Obama cut the deficit by 20%. I'm not sure what you guys are criticizing him for.

Bush promised in 2007 that his plan would balance the budget by now, in 2012. Instead he added trillions to the debt and put us in two wars. So why is Obama at fault? Unlike most candidates who promise to balance the budget, he only promised to reduce the deficit by 50%, and he got 20% of the way there.

How does that make you think "Obama's no good, let's try another republican!", especially when Romney's economic plan has been determined to be mathematically impossible?

As a Canadian, I literally can't see why anyone would vote Romney. He doesn't care for the US one bit. He just wants the status as President (and to get rid of abortion/porn etc), and he's lying out of his ass with everything he says to try and get people to like him.

so...this is a debate...about a debate ?:confused:

Quote from THE RISER

so...this is a debate...about a debate ?:confused:

..yes. Do you have anything to contribute?

I can only say I agree. Romney's a moron and Obama is, at the very least, a good representative of America. He's done well as President.
But, on topic, he didn't actually do very well in the debate. To sum up Romney's debating tactic, I think this quote is fitting;

"The Republicans are unabashed in their discussion of their ability to use the television medium.
"You can say anything you want during a debate and 80 million people hear it,'' observed Peter Teeley, press secretary to Vice President Bush. If reporters then document that a candidate spoke untruthfully, ''so what?''
''Maybe 200 people read it or 2,000 or 20,000,'' he said.
-Michealmoore.coim

"Romney's a moron" is not a political stance.

Explain your thought processes in a way that the other side can at least understand where you're coming from, otherwise there's zero chance for discussion and you're wasting everyone's time.

I like Scott Adams' take on it. Mitt Romney is obviously saying whatever it takes to get elected, hence the flip-flopping. So he's a pragmatist. Once he gets elected he probably won't drive America over the fiscal cliff on purpose - he'll make decisions which are relatively practical. He understands that elections aren't about policy because 99% of people* are too stupid to understand the complexities of the situation.

I still hate the man as much as I can hate anyone who I've never met.

*Not specifically a dig at Americans

Let me go further then;
Romney doesn't have the intellect, nor the precise skills required to run a country. He's not a president.
He might be a nice guy, but so far he's just embarrassed himself again and again, desperately trying to rake in the votes from every possible side, being both for and against almost every political issue debated between Republicans and Democrats.

Quote from Exilement

How does that make you think "Obama's no good, let's try another republican!", especially when Romney's economic plan has been determined to be mathematically impossible?

As I said, I don't know much about them, I was tentative about posting at all. My only source of info on the US has been from videos of political commentators on youtube that I watch. I got the impression that Obama is somewhat unreliable and a liar, and doesn't have the backbone to follow through on tough decisions, and Romney doesn't know where he stands on anything:
http://obamalies.net/list-of-lies
As far as I'm aware, neither Obama or Romney propose good plans for the economy. Most economists agree that the GDP should be 20%~ spending and taxation to balance the budget. Romney's trying to cut spending too much, and Obama too little. However, I'd much rather put my trust in someone who's worked in private industry and the market to fix an economy than someone who hasn't.

Its all about OBAMA!!

Quote from Automaton

http://obamalies.net/list-of-lies

Dude, come on. What you've just done here is the equivalent of saying the earth is 6,000 years old, then link me to www.answersingenesis.org as supporting proof.

That website has the "you didn't build that" thing on their front page. Obama was specifically talking about infrastructure, the internet, highways, etc. that the government builds, using federal funding, as a way to explain how an economy only works effectively if we pool our resources and work together. Immediately after that speech the GOP started saying "Obama thinks business owners didn't build their businesses!", and they were widely criticized by every major media outlet that doesn't have a severe right-wing bias.

Quote from Automaton

As far as I'm aware, neither Obama or Romney propose good plans for the economy. Most economists agree that the GDP should be 20%~ spending and taxation to balance the budget.

