I've used to be a horrible terrorizer of Everything being unbalanced, but I've learned from my mistakes and have this to say:

I'll tell you my honest opinions in a list:
1. Chaos and Order should have not been given burn damage due to the loss of effective blasts, as the initial damage they used to have was much more crucial (Or at least decreased the amount of burn damage caused...instead of decreasing initial damage "to fit" in the burn damage
2. Trees are honestly the basic infantry of the Elementals, yes they may seem powerful in the start...however other empires can still advance in economy much easier than the elementals. If I may...I would suggest Brock to implement a "Cap System" (Maximum) for 3 Treatures at one time...but it does not seem like they would prefer to place a "Cap" on any unit type (But it would limit scorpion mass)
3. I had the hardest time adapting to this idea, but as I am trying to recommend to you that all is balanced...all empires have their strong-points and weak-points (For example: Order has strong shielding and healing, Chaos has more Firepower(Air/AntiMage power ;p), and elementals have good offense and defense but can still be beaten by their weak-points as well)

My Conclusion/Personal Opinion:

"All are All" - What I derive from this little phrase is that All nouns (Empires) are All adjectives(Underpowered, Slightly Underpowered, Balanced, Slightly Overpowered, Overpowered, Smart, Stupid...etc).

I'm not sure exactly how Chaos is slightly UP or Order being Slightly OP...But my final conclusion is that no empire will ever be able to be judged perfectly due to the variations of thoughts throughout all people...as it is derived by our own biology to be individual.

So it is best to just simply report bugs...and trust the creators to "balance" their game, Your suggestions are a part of your freedom of speech and may help as well...but as Hewitt said...lets use suggestion threads the right way :)

Quote from sorrowandsadness

But it seems that most have ignored the fact that premiums comprise not just a large, but completely disproportional number of top spots on toplists. A number that is not statistically explained merely by top players "favoring chaos."

Your analysis is literally making me cringe. There are more than two variables here.
Good players tend to have more experience, and tend to play more often, thus they will take up the majority or all of the top list. They get there because they have a high win ratio, nothing else matters to the elo system at all (in simple terms). Now, say you had two games, some money and you didn't have enough money to pay for stuff in both, most people would pick the game they are going to play more often, to get more value out of what they spend. Right? So the players that have money are more likely to want to pay the game they do best in. Thus, out of the top list, the majority with free money are going to want to put it into Stick Empires, because it would have more value for them on there as that is the game that they are good at. Thus, the top list players will not only have a preference for paying Stick Empires rather than other games they aren't so good at, but most players will probably want to also use what they pay for, and I mean a lot more than the Spearton animations.

Those who play well will want to donate and play the premium empires, not the other way around.

Quote from sorrowandsadness

The fact that order can beat chaos or elemental doesn't prove or disprove one is OP or UP. What matters are long term averages and statistics, which is what the toplists provide.

Again wrong, something is OP or UP regardless of how little the other player knows how to (ab)use any OPness or wekaness in the opponent. The stats only show you how players react, if I found some crazy counter tomorrow to insta win against Chaos then Chaos becomes UP regardless of how few people adopt my counter. UP and OP are game balance, win rate is player skill balance, and you'd expect people to lose to an Empire they see once every 50 matches, nowhere near as much experience.

And for the record, I just played an EE player, Lancifir, whom totally said two things,

1. That EE is OP.
2. That if he wanted to play a fair match, he would play order, and he was unwilling to say anything about EE being OP because he didn't want it nerfed.

As I have said many times, many premium players have no honor.

Lancifir is just that guy with no shame, albeit he's quite decent.

Would it be possible (in a chaos v elementals) for a full bomber start and just rush kill and all 3 earths in an attempt to get a tree leaving them with no gold or mana and even if they do manage to merge in time I think they would require 30 mana to create bugs and if you kill their miners fast enough there would be not enough mana

They could split the earth elementals.

Quote from awesomebloc

Would it be possible (in a chaos v elementals) for a full bomber start and just rush kill and all 3 earths in an attempt to get a tree leaving them with no gold or mana and even if they do manage to merge in time I think they would require 30 mana to create bugs and if you kill their miners fast enough there would be not enough mana

You would at least have 3 bombs, due to water freezing and earth stunning your bomb.

About his OP saying elemental is OP (lol double OP) we have to remember elemental has been out for like a week. Right now they are testing the waters to see whats OP and not OP and we will adapt to that.

I honestly think that elemental and order is balanced.
UP till now I still cannot think of anyways for elemental to deal with albow mass. Just that chaos can hardly deal with elemental

And besides, trees are now downgraded with that health bar , they can be killed in seconds by four-five swords.

But what I am thinking is that if trees get nerfed, then elementals would be too weak because there are no tankers for elementals compare with other two empires
charrog 's health is not enough, and the ghost of elemental is also the weakest among three empires

I am thinking if other two empires can be buffed, or nerf trees of elemental and buff other units of elemental

Many units of elementals are imbalanced. Cycloid is too weak but expensive, the tornado spell cannot deal damage. Inferno has two spells, the dragon spell is same as the explosion of magkill before, but the spell is too slow, and the damage is not great. The fire rain is slow and very low damage. Charrog is not that feasible compared with speartons and juggers, because it cannot be a good tanker.
The most important thing is that all units of elemental except tree and charrog has armor and low health

So unless all other units get buffed and nerf the trees, otherwise if tree is nerfed alone, elemental would definitely be the worst empire

For me, I have the ability to beat any elemental players under 2k with my order, but I cannot beat those 2.2k-2.3k elemental player with either order or chaos ....

