Quote from Jutsu

I think if you want to discuss this you should make a new thread for it. Instead of encouraging me to continue off topic posting.

I think everyone is still referring to the fact they're not buying a natural selection based argument against vaccinations.

Quote from Jutsu

Like I said, I wasn't stating my own opinion or against vaccines here.

I know, I'm just stating that it probably wouldn't make a great debate to begin with since it's very one sided, and the problem that the debate is supposed to be talking about isn't clearly defined.

Though I must say that humans "doing fine on their own" is equally preemptive. As we've been outside the natural cycle for a very short time now, or perhaps we're still in it, depending on the perspective.

I mean "doing fine on their own" in the sense that there's no problem that humans currently suffer from that could be solved via short-term natural selection or even natural selection in general. The closest thing I can think of are diseases, but even then vaccines are probably much more efficient than waiting for mother nature to do its work. And for things like HIV that can't be solved through vaccines, we probably won't receive any edits resisting HIV for a long time.

And you simply cannot convince me that some of the mouth breathing breeders that shuffle amuck in modern day like over medicated zombies with their inept retard spawn would have survived otherwise. This part is my opinion, and is also extremely judgmental of me.

If I think I know who you're talking about, I blame that more on bad parenting than resisting evolution.

I think if you want to discuss this you should make a new thread for it. Instead of encouraging me to continue off topic posting.

Well it's still related to the topic in a sense. If it really starts derailing I'll make a new thread.

Quote from Jutsu

And you simply cannot convince me that some of the mouth breathing breeders that shuffle amuck in modern day like over medicated zombies with their inept retard spawn would have survived otherwise.

Stephen Hawking wouldn't have survived either. so what?

none of this is relevant to natural selection. your argument stems from an incorrect assumption that "survival of the fittest" inherently rules out the sort of people you described, as if those people are supposed to die according to natural selection and modern society is getting in the way of it. natural selection has no end-goal, you might as well argue that gravity wants us to stay on the ground and we're getting in the way of it by inventing flight.

you also seem to have a misunderstanding of what the "natural" part of natural selection implies. it doesn't mean it's a process exclusive to "natural" environments without industry or technology, it means biological diversity can occur without divine intention, which was a new idea at the time. human-engineered vaccines aren't found in nature but that doesn't make them "unnatural" and subsequently incompatible with natural selection.

Quote from Exilement

Stephen Hawking wouldn't have survived either. so what?

See, that was my point. But an interesting conversation proceeded.

Like I said, not my argument, I'm not trying to justify anything, I'm not trying to be off topic.

It's not really off-topic, you framed it as an argument against vaccines, that's exactly what this topic is about. Nothing wrong with playing devil's advocate

I thought I was playing devil's advocate.

That's besides the point, I'm not going to go through the EXACT SAME argument I went through before. It becomes like a religious argument, pointless. And I do not care to recite the entire argument that I had, just to clarify for you.

Especially considering it isn't my argument to begin with.
I still think it's an interesting subject, but not the subject at hand. Because it will lead to a separate debate which will be off topic.

I was just saying I can see it being used as an argument against, because I have seen it used as an argument against.

Why even bring it up then?

Quote from Exilement

Why even bring it up then?

It wasn't the topic of my post, it wasn't even a full sentence.

I was discussing the topic, trying to find a good angle to get in on the discussion. You took that small segment as the head piece of my post.
Like I said, I could see a natural selection argument being made there, because I have seen one made there. Simple as that.

Does something so casual require more clarification? Do I owe you even more explanation?

Quote from Exilement

you also seem to have a misunderstanding of what the "natural" part of natural selection implies. it doesn't mean it's a process exclusive to "natural" environments without industry or technology, it means biological diversity can occur without divine intention, which was a new idea at the time. human-engineered vaccines aren't found in nature but that doesn't make them "unnatural" and subsequently incompatible with natural selection.

