I know there aren't a lot of you out there, and I feel more people browse through here in search of counter-methods against chaos strategies, but nevertheless; I will take the time to read through each post here and answer your questions regarding the chaos empire the best I can. Sometimes I may even be able to provide replays. If you are looking for some new ideas or possible mid game strategies, I'm also willing to test them out. My code is down below in my signature, and you're more then welcome to message me in SE and I'll respond as swiftly as I can.

Before anyone accuses me of only shining the spotlight back on myself after accomplishing top rank on the leadership boards, this has nothing to do with that. Before I was even in the top 50 players, I had come in searching for new ideas and tactics to try and use. The chaos empire requires a lot of control with each unit, and a lot of quick decisions. The start game is the single most important part to any match, and as an early chaos player I had a very hard time with being able to grasp a solid direction to control the field, and even struggled defending my base as early as only a minute into a game. There are very few helpful threads here, and the only real insight I had to any higher level player was watching CC2 on YouTube against his pal MiamiBigAL. Everything else, I had to figure out for myself through trial and error, mostly error. I have the biggest number of losses of any player in the top 10, and second in the top 20 next to VanLang. I do not count these as wasted games, or even scars from attempts of moving up; in every game, I took a piece to reflect on to change my game. I learned how to become adaptive, how to read players, and most importantly, how to counter.

The biggest problem was not understanding my opponent, but understanding what you're able to do and prevent it.

So in this thread I want analyze all points of chaos game. If you have a question on a unit, ask it. A question about how to deal with giants, ask em (although enough's out there in general discussion). But most importantly, if you want the response and guidance of a player who has games and experience under his belt; you got it.

Ask away. And if you wish to contribute to a question asked by someone else, by all means go for it. I could still learn a thing or two from you guys. ;)

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REPLAY DATA:

OUTDATED
Replay by Galeforce using cats to attack: http://pastebin.com/xy3RzWrU (02:11)
Replay by WyzDM countering sword-archer on castle: http://tny.cz/8248e6b5 (01:49)
Replay by WyzDM using cats/bombers to attack: http://tny.cz/bc8e3acd (02:26)
Replay by WyzDM using cats/bombers to defeat early swordwrath mass: http://tny.cz/3cbe2e74
Replay by WyzDM using cats/miners for defending: http://tny.cz/84f85c9e WARNING: May freeze at end. (01:26)
Replay by WyzDM fighting for center tower on castle: http://tny.cz/05e63cc8 (05:25)
Replay by WyzDM harassing miners with cats/ghost against castle archer: http://tny.cz/3f6cc69e (03:39)
Replay by WyzDM vs. CaptainCorps2 (Chaos vs Chaos): http://tny.cz/3625b2d2 (06:19)

WORKS

Examples:
Replay by WyzDM using cats/bombers on castle: http://tny.cz/1bf1c62c
Replay by WyzDM versus super turtle (fattycow): http://tny.cz/ed501ffd
Replay by WyzDM versus early giant: http://tny.cz/d2ed3938
Replay by WyzDM using cats/miners to anti short stage rush: http://tny.cz/f978b82a
Replay by WyzDM using Marrowki against giants: http://tny.cz/0fe0fdcf
Replay by WyzDM on Halloween: http://tny.cz/9e3cb726

Matches:
WyzDM versus ZenithxDaemonic: http://tny.cz/694eb64c
WyzDM versus Crimshock: http://tny.cz/92579164
WyzDM versus FattyGoat: http://tny.cz/30e28079
WyzDM versus SomeFatGuy1 (Chaos vs Chaos): http://tny.cz/b35c7ef4
Galeforce versus ZenithxDaemonic (Daemonic wins): http://tny.cz/692822a6
WyzDM versus ChaoticEvil: http://tny.cz/23f335b5
WyzDM versus BuddyLucky2: http://tny.cz/e46feb48

Congratulations on getting and holding top spot.

Right, now down to business :).

What tips can you offer to improve my early game macro with crawlers?

Currently, I start 2 miners, 2 crawlers and the third crawler with the 150 from the miners (just as second crawler pops) I think this the conventional start after the current patch.
Objectives; secure tower, then hit his economy.
If he's sending swords, I keep doing crawlers until I secure tower - with a miner as cash allows.

