Quote from Fr0zEnPh0eNiX

As for universal insurance. It's an awful, awful, terrible idea.

Quote from Deadface.

Yeah, just look how shitty it made Canada.

Oh, wait.

Quote from Teh_One

obama.
i don't hate mcain, i just hate palin. she isn't experienced enough to take the VP position. she thinks she has foreign exchange because she saw over trade routes from Russia and Canada. i can see the moon from my house, does that make me an astronaut? NOOOOOO.

Quote from Teh_One

obama.
i don't hate mcain, i just hate palin. she isn't experienced enough to take the VP position. she thinks she has foreign exchange because she saw over trade routes from Russia and Canada. i can see the moon from my house, does that make me an astronaut? NOOOOOO.

Quote from Fr0zEnPh0eNiX

You saw over trade routes between the Earth and the Moon? It wouldn't make you an astronaut, but I'd definitely respect your knowledge of the moon, or at least the relation you would have from the "moonanites" in order to be sure those trade routes run smoothly.

edit: to be completely fair with my earlier statement, McCain's health care idea is equally bad.

Quote from Teh_One

shit...
no, i mean that just because you see something, dosent mean that you are experienced.

Quote from Fr0zEnPh0eNiX

You sure about that Ash?

Generally speaking, you'll come to find:

Democrat = Love to raise taxes and create government programs that don't work... (example: Social Security! Working out great isn't it?)

Republican = Love to lower taxes and take away government control as a whole. (example: Stock market going completely haywire because people are inherently moronic.. some say this was the result of government interference, but who really knows?)

Blatant generalization. Democrats have been for higher taxes, but in this particular election, neither candidate will raise taxes above what they were when Reagen was president (that's about 30 something percent). Republicans over these last 8 years have drastically increased the size of government in every respect except regulating the economy.

At least that's how it used to be. I suppose the fear that McCain brings to the table is the continuation of the war, as opposed to Obama laying out a time line. Lets not beat around the bush, this is probably why Obama's approval ratings are so high right now, and in all honesty will probably win the race, well deserved or not.

Or could it be he has a real economic plan, besides more deregulation? Or could it be his environmental strategy? Could it be the universal health care, or the reinstatement of FDR's regulatory system on the economy? Could it be a change from the last 20 years of failed policies? You give Americans no credit.

I don't believe a set time line is really a fantastic plan
President Malaki agrees that the US needs a set timeline for withdrawal.
though, times have certainly changed since the days of old. Way back when, we'd just bomb the holy living hell out of a country and the war would be over pretty damn quick.
When did this ever happen?
Now it's an ethics fest, people are trying to do what's "Right"
.. so in this case they are attempting to make Iraq and Afghanistan (mainly Iraq because the general public doesn't pay attention to details) livable places to be, or in other words free nations... with a little extra oil on the side.

His idea of a shorter war is to be desired, but people don't think of the chaos it could leave behind or cause. The shortcut isn't always the best way to go.

Once again, President Malaki agrees that the US needs a set time line for withdrawal.

As for universal insurance. It's an awful, awful, terrible idea.

Please elaborate.

I'm voting Santa this year.

Quote from Dinomut

Answers in bold.

Quote from Fr0zEnPh0eNiX

You saw over trade routes between the Earth and the Moon? It wouldn't make you an astronaut, but I'd definitely respect your knowledge of the moon, or at least the relation you would have from the "moonanites" in order to be sure those trade routes run smoothly.

Quote from Fr0zEnPh0eNiX

No response to the santa thing?... that makes me sad.

I've read about his plan, I wasn't impressed. The same can be said for our buddy McCain as well though. I've read what they are for and against, I've read where they intend to get money from and what they intend to do, and frankly I don't think either of them really will do well for the country. I don't think anything Obama brings to the table is going to be revolutionary, and I certainly don't think it's gonna be smooth sailing if/when he comes into office.

It will not be smooth sailing if Obama is president and nobody expects it to be smooth sailing. Obama has emphasized that point in his campaign that every one of his plans are not miracle cures, but will take time and work to put into effect. McCain uses this as a given in his speeches, so nobody really expects it to be easy even though that's what some people have interpreted the speeches to mean.

Universal Health Care? Explain to me how you think this will actually work. People pay taxes... taxes go to the government... the government provides insurance... the government is in control of that and therefore can do whatever they want with it, eliminates a competitive market, and destroys competition.

Well the people control the government anyways, so any corruption would be silenced within 2 years due to senate and house elections. The government is really in the people's control as long as they don't pull a mass takeover the likes of the Great Purge, which doesn't seem likely. Federally funded health care would rid America of uninsured. The fact that we can let Americans be uninsured for health care is a travesty in and of itself, but the idea of privatizing it is completely ludicrous. Companies could manipulate healthcare the same way the government could, but this time we don't have control over them. We can't elect new heads of the companies, and we can't not buy their product as it is essential. Therefore private companies would be far more likely to become corrupt and abuse their power than the federal government.