This is actually one of my favourite topics of discussion with regards to the modern world. I"m not sure if its been done before as a debate or not (or if anyone is against the view). Would you say that the things we (humans) have made are 'natural' (pollution, toxic dumping, deforestation) because the human beings who invented it were invented by nature? Or would you say there ARE some things we've created that go against nature?

It also ties into the argument that some (not very smart) people make about vaccines not being 'natural'.

Quote from Nish

This is actually one of my favourite topics of discussion with regards to the modern world. I"m not sure if its been done before as a debate or not (or if anyone is against the view). Would you say that the things we (humans) have made are 'natural' (pollution, toxic dumping, deforestation) because the human beings who invented it were invented by nature? Or would you say there ARE some things we've created that go against nature?

It also ties into the argument that some (not very smart) people make about vaccines not being 'natural'.

It is a very interesting topic, but it seems to me like no one can come up with an objective definition of nature and natural whenever the discussion is taking place.

It makes a great discussion but not a great debate, as it's very opinionated and subjective. From your perspective vaccines seem completely natural but maybe someone else might not think the idea of altering viruses and injecting them into our body to force an immune response doesn't seem natural at all.

Generally I wont debate from the side of my own opinion.

But since I owe explanations out the wazoo, here we go.

I happen to believe modern society is entirely too fearful and that we over vaccinate and over medicate and it's causing these illnesses to evolve to be more effective at what they do, I am concerned that if this goes on too long that natural immune systems wont stand a chance and it will begin causing even bigger disease problems than we already have.
However, I'm not against vaccines or modern medicine. I believe that the system "especially in USA" needs to change, is all. People get a common cold and practically start begging for antibiotics and then wonder why they're sick all the time, because their bodies can't handle themselves. People get back aches and start begging for pain killers, then wonder why they can't handle pain. Society handles modern medicine very foolishly. I think vaccines can and should be used for the common good.

I don't like the idea of a future where we all pull around an IV drip cart filled with chemical cocktails just so we can breath the air, just so we can cope. That's not human, that's weak.

Quote from Jutsu

I happen to believe modern society is entirely too fearful and that we over vaccinate and over medicate and it's causing these illnesses to evolve to be more effective at what they do

I think you're confusing antibiotic resistance and maybe the hygiene hypothesis with topics related to viruses and the immune system. antibiotics don't work with our immune system and there's nothing about vaccinations that are weakening our immune systems, it's the exact opposite.

as far as antibiotic resistance goes, it's true that pathogens can and do mutate to resist antibiotics, but the severity of the illness is not increased as a result. the only alternative of wittholding antibiotics does not give us a stronger "natural" immune system to fight them off ourselves, it only turns the potential situation of pathogens we can't treat into a guaranteed situation of pathogens we won't treat. try and guess which option would result in more deaths.


and I apologize if you didn't expect such a response to your mentioning of natural selection, but you know how much time I've spent debating that topic around here and regardless of who's making the argument, it's demonstratably false and I'm able to explain why. eithI figured you or someone else might benefit from that knowledge so it doesn't even get brought up in future discussions about this issue, here or elsewhere

It's my fault, for poorly communicating.

I'm being misunderstood here.

Your point about painkillers was correct, though, more pain killers = increased pain response later down the road, but you need to take quite a lot for that to happen.

Quote from Exilement

Your point about painkillers was correct, though, more pain killers = increased pain response later down the road, but you need to take quite a lot for that to happen.

I've seen it's mostly about frequency/dependency. The longer they use pain killers to cope, the bitchier they get when they run out.

Anyways, I've derailed this thread enough, I'm taking my leave.

I still don't see how this is 'derailment' when we're ALL still on-topic, and so is the debate at hand.

Quote from Jutsu

I don't like the idea of a future where we all pull around an IV drip cart filled with chemical cocktails just so we can breath the air, just so we can cope. That's not human, that's weak.

Thats dragging the situation to its worst possible exaggerated conclusion. By the time our physicality degenerates to that level, we will all be thought beings roaming around in cyberspace.