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Thread: ELEMENTALS NEED A STRUCTURE!

  1. #41
    Senior Member Mystery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spino View Post
    I still have trouble with higher ranked play on short maps, but have greatly improved on medium-long maps vs them.

    Chaos has its perks and once you get it down, you got it down...
    the strength of chaos is that it is balanced and do not suffer from poison.

    It can create panic in the very beginning when the early micro is good enough, and pressure opponent very hard with a fast eco.
    The early units are cheap and disposable, the mid game units are very good for pressure, especially deads shuts order turtle, and wings rekts elemental very hard.
    That is why in the past when those top chaos players were still active, like khan and CuriousTurtle, I always feel it EXTREMELY HARD to play them.

    For order and elemental, they both have obvious weaknesses in both early game and late game. Especially elemental, which has not yet been balanced and still have many holes of weaknesses to exploit.
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  2. #42
    Gone MasterKaito's Avatar
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    CT still plays on his alts :P

  3. #43
    I'm your BreakFast HashBrownTrials's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendofKaito View Post
    CT still plays on his alts :P
    I like never see him, ever..
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    And don't you dare grief. I will find you, hunt you down and kill you
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  4. #44
    Friendliest SP Member PUMU's Avatar
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    ninjas can one shot. if they manage to avoid the possesion and also manage to catch up the v and even if they do teleporting as an easily accesible feature combined with the fact that even if the shadow retreats the teleport spell can allow for an easy catchup and take and tank. killing the shadow and whatever you use the shadow against. combined with the fact that one would have to micro their shadows as to get close to the v or multiple v's in the case of a v mass one can easily tank with (the clones, stolen shadowrath, stolen albow) with the support of other v's and ranged units supporting as well as the case of water support one can effectively avoid harassment if they dont allow the order player to camp at base.
    which mystery stated IF THEY ARE ALLOWED TO SETUP which in any empire allowing the opponent to go about building as they please deserves a stern wag of the finger.

    @Hash
    luigistall3 lol

    @Mysterybat's chaos post:
    tell em how it is.
    For myself and i think mystery will agree with me
    ele has a really tough time vs any chaos player that knows what they are doing. map size tends to affect gameplay a lot more than micro or macro that either player really does.
    as ele has no direct way of dealing with bombs early game chaos can effectively cripple an elemental players eco if they dont do something quickly to counter the bomb rush. i tend to go for hustle as soon as possible vs chaos simply to spite bombs. I try to rush my eco out to second row as chaos wont have a plethera of ranged units out until round about 1:45-2 mins in. which is start to make fires to attempt to push outward into the center of map if i dont already have it.
    the main thing i see in the relationship between wings and ele is that the wing range allows for them to kite ele units at a distance at which ele ranged units themselves can be relatively close to the wings just not close enough. for me i could be directly underneath a wing and only be able to get 2 foward kites at the most which the arcing projectile begins to not land as it should. airs dont really have a tanky unit to defend themselves as attempting to micro one unit that uses melee (which due to the health nerf really is a hit-and-run support caster instead of an effective anti-air unit as was its main purpose) and having a ranged unit that cannot kite at all really is not effective. not to mention the que time that airs have.

    i dont really play chaos all that much but i find it to require much more micro than the other two empires. not sure if thats just me but for now this is how i feel about that
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    I'll teach you how to double clutch~
    You! You're like one of those jokes where it's all like "Katniss, bring the ring to mordor or the enterprise will win", showing a picture of Dumbledore, and it says "~Gandalf"

  5. #45
    Senior Member Mystery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUMU View Post
    ninjas can one shot. if they manage to avoid the possesion and also manage to catch up the v and even if they do teleporting as an easily accesible feature combined with the fact that even if the shadow retreats the teleport spell can allow for an easy catchup and take and tank. killing the shadow and whatever you use the shadow against. combined with the fact that one would have to micro their shadows as to get close to the v or multiple v's in the case of a v mass one can easily tank with (the clones, stolen shadowrath, stolen albow) with the support of other v's and ranged units supporting as well as the case of water support one can effectively avoid harassment if they dont allow the order player to camp at base.
    which mystery stated IF THEY ARE ALLOWED TO SETUP which in any empire allowing the opponent to go about building as they please deserves a stern wag of the finger.

    @Hash
    luigistall3 lol

    @Mysterybat's chaos post:
    tell em how it is.
    For myself and i think mystery will agree with me
    ele has a really tough time vs any chaos player that knows what they are doing. map size tends to affect gameplay a lot more than micro or macro that either player really does.
    as ele has no direct way of dealing with bombs early game chaos can effectively cripple an elemental players eco if they dont do something quickly to counter the bomb rush. i tend to go for hustle as soon as possible vs chaos simply to spite bombs. I try to rush my eco out to second row as chaos wont have a plethera of ranged units out until round about 1:45-2 mins in. which is start to make fires to attempt to push outward into the center of map if i dont already have it.
    the main thing i see in the relationship between wings and ele is that the wing range allows for them to kite ele units at a distance at which ele ranged units themselves can be relatively close to the wings just not close enough. for me i could be directly underneath a wing and only be able to get 2 foward kites at the most which the arcing projectile begins to not land as it should. airs dont really have a tanky unit to defend themselves as attempting to micro one unit that uses melee (which due to the health nerf really is a hit-and-run support caster instead of an effective anti-air unit as was its main purpose) and having a ranged unit that cannot kite at all really is not effective. not to mention the que time that airs have.

    i dont really play chaos all that much but i find it to require much more micro than the other two empires. not sure if thats just me but for now this is how i feel about that
    In my mind , a chaos player who knows how to early micro crawlers and bombers, even he is 1.8k or something, is enough to beat a 2.3k+ elemental player
    The reason is that most elemental players nowadays only know how to EvO, but suck in EvC.

