caster


If hell fist does not make a nice damage, and you tell me to pay 400 gold + 400 mana for just a unit with reap function only
I would just prefer to stick with juggerknights that can use charge to stun, far more efficient than marrow and cheaper

In my experience of fighting chaos players, I rarely see any marrowkai, all I see is just medusa.
If an unit is underused, that means there are better options rather than getting that unit. (same situation for order archer and albow, archers obviously better , so no one wants to use albows)


Also, imo due to the difficulty to micro that spell and long queue time, the spell deserves a greater power.

Dazzy
07-11-2015, 05:32 AM
The way hellfist works is a mid-range ticking "fist" up from the earth. Everytime a new fist is generated, EVERY FIST ALREADY EXISTING DOES AN ADDITIONAL TICK OF DAMAGE.

This means units standing right next to the marrowkai will take upwards 6 or 7 ticks of fist. That is a fucking shitload of damage. However, further units take less as they'll tank fewer ticks. Keep in mind increasing range will increase damage on the close ticks.

IMO, reduce reap cd by 2 second. This is the main spell of the marrow, not hellfist. This means 3 reaps come 6 seconds faster, which is a huge difference.

Mystery
07-11-2015, 05:40 AM
No hell fist is already strong as it is
and Mystery, magikill blast>hell fist are you kidding me o_O

maybe true if the target is stationary but I don't know
you gonna hit him with 2 fists instead of 1 fist only then while require precise timing (and luck?)

no i am not kidding lol
magikill blast can one hit kill archers and miners(without miner hustle)

but hell fist cannot achieve it without perfect micro , and even with perfect micro, the maximum damage is still almost same as blast with burn lol

----
I think even the damage of hell fist is not buffed, at least the research time and cool down should not be that long lol
13-15 sec like a blast will be much better

Sevarus
07-11-2015, 07:40 AM
Reaper cd should be reduced to 10s
hellfists cd should be to 15s

Why cant hellfists be better than Blast?

its researched Blast isent that's resources and time
It costs mana to use
it has higher cooldown
Blast does immediate and DOT damage
Blast is easier to aim
Blast is easier to micro you don't really have to micro blast once
Blast does immediate damage all in one go and is instant you don't have to wait for fists to rise from the ground. If the unit moves even just a little bit hell fists could miss or not the the maximum amount of damage it could.
Hellfists has a oval aiming thing
The damage of blast is the same regardless of how close you are to the center of the spell. if your on the edge you take the same damage. depending on how many fists touch you take less damage.
You have to be very close to get 'lots of fists on the target' Needs a range buff.

The only thing hell fists has going for it is that its probably the best looking spell and marrows are my favorite unit for looks. (if I was being more competitive I would get medusas) The cool down is ridiculous. for a unit that only has 2 spells (maybe increase posion spray and e-wall cool down)

Marrows are very underused

personally when ever I have used them

The battle is already won OR could have been won without the unit.

Reaping giants is a good way to use them. but their spell casters not anti giant units.


PS. Please stop comparing merics to marrows medusas magikills. They are support units not spell casters or if you really want to say their spell casters then their not damage dealing spell casters like a magikill marrow or medusa.

AsePlayer
07-11-2015, 07:55 AM
Marrows are very underused

So are albows. rip ;-;.

Anywaaays. Marrows are not magikill, which is why they don't have similar spells. Each empire should be unique somewhat, just making all spellcasters have blast would be silly. Each spell is used in different ways, you cannot use a marrow as you would use a magikill, which is why you have bad results.

Sevarus
07-11-2015, 08:29 AM
I appreciate that albows are also underused and that very issue was on I brought up on this very forums. If you could care to look up the thread. 'Why do I not see many albows' you will see what we thought of that very matter. I personally believe that albows need a lower research time and a reduction in mana cost by about 25 mana I would also buff albows damage back to the old model and make blazeing bolts do burn damage BUT not constantly like every 6s or so.

I also don't want magikills to be like marrows or for them to have similar spells. I have never requested that marrows have another spell. nor have I asked Magikills to have a single targeting spell. Or have I asked marrows to have a posion spell.

The empires are unique and should stay that way I play Chaos a lot of get a lot of pleasure from it and I love how different it is too order.

When have I ever asked for every spellcaster to have Blast? please explain I was just saying what blast has going for it along with the changes I would make to hell fists.

Infact if you would care to re read my comment. I mentioned I loved marrows cosmetically and hell fists looks great Id never ask for it to be removed.

