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Thread: wRHG Character Regulations

  1. #61
    Senior Member Urako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devour View Post
    Me and Devi had a small chat about how OP characters work, and the specific line that denotes something as "too powerful to be fun to fight against."

    "Basically, winning or losing a wRHG battle is never from who's character was inherently stronger. It's always the most entertaining and well written story that wins. For example, someone could have a character that makes everyone's heads explode by thinking it, he's going to have boring-ass stories that no one wants to vote for because there's no climactic action. Not to mention people will not want to battle him. He'll quickly realize he needs to switch his character if he wants to battle others, or be ignored forever at the expense of no one but himself."

    But at the same time, I can't just leave it at that because people shouldn't be going all over the wRHG section contributing nothing if they perpetually have a character no one wants to verse. So this does need to be actually addressed.
    Limiting strong powers is a very slippery slope. Sometimes, like Handyman, a really powerful character is still good because the battles with them are climactic and fun to read. Other OP characters are boring because they hypothetically aren't able to take damage, which is obviously boring because who wants to read a wRHG with no back and forth action?
    On the other hand of things, specific weaknesses have never sat well with me. Over time, an wRHG's battle history is going to become losing to the same gimmick over and over again from his opponents. It also, honestly, takes a lot of creativity away when making an honestly flawed character to have to make specific strengths and weaknesses for them.

    In the end, the solution me and Devi agreed on was to replace the "OP" and "weaknesses" with a blanket rule. "Design your character as if they're going to lose half the time, because they will."

    If a character hypothetically cannot lose if they try their hardest and use every dirty trick in the book to survive, then that violates the rule. No more specific gimmicks to kill a wRHG, and no more hypothetically unbeatable characters. But now people have freedom to make characters that appear to be super powerful as long as it's clear that they can be beaten by a equally skilled opponent.

    Edit: If you guys feel like you need on-call mod presence, I'm always on. I just don't browse here regularly. If I'm needed somewhere just report a post and I'll check it out once I can B-)
    To be honest with you, I thought this was how the system already worked.
    I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior. If you're not afraid to admit it then paste this into your signature.

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  2. #62
    Keikaku means plan Devour's Avatar
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    It doesn't specifically say it, so a change might be needed regardless

  3. #63
    Skull Enforcer Azure's Avatar
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    The only reasons these regulations got put up to begin with is because there were cases where people didn't want to change their characters and hence couldn't battle, which was bothersome. It reached a peak with DoomsDruid, but he wasn't the first to cause the problem. Personally, I don't much mind. I prefer leaving things up to either Luna or the majority of the Lounge.

    Spoiler for What I've Obtained:

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devour View Post
    Me and Devi had a small chat about how OP characters work, and the specific line that denotes something as "too powerful to be fun to fight against."

    "Basically, winning or losing a wRHG battle is never from who's character was inherently stronger. It's always the most entertaining and well written story that wins. For example, someone could have a character that makes everyone's heads explode by thinking it, he's going to have boring-ass stories that no one wants to vote for because there's no climactic action. Not to mention people will not want to battle him. He'll quickly realize he needs to switch his character if he wants to battle others, or be ignored forever at the expense of no one but himself."
    You know the thing is, a character with that kind of power could be accepted on very specific circumstances. The problem isn't how OP Doom's character is, it's how unreasonable he can get with regards to submitting those OP powers, introducing his own brand of indecipherable troll logic, and being a disrespectful ass about it when asked to change.

    For example, he claims that his character is blind and cannot fully utilize a sight-related feat but then later down the line claims that she is psychic (even having the gall to say because reasons) thus nullifying her blind weakness. Second example: He claims that she can use alot of broken-ass spells (all of which manipulate meta and time instead of a physical element or something graspable) and the weakness to that is that they have COOLDOWNS. It's like, Doom expects the community to bow down to video game mechanics despite the fact that it makes no physical logical sense in any other context. And that's not even including the mishmash of mary sue powers which have NO explanation, coupled with a mishmash of weaknesses that have NO connection. And people are still thinking twice about letting this guy in?

