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PUMU
05-19-2015, 12:24 AM
Alrighty. Let's bring back the chaos peeps!!
First off I wanna say that I am not the best with chaos but I've improved tremendously after noticing several key things after several ranked matches and as a result have crept up the leaderboard with chaos instead of ele. (Honorable mention to my bud myst for being only two below my high score mark. His rating a whopping 2670!! I hope he or myself break the 2.7 barrier but anyhow I'm rambling)

Chaos start that basically is a must and is the most effective:
2 c\2m as this allows for you to have a consistent pace going early game by following this up with 3 c and a miner before you begin to receive a delayed return or 75 for your first bomber followed by another miner and so forth.

Vs order:
The initial fight for tower benefits chaos in a few ways. If won, gives chaos the ability to skyrocket in army and eco and be allowed to manipulate the order eco if played correctly. HOWEVER, in applying pressure one must be wary of how much army the opponent has. Do not waste your entire army in an all or nothing gamble to clap miners. If the order player should return the favor with a decent army it will be difficult to push back if the opponent has a decent amount of archers as a simple sword/archer tank rush effectively suppresses without an army.
After the tower, assuming you won the tower by single targeting swords and throwing a single bomb at a time only spending them to ensure kills (not saying 3 bombs isn't worth the risk but its still a hearty risk at that) begin to shape your eco grabbing poison guts if winning the sword and c/b trade offs. Your opponent should be making archers. Placing your miners on mana @1:40ish to begin to go for your deads (if the opponent has a bigger army in terms of what you may be capable of handling with merely c/b do not risk the army you have, reserve your bombs as a countermeasure for swords to protect your reads. Only using them when a group of enough swords are pressuring your deads. The opponent may split swords so be aware of the possibility and If you see it micro the bombs into both groups one at a time as you see fit. Losing 1 or two deads for 10 swords is a fair trade as you have your c's to semi absorb arrows until they die followed by more deads and a jug. (Research charge as it comes in handy. Using it when a spear presses forward. Hopefully, you can catch it before a possible shield wall command but if not its fine as you get the knock back. Target with single deads at the top and bottom most archers to tag them with poison. Effective at picking off units before merics arrive. If merics, focus on the spear(s). After a sizeable amount of deads secure map positioning either press into enemy base range and harass or solidify your army if need be prior to and be sure to grab Medusa and pool research. Tower prior to Medusa with passive if enemy attempts to turtle. When researchin pool grab another passive.)
When using passives, keep in mind that chaos lacks a heavy reliance in spells unless you plan or require use of the additional support casters or like to spam charge refrain from using these and use the gold and mana in a more useful manner.

Now for wings... Wings are a bit more risky unless you can suppress the archer production early on. The more archers the opponent gets the worse off chaos will be as opposed to j/d meta.
Start is the same, except one may prefer to be more reliant on crawlers as the tankier the better to support the initial wings. If rushed again micro the bombs into them. If not keep em handy and rush them behind your jugs at clumps of archers. If a turtle begins it is advised by my personal preference to mix in deads to maintain positioning using wings as snipe suppression only if need be.

Chaos vs chaos:
2c/2m
Med maps: follow up with 2 or 3 c dependent on micro ability. Only use bombs to guarantee hits!!! I cannot express how important that is. 1616161616 etc.
Short: 2\2 followed with 6616161616

For mana time I cannot say for certain but wings tend to be a better option over deads due to the speed and DPS difference. Unless the map is short where the eco doesn't get to stretch out to second row unless already winning.

Hustle and turrets are effective in CVC.
If j/d vs /j/d whomever can effectively exchange their bombs and bring out more Medusa tends to win.
J/d vs j/w is relient on how effectively one pressures the enemy economy.
J/w vs j/w depends heavily on bomb exchange and poison pool positioning if it goes to that extent.

Chaos vs ele:
2c/2m
Crawler and miner spam, tech to wings, Medusa with p pool, and charge is oddly effective.
Short map however,
2c/2m turret meta works if pressured by going castle dead. Stall with crawlers and turrets until able to tech to wings.
In both situations deads when teched properly position nicely and deliver the poison when its needed on short maps and vs cycloids. Forcing waters to be used in a way other than for trees freezing or cycloids benefits the chaos user as he uses wings as a support tactic. Not as an army.

I may have missed things so feel free to point things out. GLS CHAOS PEEPS!!

Mystery
05-19-2015, 02:39 AM
lol so long

just to mention, I rank classic with order, not chaos
my chaos is not that good comparing with my order/ele.

