How useful is philosophy?

Started by: Automaton | Replies: 14 | Views: 743

Automaton
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Aug 25, 2013 5:52 PM #1074119
I don't have much time to write this thread before I go to watch something, but I felt the motivation to start it now, and so I apologise for its brevity or incompleteness or lack of depth. It will be more of an open question:
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We debaters may have often heard it remarked that "philosophy is useless" or "philosophy is meaningless", mostly by those that have less the idea of what philosophy is than whether it is useful. People ask "why do you even ask these questions? They aren't of any use at all". In my experience, these are the same sorts of people that state "maths shouldn't be taught in schools, it's a useless subject" or "when will I ever use algebra?" I have a group of friends (now ex-friends for no other reason than a gradual drift apart) who often, jokingly, responded to me in arguments by saying "but what is knowledge?" They said this because they knew I studied and enjoyed philosophy, and they knew that I studied epistemology, and they thought that fact and the question that arises from it funny in and of itself.

I started writing a book a while back, purely for my own enjoyment, and never with the intention of anybody else seeing it. However, because I'm pressed for time and there's no use in me regurgitating an argument that I already have in writing, I'll simply copy and paste the opening chapter on "the importance of philosophy". Please ignore the pretentiousness of it, because I tend to write pretentiously when I don't think anyone is looking. Here it is:


It is the strangest thing, as it seems to me, on the nature and importance of philosophy in the modern era. The question of its importance is commonly met with scorn, or a distasteful “why?” from the many that see it merely as a pretentious pastime engaged primarily by sophists and pseudo-intellectuals. Quite the contrary, I have found, the reality of the case has it.

Historically, the rigor and study of philosophy has wrought new truths–previously undiscovered–and further refined old truths. Indeed, the science has formed all manner of important uses, lest we forget the advances of Descartes and Pythagoras in mathematics, Plato in geometry, and Aristotle in logic. All too well, people say, but now we know all the truths that need to be known, and so philosophy turns upon the mystic metaphysical: a study, they say, that is of use to nobody. Yet, it appears to me that there are a number of assumptions and misconceptions contrived by such claims, the most prominent of which being that these people have less the idea of what philosophy is than whether or not it should be studied.

Firstly, one must consider what it means to think philosophically. In the most broad sense it concerns the rational thinking of underlying principles, values, and natures of we and and of the world that we inhabit. Commonly, people look upon this as little more than evaluating common-sense. “Well, I think logically”, they claim. Rarely is it the case that such self-proclaimed logicians understand the first thing about philosophical logic; most deny it even as a formal discipline.

Secondly, one must question what it is that should be so rigorously analysed. This question requires book upon book in order to describe fully, however a paragraph should suffice in scraping the surface and pushing details to one side, for the time being, although certain philosophical discussions will remain more pronounced throughout the book should they contribute to my overall philosophy.

To study any philosophy is to analyse and interpret issues and questions of the relating to: existence/ontology, reality, ethics, human relations (i.e. politics), knowledge, logic, mind and language. Most philosophers over the ages have dedicated their research and meditations towards one or a small few of these subsets. Often, to question one of these areas is to inherently question another, such as is questioning the existence of a god in need of questioning the nature of knowledge and of the language that is needed to describe such questions. A popular line of thought amongst modern philosophy is to assume that the basis of language underlies all philosophical enquiry, as the nature of our thoughts are formed through the use of our language. The later Wittgenstein held this belief, and thus undertook the study of the complexity of language and decided that “The limits of my language means the limits of my world”.

This inter-connectivity of the various sects and branches of philosophy leads me to my conclusion for this introduction: that philosophy derives its use not from itself, rather from its relation to every underpinning foundation of our human studies. What are we studying when we look at the laws of nature? We are studying through the branches of ontology and existence, through tools and thought processes given to us by philosophers throughout the ages. In addition to this, we are consequently studying the boundaries of our knowledge, and discovering the nature of our minds. Thus when somebody asks me “what do you study in philosophy?” my first thought is to respond with “everything”, and were it not for fear of pretension and the reinforcement of such stereotypes then that would be the response that I would give.

