I couldn't think of how to title this.
I live in America, i'm 18 years old, and about to register for Community College.
Why community college? Because when I was younger, I was stupid, like most kids and young adolescents, I didn't take school as seriously until i got older and realized my mistakes. By junior year, i started getting my shit together, but it wasn't enough to bring my GPA up to University standard. Now here in America, we're really make college and essential for good living. Very few, well paying jobs, offer any employment without a college education.
Now I get why, but the issue is, kids don't all get it off the bat. They tell you as a kid "You'll regret it when you're older." As if they're talking to you as you are older, but as a kid, you don't always pay attention to the future, or how you're screwing up. Took me a long while to realize it, but you can't blame a 13 y/o for not completely understanding how crucial their decision was to not do well in school. They don't think reasonably. Took me until 16 to realize how important school was. But it was too late for how badly I was failing before.
A couple of questions here for debate.
Should college be as important to live a successful life as America wants it to be?
Should college be only choosing kids who did well in Highschool, or have a certain amount of time during your life where you can try to go to college, even if you didn't do well in Highschool. For example, a 30 y/o male wants to go to college, he didn't do well when he was kid, but now as an adult, wants to do better. Should he be penalized for him lacking the will to do well as a child/adolescent, even though now as an adult has a mature look on life?
Should college be extremely expensive to stay enrolled or should it be a cheaper price, or public like highschool, with the ability to leave if you feel it isn't for you?
Sort of like the first question, should college really be put on KIDS, and to tell them "You can never live more than a below average life without college?"
College
Started by: Pin | Replies: 21 | Views: 4,957
Nov 18, 2014 5:53 AM #1270246
Nov 18, 2014 6:04 AM #1270248
You take high school education too seriously, it means nothing in the real world.
If you or your parents can't afford an expensive college, that's most likely why you're going to a community college.
American Community College isn't designed to make you successful or to educate you, it's designed to make money. You must take it upon yourself to get the most out of it you can and to get educated. They don't care if you don't do the work, or drop out, or whatever.
Once you get a college degree in anything, the jobs you're looking for will literally care nothing for your high school GPA, or whether or not you even passed high school. My friend went to community college and he didn't even have a GED or pass highschool, they just want you to pay them for classes.
American businesses are seldom interested in educated youth, or disciplined scholars. You can land a decent job, by being willing to do a shitty job and by being an obedient worker, while constantly looking for a job.
Even if you have a degree, it's still difficult to get a good job. For example my step father had a degree in micro biology, I remember him working as a cab driver, pumping gas and cleaning airplane hangers. But never anything that actually involved his degree, even with a die hard work ethic. Because his degree just wasn't worth a lot.
Your superior education will likely be looked over for people with greater job experience, meaning, by being young you're at an automatic disadvantage.
I'm sorry, you probably didn't want to find out this way.
Now, to address the debate topics.
1: I don't think the first question is clear enough, exactly how important to success in American life do you think college is? And what is your definition of success?
2: As previously mentioned, most colleges don't really care how well you did in highschool. They just want you to pay them for classes. I had one college agent literally say I was smart for dropping out of highschool while she was trying to recruit me. And highschool doesn't determine how well you will do in college, or even indicate your IQ. The best path to a better college is probably through transferring from community college, by working hard. I'm not sure though.
3: I think education should be free, that's a legitimate debate topic though. I don't feel like I know enough about economics and government to make a bold statement about it. I think I'll wait for someone else to.
4: I don't think college should be forced on anyone and technically it isn't, there's plenty of people who simply decide not to pursue higher education and that's their choice. Even after going to college, it's entirely likely that you'll live a below average life anyways, depending on your circumstances.
If you or your parents can't afford an expensive college, that's most likely why you're going to a community college.
American Community College isn't designed to make you successful or to educate you, it's designed to make money. You must take it upon yourself to get the most out of it you can and to get educated. They don't care if you don't do the work, or drop out, or whatever.
Once you get a college degree in anything, the jobs you're looking for will literally care nothing for your high school GPA, or whether or not you even passed high school. My friend went to community college and he didn't even have a GED or pass highschool, they just want you to pay them for classes.
American businesses are seldom interested in educated youth, or disciplined scholars. You can land a decent job, by being willing to do a shitty job and by being an obedient worker, while constantly looking for a job.
Even if you have a degree, it's still difficult to get a good job. For example my step father had a degree in micro biology, I remember him working as a cab driver, pumping gas and cleaning airplane hangers. But never anything that actually involved his degree, even with a die hard work ethic. Because his degree just wasn't worth a lot.
Your superior education will likely be looked over for people with greater job experience, meaning, by being young you're at an automatic disadvantage.
I'm sorry, you probably didn't want to find out this way.
Now, to address the debate topics.
1: I don't think the first question is clear enough, exactly how important to success in American life do you think college is? And what is your definition of success?