I am more interested in the CvO part. Dealing with order in castle is so meh .

did not play you for some time, your chaos has outstanding part. Hopefully I can play you more

Anyway nice guide

PUMU
05-20-2015, 12:36 AM
As order or as chaos on castle?

nutsophast
05-20-2015, 03:26 AM
Helped me quite a bit, I'm currently trying to improve my chaos. But can you tell me in a little more detail of what I should do in the early game against swords?

PUMU
05-20-2015, 04:04 AM
Sure thing.
Early game swords/crawler engagement:
2c/2m
Your initial two crawlers will greet the first enemy sword in the case your opponent goes 2s/1m.
Peg and kite with these two for damage as your next crawler shortly arrives. Peg the same sword with crawlers until the second sword reinforces the first. Peg the initial sword until you see a crawler in danger of dying and back that sole crawler away and use your healthy c's to peg the sword again. If played correctly you can clap a sword before the third arrives. Next two crawlers eventually should accompany your three. Your opponent may have 3-4 swords together at this point. This is where you begin to alternate between bombs and miners. With your 5-(6) crawlers in front choose a sword (preferably a weakened one) to hit with all crawlers once, back away with crawlers (slightly so that your simply out of the range of the other swords that will retaliate. Throw the bomb at the weakened sword as well as have your crawlers run in again to guarantee the clap. Hopefully, your bomb may have damaged other swords and makes it easier to repeat the process with the next bomb until you either kill all swords or push them off of tower to regroup. From here your opponent will either play stupid and decide to que even more swords or will start making archers but it a more uncomfortable fashion than they would like to kite your c/b's. Don't be afraid to give up tower but don't give it up easily either. Be aware of the relative strength your starting army has in relation to the opponent before making hasty decisions. If he charges into base with a mob of swords use your bombs carefully and buy castle dead (IF AND ONLY IF CD IS NECESSARY)
Stall into deads. Then switch bombs to a more defensive unit for your deads.
https://youtu.be/VbA7co1Qkq8
On last game galeforce actually used his bombs well enough but stopped using them allowing swords to take deads unopposed . the deads could've handled the archers before the spear was even a factor and the deads could've slowly sapped the health of the swords as they are useless if not attacking if the bombs keep them away as a defensive tool. Bombs are bread and butter.

Mystery
05-20-2015, 05:34 AM
As order or as chaos on castle?

of course chaos -_-

PUMU
05-20-2015, 06:01 AM
Whats the problem you face specifically on short maps vs order?

Mystery
05-20-2015, 10:19 AM
Whats the problem you face specifically on short maps vs order?

of course i know all the legit start of chaos

and 5 cats, with bomber stream, and tech up, all are fine

but when it comes to castle, think about this, by the time you have first three cats, if your opponent are doing MSS -> SS start, you will have almost 3v3 or 4v4 situations, so I am curious to know what you will do
bomber at 3 cats, or insist on getting 5 cats then bomber ?

furthermore, due to limited space, order player may just skip the cats, target 3 swords to 1 miner, and even you sniped one sword, you may already lose one miner, or one miner + one bomber , and he can keep his two swords safe with enough garrison time.

And of course archer / arhcer + sword start are also common. What will you do ?

The micro and macro in castle as chaos make me quite confusing even though I am confident in my chaos. Especially in lag, yea don't know what to do.

PUMU
05-20-2015, 12:00 PM
S/a:
Same tactic but more defensive at first. Stall until you can overwhelm. If he rushes the two swords he has early on, either decide to leave your eco and try to anim cancel miners as you let your crawlers target the archer on a map with limited kiting space as it is or chip away at the sword as the next one follows an simply micro your way out of it. If he relies heavily on the archer for influence by kiting at max range do not chase, just push away. If he doesn't run immediately chase it down. Also using an occasional feint with full health crawlers often is rewarded by the opponent mismicroing and losing the archer. If you manage to push the enemy back into sitting in base momentarily all the better as your bomb stream follows. If the opponent is in base with a garrisoned Archer and a follow up decide whether it is wiser to back away, or run his base. Based on your army relative to his.

