Well, I was reading an old science fiction/fantasy book today (Empires of Flux & Anchor) and the author proposed briefly something to me that seemed extremely unusual but totally right. Usually when you hear religious arguments against homosexuals it's about how it's immoral and not god's plan and stuff, which is of course silly because of certain things that we can but hopefully won't debate here. And when you hear arguments against masturbation you hear that it's immoral and against god's teachings but you never get a concrete argument against it, and SPP as a whole agrees (mostly) that there is nothing wrong with it.

The book proposed, in a single sentence, that homosexuality, both male and female, was wrong because if a man's ****ing a man or woman's sexing up a woman they can't get anybody pregnant and therefore no more of the human race is created.

And also, I was listening to this one comedian and he said something along the lines of 'my grandmother told me that it was better for my seed (aka semen) to fall in the belly of a whore rather than on the ground', which was of course followed by a gut busting joke, and he portrays his grandmother as a religious woman. So the reason it is better for it to fall into the belly of a whore is because the whore could still get pregnant and make more humans.

I'm using these references instead of actual biblical ones because frankly I don't read the bible on a frequent basis and the only biblical reference I am going to bring into this is that somewhere in there is said the need to procreate. So combine the infertility of homosexuality and masturbation with a relatively small human population and the need to procreate and you get, well hopefully, a connection.

So the only reason masturbation and homosexuality is wrong is because it cannot yield children.

But does this apply now?

My answer is no, there is no reason for homosexuality or masturbation to be considered immoral, especially considering the lack of actual reasons of immorallity, in this day and age. If my theory ( which could be true, but if it was so plain black and white I don't think we would have homosexual arguments and such) is correct than now when there is no need to procreate and most people believe that we are overpopulating the world and a population recession is in order, what reasons are there for homosexuality to be disdained and is it just silliness on the churches part the represents how far from the truth and original message organized religion has strayed?

-- I understand this topic is written poorly and I'm not sure what exactly I want you to debate on so feel free to debate on any of my points.

--I also understand that the words of a comedian and a science fiction writer are hardly strong reference points.

Umm, I agree? I never thought it might be unknown, but I guess I just take it for granted that I've made this connection before, myself. I'm not one to argue about common sense or anything, but if that exists, this is about as close to it as possible.

Quote from OGrilla2

Umm, I agree? I never thought it might be unknown, but I guess I just take it for granted that I've made this connection before, myself. I'm not one to argue about common sense or anything, but if that exists, this is about as close to it as possible.

Oh well I just thought of this like ten minutes ago and I was like, that makes sense.

So the church is making religious claims that don't even apply anymore in any context?

Leviticus 20:13: "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

This is from the old testament.

The new testament as well as the old one condemns fornication, and as homosexuals are not allowed to marry in most countries it's very hard for homosexuals to have sex without fornicating.

For many people that is reason enough.

Quote from alive

Leviticus 20:13: "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

This is from the old testament.

The new testament as well as the old one condemns fornication, and as homosexuals are not allowed to marry in most countries it's very hard for homosexuals to have sex without fornicating.

For many people that is reason enough.

Well yes, but surely there is a part of the bible that describes why this is an abomination, which I suspect is my (apparently common) theory.

And if there is no reasoning then there's no reason to follow the advice. =/

Silly religious zealots.

Quote from Schwa

Well, I was reading an old science fiction/fantasy book today (Empires of Flux & Anchor) and the author proposed briefly something to me that seemed extremely unusual but totally right. Usually when you hear religious arguments against homosexuals it's about how it's immoral and not god's plan and stuff, which is of course silly because of certain things that we can but hopefully won't debate here. And when you hear arguments against masturbation you hear that it's immoral and against god's teachings but you never get a concrete argument against it, and SPP as a whole agrees (mostly) that there is nothing wrong with it.

The book proposed, in a single sentence, that homosexuality, both male and female, was wrong because if a man's ****ing a man or woman's sexing up a woman they can't get anybody pregnant and therefore no more of the human race is created.

And also, I was listening to this one comedian and he said something along the lines of 'my grandmother told me that it was better for my seed (aka semen) to fall in the belly of a whore rather than on the ground', which was of course followed by a gut busting joke, and he portrays his grandmother as a religious woman. So the reason it is better for it to fall into the belly of a whore is because the whore could still get pregnant and make more humans.

I'm using these references instead of actual biblical ones because frankly I don't read the bible on a frequent basis and the only biblical reference I am going to bring into this is that somewhere in there is said the need to procreate. So combine the infertility of homosexuality and masturbation with a relatively small human population and the need to procreate and you get, well hopefully, a connection.

So the only reason masturbation and homosexuality is wrong is because it cannot yield children.

But does this apply now?

My answer is no, there is no reason for homosexuality or masturbation to be considered immoral, especially considering the lack of actual reasons of immorallity, in this day and age. If my theory ( which could be true, but if it was so plain black and white I don't think we would have homosexual arguments and such) is correct than now when there is no need to procreate and most people believe that we are overpopulating the world and a population recession is in order, what reasons are there for homosexuality to be disdained and is it just silliness on the churches part the represents how far from the truth and original message organized religion has strayed?

-- I understand this topic is written poorly and I'm not sure what exactly I want you to debate on so feel free to debate on any of my points.

--I also understand that the words of a comedian and a science fiction writer are hardly strong reference points.

The comedian was Ron White, and I have the DVD he says it on. It's called "They Call me Tater Salad"

Anyway, I agree somewhat, but the human population is NOT "relatively small". In fact, we're close to becoming TOO populous, and will have to colonize toher planets or build vertically more often to accomadate.

Quote from Schwa

If my theory ( which could be true, but if it was so plain black and white I don't think we would have homosexual arguments and such) is correct than now when there is no need to procreate and most people believe that we are overpopulating the world and a population recession is in order,

I already said that.

I said the bible was written during a time when there was a relatively low population.

And now there is a big population.

Ah, I misunderstood. Sorry.

Morality is opinionated, the body clears out semen by itself, and you know what happens with women. Potential babies are bound to be lost. Does this mean that infertile men and women should abstain from sex? Absolutely not.

Quote from adrenalineflash

Morality is opinionated, the body clears out semen by itself, and you know what happens with women. Potential babies are bound to be lost. Does this mean that infertile women should abstain from sex? Absolutely not.

Gah, loop hole.

SPP has made me more tolerant towards gays and also less religious and more cynical.

Gosh darn you internets.

General foruming opened me to this type of discussion and thinking, and getting the **** out of a Catholic school made me realize that there are people who aren't Christian out there.

Quote from Schwa

Gah, loop hole.

SPP has made me more tolerant towards gays and also less religious and more cynical.

Gosh darn you internets.

Welcome to the lovechild free exchange of information and 12-16 year old males: penis jokes and atheism/agnosticism/beastialitism.

Quote from Ash

Welcome to the lovechild free exchange of information and 12-16 year old males: penis jokes and atheism/agnosticism/beastialitism.

Cock joke.

Anywho. Back on topic.

But it seems we're all in agreement.

>=X

Quote from Ash

Welcome to the lovechild free exchange of information and 12-16 year old males: penis jokes and atheism/agnosticism/bestiality.

I call captain of this team.

well i suppose the bible teaches that because if it was "OK" then everyone might start doing it, and if everyone did it it could lead to extinction. but its ok if there are only a certain population doing it.