2: As previously mentioned, most colleges don't really care how well you did in highschool. They just want you to pay them for classes. I had one college agent literally say I was smart for dropping out of highschool while she was trying to recruit me. And highschool doesn't determine how well you will do in college, or even indicate your IQ. The best path to a better college is probably through transferring from community college, by working hard. I'm not sure though.
3: I think education should be free, that's a legitimate debate topic though. I don't feel like I know enough about economics and government to make a bold statement about it. I think I'll wait for someone else to.
4: I don't think college should be forced on anyone and technically it isn't, there's plenty of people who simply decide not to pursue higher education and that's their choice. Even after going to college, it's entirely likely that you'll live a below average life anyways, depending on your circumstances.
Nov 18, 2014 6:28 AM #1270251
Businesses who hire fresh graduates don't look at their college degree because of their good grades and higher intellect. They want college kids because college is essentially a simulation of the real world and if you passed that that essentially tells the adults that yes, you CAN take orders and follow the rules without fucking up.
Nov 18, 2014 6:48 AM #1270254
Quote from HewittBusinesses who hire fresh graduates don't look at their college degree because of their good grades and higher intellect. They want college kids because college is essentially a simulation of the real world and if you passed that that essentially tells the adults that yes, you CAN take orders and follow the rules without fucking up.
Aptly put, something I was trying to convey in my post.
I would like to add that while good grades in college can help you get scholarships or transfers to superior schools and the like. That I think that the pressure of good grades placed upon the youth is a social construct and matters very little compared to the big deal it's made out to be. Especially considering how insignificant high school, middle school and elementary school are.
I've found that the majority of people who perceive this chapter of life as being significant are more often than not the people who enjoyed that time in their life or simply can't let it go. Whether they worked hard during it and realized how little it mattered to their personal definitions of success being unwilling to relinquish the ideas and beliefs they cling onto that have been taught to them from a young age, or that they were popular or conformed well to the system and subsequently felt on top of it but then getting regurgitated into the real world kicking and screaming only to realize exactly how different things are than how they've been taught for most of their lives.
I understand that some people have fond memories of their grade school days, but mostly it's a mandatory government paid baby sitting program in my eyes. Even so, I didn't show up half the time and when I was there physically I was totally checked out mentally. In other words it couldn't keep my attention. College has a totally different feel of course, you better show up frequently and be alert, you're paying for it. The teachers don't pester you, because they have no reason to care. Meanwhile, working is another different experience all together. To get a job, radiate confidence and optimism. Express that you're a hard worker and tell the employer everything they want to hear. But more often than not you'll likely be spacing out on the job, because you're doing some meaningless soul crushing task which is the price to pay for living in a society of convenience. In other words, your social skills have more to do with securing a job than your education does.
But this is getting tangential.
I don't know if you agree with any of the things I said, but I agree with what you said.
Nov 18, 2014 7:06 AM #1270259
I don't think i was clear because most of your answer isn't exactly what i was looking for.
What i mean is.
Schools constantly tell children to go to college or they'll regret it because they can't get a good well paying job.
Community College was my choice because my grades werent good in highschool so literally no universities were accepting me what so ever. So i was forced to Community college by my parents because a highschool diploma wasnt enough. I'm actually wealthy so paying for school isn't a problem, but me getting into a university was the problem.
Anyways, America is really shooting for making the well paying jobs require college education to get more people to go to college, more people to give them money, and to look overall smarter to the world. Issue is Universities look at a Highschool GPA or SAT to admit students to their college. Community Colleges don't really need anything because they're just places to throw money. I'm in Texas, and during my brothers training, they told us that soon to be a police officer you must have a college education. A lot of jobs that will get enough income to support a family require college education, too bad all that wasn't accounted for as a child to get into an actual university.
I personally want a job in technology, but most require again, a college education in that field, which I don't have, and cannot obtain
What i mean is.
Schools constantly tell children to go to college or they'll regret it because they can't get a good well paying job.
Community College was my choice because my grades werent good in highschool so literally no universities were accepting me what so ever. So i was forced to Community college by my parents because a highschool diploma wasnt enough. I'm actually wealthy so paying for school isn't a problem, but me getting into a university was the problem.
Anyways, America is really shooting for making the well paying jobs require college education to get more people to go to college, more people to give them money, and to look overall smarter to the world. Issue is Universities look at a Highschool GPA or SAT to admit students to their college. Community Colleges don't really need anything because they're just places to throw money. I'm in Texas, and during my brothers training, they told us that soon to be a police officer you must have a college education. A lot of jobs that will get enough income to support a family require college education, too bad all that wasn't accounted for as a child to get into an actual university.
I personally want a job in technology, but most require again, a college education in that field, which I don't have, and cannot obtain
Nov 18, 2014 7:25 AM #1270263
As a college student, I feel like I can provide some perspective on it.
The reason most of the "high" tier colleges/universities look at grades is because, as a higher tier center for higher education, the things you'll be expected to learn and will be of a higher degree. It's essentially "honors courses vs regular courses." It's harder, they expect more of you, and it ends up looking fancier. That isn't to say they're inherently better, it just means that learning from there is a more quality education. If you couldn't handle the lower parts of the educational system, how can they expect you to handle theirs? Yes, they still want money, and they'll get some from all the application fees they charge, but if you're only going to be there one term and drop out, it can actually cost them money. Obviously, not a huge amount, but any loss is still a loss.
As for well-paying jobs requiring a college education, that's partially because there's less for the job to teach you, as you've already shown competence in the field. For example, I'm seeking to get my Master's Degree in Culinary Arts and Food Services. My degree, as well as the reputation of the college I'm going to, means that I'll have a good chance of getting a job in the food industry for a decent pay. This doesn't guarantee me a career, however, as there will be requirements outside of simply "knowing what I'm doing." Namely, life experience and references. I'm lucky in that there are two high paying companies that seek students from my college specifically, but yeah, I can still lose out on a job to somebody who has cooked longer and for more reputable employers.
Also, community college isn't inherently worse than a big name university. It's got essentially the same curriculum, it's just smaller and more geared towards those who haven't been in school for a while. I went to community college for a while, and a majority of the people there were adults who wanted to get a degree to change careers. And they were some amazing people. Here at my university, a majority of us still under 23, and some of these people aren't entirely sure they're going to stick with their current Majors. A degree is a degree. Reputation doesn't always equate quality. If you really don't feel community college is enough, it is possible to transfer to a higher institute once you've gone through some classes and gotten yourself a decent GPA. As Hew and Jutsu said, once you're in college, High School GPA means nothing. And, just to reiterate, community college is still college, and still gets you a degree.
The reason most of the "high" tier colleges/universities look at grades is because, as a higher tier center for higher education, the things you'll be expected to learn and will be of a higher degree. It's essentially "honors courses vs regular courses." It's harder, they expect more of you, and it ends up looking fancier. That isn't to say they're inherently better, it just means that learning from there is a more quality education. If you couldn't handle the lower parts of the educational system, how can they expect you to handle theirs? Yes, they still want money, and they'll get some from all the application fees they charge, but if you're only going to be there one term and drop out, it can actually cost them money. Obviously, not a huge amount, but any loss is still a loss.
As for well-paying jobs requiring a college education, that's partially because there's less for the job to teach you, as you've already shown competence in the field. For example, I'm seeking to get my Master's Degree in Culinary Arts and Food Services. My degree, as well as the reputation of the college I'm going to, means that I'll have a good chance of getting a job in the food industry for a decent pay. This doesn't guarantee me a career, however, as there will be requirements outside of simply "knowing what I'm doing." Namely, life experience and references. I'm lucky in that there are two high paying companies that seek students from my college specifically, but yeah, I can still lose out on a job to somebody who has cooked longer and for more reputable employers.
Also, community college isn't inherently worse than a big name university. It's got essentially the same curriculum, it's just smaller and more geared towards those who haven't been in school for a while. I went to community college for a while, and a majority of the people there were adults who wanted to get a degree to change careers. And they were some amazing people. Here at my university, a majority of us still under 23, and some of these people aren't entirely sure they're going to stick with their current Majors. A degree is a degree. Reputation doesn't always equate quality. If you really don't feel community college is enough, it is possible to transfer to a higher institute once you've gone through some classes and gotten yourself a decent GPA. As Hew and Jutsu said, once you're in college, High School GPA means nothing. And, just to reiterate, community college is still college, and still gets you a degree.
Nov 18, 2014 7:48 AM #1270264
Pin, if Scarecrow was here, this is what he's going to say: If you want to get into Technology (I'm assuming it's IT), then the best way to learn is to do it yourself because college education on that matter is bullshit. Whatever you learn there becomes inapplicable for the next 5 years which guess what is how long college actually is. Everything you need you can learn on the Internet, Books, etc. Now okay, you're going to say that it doesn't matter if you learn it that way once the time comes companies are going to look for that college degree which you know doesn't exist for you.
That is just bullshit. There are many roads to success. Forget about what society requires of you first and just try and focus on getting a portfolio. After your meticulous self-training, take on freelancing/small jobs and build up a repertoire. And then there's always Certifications---nifty little useless things that sort of work like College Degrees but require you to do some work to be recognized as a hireable programmer. Or whatever it is you want to be.
My point is, not being able to do college is not the end of the world just because you 'fucked up' as a kid. The truth is, these colleges just want your money and they're making it difficult to avoid by creating standards that normal businesses adhere to. There's a very easy way to make a college exclusive: 1) Invite everyone. 2) Reject 95% of the applicants. Boom. What's going to run through every parent's head: "OMG I MY SON HAS TO MAKE IT. If he does, that means he was chosen our of millions who couldn't. I am doing a great thing for him. TAKE MY MONEY!" And I know that college has its merits as well, it's just that in the greater scheme of things it's not really important to secure a future with.