    After I read pumu's post, this is one of the best post I have seen in this month, about "tend to go for hustle as soon as possible vs chaos simply to spite bombs" . I believe most players won't do this , or they don't even realize they have to do this.

    For EvC, up till now I still cannot say which build can really counter chaos well. Because every build in my mind has some weaknesses.
    Two months ago I created two elemental builds for myself, which worked pretty well against chaos players, but still most testings are needed.

    In the side of chaos players, 3 Medusa + 1 marrowkai + X wings are unbeatable in CvE.

    As an elemental player, counter chaos is a challenge starting from the very first second to the end,both macro and micro are big challenges.
    Macro wise, the early start, the med game units , have many choices, which are all risky against chaos. Micro wise, not only to protect miners against early bomber rush, but also to chase wing mass with cycloid, deal with medusa poison pool with water, not to allow marrowkai reap V.
    All are TOUGH JOBS, what I mean tough is really really tough.

    One chaos player, who is the very few one I think is at a satisfactory level, is champ344, who is 2.2k chaos player and play CvE well.
    If any elemental player can win against him, I think it is a great success already.

    Up till now in terms of EvC, so far only two starts are viable.
    One is 3 earth start, give you a nice eco in the beginning, but then you are opened to all chaos bomber and crawler pressure in the first two minutes. You cannot send your earths to the centre because crawlers can kill all of them with animation cancel. Castle air is a stupid approach because it is single target and cannot stop multiple bombers.

    One is fire start, which is quite viable in short map and stop all bomber pressure. But in med map, it gives a shitty eco, and even you hold the centre, chaos players have an upper hand in eco and able to get a wing much earlier. The worst thing is, fire is 450 gold, 2 crawlers + 3 bombers = 425 gold, which are enough to kill one fire instantly. Once your first fire die, you lose. So it is extremely risky and the first fire is quite useless once the first wing comes out.

    But even though EvC is very difficult, I still don't suggest any further patches for elemental units. It will just make the situation worse without fully comprehend the game run. Only two top priorities for elemental patch are Tower Spawn 2 and Blind Gate.

    And finally, talking about chaos, itself is a bit op in top level(2.4k+), no going to repeat this anymore. Its macro is easy, and med game unit micros are also easy comparing with other two empires. The only difficult part is the early game micro, once a player can handle it, reaching 2.3k+ with chaos is not difficult at all.
    Last edited by Mystery; 01-26-2015 at 10:46 AM.
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  6. #46
    Void Skeletonxf's Avatar
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    What about change airs to rapid speed low damage auto attacks? Damage won't be too different but CAir won't be as stupid and Airs will actually work as anti bomber.
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  7. #47
    Friendliest SP Member PUMU's Avatar
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    will all the bolts target a unit even after it dies?
    lets say 11 airs. 1 archer. 11 bolts fired.
    this guy standing over my shoulder says hi btw guys
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    were gunna be great partners in crime heh heh heh
    Quote Originally Posted by RedSavage View Post
    I'll teach you how to double clutch~
    You! You're like one of those jokes where it's all like "Katniss, bring the ring to mordor or the enterprise will win", showing a picture of Dumbledore, and it says "~Gandalf"

  8. #48
    doing my rubesty _Ai_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUMU View Post
    will all the bolts target a unit even after it dies?
    lets say 11 airs. 1 archer. 11 bolts fired.
    this guy standing over my shoulder says hi btw guys
    Yeah. The same thing happens with other ranged units. For proof go play AI and spam archers.
    Spoiler for kankanmikan:



  9. #49
    Friendliest SP Member PUMU's Avatar
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    ive seen it. for archers vs archers if 10 arrows are fired a good 3 hit the ground beyond.
    for fires i watched a miner absorb 12 fireballs from fires.
    i think maybe this could be fixed.
    half of the time the damage from fireballs dont register.
    the damage does not stack at all.
    maybe 5 actually hit unarmoured units the rest do nothing.
    Pumu's Infernoes
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    Quote Originally Posted by hey look a train! View Post
    were gunna be great partners in crime heh heh heh
    Quote Originally Posted by RedSavage View Post
    I'll teach you how to double clutch~
    You! You're like one of those jokes where it's all like "Katniss, bring the ring to mordor or the enterprise will win", showing a picture of Dumbledore, and it says "~Gandalf"

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