Of course, an obvious line of questioning to follow this revelation is to ask why, then, must we study philosophy if we already have such sects dedicated to the studying of its subsets—i.e. Physics and the sciences for ontology; common knowledge as the basis for epistemology; and psychology and neuroscience as the basis for the mind. In order to understand why philosophy supersedes and underpins all such areas requires a more in-depth look into the branches of philosophy and the questions in which they attempt to discuss and reason. It suffices to say that the philosophy of such areas delves more deeply into the core and fundamental foundations for their studies, all the while done so with an open, astute and logically-driven mind.

A final addendum as to the studying of philosophy comes from my own personal experience in my endeavors towards it. I wholeheartedly believe that, through studying philosophy, you bring forth your own beliefs from the depths of some previously unknown and buried chamber of foundations that underpin your character. In my own experience, these such beliefs have repeatedly been shattered and rebuilt upon more stable foundations with each new reforming. It seems to me that if—in studying philosophy—you have no such experience, then you are either an extremely lucky person in your previously naïve choosing of your beliefs and their remaining intact and true with your new revelations, or you simply have not thought rigorously or with an open mind on the issues that you have decided to analyse and interpret.


I still somewhat hold to this view. However, I read an article/conversation recently that made me think. I would implore you to do the same before responding to this thread (or at the very least read some of the premises of their arguments' standpoints):
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/sep/09/science-philosophy-debate-julian-baggini-lawrence-krauss

Now, perhaps my materialist, atheist and above all optimist mind leads me to the changing of my view, but I feel now that L.M. Krauss has a particularly valid point. Science CAN explain everything, because everything is science. There is nothing outside the reach of science because to suggest so is to suggest that there is something outside the realm of the material (that which science concerns itself with), and as a materialist I struggle to envision there being anything else. The question is: WILL it explain everything? Will our human comprehension of the natural world extend so far that we can be done with the wishy-washy round-about ponderings of philosophy? Will we no longer need to question how consciousness arises? Will we no longer need to question the meaning of all? Will we no longer need to question the mind or psychology? Will we understand everything as its base form: reduced to the material? It clearly can be reduced to what science concerns itself with, but will science be able to explain what philosophy attempts to explain and discover now?

There are already advances in science into areas that philosophy deals with, that we previously may have thought out of the reach of science. Sam Harris in The Moral Landscape (http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Moral-Landscape-Sam-Harris/dp/0552776386/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377452553&sr=8-1&keywords=sam+harris+the+moral+landscape) argues that science can prove objective morality. Imagine that, that morality is no longer left to the subjectivity of philosophical reason or the objectivity of religious absolutism.

I guess this then raises the question of whether or not, even if science is one day able to answer all of philosophy's questions, will it be practical and pragmatic to? Or will we gain quicker, easier and just as useful results from philosophy?

So, in summary:
- Are all philosophical questions within the boundaries of the natural world?
- Will science one day be able to explain and answer these philosophical questions?
- Will it be practical or pragmatic for science to do so? Will philosophy be just as good of an answer as science could ever be?

My opinion? Yes, philosophical questions are within the boundaries of the natural world, yes science will one day be able to answer all, and on the last question I am simply not sure. I would also like to point out and stress (perhaps I should have mentioned this earlier on in my explanation/argument) that in my opinion philosophy is still useful regardless of whether or not it will one day be replaced by science. We still need something of practical value for now, when science cannot answer all. I suppose those last 3 questions are a bit of a non sequitur from the main question as to how useful philosophy is, so perhaps you should consider them as 2 sub-topics.


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I'm not very good at presenting these thread, but hopefully you understand what I'm getting at, thanks.
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Aug 25, 2013 7:49 PM #1074186
Philosophy is what happens to science when you take away its budget. As an example, Galileo was able to prove philosophically that objects of different weights must fall at the same speed. He created a thought experiment (see appendix A) and used nothing but logic and language to show that this must be the case. He could have tested it by dropping things and timing them (see the hammer and feather on the moon), and today we could test it with even more precision, but there was no need to do so.

Science is philosophy, the only thing which differs is the method. Or, if you prefer, philosophy is one of many methods of which science is comprised. Oxford doesn't teach philosophy on its own (at least not until masters level), it has to be combined with another course, and there is a good reason for that. On its own the method's only value is academic, but in everyday life, or in other branches of science, the philosophical method is useful. Niels Bohr, in revolutionising science's understanding of time and space, drew heavily on work done by Kant (SEP)

Some branches of philosophy are beyond the reach of scientific methods by definition, such as metaphysics. The word literally means "beyond physics", as in "you cannot study this by traditional experiments". I've always been inclined to think of 99% of metaphysics as a form of nonsense, but it also covers the foundations of mathematics. A number is not a physical thing which you can touch, and Frege demonstrated that numbers are not properties like "red" (Klement, 2012, pp. 148-149). Discussions regarding the (in)consistency of set theory or intuitionist mathematics all fall under the realms of philosophy and logic.

