The difference between you and me it seems (Judging by that post, at least, though it's possible I'm missing something), Jexam, is that I am more committed to the pursuit of truth than what I think will make me feel like I'm not so small.

That is a mostly accurate statement. I do have to say, though, that thinking a certain way to feel "not so small" and to feel whole are different things. I know I'm small, insignificant. Statistically, if any one of us dropped dead right now, the world as a whole wouldn't be affected. That alone keeps me "small", so to speak. Rather, I think the way I do because it feels right.

Now, it could be I'm absolutely wrong and this feeling is akin to the feeling one gets doing drugs; a temporary high followed by a need to reach that place again with increasingly addicting results. At worst, I'm an idiot, right? But I see nothing necessarily wrong with my chosen path, morally speaking (since I know someone is going to point out how they think I'm technically very, very wrong), and so I will continue down it until something comes along that manages to shake it.


Thank you for letting me participate in this debate. For a while there I was convinced I was too stupid to bother.

i agree with what jexsasm said earlier.
there must be something more meaningful out there than just a simple string of chemical equations and cause/effect. i don't care who/what it is, i don't want to worship it ect, but i think there has to be something out their that humans could never comprhend, be it a god, godess, or even just the force from star wars (lol)

Why do you think that? You only WANT there to be something more, to give your life meaning and to make death seem not so terrifying. And this "want" is so much that you actually start to believe in it.

Quote from walker90234

i agree with what jexsasm said earlier.
there must be something more meaningful out there than just a simple string of chemical equations and cause/effect. i don't care who/what it is, i don't want to worship it ect, but i think there has to be something out their that humans could never comprhend, be it a god, godess, or even just the force from star wars (lol)

Why? Why does there have to be soethig that humans can't comprehend out there? What makes you think that this is a requirement? Maybe it's just us.

It seems to me that the only reason you think that is because you want to believe it.


I have a question for both you and Jexam.

Did either of you grow up in a religious environment? Wee your parents religious, or perhaps new-agey? Were people around you at school and such religious? And were you yourselves ever religious?

My parents weren't all that religious, but my grandmother and great grandmother were. I went to a United Methodist church all my childhood, but around age 15 I ceased regular attendance, and stopped going altogether at about age 17 because I realized I didn't need a bunch of people in robes with an affinity for old books to tell me what to believe and how to live. I should make that choice myself.

As for being religious myself, I never was. I didn't like going to church at all, and found most of the lessons boring. Preaching, especially, was dull and uninteresting. I'd rather have been playing Power Rangers or something.

I'd still classify myself a Christian, but only because of my background and general belief in a figure quite similar to what the Bible describes as God. I don't really fit into the Wicca area, an area of religion my girlfriend is slowly teaching me about. Apparently, though, some of my ideas are pretty Wiccan in nature.

Do you think that the reason the idea of some sort of god "feels right" is because you have spent such a great deal of your life with the presupposition that one does? I felt that way for over a year after becoming an atheist, but it wore off. Likewise, I felt the same way when I found out that Silly Putty doesn't dissolve if you leave it out overnight like I had been told my whole life.

It doesn't?

Blast!

ive always HATED the idea of a christian god. my parents arent religous ad when i lived in america i wasn't in a religous school. then i moved to england ad everyone was preaching in morning assembly. it really pissed me off.

as i said the idea of a god doesn't apeal to me and i dont necesarilly believe in anything else out there, its just that the universe is so massive, there has to be something else.
the idea of ddeath confounds me slightly, and i beleive there is something after death, it may be unknowable, and i don't care if its bliss or not, but it justt seems impossible that my concousness could just dissapear.

you think of life as this energy, and it cannot be just a string of equations, sentience has to mean something, i mean, its literally impossible to considder nothingness isn't it.

i dont care wether after deeath it is eternal suffering or bliss, or even reicarnation, but the ideass, the thoughts in your head, cannot just...
go

Quote from walker90234

ive always HATED the idea of a christian god. my parents arent religous ad when i lived in america i wasn't in a religous school. then i moved to england ad everyone was preaching in morning assembly. it really pissed me off.

as i said the idea of a god doesn't apeal to me and i dont necesarilly believe in anything else out there, its just that the universe is so massive, there has to be something else.
the idea of ddeath confounds me slightly, and i beleive there is something after death, it may be unknowable, and i don't care if its bliss or not, but it justt seems impossible that my concousness could just dissapear.

you think of life as this energy, and it cannot be just a string of equations, sentience has to mean something, i mean, its literally impossible to considder nothingness isn't it.

i dont care wether after deeath it is eternal suffering or bliss, or even reicarnation, but the ideass, the thoughts in your head, cannot just...
go

Thanks for talking about something that completely deviates from the subject matter bro.

