Quote from Vorpal

Yes, but, minimum wage for those employees is significantly less than most other employees. In other words their employer pays them very little hourly and the rest is entirely up to tips. So the business owners that would normally need to budget that large difference of money now don't need to and can instead use it on other things.
This means that when we tip the employees the money is functionally going into the business owners hands, not the workers, since the worker would ordinarily not need tips at all if this social construct didn't exist. If tips weren't expected they would have the same minimum wage as other entry level jobs. This also sucks for the consumer too, that now has to give an implied fee to an expecting worker.

This should be no surprise though, this is America.

Edit: sorry about that, I'm a retard.
TL;DR: Just because employers have to pay the difference doesn't mean they aren't usually paying delivery employees significantly less than their other employees.

What are you talking about?

I worked a serving job for a year, and if I didn't make good tips, that was on me. In fact, we would under-report our tips so that we're not getting taxed on them.

unless there's some funky shit, Tips go directly into your pocket. The customer pays his tab and leaves, and the money left on the table goes directly into your pocket, and you get to decide whether or not your report that income to your boss.

Quote from Arch-Angel

The cost of living in America based on our minimum wage is fucked. Which is why I'm concerned about people wanting to raise the minimum wage rather than try to lower cost of living, though I'm not sure how they would go about doing that.

The reason why a lot of shit is so expensive to begin with is because it's subsidized by the government anyways, so there's no incentive to lower the price.

You know why hospital visits are so expensive?

Because healthcare providers assume that you have insurance, and since your insurance will pay the entire bill, there's no reason to not jack the price up.

If a provider is going to pay 100% of something, why price it at $450 when you can just set the price at $4500 and pocket the difference? All the customer knows is that they're paying their small little co-pay.

Quote from Zman

Burn a wealthy mans money and raise the value of the dollar. Maybe that would get some results except someone would be going to jail and I'm pretty sure its more stock based than cash based

That's not how money works, dipshit.

You can't tax people into prosperity, and if taxation is theft, then what you're proposing is much worse.

The US Dollar is a fiat currency. That means that $1 is worth X amount of resource. Regardless of whether there's a million or ten dollars in a system, that dollar is worth the same amount, since it doesn't actually represent anything. The money gives itself value.

This lets the US Government artificially inflate their own economy (currently at 3%) and change the amount of money in the system without actually changing it's value.

Quote from Externus

Minimum wage is fine in most places and the majority of the US that doesn't have contending populations differentials. For instance, where I live, Washington state, it's a fucking nightmare. I used to live in a much smaller city above Seattle, and minimum wage made you essentially middle class and you were WELL off. After I moved here in Seattle, $13.00 an hour is still barely anything and you're still struggling pretty hard for money. You can't just raise minimum wage in states that have such huge differences between areas and assume it's going to be fine. Cost of living is a big factor, not minimum wage.

And that's why I get really annoyed when people just ask for higher minimum wage. It's not going to help. It's going to make the situation worse, because cities are going to struggle even more because businesses will just be forced to inflate the dollar (which is already a thing on it's own) and smaller towns will just continue to thrive because they're getting paid more off an already sustaining economy.

Yeah, when I lived in rural florida, min wage + tips was more than enough to afford an apartment. But now that I live in the city, it's not the same at all.

Quote from Arch-Angel

I think what California is doing by raising their own minimum wage is a good idea. Perhaps the federal government should keep a minimum wage in regulation that prevents harsh wages, but the states themselves are better off dictating their minimum wage based on cost of living.

This shit right here niggas is absolutely true.

States should determine their own policies regarding healthcare, taxes and minwage. New York and Texas are radically different states, and you'll never be able to come up with legislature that pleases both states.

Quote from Smile

@Arch I'm no economist, but I don't think it's possible to lower the cost of living. Rent depends on the value of the property, which is largely determined by the market. The reason why big cities like New York or Las Vegas have high cost of living is largely due to the amount of rent you need to pay. Considering just this, and not even including the cost of other basic commodities, I don't think it's possible.

@Externus I'm not sure what you mean by "businesses will just be forced to inflate the dollar"? If you mean increase their prices, then I don't think that would be a problem if setting minimum wage is set city-wide instead of state-wide. Higher minimum wage would merely decrease the income of already rich people (i.e. businessmen) but would increase the quality of life of poor people, while not affecting the places where the minimum wage is already optimized. Though I'm actually not quite sure how feasible imposing a city-wide minimum wage would be in the US, since I've got 0 knowledge on your labor laws.

The reason why a lot of living stuff is so high is because the government intervenes to influence the price, or places so many regulations on it that private industries are forced to inflate their prices to compensate.

You know when there's animation competitions? Do you see people's work get sloppier and sloppier as they submit their entries?

No, you see the quality improve, because they're competing, and they know that nothing but the very best product will make people want to watch.

That's essentially how the free market works -- The highest quality product for the cheapest price.

Quote from Arch-Angel

That's what I'm saying, which is what puts us in a peculiar prediciment. I feel like it could be a solution to double the minimum wage and allow inflation to occur where it needs to where it's still possible to employ people at McDonald's without losing money. Mcdonalds is a good example of the results of inflation. They would have to adjust prices accordingly and probably go up to a two or three dollar menu rather than a single dollar menu. The point of increasing minimum wage is also to give more money to consumers that way they feel more comfortable spending which in turn can stimulate the economy. My parents are heavily involved in investment real estate, and I'm sure their cheapest property to rent is $900. That would be fucking impossible on $7.25/hr but it's like you said. Because of the monthly costs on the loan on the house they have to adjust rent accordingly in order to turn a profit.

The good thing about raising the minwage is that per dollar, poor people spend a lot more money than rich people do. (EDIT: Relative to their total income. There's about $300 in my bank that doesn't get spent because I'm saving it. A rich man will keep several thousands in his bank that wouldn't get spent.)

If you give a rich man a dollar, it'll probably be a long time before he spends it, because he has so many others to spend, so it just sits there.

But a poor man will spend that money almost immediately.

Cook, please, use spoilers, also, shouldn't you guys start a debate thread about this?
cause this seems like it would fit better in there

Quote from Creepin_Bro

Cook, please, use spoilers, also, shouldn't you guys start a debate thread about this?
cause this seems like it would fit better in there

Or we could have a casual conversation about it in the fuckin' chat thread.

Having to exert the effort and participate in a debate thread just sucks.

Quote from Creepin_Bro

Cook, please, use spoilers, also, shouldn't you guys start a debate thread about this?
cause this seems like it would fit better in there

Yeah let's talk about stick figures instead.

I hope Cook knows what I said was a joke by the simplicity of my comment and how it would never accomplish anything.

Quote from Zman

I hope Cook knows what I said was a joke by the simplicity of my comment and how it would never accomplish anything.

Quote from Smile

@Externus I'm not sure what you mean by "businesses will just be forced to inflate the dollar"? If you mean increase their prices, then I don't think that would be a problem if setting minimum wage is set city-wide instead of state-wide. Higher minimum wage would merely decrease the income of already rich people (i.e. businessmen) but would increase the quality of life of poor people, while not affecting the places where the minimum wage is already optimized. Though I'm actually not quite sure how feasible imposing a city-wide minimum wage would be in the US, since I've got 0 knowledge on your labor laws.

Except this isn't really true. For instance, when minimum wage was raised here, all it did was make businesses charge more for things. However, people like doctors who are paid salaries are just getting less money now because the dollar is just worth less by giving it to entry-level jobs. Businessmen are pretty much free-flowing and can modify how much they charge, and how much money that can come in. But for educated people, you're nullifying their education. My mother for instance, works as a highly qualified RN with more education than a lot of doctors, used to make 19 dollars an hour (now makes 25 an hour). McDonald's over here hires people starting at 13 dollars an hour to flip burgers. Businesses are still fine because when minimum wage increases and the value of the dollar begins to decrease (due to increasing the value of entry-level jobs), they can just charge more, which is what almost every business here does. The McDonaldes's over here don't partake in the majority of all promotional discounts and generally charge more.

Increasing minimum wage doesn't decrease the wealth of rich people, because most rich people won't be affected by this because they already have enough stability to just modify to the changing environment. It'll just decrease the wealth of the middle class to the upper-middle class, usually just people with educations.

And even so, this isn't a solution to the problem. The goal of the economy isn't to make rich people poor, but it's to make poor people RICH. After you take all the rich people's money, what happens? This is a short-term solution that will fall apart. The goal is to create an easy economy where it can be self-sustaining and cycling, and by reducing rich wealth, you're just taking from a supply that's going to run out sooner or later. Personally, I believe this should be done as you age, where younger kids work the shit jobs at McDonald's and all that entry-level shit, and slowly work their way up the educational ladder and make better paying money. Upper-education should be universally available and accessible, and that's where the money from the rich should go, not giving burger-flippers more money.

Honestly the best solution to the economy right now is probably less federal involvement. If we could jump back to the point you made about government aid with subsidized housing resulting in people charging more money when they know that the government is footing the bill. This is also true for colleges which is screwing a lot of upper middle class out of getting affordable college as well as putting a massive cloud of debt over a vast majority of other middle class students. It's no secret that when the government foots the bill the prices go up. Now if the government stopped intervening with college education, then universities would have to lower their prices in order to generate any kind of revenue. If only the richest kids can afford to go to college, then colleges are going to lost s ton of money because of the reduction in the amount of students attending. Now do the same thing for housing. This will allow both colleges as well as the housing market to be competitive once again. I was a manager at McDonald's for quite some time and there is no way the restaurant can afford to pay $15/hr with the same prices. It's impossible. However, Mcdonalds is not supposed to be the kind of job where thirty year olds need in order to make a living which again is part of the problem. It's a minimum paying job for minimal skilled workers, you know, sixteen year olds who can finally get a job. I like the point you made about bridging the gap in pay between someone with no college or work experience compared to someone with years of both. That's not going to work either any way you cut it.

