Quote from Wyrmspawn

I'm not so sure; while the spearton archidon formation uses the spearton to tank damage for archidons, there is no set rule that says you can't just go pure guerilla warfare with shadowrath hit and run and archidon kite...

That would take one helluva good micro to pull off though. Probably works on the largest map, but hard to pull off when there is more pressure.

Shadowrath are not good as an army. its as simple as that.

1. shadowrath in shinobi travel slower than most units. So hitting and running archers and speartons is not as simple as you think.
2. if you want your shinobi to actually hit, you would have to go run straight into archer fire and kiting, lose several along the way, get to a point several feet ahead of their army, THEN you can activate shinobi and actually hit something. with half of your shadowwrath left that is. If you can get to me befoer my wall too
3. I can just charge you with my speartons+archidons. Your shadowwrath and archer army wont have enough health to survive the encounter. this is because since shadowrath and speartons are roghly equal in combat, adding archidons to the mix which do MORE damage (percentage wise) to shadowwrath would tip it drastically in my favour. If you tried to even it out by chasing my archidons, I would do the above.
4. Shield bash. Some people use it ( I do too occasionally) A few people are good with it. Pros can sometimes (its somewhat difficult to time, and nothing is certain) stun a retreating (or charging) shadowwrath
leaving it frozen like a stuck pig. You would be suprised to see how fast a group of shadowwrath dies when full on assauted by both speartons and archidons.

While a shaddowwrath archidon army looks good in theory, (hit and run ftw and all that)What happens if running doesnt stop them from getting to you?

Let's put this into the spearton-archer versus Shadow-archer thread instead.

For now, let us consider: Is the archer-spearton better than the flier-spearton?

The following is written under the assumption that one player is using archidon-spearton and the other is using allbowtross-spearton

Archer Spearton advantages:

1: Archers can dodge magikill more easily and continue the attack on the enemies unhindered.

2: Archers and Speartons are easily massed compared to fliers and speartons.

3: Can move much faster

4: Also being ground troops, they are relatively more sheltered by spearton.

Main advantage for Flier-Spearton:

1: Obviously, they deal more damage.

Now, this might seem that the game is tilted towards spearton archers, but please consider the micro strategies that can be deployed by both sides.

Spearton Archer micros:

1: Spearton in shield wall with shield bash while archers rain arrows onto the enemy. Easy.

2: Spearton charge at enemies tower while archers kite the main force. Not so easy, but effective since the enemy will have to divide his troops into half very, very quickly. Unless your enemy has good micro, he will probably make a mess of it.

Spearton-allbowtross micros:

1: One or two spearton stay behind the rest to dodge the enemy's shield bash before killing off archers behind. Without archers, enemy spearton are vulnerable to allbowtross. If enemy spearton turn to attack speartons behind, they will have lost their shield wall and will allow more spearton to slaughter archers while allbows rain fire down on them all.

2: Use spearton walls to counter the enemy's spearton walls. Use superior armour piercing hits to kill enemy speartons. If they bring their archers into range with your fliers, they will bring archers into range of your spearton. Victory is assured, unless they have superior numbers or somehow micro out of it.

Now, it appears that at full strength, 80 population, the allbowtross-spearton formation holds an advantage over the archidon-spearton formation. However, we have one last thing to consider: Their retreat. What if the enemy does win because of better micro? What can you do next?

Scenario 1:

Your spearton all die but the enemy still has spearton and their ranged units are not harmed much, or even unharmed at all.

Retreat for archidon spearton:

1: Get out of range of allbows before kiting the spearton. If they stop their spearton to regroup with their allbows, fire at will at regrouping speartons.

Retreat for Allbow Spearton:

1: Umm... Send one or two allbows as a decoy to distract them while the rest gain a lead first? Depends on the map, really, but anyway, allbows suck at retreating.

Scenario 2: You see the battle isn't to your favour and retreat in advance, retaining control of your speartons:

Archer spearton:

1: Send spearton to get back to the base while archers while archers kite the enemy.

2: Send a spearton to a kamikaze rush to the enemy base, drawing fire from enemy allbowtross and keeping enemy spearton away from your archers. Then, make all archers target the distracted allbowtross. More of a counter than a retreat.

Flier Spearton Retreat:

1: Recall fliers first, then have spearton give up and retreat. A foolish enemy shall chase after you; if you time it right, you can use the kiting strategy once before you retreat again. However, kiting with Fliers requires a lot of foresight, timing, and assurance that the enemy isn't brave enough to keep going until their archers catch up. All that work for just one volley when archers can land several; Not quite worth it.

2: Leave one spearton as a distraction while you run.

3: Send all spearton in a kamikaze rush at their archers while your fliers retreat. If it procures unexpectedly good results, such as when the enemy can't disengage from shield wall quick enough, you might even kill enough to mount a counterattack. However, this hinges on the chance that the enemy is a noob.

Overall, we may come to the conclusion that although the allbowtross-spearton combo is better in combat, the archer spearton combo is done more quickly, which forces the allbowtross guy to turtle. And even if the allbowtross spearton formation is formed under turtling strategy, the allbowtross-spearton formation is too rigid to provide many forms of retreat; it is an all-or nothing strategy that you can only use from the very start of the game.

