Quote from Leviathan King of Pride

Bombers are very weak. buff them a little bit. the Miner chaos tower doesn't explode .

looool. get smarter.

Troll feeding.

Quote from _Ai_

Troll feeding.

No, the troll(s) was/were the 4 idiots, who instead of trying to explain to him, a different side of an opinion, they were just dicks about it. Be nice and back on topic.
Bombers might be changed a bit soon. MIGHT.

Quote from Tecness2

No, the troll(s) was/were the 4 idiots, who instead of trying to explain to him, a different side of an opinion, they were just dicks about it. Be nice and back on topic.
Bombers might be changed a bit soon. MIGHT.

But seriously though. Bombs, weak? It's strong, more than anything. It's almost a fact around here.

Quote from Tecness2

No, the troll(s) was/were the 4 idiots, who instead of trying to explain to him, a different side of an opinion, they were just dicks about it. Be nice and back on topic.
Bombers might be changed a bit soon. MIGHT.

I don't know Tecness. There's reasonable questions like "Why don't bombers blow up the Chaos miner towers?" And then there's statements like "bombers are weak, buff them."

And the change you're actually talking about is nerfing their burn damage, which has indeed taken place. I don't mind answering to a question. But I won't answer stupidity.

Quote from WyzDM

I don't know Tecness. There's reasonable questions like "Why don't bombers blow up the Chaos miner towers?" And then there's statements like "bombers are weak, buff them."

It doesn't matter if people are being dumb, in the end you and the other 3's posts have done nothing but spam the thread needlessly by picking on him in your own passive aggressive ways.

This is a warning to be nice to other users. Golden Rule.

Fineee Hewitt. But only because you said so.

On the subject, I notice that sometimes on swamp my games will freeze with any player. Most of these matches are thankfully unrranked, but I see a common theme with the swamp map and archidon play within the first 40-50 seconds. I don't know if it's entirely coincidental, but to me it looks like a pattern (with the amount of games I play anyway, and not having any of the same behavior recently in other maps). Throwing it out there, if anyone else has thought about this please speak up.

WyzDM,i agree in swamp map sometime it freeze but vs low rankers.
Bombers are not weak but in early match vs Elemental it's hard to kill fire,i tried 4 bombers to kill 1 fire but it still lives meanwhile I used 5 cats with 1 bomber but they all die while fire was kitting. My skills are of 2500 of chaos so it shouldn't be that hard to kill. But sorry to say in new update Due to decrease Of burning effect of bombers it sucks vs Ele only at start . I have lost a match vs a 2k player he was Using ele :( -30 to me.
Well it's the start, I know all empires will be equal soon.
Order=It's Easy to control but expensive units,and that take time.
Chaos=Hard to control crawlers and bombers but in start than its a peace of a cake.
Elemental= op in DM,i am not getting it yet in classic.
Extra:-Chaos and Order are Equal in DM as well as in Classic with new update also . Just Ele will take time and devs are working on it and it will be Equal too.
Stick Empires is best game ever. ♡♡

Chaos and order are in no way equal in DM, especially short maps.

Quote from sorrowandsadness

Chaos and order are in no way equal in DM, especially short maps.

Please explain why this is so.

what, tecness and hewitt telling others to be nice? i had accepted that modding a bunch of 12 year olds made them both pricks, that is totally understandable. but hypocrites, too? interesting.

edited to acknowledge total agreement with tecness/hewitt in this case... but still :)

Quote from WyzDM

Please explain why this is so.

In short maps, chaos almost always follows two openings. jugger/medusa/skeleton then either two wings or two deads.

Chaos always by default takes middle. Chaos has two units out of the box that can either instant kill or guarantee killing of almost all basic order units. While order has no ability like it either way. Order thus starts the match in a fully defensive and economically disadvantages position.