Cool. I've had little faith in government programs since... forever. I work in a field heavily influenced by medicare, another "wonderful" program that is so corrupt and so saturated with fraud that it's almost more of a joke than anything. Think of any program and you can think of a million ways to abuse it. Again, look at how "great" social security is doing. Yeah, power to the feds!

Obama has proposed to reform both of those programs.

Good point. No arguments here really. I probably could, but frankly I figure we'll get dragged into another war as soon as we pull out of Iraq. Just a tingly feeling I have because we are a Country constantly at war.

But hopefully it will be a war that more than 1/5 of America agrees with.

Quote from Fr0zEnPh0eNiX

...Quid pro quo clarice...


Fair enough, but the real question is, is Obama going to take us in the right direction?
And from now on it is a policy debate.

Interesting point, but not really valid, and almost for the same reason you probably felt my original point wasn't either. The beauty of the free market and commercial business running things gives the great gift of competition. People have plenty of choices right now (believe it or not) and might not be aware of them. Many jobs include health insurance these days, and if you're not employed, not making enough money, there are programs the government have already that can get you the insurance you need. My mom is perfect example of this. She hasn't had a real job in years... YEARS... and she has full insurance from Badger Care. The government is full of corruption as is, and I'm sure there are lots of horrible people we would have to suffer through that would make health care a living hell, and there is no promise the next guy would be any better. Again, put it in the state's hands, not the federal government.

The founding fathers are probably rolling around in their graves.

The only companies that could afford to supply health care profitably would be large corporations, and with a small amount of large corporations supplying America with an essential product, we'd have the beginnings of an oligarchy on our hands. This isn't set in stone as what would happen, though, and it could turn out fine IF PRECAUTIONARY REGULATIONS WERE IMPOSED. This disagreement more branches from my trust of the government and your distrust, which is a different debate entirely.

Who knows how these reforms will work or operate.

Basically the thing that brought both down was lack of funding/oversight. This is easily changeable (extremely abridged version of Obama's plan).

We haven't had one of those in... forever, usually approval rating starts out high due to awesomely powerful propaganda, and then slowly the truth leaks out and the war's approval rating goes to shit. The real matter here is whether or not Iraq will be ok once we pull out. The president may think so, and I respect that, I'm sure I'd want soldiers out of my damn country too, but if Iraq can get to a good stable point, the war would have been less of a waste. Think about it, if troops pull out on a given date, from that point on Iraq is basically on it's own.

"Hey guys.... the Americans are gone... LETS BLOW SHIT UP!"

Quote from Fr0zEnPh0eNiX

More or less, that's pretty much all we can run with other than character, and policy is usually pretty obscure anyway. I was talking to a friend of mine tonight and most of the stuff the candidates voted for over the years are blown way out of proportion, I'm sure you know that already though. To add a little something something, I think it was way out of line to associate Obama with terrorists, what a low blow, and completely out of line.


That's the way politics are nowadays. If you watch a whole shitload of news like my family does you can find out the specifics of most of each candidate's strategy. Although the amount of news watching in comparison to the amount of information getting is extremely disproportionate, the information is still there.

If they make a decision, they know they can do it, they can completely destroy our rights if they want to, and they have. Look at the Patriot act.. of course... The sad truth is our federal government is growing to be so powerful, that there isn't jack we can do about it. This is because we live in a country of sheep. Don't trust them.

As for medical stuff, if you want to have a compromise that would ****ing own. Your best bet would have state control over medical coverage. If you aren't happy with your state's policy, move to a better state. This way you got 50 different choices, and that is a lot of competition for each state.

State provided health care would have its shortfalls, but yeah, that seems far more feasible than having the two extremes of federally funded health care (Obama, still closer to what I want, so i support him) or completely privatized health care (McCain).

Well, there are only a few ways I can think of that we can raise funding. Raising taxes... or... borrowing from other countries. It isn't like we have a large pool of money sitting around waiting. The real problem with social security is the huge population growth the world has experienced, and moochers getting social security who shouldn't be, which is a lot of people if I understand correctly. It's bad math.

We'll need to go farther into debt for the time being to repair a lot of the government. As for what you said on social security, that would be solved by oversight.


Trust me, I won't pin you on the specifics. I always found it unrealistic to have some sort of reference waiting in detail for every argument. That's an unfair expectation of someone unless of course they are running for president =P

It's really hard to make a decision for me as to how I really feel about the Iraq war because I can see where both candidates are coming from. Truthfully though, something doesn't sit right with me with a fixed time line. With something as brutally chaotic as a war, I don't see that being a legitimate way to go about solving it... There is way too much that can go wrong, even after we pull out.

Simply put: America doesn't want to be in Iraq. Iraq doesn't want or need America in Iraq anymore. That's what it comes down to IMO.

BTW, off topic for a sec, it's nice to debate with someone who actually can debate. I respect that.
Aww, you shouldn't have :Embarrassed: