In reference to the Danmark situation, this is nothing like that. When he rotoscoped the effects that he used, he did that to recreate something to make his animation look better without actually needing to know how or be able to animate the effects himself. In other words, he copied frame by frame for personal gain in hopes no one would recognize what he did.

In this case, I haven't actually watched the animation (Sorry Nordin :[ I have bad internet), but judging by the two .gifs that I patiently waited five minutes for, I would have to disagree with the main point of this thread. I honestly feel like you need to remove the whole introduction gif from there entirely because I'm honestly surprised that that was even brought up in any way possible. I have seen several edit's and different forms of every stickpage intro or FA intro that has ever existed o my knowledge because it is the artist/animators way of putting their touch on the introduction to make it more unique to them and their animation.

As for the second scene. It took a bit of loading before I was able to see what was copied and what not. The AoT scene was not traced, obviously as mentioned previously in this thread. The way I have always understood copyright infringement is that if you have a logo that is a black ninja with a blue bandana swaying to the left, and I make a blue ninja with a red bandana swaying to the right and maybe the change of a few more minor details, it is no longer copyright infringement. A good reference other than what Jeff posted would be the Famila Guy episodes that tribute Star Wars. By the logic people are using in this thread, you guys wouldn't have liked those episodes because of the unoriginality with the characters and plot.

Is that wrong? No.

Fl-Nordin is an extremely talented artist/animator who does not deserve to have his reputation damaged because of something like this. He did not trace, or steal anyone else's work. He referenced the anime in his animation and made it look really awesome. We all agree that Nordin has the ability to make something just as epic as this ending, so truthfully it doesn't matter that he mimic'd the idea of another anime in a competition because it wouldn't have mattered anyway. If we have Nordin remake the ending to this animation it will still be better than the other entrants that he beat, and it will still be epic as hell. If AoT is as popular as everyone says it is, then there is no way Nordin would have even thought the final scene would have gone by unnoticed. He obviously didn't try to sneak it in there.

You could play on his unoriginality with the final 10 or so seconds of his animations, but again it is irrelevant because he more so would have placed first in Intermediate without it. I'm also confident that a lot of inspiration the animator's around here get comes from the work of other animators. I wouldn't chalk off points for unoriginality when he only copied a few seconds from the scene, and still added his own touches on it to make it different. Really the only part that was obvious he referenced to the max was the turning punch and arm slice. So why don't we question Hyun's originality with drunken stick in reference to Jackie Chan's Drunken Master movie? He probably received money from StickPage to sponsor his animation, but I don't remember making a thread and having a meaningless argument about it.

Let's also take a look at the competition itself. "Game Tribute Legion". "This is to be your master piece! Do 'research,' buy or play the game you wish to tribute. Take out key details that really make that game what it is and show it in your animation. Of course, it shouldn't be all that hard to research a game you love to play :P". The idea of the competition was to reference something elses ideas and give the artists own spin on something they really liked. That is exactly what Nordin did with the final scene. So again, why would you want to question his originality in a competition that's major premise is not originality? What if this were a call of duty animation and he copied the last fight scene almost perfectly?

Judging by the premise of the competition he would not be in the wrong at all. It's like that time I traced a good 40 frames of some Naruto anime fight and posted it in the flash section. Everyone flipped shit because I "copied it", but the sad part is not only was it obvious because of the animation I copied, but the fact that the gif I traced was someone's signature at the time who posted in the thread. The point I'm trying to make is that when something so known is copied or reworked there is usually no way it is done with the intention to deceive.

It is also unfair to attack Nordin because he is trying to defend himself. The man provided the flash file to his animation because he's confident that he did not do anything wrong and has nothing to hide.

Edit: Watched the animation. It was pretty fucking cool. A whole lot better than Oxob's even with the whole "rotoscope" claim and all. I still stand by my points 100%

Quote from Arch-Angel

In reference to the Danmark situation, this is nothing like that. When he rotoscoped the effects that he used, he did that to recreate something to make his animation look better without actually needing to know how or be able to animate the effects himself. In other words, he copied frame by frame for personal gain in hopes no one would recognize what he did.

