Abortion
Started by: Nodd | Replies: 152 | Views: 7,335
Apr 4, 2009 4:13 PM #388507
Are we arguing about who gets the right to kill or save the baby?
Apr 4, 2009 4:14 PM #388515
Yes. I think the father should have a say in whether or not the child is aborted if he is willing to take the child and never bother the woman again.
Kaas disagrees.
Kaas disagrees.
Apr 4, 2009 4:35 PM #388566
Quote from ZedYes. I think the father should have a say in whether or not the child is aborted if he is willing to take the child and never bother the woman again.
Kaas disagrees.
I not as much as disagree, I just say that the mother has first pick in most situations.
Apr 4, 2009 4:55 PM #388606
Well I agree there. In most situations the father won't offer to completely absolve her of responsibility, in which case she may do as she wishes.It's when he will and it's just a case of nine months inconvenience and an hours pain followed by absolute nothingness and getting on with her life that I object to the father being denied his right to a child.
Apr 4, 2009 7:51 PM #388690
Quote from ZedYes. How is a woman mentally scarred by giving birth? Most women in either of our countries have given birth and the vast mahjority are not mentally scarred.
Honestly? How the hell do you know that? You have never gone through that, you have never felt it, and most of the moms I have spoken to (on that subject) Speak of the unbearable pain of giving birth. You have no right to decide that the pain they feel isn't real, nor is it life changing, you are ridiculous.
Apr 5, 2009 3:52 PM #389149
Quote from JeremyHonestly? How the hell do you know that? You have never gone through that, you have never felt it, and most of the moms I have spoken to (on that subject) Speak of the unbearable pain of giving birth. You have no right to decide that the pain they feel isn't real, nor is it life changing, you are ridiculous.
What? I never said it wasn't painful. I said that most women who give birth are not mentally traumatised by the event. I know this for a fact because the vast majority of women are in a perfectly healthy state of mind, hence psychiatric wards are not overflowing.
Apr 5, 2009 4:04 PM #389154
Quote from ZedWhat? I never said it wasn't painful. I said that most women who give birth are not mentally traumatised by the event. I know this for a fact because the vast majority of women are in a perfectly healthy state of mind, hence psychiatric wards are not overflowing.
There is more then one definition for the word trauma.
Giving birth is a painful process, such, it is often described as the most pain a human being can possible have/handle. It is a live changing event and there are often scars that will never heal and the body will often not be able to fully regenerate afterwards. Some women pass out from the pain or even die in the process...
Yes, a man totally goes trough the same amount of trauma <_< >_>
Apr 5, 2009 6:35 PM #389268
Sometimes the mothers never lose the wait, have scarring, stretch marks, etc.
Apr 6, 2009 9:16 AM #389686
Quote from KaasThere is more then one definition for the word trauma.
Giving birth is a painful process, such, it is often described as the most pain a human being can possible have/handle. It is a live changing event and there are often scars that will never heal and the body will often not be able to fully regenerate afterwards. Some women pass out from the pain or even die in the process...
Yes, a man totally goes trough the same amount of trauma <_< >_>
If he feels that his baby has been killed then yes he does. He will be suicidal. Almost no one dies in childbirth in first world countries and, I am going to say this one more time:
The pain of childbirth is temporary.
Yes, there may be scarring. Have a ceasarian! You will get barely more scars than an abortion would have given you.
You may get stretch marks and never lose the weight you put on. What a brilliant reason to drive a man to suicide!
Once you have given the baby away it will have no further effect on your life. I have not seen any evidence yet to suggest that merely having a biological child somewhere in the world who you don't give a shit about changes your life in any way. You keep saying "it's a lifechanging experience" but I don't see why and you havn't told me.
Apr 6, 2009 9:41 AM #389697
Of course the man would always commit suicide after having his baby aborted, but in no realistic case ever would the wife have serious outside scarring. The chances of the man committing suicide are obviously greater than any adverse effect on the wife. Obviously. That makes complete sense. No. I guarantee there have been under 10 cases IN ALL OF HISTORY AND TIME, where a man has been so stricken with grief over his aborted child that he was driven to suicide. Please see how completely absurd your point is, for your sanity, please.
And are you joking? There is no way a CESAREAN SURGERY, CUTTING OPEN THE ABDOMEN would ever come close to the 'scarring' an abortion could give you. Especially if you get one in the first trimester. There is absolutely no scarring left in a first trimester abortion.
On a side note guys, the excruciating pain of torture is only temporary, so logically its an A-okay way to get information.