But I find my crawlers often die to his swords due to my micro not being good enough. Thats what I know I need to work on, and hence the question I asked.
Against swords, I need better micro.
Against sword&archer I think its better to use bombs, in addition to the early crawlers - any better plan than fall back my crawlers untill I built 2-3 bombers?

Quote from uberman

What tips can you offer to improve my early game macro with crawlers?

Currently, I start 2 miners, 2 crawlers and the third crawler with the 150 from the miners (just as second crawler pops) I think this the conventional start after the current patch.
Objectives; secure tower, then hit his economy.
If he's sending swords, I keep doing crawlers until I secure tower - with a miner as cash allows.

But I find my crawlers often die to his swords due to my micro not being good enough. Thats what I know I need to work on, and hence the question I asked.
Against swords, I need better micro.
Against sword&archer I think its better to use bombs, in addition to the early crawlers - any better plan than fall back my crawlers untill I built 2-3 bombers?

You never want to go bombs unless he's able to mass swordwrath equal or greater to your crawlers. Remember, bombers are not reusable units and sending them out too early in the game will affect your economy severely. They are also from the same tree as cats, and it's more important to hold a larger number of cats before resorting to retreat with bombers.

Remember, while making cats, any extra gold you should put to something outside of that tree; eventually you will be able to make miners and cats. Since you have more miners than your opponent (assuming is he swordwrath massing), if he chargers your base you can have the miners and cats retaliate, and that number together will force him to retreat. If you lose a miner, don't worry, if you started with four you're still better economically (and if he went archer-swordwrath, it's an even greater advantage from an economic standpoint).

Remember, the trick with cats is not to directly engage early in the game with his swordwrath. Cats are speedy, and perfect units for hits and runs. While continuing to mass cats (or bombers if you see him still building units) make sure you select ALL of your cat units to be running to his base, attack a miner, force them to either retreat or attack (putting them off of collecting gold) and when his army catches up to you, run back to the center. Keep doing this until you're able to make more powerful units: deads,juggers or wingdoms. At least one of any of those should force him to retreat, granting you center for now.

Just remember not to turn to bombers out of panic. Those types of macros will affect your mid-game economy and army very seriously.

Thanks for the response.

Two question;
1. If he starts sword and archer, what should my response be?
Because his units construct at the same time, he reaches the tower with sword and archer before my second crawler does.
I would normally retreat. Prior to your response, I would have cancelled the third crawler, and built 2-3 bombs to kill his archer (with my 2 crawlers and 2-3 bombs).
You are suggesting to stick with crawlers, so attack his archer with the 3 crawlers while trying to build more - right?

2. Can you put up a replay of you using chaos to kill giants in the OP? I think you said you have you vs Fatty... in a 20minute epic - culminating in a chaos giant vs e-gaint battle. If thats currupted, maybe record the next time you end up fighting giants. It would be useful for we chaos players to see how to deal with e-giants, once they are up.
I know 'its all about micro' but it would be good to see in being done well.

Thanks for your patience with the noobie questions.

Quote from uberman

1. If he starts sword and archer, what should my response be?
Because his units construct at the same time, he reaches the tower with sword and archer before my second crawler does.
I would normally retreat. Prior to your response, I would have cancelled the third crawler, and built 2-3 bombs to kill his archer (with my 2 crawlers and 2-3 bombs).
You are suggesting to stick with crawlers, so attack his archer with the 3 crawlers while trying to build more - right?

Take a look at the replay from Galeforce, he essentially captures the idea of how to anti.

Quote from uberman

2. Can you put up a replay of you using chaos to kill giants in the OP? I think you said you have you vs Fatty... in a 20minute epic - culminating in a chaos giant vs e-gaint battle. If thats currupted, maybe record the next time you end up fighting giants. It would be useful for we chaos players to see how to deal with e-giants, once they are up.
I know 'its all about micro' but it would be good to see in being done well.

I was going to include it but after watching it I realized it was out of sync; my wingdoms were coming a full second BEFORE my ghost to get clobbered, and then I randomly started sending my own giants to his base. If I manage to get a better replay, I'll put it here.

The goal is not let your opponent have so much time, but it was Green Hills...

With big stages, pressure with some early units but if he's holding out, you'll be forced to go giants eventually. Holding that tower is equally important.

Wow, just awsome, well played!
I watched the replay above where you wipe out his swords mass with bombs. Impressive, and excellently micro'd. I know it can be done in theory, nice to see it done in fact.
(I think its the one called 'using cats and bombers to attack')

I am guessing you are using the new hot-keys to switch between controling the crawlers and bombers?