Quote from sorrowandsadness

If anyone would like to engage with the facts I have presented, please do so.

But it seems that most have ignored the fact that premiums comprise not just a large, but completely disproportional number of top spots on toplists. A number that is not statistically explained merely by top players "favoring chaos."

Sorry, I am not a troll, but a player who cares about more than just my rank and scorecard, but the game as a whole. Again, other players have posted about this including some premium players who are at least honest, and instead of be taken seriously, are ignored or like this thread, insulted.

Well, it seems we know long term where this game will end up.

And by the way, mrbatty, in terms of order players who can take out chaos players, I am probably one of the better in the game. I knocked off number 7 yesterday in DM, and another top 12 players as well.

The fact that order can beat chaos or elemental doesn't prove or disprove one is OP or UP. What matters are long term averages and statistics, which is what the toplists provide.

But again, it seems having an informed discussion about these things is not going to get anywhere. Nor my requesting actual, tangible ways to better balance the game...

You're implying that because we don't completely agree with your opinion we "Care more about our rank and scorecard" and don't care about game balance. And if you use the rating system for "long term averages and statistics" you're very mistaken. Let's take for example waseem1104. He boosted his account to the top of both ladders by cheating. And let's not forget everyone's alts.

When people pay to get chaos and elementals they generally are dedicated to the game and spend more time to improve. To say that Elementals and Chaos are overpowered and that can be proven by the Top 100 list is a misguided opinion.

"The fact that order can beat chaos or elemental doesn't prove or disprove one is OP or UP. What matters are long term averages and statistics, which is what the toplists provide. "

This is partly true, no, the fact that order can beat them doesn't mean that one is over or under powered. However, the top 100 lists don't prove anything either! Both arguments there are flawed.

I do apologize for believing you to be a troll, but I do not at all agree with what you're saying nor do I agree with what you want to do to balance the game. You want to make order stronger than it already is, which isn't necessary. What we need to do is just nerf elementals, specifically trees. I don't think making castle archers upgradable to be better than they are (which is already really, really good in comparison to what chaos or elementals has as equivalent.) will create better game balance.

Quote from sorrowandsadness

And for the record, I just played an EE player, Lancifir, whom totally said two things,

1. That EE is OP.
2. That if he wanted to play a fair match, he would play order, and he was unwilling to say anything about EE being OP because he didn't want it nerfed.

You just contradicted yourself there, and so what? Right now no one has fully understood ways of playing against or with them, just because a single person says they're OP when you totally disregard everyone else saying they aren't OP doesn't make them OP. You're taking a single individual's word over everyone else's.

Quote from sorrowandsadness

And for the record, I just played an EE player, Lancifir, whom totally said two things,

1. That EE is OP.
2. That if he wanted to play a fair match, he would play order, and he was unwilling to say anything about EE being OP because he didn't want it nerfed.

As I have said many times, many premium players have no honor.

This reminds me of the dead spam, as skeleton said about developing an OP strat to counter and insta win vs chaos. Everyone thoughts the deads sucked and that went on for quite some time. Tons of people complained about the deads being UP. Now fast forwards to present some person (Idk who, someone can correct me here on who invented it) massed dead and then it passed player to player and BOOM suddenly deads are way better (or OP if you want to call it). So when people adapt to strats you can find tons of ways to beat your "problem". Maybe someone will realize that (this is a joke) the spearton rush can cream elementals (it might, just maybe). So please its only been out for a week and abit and were already getting tons of OP/UP complaining threads. Again its only been a week or 2 so CJ and everyone with elemental are "testing the waters"

Buff Tower spawn 2

Right now the Big Charrog
-Has increased health
-Same damage
-Same Speed (looks like its moonwalking xD)
-Can be stunned
-Cannot stun like giants can
-is not armor piercing like giants are
-Cannot block air units like giants can
-Cannot target air units like giants can

Conclusion: waste of 3000 resources

Maybe they can make it so that he has the permanent burning effect of the regular charrog, with increased damage.

I do apologize for believing you to be a troll, but I do not at all agree with what you're saying nor do I agree with what you want to do to balance the game. You want to make order stronger than it already is, which isn't necessary. What we need to do is just nerf elementals, specifically trees. I don't think making castle archers upgradable to be better than they are (which is already really, really good in comparison to what chaos or elementals has as equivalent.) will create better game balance.

Same as Rain. I'm out of this thread because everyone else seems to be arguing the same points.

Quote from jerrytt

Conclusion: waste of 3000 resources

I totally agree now even having seen the nothing damage the Elemental ghost 1 does in game, and they need a buff, but to be honest, in any game it's rarely the ghost alone that provides the harass, it's the free meatshield you use as cover to send in ranged dps on the enemy - at least with order. Elementals can use the hp heavy Charrog ghost to send in a protected scropion mass or to inflict some burn damage on the enemy with a mass of fire elementals.