Furthermore, death is a part of life, and your thoughts will just 'go' as you will no longer posses a brain to think them with. Sad truth of life, but inevitable.

To me, the existence of evil and suffering proves that there is no well willing, omnipotent divine being, as it seems logical to me that any such being would stop evil and suffering, instead of somehow incorporating it into its divine plan. It does not, however, prove that there cannot exist an omnipotent divine being.

No point arguing with faith-heads. They won't be open minded enough to listen because they're afraid what you're telling them might be true.

Okay, I've just had the weirdest idea ever.

Let's say there is a God. With all the misery and stuff, there is a God. He created a beginning in this world to let the Earth be created after billions of years with human-beings that had a sense of good & evil. Now let's say he did this on purpose, mmkay?

What if he did this to create Atheists. Don't know the whole point, but it seems pretty funny and maybe even logical. I mean religious people have always been fighting eachother, like the 9/11 happening or Israel en Palestina, but I've never heard of an assault by religious people on Atheists...

Did this make any sense?

First, to Ash:

Sorry I didn't get around to answering last night, some shit happened and I just didn't feel like posting much anyplace.

To answer your question, yes, I think it's very possible this sense of emptiness I get when seriously considering there is no God may very well be nothing more than the discomfort of parting with a familiar and central concept. This still won't change my mind, though.

I would like to thank you, though. You answered the one question that's been bugging me about Atheists (capitalized now out of newfound respect); how they can be happy in what I would define as an empty existence. What you said makes perfect sense. I have learned something new, my understanding of people has been broadened, and for that, I thank you.


Next:

Quote from Gyohdon

Okay, I've just had the weirdest idea ever.

Let's say there is a God. With all the misery and stuff, there is a God. He created a beginning in this world to let the Earth be created after billions of years with human-beings that had a sense of good & evil. Now let's say he did this on purpose, mmkay?

What if he did this to create Atheists. Don't know the whole point, but it seems pretty funny and maybe even logical. I mean religious people have always been fighting eachother, like the 9/11 happening or Israel en Palestina, but I've never heard of an assault by religious people on Atheists...

Did this make any sense?

This is loosely related to something I've always believed; God isn't stupid, and everything He does lies within the bounds of science so that we may actively seek to sate our curiosity within our scope of understanding.

Your thought requires a shit ton of assumptions, but the implication is interesting; causing peace by eliminating the variable of religion. It's a mind-numbingly simple solution, really.

Quote from Automaton

No point arguing with faith-heads. They won't be open minded enough to listen because they're afraid what you're telling them might be true.

Same to no-faith heads.

Quote from Gyohdon

Okay, I've just had the weirdest idea ever.

Let's say there is a God. With all the misery and stuff, there is a God. He created a beginning in this world to let the Earth be created after billions of years with human-beings that had a sense of good & evil. Now let's say he did this on purpose, mmkay?

What if he did this to create Atheists. Don't know the whole point, but it seems pretty funny and maybe even logical. I mean religious people have always been fighting eachother, like the 9/11 happening or Israel en Palestina, but I've never heard of an assault by religious people on Atheists...

Did this make any sense?

You might also want to notice, that Atheism has only been around for at most 200 years. Christianity 2000, Islam about the same. Anyway, the only religious conflict that you mentioned is 9/11. The Israel conflict is more political then anything. Then it is only the very small minority who are violent. You only need to look at Stalin and Pol-Pots regimes to see that there are belief driven actions of violence by Atheists. Bot Stalin and Pol-Pot killed thousand and hundreds of thousands because, having a different religious belief to the state meant they though, and hence were against the state. To live you had to desert your faith or never publicly practice