Quote from ISyncErrorI

SAS doesn't depend on luck. It depends on skill. And like Ase said, anyone could easily dodge your CA and screw your miners.

I'd say its more luck based than skill based due to the dodgy hitboxing and the relatively high frequency of g not working, archer for some reason not raising bow, sword stabbing as oppose to swiping etc etc

Quote from Josephong

@skeleton okay then whats your code? And which timezone are you in? :)

UTC+0

I'm Skeletonwarlord and my code is 527

Quote from Josephong

@skeleton okay then whats your code? And which timezone are you in? :)

@ase that requires a super high level of micro rarely rarely found in that rating range. And also ping needs to be low too. Also wen you mean stack archers, how many are you talking about? I doubt that they can stack archers and rush a spear out before i can, i'll probably attack them with my spear + sword when they are still building the spear. If they try to rush with spears and do the same thing as me, i have the benefit of the ca. When you say most people. what rating range are you referring to?

They can kite your spearton a ton and then use miners to murder that spear

@gaismail
Not everyone has the micro ability to do it. Esp not in the sub 2k ratings. And even if they do, there is ping to consider. With zero ping vs ai, it can work, but in non ideal conditions, you can be screwed over very easily. One wrong move/a bit of lag and you get hit, and the sword can wrestle away tower possession. Castle archer kiting is not a reliable strat.

@zomar
So true man. Many times i had enemy arrows fly through/just above or below my sword as im running away and kill my archer lol

@ase
They can't really kite your spearton a ton as the map is super short and they probably have only around 2 archers. The damage done is quite low such that the spearton can rush in, kill swords/miners and run back out alive. Futhermore you have archers covering your retreat, which makes it harder to forward kite you as you escape. This isn't the 3 long maps where spearton can't attack when there's 3 archers.
Also the spear is supported by a sword, meaning that enemy miners/swords can be killed much more easily. If i see the miner swarm coming i can run in circles and wait for my archers to arrive lol. Probably can still pick a miner off.

Well the kiting won't do much damage if they have 2-3 archers. And having the miners try to fight stops them from mining. The spearton can avoid damage from the miners anyways.

This is a pretty neat strategy, it isn't the same old sword archer.

Josephong, what's your code? And if you don't mind, I'd like to see the results of you vs skeleton.

Quote from Josephong

@gaismail
Not everyone has the micro ability to do it. Esp not in the sub 2k ratings. And even if they do, there is ping to consider. With zero ping vs ai, it can work, but in non ideal conditions, you can be screwed over very easily. One wrong move/a bit of lag and you get hit, and the sword can wrestle away tower possession. Castle archer kiting is not a reliable strat.

Like I said before Jospehong, it depends on skill. Yes, not many could do it. But some have the abilty to do it because of skill. And with AI, 40% chance it won't work because that's when the bow doesn't give a fuck.

Quote from ISyncErrorI

Like I said before Jospehong, it depends on skill. Yes, not many could do it. But some have the abilty to do it because of skill. And with AI, 40% chance it won't work because that's when the bow doesn't give a fuck.

My point is that while it can be done, it is rarely seen due to non ideal ping and very very few players these days having that sort of micro. My strat isn't ineffective just because of the existence of castle archer kiting. For 4 sword start on castle, you can say it doesn't work because of g kiting being easy to do and commonly seen even in 1.6k ranks. But you can't really say MMS doesn't work at sub 2k rating because of castle archer kiting.

I feel its a fun strat to use for those who are sick and tired of SAS battles on castle. And it takes it to mid game which is fun to play on castle imo cos its fast paced and has good macro-micro balance unlike on the other maps

Myst has consistently used this strat to success even vs 2.4k players. You can argue that it is perhaps of his skill level, but i also feel that it's because its a strat where there are no major flaws (unlike 4 sword start/spear start). Even if they apply the correct counter (sword + archer spam to deny first spear), you are only put at a small disadvantage, not a major one, you can still win if you have decent macro.

What I like is that the spear + sword at start can kill units easily, and when they counter attack right after with spear + 2 archer, your almost dead spear + 2 archer + CA + hustle can hold it off, giving you momentum to outmacro them with merics and higher archer count. The CA works wonders as they can't attack you unless with overwhelming force. CA is kind of a must get upgrade on this map as it does so much.