2s/1 m vs 2c/2m on short:
The opponent will not have the same number of melee units. Crawlers que faster as you know and get to center much more quickly.
Play it as you would med map if he doesn't rush. There is little difference there (not to mention the tower should be the target for the order player before rushing into base in an all or nothing)
I assume the main difficulty is with an opponent who goes 2s/1m followed up by 2more stacked que swords for the marginal increase in que speed.
It only slightly affects the tower fight by pushing chaos away initially regardless of crawler micro if played correctly by the order player.
The opponent will have bombs in the face if he runs in after 4. At 3, its iffy. If you can read the target, run back with the targeted miner as soon as possible to drag out the death and trade off more pegs to the army or even manage to save it and continue bomb stream as usual even with them at base. The only way the opponent will be able to run swords before you have 5 crawlers will be if he rushes two in even after being initially hit by crawlers which would be at 3 with a follow up crawler that has only to run minimal distance as opposed to the order players sword running the length of the map to support the previous swords. If he runs in and ignores with this then crawler micro ftw.
CRAWLER TIP:
if the opponent spreads out swords or the swords are spaced enough to where you can quickly run in and peg the sword before the others can reach the hit box take it. It helps.

3 crawlers> 1 sword
3 crawlers<2 but with kitin and micro can still clap a sword returning it to a 3v1 quickly increasing the gap to 4v2 as opposed of staying 1 ahead.
4 crawlers ~ two swords if ya micro and are not met with more swords quickly.
5 crawlers usually is matched against 3 swords and is in favor or the order player but with single targeting with bomb support can be manipulated. At that you shouldn't see crazy numbers of swords if you keep them down and guarantee your kills.

So in conclusion, basically the exact same thing but more micro and caution. Vs all 3 order starts
Macro doesn't really change aside from the castle dead being a maybe at best.

This should answer ya for the general scope of the gameplay. However, if something specifically happens in order micro that you see please let me know exactly what that is. Exactly, verbatim.

Edit: just reread that ya cunfirmed MSS TO SS. to answer that yes. Spartanotaku does that virtually every time against me and it hardly changes anything.
Miscrits macro almost forces the CD but can still be stalled against in the instances he doesn't lag which is quite often as relative to before where it was intolerable. He prefers the s/a start and a/m starts as he can't play it the other way for shit. He prefers to abuse the range dominance early game and is pretty decent about keeping the archer at max kiting range. But still its nothing special, stall out and rek.

HashBrownTrials
05-20-2015, 12:01 PM
A "nutshell" lol

Chaos in a nutshell: 1122, 2211,61616161,13131,1663,73737,573733. GG

PUMU
05-20-2015, 12:23 PM
14 miners 1 Medusa 6 bombs 5 jugs 8 deads 4 crawlers.
I'd press for an extra dead before the first jug.
Map size may influence this slightly as well.
Ya didnt include the mouseclicks for upgrade research so... Huehuehue.
With no micro gg is ~
I tried to make it sound as it is a game of micro and map positioning which is what chaos relies on pretty damn heavily as opposed to the other two empires. Aside from trees in a way.

Mystery
05-20-2015, 11:41 PM
S/a:
Same tactic but more defensive at first. Stall until you can overwhelm. If he rushes the two swords he has early on, either decide to leave your eco and try to anim cancel miners as you let your crawlers target the archer on a map with limited kiting space as it is or chip away at the sword as the next one follows an simply micro your way out of it. If he relies heavily on the archer for influence by kiting at max range do not chase, just push away. If he doesn't run immediately chase it down. Also using an occasional feint with full health crawlers often is rewarded by the opponent mismicroing and losing the archer. If you manage to push the enemy back into sitting in base momentarily all the better as your bomb stream follows. If the opponent is in base with a garrisoned Archer and a follow up decide whether it is wiser to back away, or run his base. Based on your army relative to his.

2s/1 m vs 2c/2m on short:
The opponent will not have the same number of melee units. Crawlers que faster as you know and get to center much more quickly.
Play it as you would med map if he doesn't rush. There is little difference there (not to mention the tower should be the target for the order player before rushing into base in an all or nothing)
I assume the main difficulty is with an opponent who goes 2s/1m followed up by 2more stacked que swords for the marginal increase in que speed.
It only slightly affects the tower fight by pushing chaos away initially regardless of crawler micro if played correctly by the order player.
The opponent will have bombs in the face if he runs in after 4. At 3, its iffy. If you can read the target, run back with the targeted miner as soon as possible to drag out the death and trade off more pegs to the army or even manage to save it and continue bomb stream as usual even with them at base. The only way the opponent will be able to run swords before you have 5 crawlers will be if he rushes two in even after being initially hit by crawlers which would be at 3 with a follow up crawler that has only to run minimal distance as opposed to the order players sword running the length of the map to support the previous swords. If he runs in and ignores with this then crawler micro ftw.
CRAWLER TIP:
if the opponent spreads out swords or the swords are spaced enough to where you can quickly run in and peg the sword before the others can reach the hit box take it. It helps.

