Quote from 300noob

-.- now ya just being "rock head"
every single debate ya have is biased on chaos favour.
i say just reduce the cost of the turret like cost 150 gold to build, done...the research cost as much as wall, done.

Yes, every single debate I have is in chaos favour, because I am a chaos player - why would I be debating against chaos favour? I dont claim to be right all the time every time (I am too long in the tooth to believe 'I' am so special and clever that 'I' am always right - a view point life should have taught any of us who have managed to live for more than 2 decades).
But so what?...
If the content of my argument is flawed, point out why its flawed rather than point out that I am in favour of chaos - I know I argue in favour of chaos, obviously I do. The OP points to the weakness of the turret and I am joining in a thread on the weakness so its not a shocker that I talk of the weakness....

Oh, I almost forgot - you cant fault my argument that chaos should be at least as strong as order, so you have to distract from the validity of the argument to criticise me rather than my argument

Quote from uberman

I have only once met a player who used a turrent - and it was Crazy Jay!
The turret is so seldom used because its so crap compared to its cost.
The wall is so heavily used because it stops dead the advance, and can be incredible when you have say a shit-load of archers, or a giant/giants, or a mage behind it.
The observed fact; walls are used a lot, turrets are not used at all by most players.
The inevitable conclusion; the turret is simply not worth the cost.

Combined with the really weak castle dead, chaos has very little in terms of defence options.
Castle archer > castle dead.
Walls > turrets.

Needs balancing, to be honest.

come to think of it, castle dead is equally pathetic to the turret, TRUE castle dead has poison, but poison is not gonna help an invading spearton attack, splash damage is. the fact that they dont have splash poison or atleast splash for that matter makes them obsolete towards the castle archer

Which is why this way, castle archers suck against MASS SWORDS. Assuming the chaos fighter is a noob who never gets bombers and eclipsors, then they are screwed. Turrets will fall, castle deads with fail, statue will fall.

Quote from kingkickass2013

come to think of it, castle dead is equally pathetic to the turret, TRUE castle dead has poison, but poison is not gonna help an invading spearton attack, splash damage is. the fact that they dont have splash poison or atleast splash for that matter makes them obsolete towards the castle archer

Yes! exactly.
Poison is nice against a single sword on a long map without a meric, its almost certain death. But who cares if one sword is doomed to die in a minute or so while he and his six mates rage away on my statue or miners or crawlers ....

Quote from kingkickass2013

come to think of it, castle dead is equally pathetic to the turret, TRUE castle dead has poison, but poison is not gonna help an invading spearton attack, splash damage is. the fact that they dont have splash poison or atleast splash for that matter makes them obsolete towards the castle archer

Quote from uberman

Yes! exactly.
Poison is nice against a single sword on a long map without a meric, its almost certain death. But who cares if one sword is doomed to die in a minute or so while he and his six mates rage away on my statue or miners or crawlers ....

The problem with this argument is that in actuality, the castle archer is also useless.


The castle archer is superior to the castle dead, there's no denying that.
BUT if someone is forced to make a castle archer, they are then in a losing situation. Sure, it takes longer to take them out (compared to if they had just a dead), but they're in a losing situation.
Likewise, a Chaos player forced to build a castle dead is in the same predicament.

This sounds pretty balanced to me.


The fact of the matter remains is that in actuality, the:

1. Castle Archer/Dead
2. Turret/wall

Have little implications in winning strategy. Turret is just ...even more useless than the wall.

Quote from PsychoticCheez

The problem with this argument is that in actuality, the castle archer is also useless.


The castle archer is superior to the castle dead, there's no denying that.
BUT if someone is forced to make a castle archer, they are then in a losing situation. Sure, it takes longer to take them out (compared to if they had just a dead), but they're in a losing situation.
Likewise, a Chaos player forced to build a castle dead is in the same predicament.

This sounds pretty balanced to me.


The fact of the matter remains is that in actuality, the:

1. Castle Archer/Dead
2. Turret/wall

Have little implications in winning strategy. Turret is just ...even more useless than the wall.

You make a good point; yes I will try force the enemy to build a caslt archer pressuring his miners with crawlers, but castle archer is not useless - once he builds it, my crawlers are totally ineffective against his economy - which is a very useful 'buying some time' function.
Its only a disater to him if I force him to do it too early, before he can afford it, but once he has a decent income, buying a single castle archer isnt going to cost him the game.