Quote from Josephong

Would like to add that, if they go AM instead of Sas, you can go MMSASA to contest for Tower. It sometimes fucks with people who think I'm going CA and won't have the units to defend. Or you can go MMSM-CA which gives more eco and a faster spear, works well vs AMM

AMM gives tower and pressure whilst having eco as well tho.
You can and will get kited to death. If the archer presses in on you how are you going to maintain your miners getting chipped away? You gotta pull them back, withering your eco and benefiting the guy who started with a more agro start.

@gaismail
Sometimes players who have played me before expect a CA start, so they go AM followed by eco spam. But that's not really the main point anyways cos I'm sidestepping by explaining how I can fuck people up who try to build a counter to my strategy lol.
Also, you mention that "So no matter what you do, there's always gonna be ... CA dodging." I think I've already established the point that CA dodging isn't really a good counter to my strategy. If it were seen commonly and used effectively, then my strategy would be not useful. But that's not the case. Also, I have a sword that can run alongside and attack the archer as she kites. If they want to do damage, they have to take damage. And if they take too much damage, I can wrestle back tower control.

@ase
I assume you mean kited to death, you're talking about the spearton being kited by archers. Like I said, 2 archers isn;t going to do much in a short map, spearton can get out alive with no problems unless you get too greedy. With AMM, if the archer presses in, i have more than enough time to get CA without delaying eco as the sword can tank damage. Also, MMSMCA gets the spear out 10 secs faster, and the opponent also has to build the swords he didnt build by forgoing SAS. So the difference is not much really.

So far I don't see any major arguments made against my strat, unless you count the one skele wrote

Quote from Josephong

@gaismail
Sometimes players who have played me before expect a CA start, so they go AM followed by eco spam. But that's not really the main point anyways cos I'm sidestepping by explaining how I can fuck people up who try to build a counter to my strategy lol.
Also, you mention that "So no matter what you do, there's always gonna be ... CA dodging." I think I've already established the point that CA dodging isn't really a good counter to my strategy. If it were seen commonly and used effectively, then my strategy would be not useful. But that's not the case. Also, I have a sword that can run alongside and attack the archer as she kites. If they want to do damage, they have to take damage. And if they take too much damage, I can wrestle back tower control.

@ase
I assume you mean kited to death, you're talking about the spearton being kited by archers. Like I said, 2 archers isn;t going to do much in a short map, spearton can get out alive with no problems unless you get too greedy. With AMM, if the archer presses in, i have more than enough time to get CA without delaying eco as the sword can tank damage. Also, MMSMCA gets the spear out 10 secs faster, and the opponent also has to build the swords he didnt build by forgoing SAS. So the difference is not much really.

So far I don't see any major arguments made against my strat, unless you count the one skele wrote

If the opponent forces you to invest into a CA, that CA could've been an archer or two miners, you will be down in army/eco depending on how you want to look on it. Once your CA is forced, there is no immediate threat to the archer, so the opponent can stack miners too whilst having tower control. You're basically at a disadvantage at that point. They will be able to out-army you because you're down an archer as well.

Well if you buy a castle archer you can still spam miners, and you'll be spamming while being ahead in your miner count.

Josephong also said MMS followed by an archer purchase is something he does to counter archer miner starts. No castle archer purchase there.

Quote from Josephong

@gaismail
Sometimes players who have played me before expect a CA start, so they go AM followed by eco spam. But that's not really the main point anyways cos I'm sidestepping by explaining how I can fuck people up who try to build a counter to my strategy lol.
Also, you mention that "So no matter what you do, there's always gonna be ... CA dodging." I think I've already established the point that CA dodging isn't really a good counter to my strategy. If it were seen commonly and used effectively, then my strategy would be not useful. But that's not the case. Also, I have a sword that can run alongside and attack the archer as she kites. If they want to do damage, they have to take damage. And if they take too much damage, I can wrestle back tower control.

CA dodging isn't a good counter to your strat? I've played you before and raped each one of your miners just by CA dodging. It's GG you lose unless you have an archer guarding your miners.

Quote from nutsophast

Well if you buy a castle archer you can still spam miners, and you'll be spamming while being ahead in your miner count.

Josephong also said MMS followed by an archer purchase is something he does to counter archer miner starts. No castle archer purchase there.

Well I'd prob have a second archer by the time he has one, and he'd be prone to spearton cheese, cause that passive from tower helped a bit.

Change of plans: I can play this Wednesday evening or Friday evening UTC+0

Edit: Okay then guess I'll be trying to see you on Friday

I was kinda expecting you to try to offer a time for us to play.