In this case, I haven't actually watched the animation (Sorry Nordin :[ I have bad internet), but judging by the two .gifs that I patiently waited five minutes for, I would have to disagree with the main point of this thread. I honestly feel like you need to remove the whole introduction gif from there entirely because I'm honestly surprised that that was even brought up in any way possible. I have seen several edit's and different forms of every stickpage intro or FA intro that has ever existed o my knowledge because it is the artist/animators way of putting their touch on the introduction to make it more unique to them and their animation.

As for the second scene. It took a bit of loading before I was able to see what was copied and what not. The AoT scene was not traced, obviously as mentioned previously in this thread. The way I have always understood copyright infringement is that if you have a logo that is a black ninja with a blue bandana swaying to the left, and I make a blue ninja with a red bandana swaying to the right and maybe the change of a few more minor details, it is no longer copyright infringement. A good reference other than what Jeff posted would be the Famila Guy episodes that tribute Star Wars. By the logic people are using in this thread, you guys wouldn't have liked those episodes because of the unoriginality with the characters and plot. Is that wrong? No. Fl-Nordin is an extremely talented artist/animator who does not deserve to have his reputation damaged because of something like this. He did not trace, or steal anyone else's work. He referenced the anime in his animation and made it look really awesome. We all agree that Nordin has the ability to make something just as epic as this ending, so truthfully it doesn't matter that he mimic'd the idea of another anime in a competition because it wouldn't have mattered anyway. If we have Nordin remake the ending to this animation it will still be better than the other entrants that he beat, and it will still be epic as hell. If AoT is as popular as everyone says it is, then there is no way Nordin would have even thought the final scene would have gone by unnoticed. He obviously didn't try to sneak it in there. You could play on his unoriginality with the final 10 or so seconds of his animations, but again it is irrelevant because he more so would have placed first in Intermediate without it. I'm also confident that a lot of inspiration the animator's around here get comes from the work of other animators. I wouldn't chalk off points for unoriginality when he only copied a few seconds from the scene, and still added his own touches on it to make it different. Really the only part that was obvious he referenced to the max was the turning punch and arm slice. So why don't we question Hyun's originality with drunken stick in reference to Jackie Chan's Drunken Master movie? He probably received money from StickPage to sponsor his animation, but I don't remember making a thread and having a meaningless argument about it. Let's also take a look at the competition itself. "Game Tribute Legion". "This is to be your master piece! Do 'research,' buy or play the game you wish to tribute. Take out key details that really make that game what it is and show it in your animation. Of course, it shouldn't be all that hard to research a game you love to play :P". The idea of the competition was to reference something elses ideas and give the artists own spin on something they really liked. That is exactly what Nordin did with the final scene. So again, why would you want to question his originality in a competition that's major premise is not originality? What if this were a call of duty animation and he copied the last fight scene almost perfectly? Judging by the premise of the competition he would not be in the wrong at all. It's like that time I traced a good 40 frames of some Naruto anime fight and posted it in the flash section. Everyone flipped shit because I "copied it", but the sad part is not only was it obvious because of the animation I copied, but the fact that the gif I traced was someone's signature at the time who posted in the thread. The point I'm trying to make is that when something so known is copied or reworked there is usually no way it is done with the intention to deceive.

It is also unfair to attack Nordin because he is trying to defend himself. The man provided the flash file to his animation because he's confident that he did not do anything wrong and has nothing to hide.

well said mate
well im actually on nordins side . a lot supports on nordin . so yeah
- and even though nordin plans to change it , he'd still won , duh guys try to appreciate the others parts of his animation , it was pretty cool actually , FB monsters , effects and angles . pretty cool :rolleyes:

Quote from ACBeam

That's just pure bullshit, that's not even being inspired that's just really liking someone else's idea and copying it to use it to their advantage...
And yeah it does take some sort of "plagiarising" skill to copy something and make it look almost exactly the same.

