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Thread: [Open Discussion] A centralised canon for the wRHG?

  1. #11
    Keikaku means plan Devour's Avatar
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    Like I said in Discord:

    "I still don't see why a centralized canon matters a lot lmao. Maybe I'm not "with it" enough in the wrhg scene to get it.

    Is it really important enough that the entire WLounge has to go along with everyone's details of the city? It seems much easier to discuss small details like individual buildings and places with like, the people in your clan. Without making everyone else have to read it and agree with it and have it in their own stories or whatever.
    I could understand if all the major (and also left vague) details were clarified here, but people don't write to fit their own inspiration into someone else's mold. They want to do what they're excited about and/or what they have in their head. I want to make sure something like this doesn't have the opposite effect and strangle new activity, and that people don't just want the satisfaction of feeling like the world in their head is the "real world," and that it's being used by other people.

    A centralized canon doesn't seem like the most important thing in the world when you can just discuss things with your immediate partners instead. But like I said I dont even do wRHG lol"

  2. #12
    Senior Member Chromium7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alphaeus View Post
    So, I'm tired and drugged up so I'll post more another day. For now, let me say I really, REALLY support the idea of a unified canon.
    I think the phrase you're looking for here is unifiable, or one that can centralize and decentralize as needed in an intuitive, reconcilable way. A fully centralized and unified canon is not something that is possible or wanted, and Vern even works off this assumption in the OP. But to really hammer in the consensus against a fully unified canon, here's what Cassandra's said on the matter;

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    The only way I see all this working out is if we all lived in the same house, and discussed all our plans for our wRHGs together daily. It would be like a mega-writer's-collaboration!
    That in the back of you're mind, I want to step in to say that the use of the word "this" in Cassandra's post is something of a misappropriation, as even on the sole basis of Vern's thoughts on the matter -- the original poster, we can say that any chance of a singular wRHG canon would be non-existent, unless we were to count Vern's own canon for wRHG as separate from whatever we to proclaim the "unified" canon. I too would be excluded from such a concept, lest I were to name my own imagining of events as the sole definitive one, from which all else were to be excluded. So in short, a fully centralized/unified canon is not possible, and as such not a possibility to be considered or rejected, for it is an inherent reject of a concept.

    But what I can speak to is partial centralization. The Sanctuary Collab, which we may or may not still get written, exists within a partially centralized frame of existence -- where my canon, devi's canon, cassandra's canon, kamiroo's canon -- all combine into one, with our characters in the same room as each other, even if we ourselves aren't. To keep up, we as writers would and will have to be on the same page and same level when deciding the fate of our characters within the framework of centralization. This means discussion, understanding, and collaboration -- which as Cass points out, would be a hell of a lot easier if we lived in the same room. So let's say, for the sake of example, the Sanctuary collab is released successfully as "planned," and following it, Devi is no longer around to maintain his character's story. If we want to still have collabs with his character in it, we're gonna need a new plan -- or that centralization framework, or shared canon, is going to end as we know it -- as this example would exist on the presumption that Light would cease to exist the moment Devi ceases to write the character.

    But let's say someone took on the character. I've done it with Rhami and Astor, already -- with some input from acutelatios after the collab we did. Rhami and Astor became my character's roommates, and the framework itself didn't immediately change, and I suppose has yet to. The only thing that did change was my workload. Following this, Shadowmirror I believe left, so I wound up writing Ergos for a bit. It wasn't too bad, I had fun with it, we divied up the workload for the collab I did with him and his clan, and it could have gone worse. But the more characters you accrue, and canons you centralize, the more canon elements you have to balance. Should a writer essentially hand you a character for a time and walk off, that becomes harder and harder to balance. This, again, is why a fully unified wRHG canon is a fool's errand -- because the second anybody logs off, whoever's left online has to keep the framework together while they're away.

    That leads us into decentralization. Let's say I were writing for the Sanctuary collab, which I am, were asked to write for both Dante and Cassandra which I am, Rhami and Astor scheduled to make an appearance without their writer, which they aren't, and I were to wake up one day, refusing to write this story with all of these characters in it. This would be the beginnings of decentralization, which as I've detailed in a separate post and Vern alluded to in a previous post, if handled incorrectly, can very easily devolve into a shitshow. So what would I call a shitshow?