Is it useful to know things like the foundations of mathematics? We get along perfectly well with maths anyway so long as 2+2 is the same today as it was yesterday, but by the same token is it useful to know where the universe came from? We seem to be doing just fine without knowing for certain the origins of the universe, but it would still be nice to get it sorted. Is it useful to know about history? You could argue that it helps us avoid repeating our mistakes, but if science were perfected then there would never be any mistakes anyway so there should be no need to remember the Holocaust.

The point is, we don't remember the millions of people who died last century because remembering serves a purpose. We remember because remembering is its own purpose. We feel a categorical imperative that these events should not be forgotten. That leads neatly on to my last point, which is that knowledge is its own reward. Answering questions like "What do Proper Names Refer to?" (my dissertation :) I'm aware of the preposition ending but the other way sounds wrong) doesn't produce anything in the traditional sense (although it makes the philosophical method easier) but some of us enjoy answering them, and some of us find it interesting to read other people's answers, and at the end of the day if something makes you happy then it is worth doing.


So, to sum up with answers to your questions:

- Are all philosophical questions within the boundaries of the natural world?

The questions are. The answers aren't always, ie. maths.

- Will science one day be able to explain and answer these philosophical questions?

No. I started typing that you couldn't answer my dissertation question that way but actually I think you could. It would just be really hard. I stand by the example of mathematics though. We know from Godel's incompleteness theorems that one cannot construct all of the truths of mathematics from mental foundations, and we know that numbers themselves cannot be physical. No amount of science can find 1.

- Will it be practical or pragmatic for science to do so? Will philosophy be just as good of an answer as science could ever be?

Here's where my dissertation is a better example. To work it out scientifically you need to be able to accurately reconstruct thought processes of not just one person but potentially an entire society, simultaneously, down to the finest possible detail. You need to trace thoughts through different consciousnesses. Neuroscience is just getting to the point where it can ask someone to think of an image and then put that image on screen, and it has a long way to go to get that image right. Now think about how you would even go about mapping an intention, and how you could convey that data to the researchers. You can't draw an intention, and human language isn't detailed enough to define it in the fine detail required to answer the question. Maybe science will get there one day, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper and quicker to get a philosopher to reason it out.



Appendix A - Galileo's thought experiment (Click to Show)
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Aug 25, 2013 11:40 PM #1074275
I'm much too tired to consider any proper response at the moment, but I shall do tomorrow. For now, I'd like you to consider and answer: which branches of philosophy do you deem to be a) within the reach of scientific explanation, and b) within the reach of scientific explanation in which case the scientific explanation will be preferred (insofar as to say that it will produce a much more objective and absolute truth, and also not be so convoluted that philosophy is a better explanation)?

I'm not even sure of the specific branches of philosophy. But to name a few:
1) Morality: As I've already stated, it seems pretty clear to me that science is coming close to answering this.
2) Politics: In my view the only 2 things needed for a successful political theory are a) moral standards, b) practicality. Morality can be answered by science, and practicality can be objectively and scientifically tested.
3) Metaphysics: I don't believe metaphysics is of import considering its only focus is on the supernatural (superphysical?), something that I feel any branch of any science can do without. As you said, maths fits into this, but I feel that science can answer the question of maths too.
4) Epistemology: Science can discover ultimate truths that may one day lead to a foundation of truths that can be an indisputable bedrock for a foundation of knowledge.
5) Religion: When it's metaphysical it's meaningless, and when it's not metaphysical it's historical (scripture), which is a formal science unrelated to philosophical pondering.
6) Logic/Reason: These are modes of thought that transcend our minds, so in that sense they can be objectively proven. Furthermore, the conceptual schemes for recognising formal logic can be scientifically tested, neurologically.
7) Language: Language can be objectively and scientifically assessed, and reduced to the most fundamental levels, and as such can be demonstrated to be in accordance with reality or not (science).