If something inspires you then you should try do it in your own way rather than copying the very thing itself...(unless it's for non-profit educational purposes). < I think you mentioned that anyway so pardon my lecture, but this is a comp with money prizes.

I'm not sure if games are the same deal, but even games people consider original such as katamari, are inspired by other games which had been done years ago.
Katamari and Snake have pretty much the exact same concept.

Quote from X-treme

I'm not sure if games are the same deal, but even games people consider original such as katamari, are inspired by other games which had been done years ago.
Katamari and Snake have pretty much the exact same concept.

This is definitely not at the same level as Katamari and Snake.

Quote from X-treme

I'm not sure if games are the same deal, but even games people consider original such as katamari, are inspired by other games which had been done years ago.
Katamari and Snake have pretty much the exact same concept.

Yeah but that's the thing you can tell the difference between the two because of their styles, and that's kind of what I'm trying to say, for example just look at Micwizard, the ending was a tribute to Gurren, and Miccool did it in his own way instead of copying "exactly" from the anime. Now that's a scene that was inspired and not copied right? That's probably why FL's anim is causing commotion in the ocean.

Yeah, is ok to be inspired.

Is ok to make a homage.

But nordin is talented enough to do this without having copied 100% of the angles/scenes/FX just because it looks cool. Again, I think is unfair for the other competitors who probably worked their ass off trying to think on "how would the shadows for this angle look like?" Or "Of I'm making this angle, where would this limb be?". I just can't look at it without seeing it was WRONG, and that it shouldn't have been used in a competition where the choreography/originality/details and angles can give you more points. Hell the rest animations have been pretty good IMO and they were done completly from scratch, they had their own inspirations too probably but they didn't do a straight rip-off from someome else's work.

PS: In my posts I've never used the word "rotoscoped" , I've just mentioned that you copied it.

I've edited my first post to deal with the people who're sifting.
But I'm quoting the new parts of it here, because I know some of you wont back-check in the forum either.

Quote from RawGreen

I don't really have any immediate feelings about the titan thing.
From my perspective, it's not something that was done cheaply, just to get the winning blow in a competition.
Granted that this definitely IS NOT something I would do or encourage others to do, I'm left with some very neutral emotions.

Throwing emotions aside and going by my logic;
If we let this slide, other animators are going to start doing this because it's been made 'okay' to do by the majority.
And even if they get caught they can copy FL-Nordin's excuse.
-
Monkey see monkey do, people who are willing to copy for the sake copying will copy things ALL the way.

The AoT scene should be edited by FL-Nordin himself;
The turning around punch and the spinning blade can be kept as a homage, sure,
but when things get to be nearly spot on, THAT needs to be changed.
-
My solution would to be to have him recreate the shots differently.
Could be the same movements and just a different angle by the camera.
As long as it doesn't come as close as it is currently in it's retrospect.
-
It wouldn't be out of line to have the judges to re-judge the animation after.
But we can't have them give a biased vote based on what would be these now past events.

Credits given where Credit is due;
Even with the change of that shot, as long as something is paying homage to something else,
as an independent producer it's incredibly important that you put these things in the credits.
-
Not everyone is going to know what it's giving homage to, and the people who do can really mess things up for you.
Especially if you homage things regularly without credit.



And for sifters who're only checking the first page or two because of the thread title,
here's a key part of the discussion that I want you to read;
http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?86415-FL-Nordin-Risk-of-Rain-ROTOSCOPE/page5#48


The professional world isn't relatively cruel, but people can be REALLY nasty.
It might not seem like it, but this community is actually looking out for you as a whole when we tell you that this isn't right, or that this is a grey area.

I am neither attacking him nor defending him, and neither should anyone here else be.
This has presented to us a problem involving a grey area both in law and morale.
-
We shouldn't punish FL-Nordin over this.
He'll be an example no matter what we do in the end, however.

I feel that the solutions I've given are adequate to the problem.
And again, FL-Nordin isn't the problem, it's the grey area.