Chaos generally waits to tower spawn, so 90-120 second mark. If the order player is very good, you may have 1 ninja, maybe two, at this point with shinobi 2, but often Chaos attacks as early as 60-75 seconds, well before order has any offensive ability to stop the attack. Generally, a good chaos player (not a great, just an average one) can attack, then retreat and heal for free, while the order players is slowly ground down... until the chaos player either has giant spawn or giants to tank, and it is game over. If you micro very very very well, you may be able to break the first assault. But again, you are totally disadvantaged in the opening, and the shorter the map, the worse it is for order.

Since order wizard was nerfed, order has pretty much no way to stop kiting bat wing things for chaos. The deads are in large numbers far more powerful than archers or flying archers. The juggers of chaos if you try to use a spear can easily knock the spear far back, exposing your lines... on a unit by unit basis, especially early game, chaos just shreds order... and if they get in trouble, they just walk away and heal, with no unit/gold/manna cost and control of center.

Again, the toplist says it all. If you look at DM toplist, almost all the order players are gone from the top 30. A number of chaos guys who were top 15, as soon as there premium lapsed, dropped like stones out of the top ranks. I just glanced, and not counting Fantasma (who is being pushed/cheating), there are maybe two orders players in the entire top 30 left, maybe less. A number of players, like Azrskye, never made top 20ish... until they went premium.



The new update just continues the pattern of nerfing order and buffing other empires.

Great, cited reasons. I can work with explaining this. I never said you're wrong, but I only find this an issue on castle mostly, sometimes swamp/h'ween because of wall space but not as bad as castle.

Quote from sorrowandsadness

In short maps, chaos almost always follows two openings. jugger/medusa/skeleton then either two wings or two deads.

That's not always every start. Is that a common one? Yes. But I've seen straight dead-jug, without the backrow support. Some players opt for this because being more gold focused produces a larger army in shorter time. But we can break down this specific build if you like.

Quote from sorrowandsadness

Chaos always by default takes middle. Chaos has two units out of the box that can either instant kill or guarantee killing of almost all basic order units. While order has no ability like it either way. Order thus starts the match in a fully defensive and economically disadvantages position.

I wouldn't say by default, that sounds like every time exactly, but yes, a good chaos player will seize this map control early. Now, when you list two units that can pop another unit immediately, I take one to be the medusa, but I don't know what you mean for the other one. Marrows don't guarantee kills, and while the Medusa is deadly, there's a trick to fighting these types of units. When using speartons, be sure to keep spearton wall up. Marrows cant' fear them forward, and meduas can't stone kill them. Ninjas can cloak on the same tick as a stone and remain in the shonobi to strike. Using these two together is very important against this kind of aggressive start!

Quote from sorrowandsadness

Chaos generally waits to tower spawn, so 90-120 second mark. If the order player is very good, you may have 1 ninja, maybe two, at this point with shinobi 2, but often Chaos attacks as early as 60-75 seconds, well before order has any offensive ability to stop the attack. Generally, a good chaos player (not a great, just an average one) can attack, then retreat and heal for free, while the order players is slowly ground down... until the chaos player either has giant spawn or giants to tank, and it is game over. If you micro very very very well, you may be able to break the first assault. But again, you are totally disadvantaged in the opening, and the shorter the map, the worse it is for order.

Your word choice here is poor in some areas, but I know what you're saying. Your first statement about towerspawn is completely subjective. I know quite a few players who don't bother with the towerspawn. Many opt not to use it after running your supposed medusa/marrow open because of the cost in resources. Most players will instead build a controlled unit to further stack their army for the approach. About retaliting with multiple ninjas, that's not good macro. You only want to use one at the start, so you can pump speartons for that defense. While 1 ninja against 1 medusa/marrow seems weak, as long as you first target the medusa, you don't need to fear the marrowkai. Just don't give him anything worth reaping.

About this free heal.... you realize that has nothing on a meric right? And I wouldn't call it free, it's only effective the more outside of combat it is. Again, chaos giants isn't something I worry about because that's 1500g, and if they're goign for a really aggressive opening, they can't spend that money yet. So yeah, chaos may have the army advantage, but you don't have to hand them the win. Play smart hold them off while you collect your economy to build your response.