Now I feel that to really answer your questions you need to watch something to get a bit of background. Penn & Teller Bullshit is a nice easy romp that explains mostly why college shouldn't be a thing you should be worried about. But I'm not saying that you should religiously take up this stance. Watch the video, then draw your own conclusions. I just feel that you need to have a basis for what me and Jutsu are trying to say: Part 1 | Part 2
That is just bullshit. There are many roads to success. Forget about what society requires of you first and just try and focus on getting a portfolio. After your meticulous self-training, take on freelancing/small jobs and build up a repertoire. And then there's always Certifications---nifty little useless things that sort of work like College Degrees but require you to do some work to be recognized as a hireable programmer. Or whatever it is you want to be.
My point is, not being able to do college is not the end of the world just because you 'fucked up' as a kid. The truth is, these colleges just want your money and they're making it difficult to avoid by creating standards that normal businesses adhere to. There's a very easy way to make a college exclusive: 1) Invite everyone. 2) Reject 95% of the applicants. Boom. What's going to run through every parent's head: "OMG I MY SON HAS TO MAKE IT. If he does, that means he was chosen our of millions who couldn't. I am doing a great thing for him. TAKE MY MONEY!" And I know that college has its merits as well, it's just that in the greater scheme of things it's not really important to secure a future with.
Now I feel that to really answer your questions you need to watch something to get a bit of background. Penn & Teller Bullshit is a nice easy romp that explains mostly why college shouldn't be a thing you should be worried about. But I'm not saying that you should religiously take up this stance. Watch the video, then draw your own conclusions. I just feel that you need to have a basis for what me and Jutsu are trying to say: Part 1 | Part 2
Nov 18, 2014 10:26 AM #1270284
Should college be as important to live a successful life as America wants it to be
"Success" is not the same for everyone. A garbage man can be successful because it was his dream to live a simple life of picking up trash. A teacher can be successful, because despite the low pay and high work, they fulfill their dream of helping the younger generation. And of course a business man can be successful because he earns tonnes of cash. Each of these scenarios I described are mutually exclusive (obviously there will be an overlap in other jobs but bear with me). Simplicity, support, savings. If what you are saying is true, then America is only focusing on the very last factor. Do what you love and what your heart tells you; your passion will influence the level of education you require and also how well you will do.
Should college be extremely expensive to stay enrolled or should it be a cheaper price, or public like highschool, with the ability to leave if you feel it isn't for you?
Colleges are expensive because of demand. You can't have quality and quantity without the money (source). In this day and age, everyone wants a college degree because there is evidence to suggest that it will lead to higher pay and greater likelihood of employment (source). With each increasing level of education from highschool, then associates degree, then bachelors, etc (refer to previous source for a chart), it is inversely proportional to unemployment and proportional to earnings. It makes you more competitive and is more desirable to an employer. However since more and more people are obtaining a minimum of a bachelors degree, the worth of this degree is weaker (source). I remember a person saying to me that once upon a time, a bachelors degree would almost guarantee you a job. But now you need something like a masters. The bachelors just allows you to compete.
Schools constantly tell children to go to college or they'll regret it because they can't get a good well paying job.
As said previously, if you equate success to money, then this is true. However, just going to college (and where you go) will not guarantee that you will earn money. It is about the course you are studying and the job you are after; you need a plan. Different jobs will have different levels of competition and earnings; regardless of whether they put the same amount of time into it. For example a law student can expect to earn more then either an engineering or science student (source). And obviously, jobs like a doctor for example, will need you to go through the system regardless. Yes I am aware of these Mark Zuckerbergs and Bill Gates, but there are some jobs that require extremely rigorous testing.
I'd also like to point out that employers do look out for things like GPA. I'm not saying that other factors don't count like extracurricular activities, but grades are important (source). They are an easy means of short listing applicants for an interview for example, and of course a way to choose who will most likely succeed in a graduate program.
EDIT: Oh, I also wanted to add. Going to university you will amass HUGE student loans. So if you go just to get a piece of paper for the sake of getting a piece of paper, GTFO. I'm doing a bachelors of science which equates to around $30,000, then I plan on doing a doctors of physiotherapy which is $100,000 (source). Fucking hell, I will be in debt for a long time....
EDIT: One other thing. Jutsu said highschool "means nothing in the real world". I agree to an extent. In Australia, highschool goes from year 7 to 12. From 7 to 10, your grades don't really matter at all and will have no effect on your ability to get into a university. I agree with you Jutsu here on an aspect of highschool that has no effect on real life. Year 11 to 12 however, you better get your ass into gear. The marks you earn in year 11 and 12 are what get you into university and contribute to your ATAR (a score that ranks you to all the other students in the country from 1 to 99.95; 99.95 being the best of the best, 1 being the shittiest of the shit). Now I haven't found any evidence for this, but I am willing to bet that if you done shit from year 7 to 10, it will probably correlate to how well you do in your final years. You see, while you may forget the content that was taught in each of these subjects, you refine your study and learning habits year after year. Each subject will require its own approach, some may find it and do well, others don't find this approach. So by the end of highschool, you will have a set of skills that can be translated to university. This quantity, the ATAR, while not entirely accurate, is a gauge of whether or not you were able to pick these skills up.