3 crawlers> 1 sword
3 crawlers<2 but with kitin and micro can still clap a sword returning it to a 3v1 quickly increasing the gap to 4v2 as opposed of staying 1 ahead.
4 crawlers ~ two swords if ya micro and are not met with more swords quickly.
5 crawlers usually is matched against 3 swords and is in favor or the order player but with single targeting with bomb support can be manipulated. At that you shouldn't see crazy numbers of swords if you keep them down and guarantee your kills.

So in conclusion, basically the exact same thing but more micro and caution. Vs all 3 order starts
Macro doesn't really change aside from the castle dead being a maybe at best.

This should answer ya for the general scope of the gameplay. However, if something specifically happens in order micro that you see please let me know exactly what that is. Exactly, verbatim.

Edit: just reread that ya cunfirmed MSS TO SS. to answer that yes. Spartanotaku does that virtually every time against me and it hardly changes anything.
Miscrits macro almost forces the CD but can still be stalled against in the instances he doesn't lag which is quite often as relative to before where it was intolerable. He prefers the s/a start and a/m starts as he can't play it the other way for shit. He prefers to abuse the range dominance early game and is pretty decent about keeping the archer at max kiting range. But still its nothing special, stall out and rek.

Generally I think it is really difficult to get tower control with less than 4 cats as a good order player always group the swords together to attack.
And dealing with miscrits in short is super troublesome

Anyway I may test it out, thanks.

Skeletonxf
05-21-2015, 06:32 AM
A "nutshell" lol

Chaos in a nutshell: 1122, 2211,61616161,13131,1663,73737,573733. GG
xD

And occasionally it goes to stuff like
54673654673695467369546369

HashBrownTrials
05-21-2015, 12:17 PM
14 miners 1 Medusa 6 bombs 5 jugs 8 deads 4 crawlers.
I'd press for an extra dead before the first jug.
Map size may influence this slightly as well.
Ya didnt include the mouseclicks for upgrade research so... Huehuehue.
With no micro gg is ~
I tried to make it sound as it is a game of micro and map positioning which is what chaos relies on pretty damn heavily as opposed to the other two empires. Aside from trees in a way.

Macro > Micro

And for the most part I just pressed random numbers, but kudos to you for actually having to count every unit I said, lol.

PUMU
05-21-2015, 04:51 PM
random numbers = macro. cunfirmd. in most cases micro can overcome a macro superior army

_Ai_
05-21-2015, 11:44 PM
In most cases, nah. In some cases, yes. Macro beats micro anyday, unless the guy can make one unit a god or something.

Dazzy
05-22-2015, 05:43 AM
Such detail.

What it should be is;
learn how to bomb
learn how to macro
learn how to pressure

all comes down to the game awareness of the player.

PUMU
05-23-2015, 01:43 PM
@daz such wyzdm

Dazzy
05-24-2015, 06:37 AM
@daz such wyzdm

I'm not even joking. You can tell how good a chaos player is by how they bomb. And WyzDM's only strong because he has tip top mechanics.

Mystery
05-24-2015, 11:13 AM
learn how to macro <--- I am ok
learn how to pressure <--- Still ok
learn how to bomb <--- meh... idk :(

but I still cannot find more than 3 players able to beat my chaos LOL

HashBrownTrials
05-25-2015, 02:15 PM
learn how to macro <--- I am ok
learn how to pressure <--- Still ok
learn how to bomb <--- meh... idk :(

but I still cannot find more than 3 players able to beat my chaos LOL

Yoohoo!! You found one unless I'm already part of that trio

PUMU
05-25-2015, 10:36 PM
id like to see how i fair myst. been a while

seventom
06-10-2015, 04:45 AM
This should answer ya for the general scope of the gameplay. However, if something specifically happens in order micro that you see please let me know exactly what that is.

PUMU
06-21-2015, 05:46 AM
What are you saying?
Sorry, I'm just not sure what you mean by that

AsePlayer
06-27-2015, 09:45 PM
If I can beat myst chaos, you can wreck myst chaos lol.

PUMU
11-18-2015, 11:40 PM
Hey myst!
Perhaps you can add the wing tech portion of the chaos gameplay into this? I'll edit it into the op