    EDIT: To clarify, I mean that Doom is trying to appeal to our understanding of videogame logic using terms such as SPAM and COOLDOWN to justify his ridiculous powers, instead of trying to give an actual explanation as to why Alice isn't OP with those spells. I mean by this logic, Alice herself would be counting down in her head when she can use her spells again instead of you know feeling fatigue or some shit. It makes NO sense to anyone in the wrhg universe but to us the writers.

    I'll make this so Azure can understand: Asking Doom to make a competently balanced character is like asking a non-pastry chef to make the "perfect wedding cake". He'll get the basics of a cake down: Foam, Flavor, and Frosting. But then he'll embellish the latter because DUH ARENT WEDDING CAKES SUPPOSE TO BE FANCY; WHO REALLY EATS THOSE ANYWAY and so you end up with this extremely extravagant tower of icing and frosting, it looks GREAT, but it's literally 95% flair and 5% cake. And attempts to argue or change his vision of "the perfect wedding cake" is only met with disdain and trolling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devour View Post
    If a character hypothetically cannot lose if they try their hardest and use every dirty trick in the book to survive, then that violates the rule. No more specific gimmicks to kill a wRHG, and no more hypothetically unbeatable characters. But now people have freedom to make characters that appear to be super powerful as long as it's clear that they can be beaten by a equally skilled opponent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urako View Post
    To be honest with you, I thought this was how the system already worked.
    No offense, but after having read both of Dooms threads, I think the problem is everyone is just too nice. Sure, there are people like Chrome who is actively disagreeing, but his changes and opinions never hit the heavy spots. Nobody wants to be responsible enough to correct doom bluntly because they don't feel it's their responsibility and why should they squander some kid's dreams. And the ones that see his fails a mile away, won't even touch the thread because they KNOW it'll never work. I had to force myself to read Alice because I was asked for an opinion but I wish I never did. I may have lost a few IQ pts doing so...

    It's funny that people cite Handyman's controversial entry alot when it is this behavior that got him in in the first place and I thought everyone was fine with that.

    To be honest, though I agreed that regulations should be in place I don't think these regulations are necessary at all. There should be rules on how to not be a troll like Doom because what's gonna happen is, for every regulation created for Doom's sake, Doom is just going to find some insane workaround "because reasons". It's a stop-gap solution to Doom's retarded methods. It feels like some of the specifics were made just to counter Doom's first character. And really, it's no secret that his character is the reason why the rules were even made in the first place; just like how the Poll Thread became an unfun bag of cocks just because one guy decided to troll that section and literally left when the restrictions went down.

    I couldn't say this^ before because Doom's 2nd character hadn't existed yet. But now that a pattern is emerging I can confidently posit this theory more.

    You wanna know the funny thing about Alice? She's not a totally lost case. The community in that thread can change her. I can change her. But as long as you leave it in Doom's hands, it's never going to change. So I say, if you want to keep regulations fast and clean and simple, then the logical solution is to just outright deny Alice off the bat. Let Doom try and change her once or twice and if he still cannot see it, then just deny deny deny.

    And do something about Doom's perspective. Do not tolerate his behavior. HE's the problem, not his characters.
    Last edited by Hewitt; 11-16-2016 at 08:05 PM.

  5. #65
    Seņor MemeBar Alphaeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hewitt View Post
    Interminably long quote that you can just freakin read for yourself.
    I do agree with Hew overall. (I've said this a bunch, I think...)

    See, here's the thing that I believe is the problem, which Dvor actually hinted at -- character quality is ultimately based upon the creator not the character.

    I'm going to use my first character as an example. Altaer (esp as he originally existed) was an edgy fucker who was ridiculously OP (I mean, he literally had a state where he was completely invincible. That's OP.) One of the main reasons I've been able to become deeply involved in the WL is because 1) I put in the time and effort to write this character is such a manner that even though he was OP, he was at least functional in a story, and 2) After just one battle I LISTENED to the other members and began the process of replacing him (and later changing him).