Take a look at the replay from Galeforce, he essentially captures the idea of how to anti.

He starts off by not advancing the first crawler to the tower, and not advancing till he has 3 crawlers (cats), (not sure if its a staged event, where he knows its a sword archer incoming, or if thats his normal starting move). I normally used to advance the first crawler to claim the tower, but if he goes archer when I am doing that, its too easy to take an arrow or two before retreating to regroup with the new crawlers(because of being distracted doing early miners and units).
I have started to go half way between these two options, and find it easier. When I have 2 crawlers, I advance them both to claim tower, while the third one arrives, then attack miners if there is no resistance and he has no castle archer, or retreat to group all crawlers if there are units coming up. This avoids my first crawler getting into trouble while I am distracted doing the early miners/units, but also lets me both own the tower and launch a first raid on miners early, so as to either subdue his eco, or force him to build a castle archer before his eco can really suport it (which slows down his early eco development).

I know in an ideal case I would claim the tower with the first crawler, for the extra few seconds of ownership and pull back if he brings up units - but its so important not to get the early crawlers damaged. Also, if he went sword and archer, he has advanced so we fight near my miners, which lets me put miners on his sword while I put my (3) cats on his archer.
BTW, I love the hot-keys for selecting units, seems more reliable than double click; ctrl-2 (crawlers) click to attack archer, ctrl-1 (miners) click to attack sword.

There is another key point in fighting sword and archer at my base rather than the tower - which has only just become apparent to me. At my base, he's almost always going to put his sword on my miners while his archer attacks them from further back (thats why he's at my base with sword and archer!), meaning I can fight the sword with miners but more important, the sword not protecting his archer. So my cats can harass his archer, without his sword killing the cats. Whereas, if fighting at the tower, he will put his sword on my cats, and the sword and archer will probably kill most or all of the cats before the archer dies, cats cant hit and run against the archer because of his range. This was why I was getting into trouble; crawlers can only beat sword and archer by splitting up sword and archer so they can safely kill (or chase off) the archer.

Its not perfectly efficient, but it seems to match my level of micro skills at the moment. It allows me to counter what was beating me before (sword and archer start by order, always seemed to have me in trouble).
Thanks for putting up that replay.

Quote from uberman

I watched the replay above where you wipe out his swords mass with bombs. Impressive, and excellently micro'd. I know it can be done in theory, nice to see it done in fact.
(I think its the one called 'using cats and bombers to attack')

I am guessing you are using the new hot-keys to switch between controlling the crawlers and bombers?

I'm still not fully adjusted, and in serious games do a lot of things with my mouse. The trick is to have control over which unit is more valuable/imperative to eliminating enemy units be in constant control. If you noticed, I let go of my cats, just told them to attack then sent the bombers to the nice clump.

Quote from uberman

He starts off by not advancing the first crawler to the tower, and not advancing till he has 3 crawlers (cats), (not sure if its a staged event, where he knows its a sword archer incoming, or if that's his normal starting move). I normally used to advance the first crawler to claim the tower, but if he goes archer when I am doing that, its too easy to take an arrow or two before retreating to regroup with the new crawlers(because of being distracted doing early miners and units).
I have started to go half way between these two options, and find it easier. When I have 2 crawlers, I advance them both to claim tower, while the third one arrives, then attack miners if there is no resistance and he has no castle archer, or retreat to group all crawlers if there are units coming up. This avoids my first crawler getting into trouble while I am distracted doing the early miners/units, but also lets me both own the tower and launch a first raid on miners early, so as to either subdue his eco, or force him to build a castle archer before his eco can really support it (which slows down his early eco development).

This is something that just takes practice.

Quote from uberman

There is another key point in fighting sword and archer at my base rather than the tower - which has only just become apparent to me. At my base, he's almost always going to put his sword on my miners while his archer attacks them from further back (thats why he's at my base with sword and archer!), meaning I can fight the sword with miners but more important, the sword not protecting his archer. So my cats can harass his archer, without his sword killing the cats. Whereas, if fighting at the tower, he will put his sword on my cats, and the sword and archer will probably kill most or all of the cats before the archer dies, cats cant hit and run against the archer because of his range. This was why I was getting into trouble; crawlers can only beat sword and archer by splitting up sword and archer so they can safely kill (or chase off) the archer.