So: Archer-spearton is more flexible, while flier-spearton is more decisive.

Quote from Cha05Walking

yes, but please consider their power and speed

Dude,sometimes you tick me off. You made a whole thread about this and we confirmed why,they have low health.

Tons of things can beat it... So im gonna review 1 more time. Their power and speed would be usless considering they would be dead to albow spear or archer spear,they are to fast and that will leave archers behind. Or they could go shinobi and guess what?

their albows go for the next best thing that CAN be hit: YOUR ARCHERS LOL.

Also,think of spear archer like this: the speartons are there to take all the damage for their good friends the archidons.
Do it with shadows and they will die waaaaaaaay too fast...

Spears last longer than shadows. Spear Archer>Shadow Archer

OT: spears archers are better because they can kill you before you get an albow LOL.

Spear Archer is BETTER, as a combo, but Spear Albow BEATS Spear Archer in a straight-up fight. Of course, a good Spear Archerian will prevent you from getting that Spear Albow in the first place, so... no.

Well comparing archer/spear to albow/spear is pointless because your comparing a tier 2 unit to a tier 1 unit, so any comparison is pointless unless you factor training times and cost.

But as to combos, shadow/albow is one of my favorites, because the shadows can wipe out ground forces, while the albows support a hi damage output. Tho against spear archer combo this might not work if a wall is involved. Changes should be made accordingly.

Allbows are more powerful, but take more population, thus its everything about who is better at microing and shit.

Quote from DEMONGOD

Well comparing archer/spear to albow/spear is pointless because your comparing a tier 2 unit to a tier 1 unit, so any comparison is pointless unless you factor training times and cost.

But as to combos, shadow/albow is one of my favorites, because the shadows can wipe out ground forces, while the albows support a hi damage output. Tho against spear archer combo this might not work if a wall is involved. Changes should be made accordingly.

I generally don't like albows since they are hard to defend, I mean the only unit that can reasonably tank for an albow is a giant, which is also somewhat late game. I might bring out some albows regardless if they start massing melee units like swords or spears, but until I can get a somewhat grown giant, I prefer the speed and defendability (?) of archidons.

Although albows have the ability to dish out huge damage, they are glass cannons really.

Quote from FailingAtFailing

I generally don't like albows since they are hard to defend, I mean the only unit that can reasonably tank for an albow is a giant, which is also somewhat late game. I might bring out some albows regardless if they start massing melee units like swords or spears, but until I can get a somewhat grown giant, I prefer the speed and defendability (?) of archidons.

Although albows have the ability to dish out huge damage, they are glass cannons really.

I totally agree that allbows are glass cannons; they're too unarmored, really.

However, I can't get the giant as a meat shield for allbows as efficiently as speartons... I just tried twice with giant+allbow and lost, even when I was at 80 population. On the other hand, I seem to be better with spearton-allbow... is there any micro envolved other than putting giant in front of allbows?

Quote from Wyrmspawn

I totally agree that allbows are glass cannons; they're too unarmored, really.

However, I can't get the giant as a meat shield for allbows as efficiently as speartons... I just tried twice with giant+allbow and lost, even when I was at 80 population. On the other hand, I seem to be better with spearton-allbow... is there any micro envolved other than putting giant in front of allbows?

No. Its simply because speartons are more versatile than Giant as a moving tank. Fast and efficient.

Alba is armored tho.

Quote from Wyrmspawn

I totally agree that allbows are glass cannons; they're too unarmored, really.

However, I can't get the giant as a meat shield for allbows as efficiently as speartons... I just tried twice with giant+allbow and lost, even when I was at 80 population. On the other hand, I seem to be better with spearton-allbow... is there any micro envolved other than putting giant in front of allbows?

I use 2 giants, with one in front of the other, when the one in front is at 25% health or less, I move the other in front. I also either have speartons to rush ground units or magikill for huge splash damage on the ground units that bunch up either on the giant or on the magikill, in which case, electric wall on magikill renders any attack on it risky. And merics of course, their healing rate is actually really fast.

And technically, albowtrosses somehow count as being armoured, like giants and speartons. Quite surprising, I mean, you don't see any armour on them other than maybe a helmet. I think you mean they're hard to defend or make survivable.

Quote from jerrytt

good luck getting an albow out faster than I can get units to harrass you.

This is what separates the 2.1ks from the general population <2k. General population does not know how to pressure/withstand pressure.

Quote from ShadowGeneralChaos

magikill instakill tons of archers with only one blow, when he/she use it correct ;)

My army of spear-archer got cut in half because my opponent used blast on my archers and concequently i lost the match due to one unit.

anyways i would say that a Spear-albow combination would work best presuming you make a even amount AND Your economy does not get sabotaged.

But on the other hand a spear archer combo is faster and less costly in gold, mana and population, so you can afford those upgrades needed before a battle.
As i said above though the magickill are menaces when it comes to protecting archers :)

Actually, magikills are menace to both albatross and archers.