I assume that by "real world" you mean part of a workforce, so I will consider university as not part of the "real world". By the time you reach university, you will further refine these study and learning techniques and discover new ones, consequently affecting your academic success and landing of a job. So while these aspects you learnt in highschool may not be directly applicable to the "real world", they are a foundation in which things are continually built on to reach the job you will have in the "real world".
Of course, getting a bad score is not the end of the world, and there are pathways to get to where you want to get. It is just that if you do get a bad score, it may be an indicator that you just weren't ready and so the institution would not see you as a great investment. Schools and universities do indeed boast the success of their students because obviously this would be great for their reputation and attract more enrollments.
Nov 24, 2014 6:57 PM #1273354
High School does not mean shit in the real world, don't even act like it does. Everyone who is an adult, that is not in an Ivy league college will have similar fuck around stories. All high school does is see who goes straight into a four year school and who has to route through community college. Once you step foot into college high school become irrelevant unless you have to check a box stating that you only have a high school diploma. That is it. No one cares about grades, if anything employers care about sharing similar glory stories with how cool you were back in the good ole days.
First of all, with the government paying for most college educations, and colleges adjusting their prices because the government is footing the bill, yes, college is becoming more standard and just as important as a high school diploma ten years ago. That is true. If you want to make 60k+ per year you will need an associates at least. That might sound like a lot of money, but it really isn't in terms of being a grown up. If you want to get into the IT field, then I applaud you because that's an excellent choice. Get Security+, Network+, and CCNA certifications and you will be better than anyone coming out of college without them. I promise. You can even study the information and learn them on your own if you manage to get a copy of Cisco's Packet Tracer program. I could go on forever about routing and switching because that's what I do, so I'll get back on topic <3
As far as community college, be happy that you're there, and don't succumb the stupidity. I felt dumb as fuck when I was in community college, lost interest, failed some classes, and dropped out. It wasn't for me, but it is good if you're focused and have the self-motivation for it. I wish I could go back and redo it to be honest. Community college credit hours are much cheaper than four year institutes, so you will save a lot of money if the credit hours you're going for and transferable to whatever four year college you want to go to. This will come in handy since you will be paying for it more than likely out of pocket. Still, fill out the FAFSA and apply for any grants or scholarships because some money is better than no money. Take advantage of community college.
Get a job related to the field of study you're going for. Experience is more important than education. My cousin has a masters degree and is working a minimum wage job because he has 8 years of school with 0 experience in the field. That's a no-go. If you have a bachelors and two years experience in the IT field, then you will have references and experience to back up your knowledge and help you land a better job. You should check out some state jobs too. Most IT jobs that require little to no education or experience often require you to do dumb shit like hook up printers and troubleshoot minor computer errors that any moderate computer user would know how to fix. It's not that hard, and you can make good money doing it if you can get in with the state or federal government.
Speaking of federal government, if you haven't already, consider the military as an option. You have all the opportunities in the world to save money (fuck they teach you how to manage your money, that class is mandatory). They give you an education, and you get a ton of hands on experience doing it. Not to mention the benefits during and after are amazing. I'll enlighten you on my situation. I enlisted for four years as a 25N (This is the MOS you want if you decide to join and want to get into IT and Networking). Currently I'm deployed, which means I'm getting twice as much money, not paying taxes at all, and getting double work time experience (1 year deployed = 2 years experience for a resume). After 12 months from graduating AIT, you are eligible for tuition assistance, which currently is $4,500 per semester while you're in the army. There is also the G.I Bill for when you get out which is about $54,000 for college. I'm pocketing about $1500 a month right now after all of my bills are paid, and I doubled up on my car payment. If you are not married, and have no kids, I would consider joining the military or the reserves (They get benefits as well and work one weekend per month and two weeks during the summer). If you do consider the Army, look into either a 25N or a 25B. Bravo's are more specified with the Cisco portion, so that will probably help you out more in the civilian world with basic networking. I know a guy that is in the reserves, and while in AIT (6 months for my MOS), got CCNA, Security+, and Network+ certified (the army pays for you to take the tests, you just have to pay for books). He's right now still in the reserves getting that paycheck, going to college for a degree in all of the free time he has, and working a job making over $60,000 a year. The military opens up a lot of doors, but it isn't for everyone.