Quote from Raptor

Now I don't personally think it's against the rules or anything to make references, but the lack of originality should certainly be taken into reconsideration when judging the animation if it hasn't been already. Still, that scene shouldn't be compared to the likes of this because the point of each reference is completely different.

IMO this is basically what it all comes down to. I don't think Nordin intended to do anything wrong, but was simply paying homage and thought that everyone would get that. But that doesn't dismiss the fact that it is still pretty much a straight copy of the scene, and that needs to be taken into consideration when judging since this is a competition. I think the best solution to this is for Nordin to remake the scenes that are pretty much 100% copied, and then be rejudged. He's almost guaranteed to still win 1st place anyway so I don't think this is too much to ask of him.

Arch-Angel made a very good point, but i still dont know what "those who are still unsettled" want from me other than a apology.
Ow, hehehehehe, you guys just want more eye-candy hey, (thats what it all comes down to) me remaking the scene with my own twist in it, apart from the fact that my verstion is stick and not fullbody, has no 3-d gear shown, boss isnt even organic, time difference is huge (lightsaber and = in space), character has one sword (1 lightsaber), if this thing really is that big of a problem for this community (some solid-ish statements where made), then I feel like i owe it to you all and especially my competitors to remake that scene

FL, I think you're missing the point and are making empty apologies. What you did wasn't wrong in of itself. It was wrong because of the nature of competition. Also, you can't just change itty bitty details and say that everything is a-ok. However, I don't think we need to go as far as force Nordin to remake the whole scene (considering he probably would've won 1st anyway).

Quote from McRhook

FL, I think you're missing the point and are making empty apologies. What you did wasn't wrong in of itself. It was wrong because of the nature of competition. Also, you can't just change itty bitty details and say that everything is a-ok. However, I don't think we need to go as far as force Nordin to remake the whole scene (considering he probably would've won 1st anyway).

I am not missing the point here, i was just wondering what you all want from me, because i have already awnsered most question you guys throw at me yet this topic is still going, as if there is a solution for it, the "harm" is already been done and there is no reverse, and you pointed out yourself that nobody should force me to remakeing the whole scene, so then again what other point am i missing here.
luckily the title of the thread has been changed to "reference" (just wanted to point that out, now the thread doesnt feel like a lynch at least)
the thing is that this thread now has become a place to talk about the grey area jeff and others where talking about, whats acceptable and what not
so no im not really missing the point here.

I think apologies are currently irrelevant, and don't help us figure out what to do about the grey area.
Being that how we act about this now will paint how new and other animators in the community treat this grey area in the future.

We've already discussed what's acceptable and what's not.
I think now we should be working on a solution.

Quote from RawGreen

I think apologies are currently irrelevant, and don't help us figure out what to do about the grey area.
Being that how we act about this now will paint how new and other animators in the community treat this grey area in the future.

We've already discussed what's acceptable and what's not.
I think now we should be working on a solution.

True this.
Not all this arguing

As long as you admit that it wasnt really a cool thing to do and that you wont do it again I dont really have a problem with this. Becaus imo, naming the scene AOT doesnt really count as giving credit as you wont be able to go to scene selection when its being posted on youtube and such. And to someone who dont watch anime, like me, I wouldnt have any idea what AOT means. Credit should be posted in the credits, and thats where I see this as a wrong doing.

Although looking back, I cant say that im any better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvJEWFUVslw one of the BSE rounds that I actualy won.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBdRi9oh9CM The reference.

That was before I even thought about that it might not be a cool thing to do. Even though it was a competition with way smaller prizes, I still made my anim way to simular to that pokemon scene to where it looks rotoscoped. Looking back now and realizing what I did, I feel very ashamed and its something I'd never do again.

even tough if he edited it or not. he still may have one 1st place. but i guess the points might be less. or stay as it usually is. look at the details the menu and else? theres always an outstanding angle!
Im supporting you FL-Nordin. You have inspired me lots of times.. <3