As an order player, buying a castle archer is full protection against both crawlers and bombers, my only starting options. So buying a castle archer stops chaos harassing the order economy, and thus pays back the investment.
As chaos, buying castle dead is a pathetic defence against a few swords (as the damage is so little, no splash damage and poison wont kill before garrison other than on the longesr map). So buying castle dead does not stop his swords attacking the economy, and so doesnt pay back the investment in a similar way.

I haven't played Chaos at all, so forgive me if this is a noobish question, but does not having a wall-like defense mechanism make it harder to defend against spearton rushes?

Quote from jli

I haven't played Chaos at all, so forgive me if this is a noobish question, but does not having a wall-like defense mechanism make it harder to defend against spearton rushes?

Yes.
If he rushes, and you have walls up, it slows him down - this gives you more time to do what ever you are doing to counter - be it more time to smash down his statue or more time to kill his attacking units.
(I assume here were talking about rushing with a group to take your statue, rather than an early spearton)

Quote from uberman

Yes.
If he rushes, and you have walls up, it slows him down - this gives you more time to do what ever you are doing to counter - be it more time to smash down his statue or more time to kill his attacking units.
(I assume here were talking about rushing with a group to take your statue, rather than an early spearton)

Yeah, I was talking about spearton mass (which a ton of players do for some reason).
Seems to be a disadvantage then. Does Chaos have anything it can do to counter it? Does Medusa's venom flux help?

Quote from jli

Yeah, I was talking about spearton mass (which a ton of players do for some reason).
Seems to be a disadvantage then. Does Chaos have anything it can do to counter it? Does Medusa's venom flux help?

Chaos has some options.
Chaos giants can stun 3 speartons each, and juggers with charge can also stun. Stunned speartons dont do much damage :)

Medusa's venom flux isnt that useful, if used alone, as your statue will fall long before the poison kills the speartons. Its more useful if used as part of a defence plan to kill his army, since evry little helps and the faster you kill all his units, the less statue damage taken.

Quote from uberman

Chaos has some options.
Chaos giants can stun 3 speartons each, and juggers with charge can also stun. Stunned speartons dont do much damage :)

Medusa's venom flux isnt that useful, if used alone, as your statue will fall long before the poison kills the speartons. Its more useful if used as part of a defence plan to kill his army, since evry little helps and the faster you kill all his units, the less statue damage taken.

it's a cool way to stop spearton massers, i used to be saved in a battle against a spearton rusher....thanks to swordwraths, few speartons to weaken them (not much) and miners to finish them off. it's funny when 16 miners did the job that 12 swordwraths and 6 speartons couldn't do, killing 27 speartons...:D

Quote from uberman

You make a good point; yes I will try force the enemy to build a caslt archer pressuring his miners with crawlers, but castle archer is not useless - once he builds it, my crawlers are totally ineffective against his economy - which is a very useful 'buying some time' function.
Its only a disater to him if I force him to do it too early, before he can afford it, but once he has a decent income, buying a single castle archer isnt going to cost him the game.

As an order player, buying a castle archer is full protection against both crawlers and bombers, my only starting options. So buying a castle archer stops chaos harassing the order economy, and thus pays back the investment.

Chaos has the ability to churn out both military and the ocasional miner in the early game.
Order doesn't have this luxury due to more expensive units.

If you're a Chaos player that's beaten back an Order player's troops, then you have both a military advantage and an economic advantage.

It's full protection against crawlers and bombers, but the result is the same, just longer.

Quote from 300noob

it's a cool way to stop spearton massers, i used to be saved in a battle against a spearton rusher....thanks to swordwraths, few speartons to weaken them (not much) and miners to finish them off. it's funny when 16 miners did the job that 12 swordwraths and 6 speartons couldn't do, killing 27 speartons...:D

Did you even learn maths?27x3=81 guess your didn't learn maths

It was an estimation... Also, can someone test how many bombers to kill a spearton? Because then just get that many bombers... When they group at your statue, BOOM.

Its a lot of bombers, about 14 (speaking from memory) to kill speartons.