    An example of a shitshow would be if I went with the story as it was, and if I continued to entertain the notion that Dante's canon intersects with Alph's canon, Kamiroo Wolf's canon, Cassandra's canon, and so on -- and what I did was I ended it with Dante killing himself and everyone he's ever known, without consulting any of my collaborators on the matter. That canon, in its centralized state, would be fucked.

    But let's say that we'd planned for such a thing. We all do on some level. We'll say Sanctuary exists in its own little alternate universe, whether we acknowledge it within the context of the story or not. In that case, we can tell ourselves that Dante didn't kill our character and himself -- he simply walked out of our lives one day, or... it was all a dream, or this, that or what-have you. We can steer clear of the shitshow by decentralizing our canon away from... whichever one it is where so-and-so did so-and-so. But if we're going to do something like that -- if we're going to have something like that happen -- we want it to make sense.

    We as writers want our own personal canon to be a canon that can unite with others' to tell the stories we want to tell, and break away from the ones we don't and/or can't.

    We could use more ways of doing so, and more writers crafty enough to employ them in ways that work for both them and their audiences.

    That's just me though.

  3. #13
    Seņor MemeBar Alphaeus's Avatar
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    Well, a term I want to toss in here is the White Box concept. Has a ton of applications that are irrelevant, but it it's common usage it means a structure that has definitions (top, bottom, left, right, walls, floors, ceiling, boundaries) but can adapt to accommodate any details.

    Originally from genetics, the idea says that a bear is a bear. A grizzly bear that lives on the arctic coast can over thousands of years become a polar bear due to the pressures of the environment, etc etc (this is, btw, the origin of polar bears genetically IRL). A human is a human. Quecha (Incans) have an extra liter of blood and massive lungs, while Inuit have special fat deposits and thick skin, while Polynesians can see better underwater than any other race. We all came from the same genetic background and have the same basic code, but the "White Box" aspect comes into play and lets us adapt to our environments.

    The same can be applied to this unification. When I say unification, I mean that certain points are solidified. These points form the "walls" of the White Box. They are reference points that exist and cannot be "un-existed," thereby stabilizing storyline continuity and character development for mutual benefit of all writers involved.

    By definition, however, no matter how much we describe the Walls -- the Reference points -- the fact is that this is still a giant big empty box. You can fill the central void however you like. You can smear shit on the walls if it pleases you. Do whatever the fuck you want within those indestructible walls. But we ALL depend on the structure provided by those walls, and their existence prevents people from blowing apart our canon like some little piggy's house of straw with a single story.

    To Crank's point, yes, of course we'll have to say "that's not how it works." Because this is a collaborative writing community -- even though most works are independently produced, they inherently revolved around the intersecting of two canons. The reason most of us can/have/will write together is because we adhere to the unspoken anyway to some extent.

    For example, we define that Angels and Demons exist. Fine. You can have them function in a million different roles because we aren't going to define that. We'll just establish that they DO exist...because otherwise shit gets awkward when Cruel comes back and has a half angel/half demon char now and one of my other clan members decides that in their canon there are no Supernatural beings.

    The idea of this thread, and what Vern is trying to do (and I tried once before when Crank/Azure noped it, and then someone else tried once before that and Hew/Crank noped it) follows the idea of a coloring book. You can fill those pages with whatever fucking colors you want. You can choose to color whatever fucking page you want. But we're going to lay down the lines. The pattern. The FRAMEWORK upon which these stories and canons can build. That way we don't have people scribbling all over the page like a spasmatic retard and saying the lines aren't there, because they are and will be.
    My wRHG Char: The Fixer
    "oh fuck yeah, taco, you've been naughty" ~ Vorpal
    "" ~ Index


    ~Arch

    ~^^ENTER THE TUNNEL^^~

  4. #14
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    I'm liking all the input so far, people. Don't be afraid to react to others' comments, too. It's an open discussion after all : P.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrome
    A bunch of text
    I wish you were this coherent when I'm having an argument with you, Chrome. But yes, if it wasn't already apparent, there's no point in saying that a truly unified canon is impossible because it isn't even being considered. You make some good points about writers leaving the site too, and the matter of their characters. I'm in favour of people picking up others' storylines if the owner of the characters decide to fuck off to wherever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alph
    The idea of this thread, and what Vern is trying to do follows the idea of a coloring book.
    Eh, the point of this thread is to discuss the idea of a centralised canon, nothing more. I myself am in favour of a colouring book method but as I said I kinda just wanna hear people's thoughts on a centralised canon in general.