The thing to focus on is what the government is spending money on, not how much they're spending. We're still recovering from a recession, we were losing 400,000 jobs a month when Obama took office, and now unemployment is lower than when he was inaugurated. Spending cuts should only be a priority once the economy stabilizes, which it hasn't done yet -- until then spending is the smart thing to do.

Quote from Automaton

Romney's trying to cut spending too much, and Obama too little. However, I'd much rather put my trust in someone who's worked in private industry and the market to fix an economy than someone who hasn't.

You should really read into Bain capital's history and how they finance their corporate take-overs. Or what private equity firms do in general. None of the tactics necessary to generate profits in that sort of industry are applicable to managing the largest economy in the history of earth.

Quote from Exilement

Dude, come on. What you've just done here is the equivalent of saying the earth is 6,000 years old, then link me to www.answersingenesis.org as supporting proof.

That website has the "you didn't build that" thing on their front page. Obama was specifically talking about infrastructure, the internet, highways, etc. that the government builds, using federal funding, as a way to explain how an economy only works effectively if we pool our resources and work together. Immediately after that speech the GOP started saying "Obama thinks business owners didn't build their businesses!", and they were widely criticized by every major media outlet that doesn't have a severe right-wing bias.

Fair enough. I just googled "Obama lies", because to find the actual sources for my belief that he has fallen back on promises and proven to be unreliable would require me to sift through a couple of hundred youtube videos from this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/user/theamazingatheist

And note that he's very anti-republican (just look at some of his video titles). I can't really remember any sort of policies that relates to this, but at the time of hearing various ones I checked out the news sources and they seemed pretty reliable. Only one I can really think of is the signing of the NDAA which allows the detainment of US citizens without trial. Here's the video where I first discovered this, from the person I linked above (it's only 5 minutes long if you feel like watching it)



Perhaps I should research more before forming opinions, then again it's not as if it's a strong opinion that I hold, anyway. If someone were to tell me everything that TJ has said about Obama is wrong, I wouldn't have any trouble believing them.

The thing to focus on is what the government is spending money on, not how much they're spending. We're still recovering from a recession, we were losing 400,000 jobs a month when Obama took office, and now unemployment is lower than when he was inaugurated. Spending cuts should only be a priority once the economy stabilizes, which it hasn't done yet -- until then spending is the smart thing to do.

Really? I'd always thought that tax cuts, NOT increased spending was a more stable way out of a recession. Then again I've pretty much been listening solely to Milton Friedman lately. For example tax cuts in the 1919 recession helped the economy to stabalise. This all comes down to a separate debate though, doesn't it? The free market vs the regulated one.

You should really read into Bain capital's history and how they finance their corporate take-overs. Or what private equity firms do in general. None of the tactics necessary to generate profits in that sort of industry are applicable to managing the largest economy in the history of earth.

Fair enough, point taken.

The Economist's poll of economists rates Obama as being considerably better managing the economy than Romney would be.
Edit: Found the article: http://www.economist.com/node/21564175

Why am I always wrong in debates lately?

Quote from Automaton

Really? I'd always thought that tax cuts, NOT increased spending was a more stable way out of a recession.

Think about what tax cuts accomplish. It puts cash in the hands of taxpayers, so they can put that money back into the economy. Since a recession is a slowdown of economic activity, tax cuts can help in a recession, but they're not always the best choice. What if you give a millionaire a tax break? They'll likely save that money instead of spending it in the free market, diminishing the net effect of the tax cut.

Spending on social programs accomplish the same thing, except they typically focus on people who need that money. If you give the poor food stamps, they'll go out and use them. That money almost immediately gets re-invested into the economy, and in that example there's about a 170% return on every dollar invested into nutritional assistance. Federally funded construction programs can create jobs and (ideally) improve infrastructure.

That's essentially the fiscal argument between democrats and republicans. Both have merits but it really depends on how effectively they're implemented.