So to answer your questions, yes, life will be harder without college and you will more than likely regret it. The reason the good paying jobs require college education is because of what Hewitt said, and how it reflects on the company's image. They want the absolute best. This is how the military teaches us how to look at life: Since the day you graduated and your actual life started, you've begun competing with everyone you know that went to your school, everyone from other schools in your state, and other schools in the country. Everyone in the class of 2014 is now competing against you for the job. In the real world, it's all about the Resume. Whoever looks the best on paper will get the phone call for the interview. Whoever is the best people person and most knowledgeable in the interview will land the job. If ten people apply for a job that has 2 open positions, four of them have a college degree, and you do not, you probably won't even be called in for an interview unless you have some sort of work related experience, and that doesn't even guarantee you the job. You have to make yourself better than everyone around you, because you never know who you're going up against. People who you think are your friends will do everything they can to make sure they get the job and you don't if it comes to that. A perfect example is me in basic training. I didn't take PT tests seriously. So I failed the second one we had, out of four (fourth being the only one that 'counted'). At the end of basic training, they announced they would promote four people who met certain criteria. I did better on my last PT test than all four people who got promoted, but because I failed one test they didn't care about any other criteria. I was automatically eliminated. Get an education, get degree field experience, and get in good with important people. You will have to build a professional Resume one day, and it's going to have to be better than mine <3
Quote from PinI don't think i was clear because most of your answer isn't exactly what i was looking for.
What i mean is.
Schools constantly tell children to go to college or they'll regret it because they can't get a good well paying job.
Community College was my choice because my grades werent good in highschool so literally no universities were accepting me what so ever. So i was forced to Community college by my parents because a highschool diploma wasnt enough. I'm actually wealthy so paying for school isn't a problem, but me getting into a university was the problem.
Anyways, America is really shooting for making the well paying jobs require college education to get more people to go to college, more people to give them money, and to look overall smarter to the world. Issue is Universities look at a Highschool GPA or SAT to admit students to their college. Community Colleges don't really need anything because they're just places to throw money. I'm in Texas, and during my brothers training, they told us that soon to be a police officer you must have a college education. A lot of jobs that will get enough income to support a family require college education, too bad all that wasn't accounted for as a child to get into an actual university.
I personally want a job in technology, but most require again, a college education in that field, which I don't have, and cannot obtain
First of all, with the government paying for most college educations, and colleges adjusting their prices because the government is footing the bill, yes, college is becoming more standard and just as important as a high school diploma ten years ago. That is true. If you want to make 60k+ per year you will need an associates at least. That might sound like a lot of money, but it really isn't in terms of being a grown up. If you want to get into the IT field, then I applaud you because that's an excellent choice. Get Security+, Network+, and CCNA certifications and you will be better than anyone coming out of college without them. I promise. You can even study the information and learn them on your own if you manage to get a copy of Cisco's Packet Tracer program. I could go on forever about routing and switching because that's what I do, so I'll get back on topic <3
As far as community college, be happy that you're there, and don't succumb the stupidity. I felt dumb as fuck when I was in community college, lost interest, failed some classes, and dropped out. It wasn't for me, but it is good if you're focused and have the self-motivation for it. I wish I could go back and redo it to be honest. Community college credit hours are much cheaper than four year institutes, so you will save a lot of money if the credit hours you're going for and transferable to whatever four year college you want to go to. This will come in handy since you will be paying for it more than likely out of pocket. Still, fill out the FAFSA and apply for any grants or scholarships because some money is better than no money. Take advantage of community college.
Get a job related to the field of study you're going for. Experience is more important than education. My cousin has a masters degree and is working a minimum wage job because he has 8 years of school with 0 experience in the field. That's a no-go. If you have a bachelors and two years experience in the IT field, then you will have references and experience to back up your knowledge and help you land a better job. You should check out some state jobs too. Most IT jobs that require little to no education or experience often require you to do dumb shit like hook up printers and troubleshoot minor computer errors that any moderate computer user would know how to fix. It's not that hard, and you can make good money doing it if you can get in with the state or federal government.
Speaking of federal government, if you haven't already, consider the military as an option. You have all the opportunities in the world to save money (fuck they teach you how to manage your money, that class is mandatory). They give you an education, and you get a ton of hands on experience doing it. Not to mention the benefits during and after are amazing. I'll enlighten you on my situation. I enlisted for four years as a 25N (This is the MOS you want if you decide to join and want to get into IT and Networking). Currently I'm deployed, which means I'm getting twice as much money, not paying taxes at all, and getting double work time experience (1 year deployed = 2 years experience for a resume). After 12 months from graduating AIT, you are eligible for tuition assistance, which currently is $4,500 per semester while you're in the army. There is also the G.I Bill for when you get out which is about $54,000 for college. I'm pocketing about $1500 a month right now after all of my bills are paid, and I doubled up on my car payment. If you are not married, and have no kids, I would consider joining the military or the reserves (They get benefits as well and work one weekend per month and two weeks during the summer). If you do consider the Army, look into either a 25N or a 25B. Bravo's are more specified with the Cisco portion, so that will probably help you out more in the civilian world with basic networking. I know a guy that is in the reserves, and while in AIT (6 months for my MOS), got CCNA, Security+, and Network+ certified (the army pays for you to take the tests, you just have to pay for books). He's right now still in the reserves getting that paycheck, going to college for a degree in all of the free time he has, and working a job making over $60,000 a year. The military opens up a lot of doors, but it isn't for everyone.