Its pretty obvious that each spell has different uses and I use hell fists differently to reap to posses to blast to poison spray to e-wall to teleport to dragon summon to metor strke (I think that's them all)

Bad results? I have many replays of marrows killing lots of units and being spectacular killing every archer in sight reaping every meric known to man. but most of the time im 1-2 juggerknights ahead 2-5 deads ahead a clear population advantage and when I look back maybe medusa would have made it a cleaner job.

I think Aseplayer you are bending what I say and you imagine I am not very good and that I have so called bad results. I have played Chaos for a year and am constantly improving. My height was 1900 ELO and if I played more I could easily be 2k but I have to juggle many other games (clash of clans in which I run my own clan, battlefield 4 and fifa 15 to name a few)

Also I find it quite disrespectful to take 1 sentence from a post I took 10-20 mins to construct and then heavily criticize everything I have.... have not said.

PUMU
07-12-2015, 11:57 AM
Medusa seems more defensive in the case of archer mass via poison and stoning priorities. Marrow to press when the opponent is being pushed away, using reap to take merics, hf's to catch clumped archers.
Hellfists should spawn where the back line end point begins and front end ends to utilize the range quality of spells. Retaining its unique(ness?) whils being more reliable as opposed to risky.

Mystery
07-12-2015, 12:16 PM
Medusa seems more defensive in the case of archer mass via poison and stoning priorities. Marrow to press when the opponent is being pushed away, using reap to take merics, hf's to catch clumped archers.
Hellfists should spawn where the back line end point begins and front end ends to utilize the range quality of spells. Retaining its unique(ness?) whils being more reliable as opposed to risky.

not really, i treat medusa very aggressive one. Medusa 's venom flux, in my mind, is the best and most powerful spell in the game

Not only because it can work as inferno to lock the opponent in garrison, but also its cool down time is short and two venom flux pool can exist at the same time.
Even better, it is very accurate and can block opponent from chasing as well.

I did not even have the experience that chaos player killed me with hell fist

PUMU
07-12-2015, 09:30 PM
Thats why hell fists could stand to have a slight fix. similar to how poison spray hits the actual hitbox placement

Sevarus
07-13-2015, 03:07 PM
Hellfists should spawn where the back line end point begins and front end ends.
That's a idea that would seem strange as marrows bang the ground and the fists rise from the marrows fist but apart from that it seems good and would help.

Medusa seems more defensive in the case of archer mass via poison and stoning priorities.

I see Medusa as a ranged assassin I see marrows as spell casters. You use a medusa to prevent a magikill from wrecking you. So if I see a magikill I wouldn't go with a marrows and have a head to head battle of who can use their mage better.

will the marrow help the jugs and deads win the battle or will the magikill and his loyal archers and speartons have something to say about the matter.

I would rather take a medusa take one or two hit from a magikill and stay in a dead jug v speararcher battle which should go well for chaos.

Pricey20
07-16-2015, 04:58 PM
Hellfists should spawn where the back line end point begins and front end ends.
That's a idea that would seem strange as marrows bang the ground and the fists rise from the marrows fist but apart from that it seems good and would help.

Medusa seems more defensive in the case of archer mass via poison and stoning priorities.

I see Medusa as a ranged assassin I see marrows as spell casters. You use a medusa to prevent a magikill from wrecking you. So if I see a magikill I wouldn't go with a marrows and have a head to head battle of who can use their mage better.

will the marrow help the jugs and deads win the battle or will the magikill and his loyal archers and speartons have something to say about the matter.



"will the marrow help the jugs and deads win the battle or will the magikill and his loyal archers and speartons have something to say about the matter... find out next week on Dragon Ball Z!
sounds like the ending to a DBZ episode lol

spino
07-20-2015, 12:31 PM
Marrows are very underused

The battle is already won OR could have been won without the unit.

Reaping giants is a good way to use them. but their spell casters not anti giant units.

www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay10120189&version=2.29
Without marrows I lose no matter what. It is a matter of situation the determains wether you use them or not. In this case He cheese without spear, goes an early giant vs what I was going into a jugeclipsor build into a 6-7 minute giant. I still get the giant (only tank stong enough to last long enough, and I spam giants and marrows. Reaping giant (they are already slow speed), mkae them go in front and prevents them from attacking for X amount of time. I use them a lot personally. Vs order I combine them with medusas to reap a retreating mage into stone range, and stuff like that.

Sevarus
07-20-2015, 01:39 PM
if they get a early giant then marrows are a good option. lure them thou marrows should be more than not anti giant units unless we make marrows that and forget about being a spell caster

if a marrow is out of range of stone face why is it in the range of reap?