I'm so tired, and I'm confusedly contemplating the boundary between science and philosophy (even though one is a subset of the other?) For instance, the last question has me considering whether that can be deemed science at all.
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Aug 31, 2013 11:46 PM #1077226
My original response was deleted in that mini forum reset and I wasn't going to put it back, but I'm not sure it was worth reading anyway. New answer: I was re-reading my books on verificationism (masters starts next week and I want to be prepared because I know I'm going in with a target painted on my forehead) and I came across an interesting point which frankly I should have remembered. "There is no question whose answer is in principle unattainable by science" - Carnap, 1928. The point of view you're bringing up here was a central tenet of logical positivism, but even when it was a widely held position they didn't drop out of doing philosophy. Except Wittgenstein, but you can use crazy Austrians to prove anything.

Instead they, generally, argued that philosophy was a branch of science. You pointed out that the conceptual schemes for recognising logic can be mapped neurologically. That reminds me of the scene in The Big Bang Theory where Amy claims that if Sheldon came up with a unified field theory then she could map his thought process and subsume his conclusions under her field of study, hence all physics is just a step down from neuroscience. The study of atoms is physics. The study of brains is neuroscience. The study of logic is philosophy. If a neuroscientist reads a physicist's or a philosopher's mind then they aren't really doing neuroscience any more - they're essentially reading a physics or philosophy textbook. The fact that they used neuroscientific tools to do so doesn't make it neuroscience any more than reading their results through a pair of glasses would make neuroscience into optics.
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Sep 1, 2013 11:35 PM #1077828
The only real purpose for philosophy is to keep us thinking. That's it. You can't make a job with phylosophy (there's not such a proffesion has "philosopher", or a "phylosophy Inc.")
You can't get food with phylosophy. It's just to make us question everything, to keep us moving instead of keep our mind with one single belief.
Is just for that, to think. I'm not saying phylosophy is useless. Phylosophy is what separates us from animals. Animals doesn't question life, they just act. Animals doesn't think about "death", only humans think about that.

I don't want to be redundant, but phylosophy is only for that: to make us THINK.
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Sep 2, 2013 3:41 AM #1077989
Quote from Kodoku
The only real purpose for philosophy is to keep us thinking. That's it. You can't make a job with phylosophy (there's not such a proffesion has "philosopher", or a "phylosophy Inc.")
You can't get food with phylosophy. It's just to make us question everything, to keep us moving instead of keep our mind with one single belief.
Is just for that, to think. I'm not saying phylosophy is useless. Phylosophy is what separates us from animals. Animals doesn't question life, they just act. Animals doesn't think about "death", only humans think about that.

I don't want to be redundant, but phylosophy is only for that: to make us THINK.


How would you know? Also:

A philosopher is a person with an extensive knowledge of philosophy who uses this knowledge in their work, typically to solve philosophical problems. Philosophy is concerned with studying the subject matter of fields such as aesthetics, ethics, epistemology, logic,metaphysics, as well as social philosophy and political philosophy.
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Sep 2, 2013 9:53 AM #1078107
Quote from Kodoku
You can't make a job with phylosophy


Professor of philosophy = philosopher. Also, most modern jobs don't revolve around food. I don't know why you'd criticise anyone for not being a farmer.

And I'm pretty sure it's spelled with an "i". It comes from the Greek "philia" meaning "to love", "sophis" being wisdom.
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Sep 2, 2013 3:27 PM #1078216
Quote from Zed
Professor of philosophy = philosopher. Also, most modern jobs don't revolve around food. I don't know why you'd criticise anyone for not being a farmer.

And I'm pretty sure it's spelled with an "i". It comes from the Greek "philia" meaning "to love", "sophis" being wisdom.


one thing is teaching philosophy has a subject (like teaching Aristotle's philosophy, or whatever. teaching THEORY.), and other thing is making a job out of philosophy. You can't make money with asking question to yourself about the universe. You can't make money with questions. You can make money with answers. you can be a scientist and investigate the universe or whatever, but if you're just a philosopher and you just keep questioning everything without getting an answer you can only use philosophy to keep thinking.
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Sep 2, 2013 9:48 PM #1078344
Well, in that case philosophers can do what they usually do and have a job while being a philosopher as well. If someone loves philosophy they will do it but, not full-time. Pretty simple. Now they can be a philosopher/scientist or whatever just as before a lot were philosophers/poets.
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Sep 3, 2013 12:03 AM #1078413
*Full disclosure: I'm drunk. I point this out so that I can go back on myself later without such severe repercussions.*

Quote from Kodoku
one thing is teaching philosophy has a subject (like teaching Aristotle's philosophy, or whatever. teaching THEORY.), and other thing is making a job out of philosophy. You can't make money with asking question to yourself about the universe. You can't make money with questions. You can make money with answers. you can be a scientist and investigate the universe or whatever, but if you're just a philosopher and you just keep questioning everything without getting an answer you can only use philosophy to keep thinking.