    Also all the newer folk are invited to talk too. Kinda hoped I'd be hearing from more peeps by now but I understand if y'all are busy.

  5. #15
    Member Oster's Avatar
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    I like the concept Alpheus stated above. I believe that a centralized canon would be near impossible to pull off in this setting or at least one that would work for long, for the same reasons others have stated above. So basically I can easily get behind the Whiteroom concept. I may be a fanboy for stating this but the conept sounds kinda how the Touhou fandom functions. Yes, there are defined points about the world of Touhou, and even sometimes even those are played with, and that stays true across a majority if not all of the fan derivatives that spawn. Yet those points do not fully define a certain object and much is left to each person's imagination. It may sound like a weak comparison but that's what I imagined when I was reading Aplh's post.

    Though as to how it's going to work, though that's a different beast altogether but that is likely for a different thread, I do have ideas but I'm not sure if they're appropriate to post here. Anyway, that's my two cents.

  6. #16
    The Stickpage Ghost PitchEnder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrome
    a bunch of text
    I wish you were this coherent when I'm having an argument with you, Chrome.
    Vern, you know you can add spoilers to quotes, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitch
    Spoiler for Pitch Jr:

    WRHG: Fell

    Availability:
    Full

    Character will be changed after I'm finished with my next two battles.

    I'm a skeleton IRL.


    Spoiler for Gif Of My Mascot:

    Spoiler for Personal Stuff:


  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by PitchEnder
    Spoiler for :
    kek

  8. #18
    The Stickpage Ghost PitchEnder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vern View Post
    Spoiler for :
    kekx2
    Last edited by PitchEnder; 11-14-2017 at 11:33 AM.

    WRHG: Fell

    Availability:
    Full

    Character will be changed after I'm finished with my next two battles.

    I'm a skeleton IRL.


    Spoiler for Gif Of My Mascot:

    Spoiler for Personal Stuff:


  9. #19
    Secret Psychopath Crank's Avatar
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    I've already stated and stand by my opinion (you're welcome to do the same with yours), but with the revamp coming up, it wouldn't hurt to get see where people mindsets are. Not a poll, because I don't want eight of them, but we can have a list of the widely used canon concepts as recommendations. Like, you're free to break the mold, but your puzzle piece will fit into other people's stories if your world works a certain way. So, what are the rules in your world?

    Crank:

    Magic:
    Average strength: Weak
    Rarity: Rare
    Public opinion: Unsettling

    City:
    Type: Metropolis just inland with surrounding forests.
    Crime: Heavy
    Justice: Mostly vigilante

    RHG:
    Wealth: Extremely rich
    Status: Celebrity
    Dangers: People can die in battle
    Benefits: Supreme heath care, fame, wealth
    Company status: Huge influence; Largely in control of the city; Protects own from penalties

  10. #20
    ლ(ಠᨎಠლ) IgnusBurns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crank View Post
    Spoiler for Crank's World:
    I like the way Crank took it on how he described his world here, just a short profile like text detailing important facts about his World's Magic, City, and the RHG. If anything, I think this little formula, with some room for flex, could be a useful resource if we made some type of accumulation of as many other people's World profiles as possible, if they'd like to record it. Anyone who would want to reference what a person's world is like could just pop open the spoiler that their world profile is kept in, and BOOM!

    Ah, wishful thinking though, just an idea. And Crank, if I may...

    IgnusBurns:

    Magic:
    Average strength: Medium
    Rarity: Not Uncommon
    Public opinion: Cautious, but not Terrified

    City:
    Type: Coastal City with Forests to the East
    Crime: Think Gotham, but worse
    Justice: Lots of Police Activity, but Vigilante as Well

    RHG:
    Wealth: Like a bunch of Bruce Waynes
    Status: Well, but infamously, known
    Dangers: People die, get kidnapped, drugged, blackmailed, you name it!
    Benefits: With proper ranking; Prestige, Protection, Wealth, Fame
    Company status: Bad Rumors, but respected all the same; Independently run, owned, and employed, high level of security around high ranking officials and gladiators.

    I like his idea here, a compilation of a bunch of these types of profiles for the person's world would be really useful, from my opinion at least.
    Spoiler for Stuff You Probably Don't Care About:

    Spoiler for Supports:
    Am I Available For Battle? Nope...

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