Alright, so at this point it is fairly well established that swords w/ rage dominate on all maps except Swamp/Halloween/Castle. And, based on all the rage (including my own at times), operation bomb & crawl is quite formidable against Order's early game.

After some thought, I figured that an archer buff would be the best way to resolve both of these issues. Perhaps a little more damage, or speed, or less cost, or slightly faster firing rate. This would give archers a place in the early stages of most Order-Order matches as well as help to counter Chaos's bombers.

So, go vote on the poll now: Do you think an archer buff would be sensible thing to do?

No, because even though I agree rage is OP, making the archer OP is fine in order vs order, but will rule out early chaos altogether.

I dont agree bombs and crawlers are OP vs swords - on a short map, swords with or without rage PWN crawlers and bombs. As I detailed its the construction time (swords and crawlers being equal) and the price of crawler buffs being so much more than rage.

I also think swords WHEN RUSHING do PWN on a short map more than a long map, since the enemy has less time to prepare and there is less time for units to arrive after being spawned.

I think, a better balance is to make rage less powerful, (to balance vs archers) and make crawler buffs cheaper to buy and/or faster to load to balance swords with rage vs crawlers. This will also make bombers a less attractive option for the chaos player if crawlers are better. Since for chaos its either crawlers or bombers eary on, and swds with rage PWN crawlers, and crawler buffs are so expensive and slow that they are unavailable early game - What option other than bombs does chaos have? NONE therefore mass bombs is the current only option vs swords

Hi reader,

If it was realistic, Archidons would kill anyone in 1 hit.

.:Invincitron:.

Quote from uberman

No, because even though I agree rage is OP, making the archer OP is fine in order vs order, but will rule out early chaos altogether.

I dont agree bombs and crawlers are OP vs swords - on a short map, swords with or without rage PWN crawlers and bombs. As I detailed its the construction time (swords and crawlers being equal) and the price of crawler buffs being so much more than rage.

I also think swords WHEN RUSHING do PWN on a short map more than a long map, since the enemy has less time to prepare and there is less time for units to arrive after being spawned.

I think, a better balance is to make rage less powerful, (to balance vs archers) and make crawler buffs cheaper to buy and/or faster to load to balance swords with rage vs crawlers. This will also make bombers a less attractive option for the chaos player if crawlers are better. Since for chaos its either crawlers or bombers eary on, and swds with rage PWN crawlers, and crawler buffs are so expensive and slow that they are unavailable early game - What option other than bombs does chaos have? NONE therefore mass bombs is the current only option vs swords

While this is true, mass bombs has the potential to utterly destroy any sword mass. You say that on a short map, swords w/ or w/o pwn bomb & crawl. I'm not sure sure about this. While I'll agree that mass swords pwn miners on short maps, bombs pack quite a punch if the Order player doesn't micro just right, and crawlers can finish off low-HP swords.

Quote from Invincitron

Hi reader,

If it was realistic, Archidons would kill anyone in 1 hit.

.:Invincitron:.

Come on man, we're trying to have a discussion here.

Well of course I would "want" a buff (biased opinion ^.^) but that doesn't mean I'm going to get it. I mean, order just got a high buff (cheaper swords and archidons) but swords got a higher benefit so it would seem archidons are now UP. Basically, you could either nerf them back to 150 and 350, or nerf the swords (which chaos will be happy about ^.^) or buff the archidons (chaos NOT HAPPY AT ALL) xD

Quote from Invincitron

Hi reader,

If it was realistic, Archidons would kill anyone in 1 hit.

.:Invincitron:.

in REALITY a bow fired arrow (assuming medieval bows and wooden arrows with steel tips, not compound modern bows) bounces off armour.
Why was King Harold shot in the eye? Same as all the French as Agincourt - its the only place a bow can harm a fully armoured man.

In reality, a blow from a jugger's axe would be pretty fatal too.... And in reality, your magikill wouldnt be able to cast any spells :)

Lets conceed, its a reality, but not as we know it :)

Archers needs a buff?
Plays no man lands insane and pwn the giant with a single archidon.
Yep a buff would be nice

Archers are good like they are. If you're pointing to sword mass with rage can easily kill archers then that's cool. You can always counter them i different ways. Sword mass with rage is the counter to archers and although buffing archers would been that swords with rage mass needs to find another counter. I think archers are totally fine.

Quote from THEFORCE

Archers are good like they are. If you're pointing to sword mass with rage can easily kill archers then that's cool. You can always counter them i different ways. Sword mass with rage is the counter to archers and although buffing archers would been that swords with rage mass needs to find another counter. I think archers are totally fine.

Ok, but the thing is, sword mass with rage DOMINATES. If I see a single archer for the first three minutes of any med/large map game, I'd be surprised.
Where's the fun in spamming one type of unit?

Quote from jli

Ok, but the thing is, sword mass with rage DOMINATES. If I see a single archer for the first three minutes of any med/large map game, I'd be surprised.
Where's the fun in spamming one type of unit?

True. But every strategy has a counter. Did you see how spearton rush was invented by getting early spearton and attacking enemy miners? The same thing could happen with swordwraths. Every strategy dominated for a while then it faded a little bit.

Quote from THEFORCE

True. But every strategy has a counter. Did you see how spearton rush was invented by getting early spearton and attacking enemy miners? The same thing could happen with swordwraths. Every strategy dominated for a while then it faded a little bit.

Yeah, but this strategy shows no signs of fading, even more so with the recent sword buff. IMO they should have only buffed the archer cost and left the sword cost as it was (150g).

Yep, but the creators wanted swords to be 25 gold more then a crawler.
Speaking of, swords are now more easy to pwn speartons.
Being cheaper and having rage.

I thought I'd never say this, because I love them, but it's true: SWORDS WITH RAGE ARE OP GUYS.
And I also thought I'd never say this, because Buddy does it for me already and the validity of the statement is still under debate: OPERATION BOMB & CRAWL IS OP GUYS.

Quote from uberman

I think, a better balance is to make rage less powerful, (to balance vs archers) and make crawler buffs cheaper to buy and/or faster to load to balance swords with rage vs crawlers.

^ I like this solution.

Quote from uberman

This will also make bombers a less attractive option for the chaos player if crawlers are better. Since for chaos its either crawlers or bombers eary on, and swds with rage PWN crawlers, and crawler buffs are so expensive and slow that they are unavailable early game - What option other than bombs does chaos have? NONE therefore mass bombs is the current only option vs swords

That doesn't mean it isn't effective though. Those bombs can rip through my entire army. IMO Making something a "less attractive option" doesn't help much in Order-Chaos matches (in Chaos-Chaos mass crawlers would get more effective and thus bombs would become less favored there, but the situation vs. Order remains unchanged). Just because an option is less attractive doesn't necessary mean that people won't still abuse it.