So to answer your questions, yes, life will be harder without college and you will more than likely regret it. The reason the good paying jobs require college education is because of what Hewitt said, and how it reflects on the company's image. They want the absolute best. This is how the military teaches us how to look at life: Since the day you graduated and your actual life started, you've begun competing with everyone you know that went to your school, everyone from other schools in your state, and other schools in the country. Everyone in the class of 2014 is now competing against you for the job. In the real world, it's all about the Resume. Whoever looks the best on paper will get the phone call for the interview. Whoever is the best people person and most knowledgeable in the interview will land the job. If ten people apply for a job that has 2 open positions, four of them have a college degree, and you do not, you probably won't even be called in for an interview unless you have some sort of work related experience, and that doesn't even guarantee you the job. You have to make yourself better than everyone around you, because you never know who you're going up against. People who you think are your friends will do everything they can to make sure they get the job and you don't if it comes to that. A perfect example is me in basic training. I didn't take PT tests seriously. So I failed the second one we had, out of four (fourth being the only one that 'counted'). At the end of basic training, they announced they would promote four people who met certain criteria. I did better on my last PT test than all four people who got promoted, but because I failed one test they didn't care about any other criteria. I was automatically eliminated. Get an education, get degree field experience, and get in good with important people. You will have to build a professional Resume one day, and it's going to have to be better than mine <3
Nov 25, 2014 1:43 AM #1273434
As someone in college while in the working world in management, I can tell you that college education does not mean as much as it used to. There are far too many people graduating and over-saturating the market. The MOST important thing for most jobs nowadays is experience and a good work ethic. Unless you have ambitions of going in to a specialized field, most employers don't care where you went to school. You're stressing yourself out over nothing. There are so many college grads out there working in fast food or working jobs that aren't in their field. Focus on getting as much experience as possible. Get noticed by your employers as that employee who is always jumping to help, keeping busy and being professional. Moving up in the workplace and gaining experience is going to get you more places than a college degree. You don't need all that debt.
You should watch "The Ivory Tower". It highlights the faults in the American school system. I'm all for community college, personally. College would be so much more affordable if the education system stopped focusing so much on building these impressive fancy schools with huge recreational centers and lounge areas and dorms and all that. That's why college is so expensive. Because people are paying for the "all American college experience." They're paying to party and lounge around. There was a study showing that many full-time college students spend only 5 hours a WEEK on studying. Community college is less prestigious and less pretty yes, but that doesn't mean that it's shit. Most states have programs where you can get your associates degree at a community college and have an easier time transferring in to another 4 year college if you really want a degree. It'll help you save money. I went to community college and then transferred into a really great distance learning program that is allowing me to save SO much money.
Don't rush in to college. Think about what it is you really want to do. If you really want to get a degree, find cost effective options so that you don't come out of it with a huge amount of debt. And make sure it's a degree that's really going to give you the kind of knowledge that you'll need to succeed in life. Business is always a good one. It's always handy to have business knowledge and if there's a degree that increases your chances of being hired, that's it.
You should watch "The Ivory Tower". It highlights the faults in the American school system. I'm all for community college, personally. College would be so much more affordable if the education system stopped focusing so much on building these impressive fancy schools with huge recreational centers and lounge areas and dorms and all that. That's why college is so expensive. Because people are paying for the "all American college experience." They're paying to party and lounge around. There was a study showing that many full-time college students spend only 5 hours a WEEK on studying. Community college is less prestigious and less pretty yes, but that doesn't mean that it's shit. Most states have programs where you can get your associates degree at a community college and have an easier time transferring in to another 4 year college if you really want a degree. It'll help you save money. I went to community college and then transferred into a really great distance learning program that is allowing me to save SO much money.
Don't rush in to college. Think about what it is you really want to do. If you really want to get a degree, find cost effective options so that you don't come out of it with a huge amount of debt. And make sure it's a degree that's really going to give you the kind of knowledge that you'll need to succeed in life. Business is always a good one. It's always handy to have business knowledge and if there's a degree that increases your chances of being hired, that's it.
Nov 25, 2014 3:13 AM #1273461
Quote from FireflyAs someone in college while in the working world in management, I can tell you that college education does not mean as much as it used to. There are far too many people graduating and over-saturating the market. The MOST important thing for most jobs nowadays is experience and a good work ethic. Unless you have ambitions of going in to a specialized field, most employers don't care where you went to school. You're stressing yourself out over nothing. There are so many college grads out there working in fast food or working jobs that aren't in their field. Focus on getting as much experience as possible. Get noticed by your employers as that employee who is always jumping to help, keeping busy and being professional. Moving up in the workplace and gaining experience is going to get you more places than a college degree. You don't need all that debt.
You should watch "The Ivory Tower". It highlights the faults in the American school system. I'm all for community college, personally. College would be so much more affordable if the education system stopped focusing so much on building these impressive fancy schools with huge recreational centers and lounge areas and dorms and all that. That's why college is so expensive. Because people are paying for the "all American college experience." They're paying to party and lounge around. There was a study showing that many full-time college students spend only 5 hours a WEEK on studying. Community college is less prestigious and less pretty yes, but that doesn't mean that it's shit. Most states have programs where you can get your associates degree at a community college and have an easier time transferring in to another 4 year college if you really want a degree. It'll help you save money. I went to community college and then transferred into a really great distance learning program that is allowing me to save SO much money.