Quote from sorrowandsadness

Since order wizard was nerfed, order has pretty much no way to stop kiting bat wing things for chaos. The deads are in large numbers far more powerful than archers or flying archers. The juggers of chaos if you try to use a spear can easily knock the spear far back, exposing your lines... on a unit by unit basis, especially early game, chaos just shreds order... and if they get in trouble, they just walk away and heal, with no unit/gold/manna cost and control of center.

I don't find the magikill cost affecting much of anything. Deads have an advantage over archidons directly, but not in the damage sense. Deads are also slow and stuck to the ground They can't just "walk away and heal" without getting wrecked by a faster unit.

The jug knocking the spear doesn't help order, but that's not a glitch. That's designed. Chaos is all about having certain offensive edges.

Quote from sorrowandsadness

Again, the toplist says it all. If you look at DM toplist, almost all the order players are gone from the top 30. A number of chaos guys who were top 15, as soon as there premium lapsed, dropped like stones out of the top ranks. I just glanced, and not counting Fantasma (who is being pushed/cheating), there are maybe two orders players in the entire top 30 left, maybe less. A number of players, like Azrskye, never made top 20ish... until they went premium.

Here, you are right. Is this direct cause of something being wrong with balance? I don't entirely think so. I will admit this does have to do with direct combat sense. As you stated early, Chaos has an advantage pressing on small maps. That's true, and it's because of how fast deads spawn. They're slightly more in cost needing 100 mana to archidons, but they have the same build speed with more positive traits for offense (not to mention a crapload of health).

Quote from sorrowandsadness

The new update just continues the pattern of nerfing order and buffing other empires.

You mean the new update reducing bomber burn and giving elementals some help after sucking for the last month? This I don't understand.

Wyz, thanks for responding. Don't know how to do the whole interspersed responses, so I will just talk point by point as I see helpful

First, no matter the chaos opening, even in the many top matches I have watched/seen, chaos always takes center, regardless of opening. They are just more powerful out of the box, which disadvantages order significantly. When an empire has no choice but to turtle by default, thus giving the other group center gold, center spawn, and far gold, you have already tipped the scales significantly in their favor. If each empire can't equally fight for center, it is a problem, and again, the toplist and long term play results show this.

I wouldn't say by default, that sounds like every time exactly, but yes, a good chaos player will seize this map control early. Now, when you list two units that can pop another unit immediately, I take one to be the medusa, but I don't know what you mean for the other one. Marrows don't guarantee kills, and while the Medusa is deadly, there's a trick to fighting these types of units. When using speartons, be sure to keep spearton wall up. Marrows cant' fear them forward, and meduas can't stone kill them. Ninjas can cloak on the same tick as a stone and remain in the shonobi to strike. Using these two together is very important against this kind of aggressive start!
***

I disagree that marrows don't guarantee kills. Any decent player will easily kill any minor unit that gets skeleton controlled out from the back. Ninja, dead. Archer, dead. Healer, dead, etc.


Your word choice here is poor in some areas, but I know what you're saying. Your first statement about towerspawn is completely subjective. I know quite a few players who don't bother with the towerspawn. Many opt not to use it after running your supposed medusa/marrow open because of the cost in resources. Most players will instead build a controlled unit to further stack their army for the approach. About retaliting with multiple ninjas, that's not good macro. You only want to use one at the start, so you can pump speartons for that defense. While 1 ninja against 1 medusa/marrow seems weak, as long as you first target the medusa, you don't need to fear the marrowkai. Just don't give him anything worth reaping.
***
I disagree here and think you are wrong, and that replays and other things show it. Now for you, who has insanely good micro, other options might exist that work, but that is part of the problem. Generally speaking, two people of equal skill playing each other, whoever has chaos will win, because chaos is stronger and has just enough slight advantages that stack up to screw the order player. Or as a friend puts it, chaos has three lives, order, just one. Chaos players can make multiple mistakes in a match and skill win. Order player makes a single mistake, it is game over.