And are you joking? There is no way a CESAREAN SURGERY, CUTTING OPEN THE ABDOMEN would ever come close to the 'scarring' an abortion could give you. Especially if you get one in the first trimester. There is absolutely no scarring left in a first trimester abortion.
On a side note guys, the excruciating pain of torture is only temporary, so logically its an A-okay way to get information.
Apr 6, 2009 9:59 AM #389706
Quote from JeremyOf course the man would always commit suicide after having his baby aborted, but in no realistic case ever would the wife have serious outside scarring. The chances of the man committing suicide are obviously greater than any adverse effect on the wife. Obviously. That makes complete sense. No. I guarantee there have been under 10 cases IN ALL OF HISTORY AND TIME, where a man has been so stricken with grief over his aborted child that he was driven to suicide. Please see how completely absurd your point is, for your sanity, please.
There have been few cases because it is not a common occurance. There have likely been fewer than 10 times in history when a man has been willing to take the child away but the mother has aborted anyway. You cannot possibly argue that physical scars have a greater effect than the psychological impact of the death of your child.
And are you joking? There is no way a CESAREAN SURGERY, CUTTING OPEN THE ABDOMEN would ever come close to the 'scarring' an abortion could give you. Especially if you get one in the first trimester. There is absolutely no scarring left in a first trimester abortion.
Can I just ask a brief question? How does a scar on your stomach utterly ruin the rest of your life? I have a scar on my hand which is far more visable but it has had no effect on me whatsoever beyond perhaps thirty seconds in total of conversation.
On a side note guys, the excruciating pain of torture is only temporary, so logically its an A-okay way to get information.
I'm gonna get badly flamed for this but yes. If the benefit will outweigh the pain torture is morally acceptable. Would you refuse to torture a terrorist who had left a biological timebomb in a crowded area but you didn't know where?
Answers in bold
Apr 6, 2009 10:11 AM #389712
You are right, it isn't a common occurrence because its not logical or realistic, so stop talking about it like it might actually happen. I'm not arguing that physical scars outweigh mental trauma, I'm telling you how unrealistic you are being, you just said that getting an abortion garners the same scarring as a c-section, I wasn't debating the idea of scarring over trauma, I was showing the absurdity of your statements.
The torture thing is for another thread, but its a naive choice, there is never a majority percentage that he will give you accurate information, and you have to take into account that if he is willing to bomb a crowded area with a bio weapon, he must be pretty dedicated to his cause, which makes the concept of making him so scared of pain and death that he reveals information illogical. The choice might not be morally wrong, but its a stupid desperate move that rarely ever works.
The torture thing is for another thread, but its a naive choice, there is never a majority percentage that he will give you accurate information, and you have to take into account that if he is willing to bomb a crowded area with a bio weapon, he must be pretty dedicated to his cause, which makes the concept of making him so scared of pain and death that he reveals information illogical. The choice might not be morally wrong, but its a stupid desperate move that rarely ever works.
Apr 6, 2009 10:48 AM #389727
Quote from JeremyYou are right, it isn't a common occurrence because its not logical or realistic, so stop talking about it like it might actually happen. I'm not arguing that physical scars outweigh mental trauma, I'm telling you how unrealistic you are being, you just said that getting an abortion garners the same scarring as a c-section, I wasn't debating the idea of scarring over trauma, I was showing the absurdity of your statements.
I only said it was similar. I advocate ceasarians so that the woman can have sex later without much effect. Obviously if a situation like this arises it is still best to cause the minimum impact possible on the mother.
It isn't a common occurance but it has happened on at least two occaisions. To the best of my knowledge, neither commited suicide, however, both felt that their child was being needlessly murdered and that sort of thing will cause psychological damage. Most likely they will/have developed acute depresion. The percentage that commit suicide will be below 50 which is why so far no one has died, however it is massively raised from the chances of suicide in a control condition of optimum mental health.
Apr 6, 2009 10:35 PM #390359
So the chance of them committing suicide barely raising(Only 2 people in history have done so, says you) Is enough to win over the very real, physical scarring on the body gained with a c-section?
If you want to argue trauma I will just use the physical appearance trauma a woman "could" get when she sees that scar. Her image of herself could drop so significantly that she would be driven to suicide...Sounds pretty ridiculous, huh?
If you want to argue trauma I will just use the physical appearance trauma a woman "could" get when she sees that scar. Her image of herself could drop so significantly that she would be driven to suicide...Sounds pretty ridiculous, huh?
Apr 7, 2009 1:56 PM #390733
You've made your point, but I think that the feeling that your child has been murdered by your ex-lover is a little more traumatic than abdominal scarring. Maybe that's just me.