I can see where you're coming from, but I disagree. Most philosophers, when faced with a question, come up with an answer. I'm going to use logical positivists as my go-to example in this thread because it probably doesn't matter and I know lots about them. They took a question, "What is it for a statement to be meaningful?", and provided an answer, "the meaning is the method of verification". A philosopher doesn't just ask questions. He answers them. I'll grant you that answering these questions isn't a source of revenue for most philosophers; most philosophers do indeed make their money from telling people how other people answered the questions. But that just puts them on a level with all teachers, primary, secondary, and university level. (Or, if you're American, elementary-, middle-, high-school and college level.) However, as I'm sure those people would agree, what they're doing at that point isn't really philosophy. True philosophy is in presenting your own ideas. And whilst it is difficult to earn a living from books about your own ideas, it is by no means impossible. The example which comes to mind is The God Delusion, which sold enough copies for Richard Dawkins to live comfortably off of. It cdertainly contained science, but philosophical theology was involvefd in his conception of God. A purer example would be the Tractatus Logico Philosophicus, which must have sold enough copies to live off. Admitedly, I haven't checked (I didn't even check my spelling) and Wittgenstein was rich enough to survive without selling anything, but it was still philosophy and people still bought it.

I can't remember my original point. Does this get me anywhere towards answering the post I quoted?
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Sep 3, 2013 4:44 AM #1078561
This really depends on how one defines philosophy. I've heard people say that philosophy has little relevance because they haven't studied or have a degree in philosophy. To these people I would say that they're missing of what philosophy is all about. Anyone has the ability to be philosophical by examining, questioning, and observing oneself and the world around them.
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Sep 5, 2013 6:06 PM #1079802
It depends on the topic in discussion. Let's take science for example.

In regards to science, armchair philosophy is useless without the required background knowledge. The simple fact remains that no matter how hard you try, without the required knowledge, you aren't going to find answers within.

That being said, even with the required knowledge, armchair philosophy is far more limited than what it once was. Sure, in the past the likes of Newton, Einstein or Sagan would have found much use in sitting back and taking a refreshing philosophical approach. It was certainly valid as much of what we knew about the universe fell within reasonable bounds. Our brains are able to comprehend general relativity and simple laws of physics. This is because we're products of a world that's not too small and not to large. We happened to evolve in the plains of Africa in which the only laws of physics that had much of an impact of our lives were start of medium sized objects.

Nowadays, as we delve into areas in quantum mechanics, we can't rely on our predetermined notions of what is 'normal' or 'conventional'. Our brains never evolved to comprehend the mechanisms behind quantum physics, and therefore it makes little to no sense to us. Quantum entanglement befuddles us. Particles popping into and out of existence befuddle us. It all seems physically impossible to us. But it's not. It's only physically impossible within the constraints of what our brains have evolved to comprehend. And it's for this exact reason that we can't trust our own intuition when dealing with the forefront of modern science (primarily in the realms of theoretical and applied physics).

As for social, ethical and moral questions, philosophy is as relevant as it has ever been, and will continue to do so. I personally feel that both science and philosophy should be responsible for the purging of religion on this planet.
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Sep 6, 2013 7:42 AM #1080183
Quote from Cronos
It all seems physically impossible to us. But it's not. It's only physically impossible within the constraints of what our brains have evolved to comprehend.


We're working on it. There's a field of study called Quantum Logic where you get rid of (~~A -> A) and see where you end up. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-quantlog/
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Sep 6, 2013 6:55 PM #1080419
I could never hope to understand what's being said in that article.
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Sep 6, 2013 10:15 PM #1080482
I have no idea either, and I've got about a year to work it out. What I take away from it is that as physics advances it's becoming more like philosophy than before. We're getting beyond the point where you can test things empirically and into the stage where the only hope is to think things through, but the way we think also needs to be shifted so both sides are struggling with it.