The only issue with marrows is hell fists should be slightly better than it is they only have 2 spells hellfists should be a preety decent one. Bigger fists spread out fists or another fist would easily sort this out.

spino
07-21-2015, 06:01 AM
if they get a early giant then marrows are a good option. lure them thou marrows should be more than not anti giant units unless we make marrows that and forget about being a spell caster

if a marrow is out of range of stone face why is it in the range of reap?

The only issue with marrows is hell fists should be slightly better than it is they only have 2 spells hellfists should be a preety decent one. Bigger fists spread out fists or another fist would easily sort this out.

Reap is a strictly offensive spell, of after a bad push by an opponent picking off another unit, which still makes it offensive.I love reap, you can reap ninjas, and magez into medusa range. You can wreck giants. The spellcaster if fine. I use the two equally. Tho I wouldn't mind a hellfist buff even tho it is unlikely.

ChaosmakeuQQ
07-21-2015, 09:53 AM
jug first run 3 bombs behind it then get early marrow

Sevarus
07-21-2015, 10:53 AM
Reap is a strictly offensive spell, of after a bad push by an opponent picking off another unit, which still makes it offensive.I love reap, you can reap ninjas, and magez into medusa range. You can wreck giants. The spellcaster if fine. I use the two equally. Tho I wouldn't mind a hellfist buff even tho it is unlikely.

all the things that you mention can be done by Medusa and done better to be frank. One of the major reason marows are used is that their very good v archers but they cant hit archers very because archers move or some archer will take one fist while some might take 2. The damage doesn't feel equal in all area like blast. I appreciate that marrowkia can be useful to lure giants. you can reap cloacked ninjas but if you can reap a ninja in time you could probably have stoned it. Hell fists main use is anti archers and it doesn't furthil that role very well unless you can suggest another use for hell fists.

I was watching that TZ pod cast and they came up with two ideas

Marrowkia speed boost. I guess so you can get close enough to use hell fists quickly enough.

Cast speed incease I don't think this would work archers could still get out of the way.

Hellfists just needs a slight range increase and then we could take the problems with hell fists as a spell itself knowing that it has other benefits

AsePlayer
07-21-2015, 12:25 PM
you can reap cloacked ninjas but if you can reap a ninja in time you could probably have stoned it.

Not true, the reap can only be cast before a ninja goes shinobi, which will reap it when it is in shinobi since you targeted it first. If you aim at a ninja with stoneface, it will not do anything if the ninja is cloaked, you just wasted your ability and most likely lost your medusa.

marrow doesn't need a speed boost, it's a spell caster. IT IS MEANT to be slow.

Hell fists range increase is meh. I do not believe the marrow was designed to counter archidon mass in the first place, it is mainly used late game. A poison pool will hard counter archer mass, as they cannot move forward with almost an instant death due to poison rekting archers.

Mystery
07-21-2015, 12:30 PM
I prefer hell fist to be doing some comparable damage to blast tho

it is sometimes annoying to see hell fist cannot even kill a miner

spino
07-21-2015, 01:20 PM
Reap is a strictly offensive spell, of after a bad push by an opponent picking off another unit, which still makes it offensive.I love reap, you can reap ninjas, and magez into medusa range. You can wreck giants. The spellcaster if fine. I use the two equally. Tho I wouldn't mind a hellfist buff even tho it is unlikely.

all the things that you mention can be done by Medusa and done better to be frank. One of the major reason marows are used is that their very good v archers but they cant hit archers very because archers move or some archer will take one fist while some might take 2. The damage doesn't feel equal in all area like blast. I appreciate that marrowkia can be useful to lure giants. you can reap cloacked ninjas but if you can reap a ninja in time you could probably have stoned it. Hell fists main use is anti archers and it doesn't furthil that role very well unless you can suggest another use for hell fists.

I was watching that TZ pod cast and they came up with two ideas

Marrowkia speed boost. I guess so you can get close enough to use hell fists quickly enough.

Cast speed incease I don't think this would work archers could still get out of the way.

Hellfists just needs a slight range increase and then we could take the problems with hell fists as a spell itself knowing that it has other benefits

A good order player times it right, you can't stone a ninja. reap is best way because as long as it is casted before ninja cloaks, it works. Medusa has a small range, so you reap things into medusa or dead/eclipsor range to kill them. Hell fists wreck deads, air units, clumped spears, swords, ect. it si all a mater of how it is aimed and how the opponent reacts.

If you completely change hell fists to where it has an easier aim I personally think It'd have to be like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHktPFc4sqQ
Oni's ability where he stabs ground and the swords come up, except 1-3 fists come up and then a group come up in a circle where the circle was place (first 1-3 fists would be very similar to where they are now, and then a circle comes up doing high damage).

