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Thread: OVO Castle: MMS Early Spear Strategy (1.8k-2k rating)

  1. #41
    I prefer the air Raptor's Avatar
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    I'm not really strict with off-topic posts as long as they don't derail the thread too much. Don't want to police conversations.

    Alternate isn't breaking any rules, he's just being an irrelevant asshole lol. Big difference.
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  2. #42
    A Stick Empires Player AsePlayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raptor View Post
    I'm not really strict with off-topic posts as long as they don't derail the thread too much. Don't want to police conversations.

    Alternate isn't breaking any rules, he's just being an irrelevant asshole lol. Big difference.
    Oh well, was worth a shot.
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  3. #43
    Void Skeletonxf's Avatar
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    Results, games in reverse chronological order. I lost all but one though a lot of the loses happened in the following spearcher game rather than the phases where these two strategies were most relevant.

    http://www.stickempires.com/play?rep...8&version=2.29 - my counter did not really work well after my first spear dive was too soft and then didn't achieve anything but ensuring my units were more hurt than Josephs'

    http://www.stickempires.com/play?rep...5&version=2.29 - loss of control once mage showed up, less ideal start dives, I still had decent control of mid for most of game even with poor macro decisions the till mage showed up

    http://www.stickempires.com/play?rep...4&version=2.29 - poor play from me, bad macro

    http://www.stickempires.com/play?rep...8&version=2.29 - trivial win for me by MA start, Joseph did mess up a bit

    http://www.stickempires.com/play?rep...7&version=2.29 - We had same eco, I had center and same army at start of mid game before I lost control, I was briefly tied/winning but my macro let me down again

    http://www.stickempires.com/play?rep...4&version=2.29 - Initial start good, loss of control, triple diving was less effective than I hoped for

    http://www.stickempires.com/play?rep...7&version=2.29 - I seriously messed up the dives, loss of control early in

    VERDICT

    Joseph's strategy has a time window in between 1:45 and 2:00 (just before the spear comes out) where a powerful dive can hit hard and it is possible to dive with 2 archers and other units at this point, but you have to seriously commit to doing it. If you dive 20 seconds later you'll be fighting a spear and an archer and a sword, with similar units and a weaker eco and probably lose.

    Triple diving doesn't work at high ping because dives just aren't as effective and are higher risk. At lower ping this method is still probably less than ideal.

    Going heavy eco yourself with an archer to hold mid for free till 2:20 lets you match Joseph in pop and hold center. I repeatedly lost the following spearcher meric battles when going for this but I am fairly confident that if the two players were more or less equal then opting for this method would give a slight advantage and effectively be a soft counter. Admittedly it's very soft but that's still more of an advantage than two identical SAS starts.

    Basically to counter you have to either commit to a serious dive and kill as many miners as possible just before 2:00 or commit to your economy and take advantage of the center gold to swing the macro game in your favour. Opting for a middle way means your dives don't hit hard enough and you lose in eco and consequently are left with few ways to win in the ensuing macro game.

    Unsurprisingly then we're left with SAS still being a more robust strat once the skill level is high enough, though not by a lot.
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  4. #44
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    I agree with skele. What I feel is

    -the idea of triple diving sucks even with perfect ping, because you're diving with 1 archer 1 sword. Even if you sacrifice the sword, you can't kill any miners as I can pull back any already weakened miners, and it takes 3 CA hits + 1 sword swipe to kill the sword, with my sword tanking the archer hits so I don't lose anything. If you dive and get your sword out in time, you can only get 2 archer hits on my sword, so minimal damage. 2 archer diving is much better.

    -if you rush for a spear yourself, it turns into a game where both players rush double spears. Your initial spear is faster and can kill 1/2 miners, but i can hold with CA, and go for miner trades with yours. I have the advantage with CA so I have a higher chance of winning.

    -the only good counter is archer after 4th miner, then attack between 1:30 to 2:00 with 2 archer 1 sword to snipe weakened miners. When spear comes out, have 3 archer 2 sword to block it, then outmacro the opponent by holding centre tower eco advantage

    -even if the counter is applied, the advantage they get is not huge. Because this map is small, you can't use the tower eco advantage to churn out more miners and snowball into a heavy eco lead. So the eco lead translates into 2-3 more archers/1 more spear which is not much. The CA provides so much coverage, that even if you are up one spear, by attacking, you can't achieve much as you need to tank CA hits. If you go for tower spawn, you can't push much into CA territory, and you will have a much later mage which is gg on this map. So this advantage is not huge, and can allow me to still win if I have the better macro (as can be seen in the games). Vs a equally skilled player tho, I will have a lower chance of winning than by going SAS (50-50 chance)

    -My conclusion is that vs higher skilled players above 2k rating, MMS can be countered and give them the advantage to win. Thus SAS is better because the chances are now 50-50, or close to there. However vs lower rating players, you can use MMS to avoid the risky SAS build, and go into mid game where your better macro will win you the game. For example, if I play skele and we both go SAS, my win/loss rate can be 50-50, but if I go MMS, my win loss will be extremely high cos my macro is better (he is very rusty XD). So when ranking in ladder, I feel this strategy is better against weaker players than SAS. I would like to see any arguments against this point

    TL;DR: MMS is better against weaker players as you can out macro them, compared to SAS which heavily depends on luck and ping. Thus when climbing ladder, use this to secure wins on castle vs weaker players
    Last edited by Josephong; 03-04-2017 at 09:04 PM.

  5. #45
    Okay, let me rephrase, it is good IN THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME but NOT GOOD for defending terrible for defending giants and speartons so far.

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