About this free heal.... you realize that has nothing on a meric right? And I wouldn't call it free, it's only effective the more outside of combat it is. Again, chaos giants isn't something I worry about because that's 1500g, and if they're goign for a really aggressive opening, they can't spend that money yet. So yeah, chaos may have the army advantage, but you don't have to hand them the win. Play smart hold them off while you collect your economy to build your response.
***
I disagree here as well. The meric is easily reapable/killable. The healing, once paid for, is free, and heals all units at the same time, even miners... and the healing rate is so high I chased a jugger with a ninja from center, and even though the jug was already badly hurt, (this was ice map), it did not die, but made it safely to castle garrison.



I don't find the magikill cost affecting much of anything. Deads have an advantage over archidons directly, but not in the damage sense. Deads are also slow and stuck to the ground They can't just "walk away and heal" without getting wrecked by a faster unit.
***

To some extent I agree... but you are assuming order will have enough battle units to strike back. I think this is wishful thinking, because order rarely survives the opening...
The jug knocking the spear doesn't help order, but that's not a glitch. That's designed. Chaos is all about having certain offensive edges.

Yeah, advantages that render order advantages pretty much worthless/disadvantages... as I pointed out, all orders "strengths" are pretty much weaknesses. Stronger flying wings, worthless with kiting against chaos wings. Shield wall of spearton... worthless, chaos, just knocks them back behind the wall, destroys wall, kills miners...

**
Here, you are right. Is this direct cause of something being wrong with balance? I don't entirely think so. I will admit this does have to do with direct combat sense. As you stated early, Chaos has an advantage pressing on small maps. That's true, and it's because of how fast deads spawn. They're slightly more in cost needing 100 mana to archidons, but they have the same build speed with more positive traits for offense (not to mention a crapload of health).
***
Any other plausible reason? No. Why not? Because when players lose their premium, for instance, they drop out of the top like a stone dropped off a cliff...

***
You mean the new update reducing bomber burn and giving elementals some help after sucking for the last month? This I don't understand.
***
Reducing bomb damage was needed, but nerfing archer who already are worthless in Dm, yes, that stinks. Per EE, EE fire was already overpowered in regular match, this just makes it 10 times worse... a fire and an earth will crush an archer and sword with absurd ease. So here again, order players are screwed in a whole setup (regular match versus EE), they have no hope out of the box of taking center, and are forced to turtle, be behind economically etc.

The increased healing for EE was also ridiculous... I have watched and been in multiple matches were all the EE has to do is mass that fire _ earth charrog thing, and attack with them all... and just send water units to heal them... they have a ton of health, and are almost impossible to kill since the healing is so easy and effective.

I have had two CA, magikill, poison, electric wall, and wings all hitting a group of them, and not a single one died...
***
Here is the thing WYZ, this debate could easily be settled. The creators of the game could easily create a tracking algorithm that would show if the game is balanced by tracking matches and adjusting for basic variables. I don't think it is at all necessary, I think the evidence is ridiculously clear (toplist, and the effect of people gaining or dropping premium on their rankings in those toplist, and a quick perusal of the replay list for a number of days), and the overall dropping number of players and why they quit shows it. I know a ton of the players who quit. Why they quit? Order isn't a viable empire. They get tired of suddenly getting crushed by people they easily beat in OvO. They get tired of order nerfs and other empire buffs, when order is barely holding place in the toplists...They get tired of watching the toplist fill up with mediocre players who merely mine the many advantages premiums get.

Now, I don't even mind that so much, the game makers deserve to make money. I wish they would monetize the game differently, but they know the market. People will pay to win. but don't be surprised when people stop being willing to be beat by less skilled people merely because those people have cash. They will take their game playing elsewhere... indeed, tons of players already have.

Quote from sorrowandsadness

The creators of the game could easily create a tracking algorithm that would show if the game is balanced by tracking matches and adjusting for basic variables.

Just no
http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2014/4/18/game-balance-and-yomi.html