However a descent range increase would be very much a buff and fine by myself.

Dazzy
07-21-2015, 11:22 PM
Marrowkai is much much better for offensive zoning than Medusa is, and unlike medusa, will not die to shadowraths.

Sevarus
07-22-2015, 09:41 AM
I prefer hell fist to be doing some comparable damage to blast tho

and this is the golden point

AsePlayer
07-22-2015, 09:56 AM
and this is the golden point

What? you want each fist doing the damage of a blast?

spino
07-22-2015, 12:09 PM
What? you want each fist doing the damage of a blast?

Hell fists cost mana, therefore logic says fist>>Blast

AsePlayer
07-22-2015, 12:43 PM
Hell fists cost mana, therefore logic says fist>>Blast

Logic says- oh wait there is a skeleton walking around nvm there is no logic to be had here.

Dazzy
07-30-2015, 01:19 AM
Hell fists cost mana, therefore logic says fist>>Blast

You can't isolate variables and say that's why X needs a buff. Things like marrowkai has 20 second queue time, has a fast~ walkspeed to most spellcasters, the other spells it has, etc. etc.

Otherwise, swordwraths cost more than cats, they should have more speed.

spino
07-30-2015, 05:54 AM
You can't isolate variables and say that's why X needs a buff. Things like marrowkai has 20 second queue time, has a fast~ walkspeed to most spellcasters, the other spells it has, etc. etc.

Otherwise, swordwraths cost more than cats, they should have more speed.

Its speed is unoticable :P Just sayin,
Swordwraths have more health and do more damage than crawlers, so.

Sevarus
07-30-2015, 07:26 AM
You can't isolate variables and say that's why X needs a buff. Things like marrowkai has 20 second queue time, has a fast~ walkspeed to most spellcasters, the other spells it has, etc. etc.

Otherwise, swordwraths cost more than cats, they should have more speed.

You have mentioned some things that are pro a hell fist buff.

If marrows are faster than most spell casters its unnotiable and part of me doesn't belive you. (Part of me does) queue time is also quite irrelevant it's nice haveing a 20s queue time but id happily have a 30s queue time and he'll fist buff, and you mention other spells theirs only 1 more so those two spells should be equal or better than a magkill spell. Also marrowkia have long cool down on spells reap is counterable and its easy to dodge hell fists blast its preety much undodgable

AsePlayer
07-30-2015, 10:21 AM
You have mentioned some things that are pro a hell fist buff.

If marrows are faster than most spell casters its unnotiable and part of me doesn't belive you. (Part of me does) queue time is also quite irrelevant it's nice haveing a 20s queue time but id happily have a 30s queue time and he'll fist buff, and you mention other spells theirs only 1 more so those two spells should be equal or better than a magkill spell. Also marrowkia have long cool down on spells reap is counterable and its easy to dodge hell fists blast its preety much undodgable

Queue time is pretty relevant, getting things out faster certainly matters.
The marrow's two abilities do not have to balance out to the Magikill's 3 because they are DIFFERENT.
You cannot simply compare totally different spells to one another. Reap has a long cooldown because the devs didn't want the whole order's army to be on the other fucking side of the map in 1 minute.

Sevarus
07-30-2015, 04:40 PM
10s late game is hardly game breaking coupled with the fact mages are are slow its not like a marrow will get their before a magkill is it.

The two ablties should balance out the three as both spell casters should be equal in stength. I don't compare spells.
Reap 12s CD
Hell fists 20s CD

Reaps great that's fair very good cooldown only beaten by blast cool down which I don't have a problem with.
I just think 20s is very extreme for a balanced and fair spell that probably does require a lot of skill to be good. And it's CQB spell. You might only get too use the spell once while the magkill can spam spells all day and still have one to cast. I don't expect marrows to be able to cast as much as a magikill but 2 spells one 20s isent right. 15s or 16s would be much fairer. Considerimg the magikill has

Blast 10s CD
Posion spray 11s CD
E-wall 13s CD

Just out of interest didn't Posion spray have a 8s CD?

Dazzy
08-02-2015, 01:51 AM
wtf is a CQB

and poison got nerfed months ago.

Sevarus
08-02-2015, 06:03 AM
close quarters battle might be

CQC close quarters combat

Dazzy
08-03-2015, 12:00 AM
lol last i checked hellfist is a ranged atk

PUMU
08-03-2015, 05:56 AM
The range of it kinda makes me think its better suited at close.