not @ all do i agree with u but like i siad im just here 4 the stick figure stuff

Quote from Automaton

Also, the lack of disembodied grey matter doesn't prove anything because those who believe in god will simply say that god is both intelligent and lacks physical form (as he's outside of our physical reality, but also within it - don't ask me how that works, I don't know either, it's stupid but people like to make claims like that about god).

Then their claim is inconsistent. Intelligence is impossible without physical form. An intelligent self is a bundle of perceptions, but to perceive anything is to have organs capable of perception. Exilement, you're up.

Why does it have to be so if a god exists outside of our universe and/or logic? Also, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence in terms of not seeing a giant brain.

You're confused about who has the burden of proof in this situation. The person making the wild claims has to be the one to prove them. The claim 'you can't prove me wrong, so therefore it must be true' or 'the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' is fallacious. Using that logic I could claim that we were clucked into existence by an omniscient sky-chicken and I would be correct by default because you have no proof against it. In the real world, the person making the claim is burdened with the task of proving their claim true. You think there's a giant space-brain out there that created the universe? Gather empirical evidence and prove to us that it exists.

Quote from Jeff

You're confused about who has the burden of proof in this situation. The person making the wild claims has to be the one to prove them. The claim 'you can't prove me wrong, so therefore it must be true' or 'the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' is fallacious. Using that logic I could claim that we were clucked into existence by an omniscient sky-chicken and I would be correct by default because you have no proof against it. In the real world, the person making the claim is burdened with the task of proving their claim true. You think there's a giant space-brain out there that created the universe? Gather empirical evidence and prove to us that it exists.

I'm not confused at all, I made the same point only a couple of pages ago. My point in arguing against Zed was to try and prove that the best argument for atheism isn't the one about benevolence because that only disproves some gods. By arguing against him in the way similar to a creationist, it will eventually lead him to the same argument that you just made or something similar, at which point I would have then made the point that he should have just said that argument in the first place. If asked for one argument for atheism you're much better in using the positive claim argument or something else that goes against all gods that go purely by the definition of an "intelligent creator".

[edit]
Also, @Zed, being a devil's advocate here:

In another post you stated in response to cogito ergo sum:
'It would be more correct to say "I think, therefore a thought occurs".'
However, you then claim that:
'Intelligence is impossible without physical form'

How so?

Quote from Automaton

I'm not confused at all, I made the same point only a couple of pages ago. My point in arguing against Zed was to try and prove that the best argument for atheism isn't the one about benevolence because that only disproves some gods. By arguing against him in the way similar to a creationist, it will eventually lead him to the same argument that you just made or something similar, at which point I would have then made the point that he should have just said that argument in the first place. If asked for one argument for atheism you're much better in using the positive claim argument or something else that goes against all gods that go purely by the definition of an "intelligent creator".

Ah, I got you. That is a good point, and I think I just helped you prove it by replying after reading your posts out of context.

Quote from Zed

Let's do this the old fashioned way: How can there be an all-loving all-powerful God when there is so much suffering in the world? And when you think of how much death is caused by religious disagreement, why wouldn't such a god just write in the clouds "I don't want you to eat pork but shellfish is fine"?

Suffering is the result of free-will, I suppose that's the typical argument against it. And there are no commandments against eating pork, so whoever decided it's religiously abhorrent isn't following his word. He shouldn't have to correct them when it's plainly in the bible.

Quote from Zed

Intelligence is impossible without physical form. An intelligent self is a bundle of perceptions, but to perceive anything is to have organs capable of perception. Exilement, you're up.

These are restraints known to our universe and the life within it. Anthropomorphizing a god assumes he's bound by the same limitations as the universe he created.

Kind of reminds me of that quote, "A finitely complex human mind can only comprehend an infinitely simple god as infinitely complex". Or something like that.

I'm going to focus on the theistic stuff, because arguing against the deistic stuff seems to always bring me back to saying "God" is a meaningless word. And that's no fun.

Quote from Exilement

Suffering is the result of free-will, I suppose that's the typical argument against it. And there are no commandments against eating pork, so whoever decided it's religiously abhorrent isn't following his word. He shouldn't have to correct them when it's plainly in the bible.

But it says you shouldn't eat pork in the Qu'ran (sp?). And a billion people are being brought up told that the Qu'ran is the book which tells the truth - not the Bible. They don't have free will in this matter. Surely God should sort this mess out.

It actually originated in the hebrew bible. The reasons were most likely because of hygienic practices back in those times, and it was generally considered taboo to eat any part of a pig. Religious officials will openly admit that outdated cultural practices and beliefs are reflected in scripture, and we're not expected to take it literally when determining how to act in modern times.

Islam focuses strongly on keeping the mind/body/soul "pure", and certain things like alcohol and pork were seen as impure. That might not be the case anymore, but their traditions don't hurt anyone. They abstain from it believing they're making themselves healthier and closer to their god, I don't see why god would intervene for something so trivial.

Quote from Exilement

Islam focuses strongly on keeping the mind/body/soul "pure", and certain things like alcohol and pork were seen as impure. That might not be the case anymore, but their traditions don't hurt anyone. They abstain from it believing they're making themselves healthier and closer to their god, I don't see why god would intervene for something so trivial.

Then what about crusades and jihads? You could say that their underlying motivation is not 100% religious, but it would be much harder to motivate the foot soldiers if everyone was the same religion. Why can't God make Himself known clearly and distinctly, rather than providing no more evidence for His existence than any of the other mutually exclusive religions have for their gods?

Maybe god has other plans, he just might know something you don't.:rolleyes:

I just asked myself whether I honestly believed that there was a being supervising my every moment, and that he acted independent of the laws of nature and logic.

Quote from Hellsing

Maybe god has other plans, he just might know something you don't.:rolleyes:

Then he should write "I have other plans" on my bedroom wall in blood right now. By deceiving people and denying them the truth you impede their ability to make informed decisions. If God is wilfully misleading me as to his non-existence then he is affecting my ability to make free choices and the free will argument against evil breaks down.

Quote from Zed

I'm going to focus on the theistic stuff, because arguing against the deistic stuff seems to always bring me back to saying "God" is a meaningless word. And that's no fun.

Please provide that argument anyway, I need more ammo for my anti-theist arsenal XD

Then he should write "I have other plans" on my bedroom wall in blood right now. By deceiving people and denying them the truth you impede their ability to make informed decisions. If God is wilfully misleading me as to his non-existence then he is affecting my ability to make free choices and the free will argument against evil breaks down.

Life's a test.