    So long as these regulations exist, I am perfectly willing to abide by them, and give them my support for the benefit of forum unity.

    HOWEVER, that is not to say that I feel they serve the best overall purpose. I agree that the distinct impression is given that each one of these rules was created merely for the purpose of counter-acting Doom's character, not with a long-term over-reaching mindset.

    Let us look at each rule:

    Rule 1) Well, Zalgo clearly defies this. His Oil has no technical limits on how much of it can exist, and his mental powers (at least in storyline, if not in actual application) can encompass entire hordes of victims at once. Handy, another accepted character, has no technical limits on the generation of hands, which in turn would be on the "massive scale." if you want to boil it down even more, my character Dr. David MacBeth can generate a Reflection (perfect sentient servant replica) of ANY being...meaning I could just duplicate my opponent every battle and be like "fuck you, fight yourself." All of these characters work because the greater WL trusts their creators not to abuse these powers. Not because they abide by these rules. My point here -- OPness is pretty much zero problem in the hands of a good writer, but even a char of moderate power can be OP in the hands of poor writer. Thus, because this is a case-by-case issue to which there are already a number of accepted exceptions, I think it should be reduced to only the "omnis" of powers, since these are really the only ones that would pose HUGE problems.

    2) We don't have many characters that violate this rule...still, look at Leelee by Cassandra. That char has been accepted, but the powers list is composed of totally unrelated things, generally. This is the rule with which I have the least problem, though. My point here, however, is that "unrelated" in certain circumstances can still work and be cute, funny, etc. The problem I think this rule should be adjusted to only refer to overly-numerous powers...aka toolboxing. Essentially, reduce this rule to a KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) principle. Plot-wise relations of powers are up to the free will of the writers, IMO.

    3) Multiple characters. Well, we don't have anyone violating this, but I still have a problem with it. This is a WRITER'S lounge, and thus should be dominated by WRITING. In the end, the wRHG is NOT an RP game with playing rules-- it is a writing competition that occurs via a unifying central concept. The concept needs to be preserved and not ripped to shreds, but still...I believe that this rule should be altered to be dependent upon a logical storyline connection primarily. Secondly, I believe there should be considerations for the different types of duos -- a true duo is where the two characters act as ONE gladiator, and therefore must have their overall strengths and powers considered accordingly. A plot/canon duo (like David and Altaer to use my own chars) act as independent gladiators, but because either one is equally likely to fight due to storyline logic, they are each STAND-ALONE chars that WILL NOT fight together unless previously agreed upon by both parties.

    4) Ability to be defeated is, I think, the most nebulous and subjective of all of the rules and the one with which I have the most problems. The fact of the matter is that certain chars simply CANNOT be defeated under certain circumstances. Let's take an example -- Black Widow and Captain America would be dumfuks to try to fight The Hulk. It's useless, because they don't have the right powers. Now, Thor or Superman or a souped-up Iron Man are viable contenders, because they do have the right powers. That is my issue with this, because there are a large number of Gladiators already in existence that cannot be killed by certain character types. Look at Handy -- sure, he CAN be defeated (maybe?), but that is totally impossible for many chars. And, quite frankly, that's why we like him. Or how about my Dr. MacBeth -- you can kill him any number of ways, but his Reflection ability acts like a "spare body" system and makes timing, speed, and technique critical if you were to ACTUALLY kill him. Thus, for a pure human on all counts except one he is (in just powers alone) surprisingly difficult to "defeat." The fact of the matter is that there is no character that cannot be defeated. If that char can be CREATED by one writer, then they can be DEFEATED by another -- it would just take some literary agility to do so. I mean, hell, a good enough writer could figure out some way to kill a character that is essentially God even, with enough creativity. So, truthfully, I see this "can be defeated" rule as totally useless because of the subjectivity involved.



