Quote from Jeff

I don't like the assumption that 'animals' don't do what humans do. I was reading recently that elephants understand and conceptualize death in a deep emotional way. On that note, here's a video of an elephant painting better than my girlfriend. I find any notion that humans are the only species to do anything ridiculous. It's not quite so black & white. You can't just say 'Humans' do this, 'Animals' don't, therefore humans are/aren't evil.

I was using the similarities between humans and other animals to show that humans aren't evil, and then pointed out something that I thought was "uncommon" from other animals.
I was trying to say what Automaton said in a roundabout way :/. Ever heard of "feral children"? There was this girl that was raised by dogs who didn't have human morals of "right and wrong". she only had the basic instincts that she was born with and a way of surviving that dog's abide by. It may be weird to say hat humans could survive without morals, but I'm not talking about something basic like: "it's wrong to stick your hand in fire", I mean morals that identify you, such as: "If I kill this animal, their family will be sad, therefore that is bad"

Wrath is the cardinal sin associated with suicide and passion, killing oneself because you are upset at yourself. Find an animal that actually commits suicide (not Lemings). Also, do animals get passionate about things in real life? Is there really a bear that worries about forest fires?

A great example to go with the above point is altruism. Not only does some human emotion not coincide with survival, some of it goes directly against it.

Gulliver's Travels is the answer.

Quote from GiriX

I was using the similarities between humans and other animals to show that humans aren't evil, and then pointed out something that I thought was "uncommon" from other animals.
I was trying to say what Automaton said in a roundabout way :/. Ever heard of "feral children"? There was this girl that was raised by dogs who didn't have human morals of "right and wrong". she only had the basic instincts that she was born with and a way of surviving that dog's abide by. It may be weird to say hat humans could survive without morals, but I'm not talking about something basic like: "it's wrong to stick your hand in fire", I mean morals that identify you, such as: "If I kill this animal, their family will be sad, therefore that is bad"

Wrath is the cardinal sin associated with suicide and passion, killing oneself because you are upset at yourself. Find an animal that actually commits suicide (not Lemings). Also, do animals get passionate about things in real life? Is there really a bear that worries about forest fires?

You were not using similarities from what I could see. In fact, the end of your post and the beginning contradict each other. You're saying that humans are the only ones that commits suicide. You're also questioning if animals get passionate about things like humans, as if to say that is another thing that humans do and animals don't. These assumptions are based on what? What research have you done to support your theory? It seems like you can't actually grasp a foreign concept such as animals having qualities similar to humans because you can't see it from an animal perspective, so your gut reaction is to say that it doesn't exist or doesn't happen.

This is the exact problem I have, because you're stating it like it's a fact until proven otherwise (that's not how burden of proof works, by the way), and then basing your whole argument off of it. It's almost impossible to know what animals are thinking, and what sort of emotional response they're having, if any at all, yet you're perfectly content stating facts on their behalf without actually knowing if you're correct or not. It's like people who say that homosexuality doesn't exist in animals as an argument for homosexuality being unnatural. You're supporting your argument with information that's baseless and wrong.

Now that I've ranted about the stupid use of animals vs humans to lie your point across, let me actually talk about your request for proof that animals can commit suicide. Before I link you, I want to say that it was absolutely not difficult at all to find this article, and that if you actually did any research before coming here and posting, you'd probably already have learned the information in this article, saving us from this conversation. Anyway, from the Discovery website: ANIMAL SUICIDE SHEDS LIGHT ON HUMAN BEHAVIOR. The most interesting bit in this article for me was about the Pea Aphids, which are little tiny suicide bombers. They explode themselves, committing suicide, to possibly save their kin or kill an attacker. It's not the same way someone would describe someone who is suicidal, but it's still suicide.

My first post was very unorganized, sorry. But I completely grasp the fact that humans ARE animals and are therefore similar to others, thanks for comparing me to a Roman Catholic.
The dog story shows me what I wanted, but I would have liked to know why the dog wanted to die, what caused it's depression. But anyway, there it is, wrath in animals! I wasn't making an assumption about passion btw, it was a question (that I made sound subjective, for that I'm sorry). Sacrifice to protect your genes is utilitarian. I ASSUME that base instincts are Utilitarian. that's all I've got.

Quote from GiriX

Find an animal that actually commits suicide

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/08/12/facing-medical-torture-chinese-bear-reportedly-kills-cub-then-self/

Also, it's safe to say that currently, we are the safest we've ever been, so murderous rampages capture not only our attention, but excitement.[/QUOTE]
That is why Rambo was sooo awesome.there was a dictator and started killing random ppl with the army.to gain more soldiers by kidnapping kids,too.

Again, bunk argument. It's a fictional movie, and hence has no bearing on the question of whether HUMANS IN THE REAL WORLD are evil or good.

Quote from walker90234

Again, bunk argument. It's a fictional movie, and hence has no bearing on the question of whether HUMANS IN THE REAL WORLD are evil or good.

well, the whole movie was actually based on human actions,there is no supernatural things in rambo.the closest thing to hand blasts are pistols.

Stop talking about Rambo, for fuck's sake

ok.

There are definitely evil people.
Potato.

I feel as if the human race is so used to everything. They're so used to hearing about someone dying, and aren't phased by it anymore. You turn on the TV and what do you know, 6 people were shot in their sleep, but in your eyes, it's nothing new, it's the norm, so you don't get phased by it. So I think, we're so used to seeing and hearing this all, we don't feel as if the thoughts that go through our heads are evil. We feel as if it happens all the time. So we don't care.

Either that or hearing that 6 people were shot in their sleep doesn't make a difference to most people's lives. Why should we care? If we treated every death as a travesty we'd get nothing done.

Quote from Aerwhale

I feel as if the human race is so used to everything. They're so used to hearing about someone dying, and aren't phased by it anymore. You turn on the TV and what do you know, 6 people were shot in their sleep, but in your eyes, it's nothing new, it's the norm, so you don't get phased by it. So I think, we're so used to seeing and hearing this all, we don't feel as if the thoughts that go through our heads are evil. We feel as if it happens all the time. So we don't care.

Nobody in Cambodia gave a fuck about the Crusades.