Its not perfectly efficient, but it seems to match my level of micro skills at the moment. It allows me to counter what was beating me before (sword and archer start by order, always seemed to have me in trouble).
Thanks for putting up that replay.

Try selecting the cat that's in the most trouble or under attack. Just have it run back and if they chase, cats will do damage (because they're faster) and you can use your miners. Or, what happens more often, they're forced to switch to another cat, and you repeat the process (be sure to bring that other cat back in the fight with the quickly restored health).

Glad this is helping you out.

How would chaos users counter spearton rush (the one where they mass speartons and charge at statue)and how do they counter allow mass?

Quote from DragonFrost

How would chaos users counter spearton rush (the one where they mass speartons and charge at statue)and how do they counter allow mass?

An early spearton means their economy is weak. The solution would be to use the cats speed and harass the economy. If the spearton ignores the threat at his base and proceeds to charge the chaos player's base, the cats will to more damage to the statue than the spearton will.


Early spearton in any advanced play with any empire is a doomed plan.

Read the bracketed... I did that so you wouldn't Misunderstand but you still did :/
What I meant: they turtle (sometimes) and mass speartons. Once they have a bunch, they charge at statue and destroy it ASAP.

Quote from DragonFrost

Read the bracketed... I did that so you wouldn't Misunderstand but you still did :/
What I meant: they turtle (sometimes) and mass speartons. Once they have a bunch, they charge at statue and destroy it ASAP.

If they're going to turtle, IMMEDIATELY get ghost spawn 2 to secure having the center tower. From there, you can do a lot of things. I tend to get wingdoms and attack the statue, using my ghost a shield. He'll be forced to bring his units out. You can also keep pressuring with juggers and keep a back up unit in place (giant or medusa). You can also use cats to charge behind the ghost, clearing any miners the ghost isn't on. Assuming he has castle archers, they'll be busy on the ghost, and by the time he turns his attention to cats it will be too late (get cat resources as well).

Quote from WyzDM

If they're going to turtle, IMMEDIATELY get ghost spawn 2 to secure having the center tower. From there, you can do a lot of things. I tend to get wingdoms and attack the statue, using my ghost a shield. He'll be forced to bring his units out. You can also keep pressuring with juggers and keep a back up unit in place (giant or medusa). You can also use cats to charge behind the ghost, clearing any miners the ghost isn't on. Assuming he has castle archers, they'll be busy on the ghost, and by the time he turns his attention to cats it will be too late (get cat resources as well).

So, he's going to get walls, I'm assuming castle archer, and a fuck load of speartons. You're brillant idea is to get 2600 + 1200, not including the giant upgrades, while also getting wingadons, while he's massing speartons (which will most likely be done a long time before you are) and then just sit there until he charges out.


Fr0st, get castle dead 3 (yes, 3), 3-5 Marrowkai, about 10 bombers, and research hell fists. Also get the chaos tower if you have enough resources too. That should be more than enough.

Quote from Tecness2

So, he's going to get walls, I'm assuming castle archer, and a fuck load of speartons. You're brillant idea is to get 2600 + 1200, not including the giant upgrades, while also getting wingadons, while he's massing speartons (which will most likely be done a long time before you are) and then just sit there until he charges out.


Fr0st, get castle dead 3 (yes, 3), 3-5 Marrowkai, about 10 bombers, and research hell fists. Also get the chaos tower if you have enough resources too. That should be more than enough.

You're planning a defense as chaos, which is absurd. Chaos defense game is useless without walls and multi-damaging castle archers. The giant I would use as a meat-shield. Also, he would have to get miner walls and a castle archer early if he didn't want any pressure from cats. This would really set back his economy.

You never want to go on the defensive, especially if you have control of the tower and he's limiting his gold intake to the first row. I have played against these kind of strategies, and as long as I'm in their base they'll never have a chance to get to mine.

ok. Another question: What's a good start against someone who masses swords?

Check the replays for an example, but you want to keep making cats the best you can. If he gets 4-5, go bombers, and to keep his army off your base, use the cat's speed to assault theirs first. If he targets your base, you have the tower, so use the gold/your economic advantage (he blew it on swordwrath) to make bombers in the base, and when you get at least 3-4 (insta kill is 5) send em out with your returned cats.