    See, Hew is right about how this community tends to handle issues. I've OK'd Doom's Alice because I see the huge flaws and just am tired of trying to fix them, and hope that if Dooms has a series of losses to people like Azzy he might recognize them for himself.

    These rules, however, are not the way to do it, IMO. Because they are here by Mod decision, again, I will uphold them and respect them. But I will continue to disagree with them.
    Last edited by Alphaeus; 11-18-2016 at 08:27 AM.
    My wRHG Canon: The Remarkable Life of Altaer
    "oh fuck yeah, taco, you've been naughty" ~ Vorpal
    "" ~ Index
    Spoiler for More stuff:

  6. #66
    Senior Member Urako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alphaeus View Post
    If that char can be CREATED by one writer, then they can be DEFEATED by another -- it would just take some literary agility to do so. I mean, hell, a good enough writer could figure out some way to kill a character that is essentially God even, with enough creativity. So, truthfully, I see this "can be defeated" rule as totally useless because of the subjectivity involved.
    Ever since I've heard of omnipotent gladiators' i've been trying to find ways to kill them. So far the only way I can think of is a surprise attack where they don't have time to react but I might come up with more ideas. Actually, this is part of the reason why i'm willing to face tougher opponents. Character power doesn't matter too much (so long as its fun to write about though almost all OP gladiators are definitely NOT). What matters is the writer.

    That said, the last rule I happen to agree with (with exceptions such as Handy). Do you really want a character who loses the same way every battle?
    Last edited by Urako; 11-18-2016 at 09:17 AM.
    I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior. If you're not afraid to admit it then paste this into your signature.

    I am a self-proclaimed wRHG fight instigator.

    Here is my wRHG character Dozer!

  7. #67
    Seņor MemeBar Alphaeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urako View Post
    Ever since I've heard of omnipotent gladiators' i've been trying to find ways to kill them. So far the only way I can think of is a surprise attack where they don't have time to react but I might come up with more ideas. Actually, this is part of the reason why i'm willing to face tougher opponents. Character power doesn't matter too much (so long as its fun to write about though almost all OP gladiators are definitely NOT). What matters is the writer.

    That said, the last rule I happen to agree with (with exceptions such as Handy). Do you really want a character who loses the same way every battle?
    The general purpose of my critiques here is to make the point that these Regs need refinement. On one hand, no, I do not want a char that looses the same way every battle. On the other, if that char is done super well like Handy, then sure, that's fine.

    We've been discussing this in the chat, also, and have been making developments on the overall situation of the WL. Not sure if they will ever be implemented, but...
    My wRHG Canon: The Remarkable Life of Altaer
    "oh fuck yeah, taco, you've been naughty" ~ Vorpal
    "" ~ Index
    Spoiler for More stuff:

  8. #68
    Secret Psychopath Crank's Avatar
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    Heh, just once could you make a post without going 'Take me for instance, I'm amazing'? My only issue remains with the NPC involvement, but that whole double character thing that you've been ranting about reeeeeally isn't that big of a deal. I came to Stickpage with August and John, but had to lose Aug because I had one last battle pending. So I know the feeling.

    Having said that, in four years, this hasn't effected anything. Not for me, or anyone else. You can switch characters, which is fine, and actually locking in is good for developing characters, rather than bouncing around constantly. To be honest, the situation you're in is entirely your fault. You make a team with infinate money and then just stick Gladdie A next to Gladdie B. It's kinda on your head to justifiy why blatently superior Alt doesn't just fix all of the Doc's problems.

    Plus, the rules aren't aimed at the old geezers such as you and me. Average age in the Writers Lounge is what, 15, 16? But we gotta follow the rules anyway. Not that tall an order, especially when the kids are handling it just fine

  9. #69
    Skull Enforcer Azure's Avatar
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    Made a very slight edit.

    Spoiler for What I've Obtained:

  10. #70
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    I have one question
    How do you create a character

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