Im voting for trump because he wants to build a wall. It doesn't get more progressive than that.

Quote from Creepin_Bro

Cook, please, use spoilers, also, shouldn't you guys start a debate thread about this?
cause this seems like it would fit better in there

Why can't they talk here? You can make your own thread too if you want to talk about a different specific thing.

Also, Debate Threads require searching for proof, providing facts to back your claims and sound analysis, which is far too much work when all you want to do is repeat political non-revelations that you heard or read elsewhere. The Chat Thread is ideal for that.

ahaha you're right nish!! Good catch!

Quote from Externus

Except this isn't really true. For instance, when minimum wage was raised here, all it did was make businesses charge more for things. However, people like doctors who are paid salaries are just getting less money now because the dollar is just worth less by giving it to entry-level jobs. Businessmen are pretty much free-flowing and can modify how much they charge, and how much money that can come in. But for educated people, you're nullifying their education. My mother for instance, works as a highly qualified RN with more education than a lot of doctors, used to make 19 dollars an hour (now makes 25 an hour). McDonald's over here hires people starting at 13 dollars an hour to flip burgers. Businesses are still fine because when minimum wage increases and the value of the dollar begins to decrease (due to increasing the value of entry-level jobs), they can just charge more, which is what almost every business here does. The McDonaldes's over here don't partake in the majority of all promotional discounts and generally charge more.

Increasing minimum wage doesn't decrease the wealth of rich people, because most rich people won't be affected by this because they already have enough stability to just modify to the changing environment. It'll just decrease the wealth of the middle class to the upper-middle class, usually just people with educations.

And even so, this isn't a solution to the problem. The goal of the economy isn't to make rich people poor, but it's to make poor people RICH. After you take all the rich people's money, what happens? This is a short-term solution that will fall apart. The goal is to create an easy economy where it can be self-sustaining and cycling, and by reducing rich wealth, you're just taking from a supply that's going to run out sooner or later. Personally, I believe this should be done as you age, where younger kids work the shit jobs at McDonald's and all that entry-level shit, and slowly work their way up the educational ladder and make better paying money. Upper-education should be universally available and accessible, and that's where the money from the rich should go, not giving burger-flippers more money.

The theory was that raising the minimum wage would increase the expenses of businesses, but the prices for their products would stay the same since the market has been accustomed to the price. Businesses who would keep their prices constant would provide an edge over those who decides to pass the expense to their consumers. Just a few of the businesses doing this would pressure the rest, because nobody would want to lose their customers to the cheaper products of the competition. Of course this wouldn't work if literally all the businesses increase their prices, which seems to be what happened where you live, but that's just going to have to happen.

I'm not saying burger flippers should become rich, I'm just saying that the lowest of the workforce shouldn't have to depend on tips as much as they do right now in America to live. Naturally the people that are better off will be affected, but they need to be if you don't want angry pizza delivery guys looking at Miracle like he's some kind of asshole. The end goal is not to make rich people poorer, but to make sure that poor people can still eat three meals a day even if they don't get much tips.

EDIT: Actually I just realized I don't know what it's like there in America and I don't think I nearly have enough expertise on the subject anyway, so you can consider everything I said null, and I should totally just withdraw from the subject if I want to save face.

I hate the idea of people having to work for tips because rather than doing your job well it's more of how well you can kiss a customers ass. It seems as though that adds some low self esteem to their position since their pay isn't very consistent and is dependent on generosity of the customer and how much they purchase.

The idea of depending on some tips to pay for your dinner isn't a fun thing to think about. A tip should be more of "am I going to have extra tonight?"

Quote from Zman

I hate the idea of people having to work for tips because rather than doing your job well it's more of how well you can kiss a customers ass. It seems as though that adds some low self esteem to their position since their pay isn't very consistent and is dependent on generosity of the customer and how much they purchase.

The idea of depending on some tips to pay for your dinner isn't a fun thing to think about. A tip should be more of "am I going to have extra tonight?"

As somebody who depends on tips from delivering pizza, I will say that because of how its become taboo or cheap to NOT tip, that there is some level of consistency when it comes to tips. On a good night I expect to make no less than 30 dollars in cash from tips, and if I do extra little things (help chase a dog that got out of their house, bring the pizza right to their table if they let me, pet the dog I caught from it escaping, talk to the kids and being sweet to them) I can expect some decent 10-12 dollar tips and make a solid 60-80 by the end of the night

I make more delivering pizza than I did at any other job I had working half the hours just because if you do your job well, you are rewarded well (generally), and I like that about it. However, it isn't always consistent, and that's why it's only my source of income because I currently still live with my parents and go to college. Unless you work 3 different delivery jobs and work every day, It wouldn't be enough to sustain yourself unless you lived in a 600 or less a month apartment, and those are incredibly shitty.

Cruel~ I imagine those apartments are the situation where it is more comfortable to sleep on the floor than the bed and more.