Don't rush in to college. Think about what it is you really want to do. If you really want to get a degree, find cost effective options so that you don't come out of it with a huge amount of debt. And make sure it's a degree that's really going to give you the kind of knowledge that you'll need to succeed in life. Business is always a good one. It's always handy to have business knowledge and if there's a degree that increases your chances of being hired, that's it.
Firefly is right, and that's why she's more than a kind of somewhat pretty (if you're into that) face.
But jokes aside, don't worry. It's better to have to step-up your education than be too stepped-up already and have to downsize.
Nov 25, 2014 5:58 PM #1273677
Just wanna pop in real quick because I'm noticing that the main catch for not going to College is not being recognized as experienced on a subject simply because you lack a degree to "prove" it.
A few facts according to the The Center for College Affordability and Productivity:
48% of employed US college graduates are working in a job, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, that requires less than a four-year degree. Worse, 37% are working in occupations that require no more that a high-school diploma. Half of college graduates wasted all that time, money, and effort for something that ended up not even being applicable (clear-cut evidence of this statement), and a little over one in every three college grads are working somewhere that some kid walking out of high school could get.
Now my argument against the "job recognizing your degree" catch:
Google. Check out this article. Google prefers college dropouts over college grads because straight-A college grads lack "intellectual humility." Which, simply put, is having your intellect fail you in a situation and now you have to accept the consequences and deal with them to overcome the problem. Google believes those that have sat in a classroom for 4-8 years and finally passed have felt the feeling of success enough to the point that they have forgotten the feeling of failure. Thus, when they actually come across difficulties, their knee-jerk reaction is "It's someone else's fault" or "I didn't have the resources required to solve it." Where as those that have been passing with Cs and Bs obviously don't have intellectual superiority, but with that lack they make up in capability of still being able to sustain themselves even with that crutch. And I'd prefer survival skills over smarts any day because it transfers when it really matters.
This goes to show that our society is evolving. Slowly but surely employers are starting to recognize in this day and age that College is becoming less of a success-indicator and more as an extended adolescence. Employers are more impressed with a student who, instead of going to College, immediately innovated a new product/business/invention and produced it for others to see, rather than sitting in a classroom being spoon-fed knowledge that you could learn on your own if it was necessary for your sake. I bet soon, this "degree recognition" issue will simmer as a problem.
A few facts according to the The Center for College Affordability and Productivity:
48% of employed US college graduates are working in a job, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, that requires less than a four-year degree. Worse, 37% are working in occupations that require no more that a high-school diploma. Half of college graduates wasted all that time, money, and effort for something that ended up not even being applicable (clear-cut evidence of this statement), and a little over one in every three college grads are working somewhere that some kid walking out of high school could get.
Now my argument against the "job recognizing your degree" catch:
Google. Check out this article. Google prefers college dropouts over college grads because straight-A college grads lack "intellectual humility." Which, simply put, is having your intellect fail you in a situation and now you have to accept the consequences and deal with them to overcome the problem. Google believes those that have sat in a classroom for 4-8 years and finally passed have felt the feeling of success enough to the point that they have forgotten the feeling of failure. Thus, when they actually come across difficulties, their knee-jerk reaction is "It's someone else's fault" or "I didn't have the resources required to solve it." Where as those that have been passing with Cs and Bs obviously don't have intellectual superiority, but with that lack they make up in capability of still being able to sustain themselves even with that crutch. And I'd prefer survival skills over smarts any day because it transfers when it really matters.
This goes to show that our society is evolving. Slowly but surely employers are starting to recognize in this day and age that College is becoming less of a success-indicator and more as an extended adolescence. Employers are more impressed with a student who, instead of going to College, immediately innovated a new product/business/invention and produced it for others to see, rather than sitting in a classroom being spoon-fed knowledge that you could learn on your own if it was necessary for your sake. I bet soon, this "degree recognition" issue will simmer as a problem.
Nov 25, 2014 10:26 PM #1273751
Quote from Sacred]48% of employed US college graduates are working in a job, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, that requires less than a four-year degree. Worse, 37% are working in occupations that require no more that a high-school diploma. Half of college graduates wasted all that time, money, and effort for something that ended up not even being applicable (clear-cut evidence of this statement), and a little over one in every three college grads are working somewhere that some kid walking out of high school could get.[/quote]
well that 37% is part of the original 48%. you can spin it to say that over half of college graduates are working in fields that require a degree and it doesn't look that bad.
plenty of people treat college as the natural extension of high school, pursue a degree with no long-term career path or goals in mind, and don't make any effort to pursue useful connections during their schooling. surprisingly these people don't benefit from a college education in most cases.
plenty of other people go to college to obtain a degree that will enable them to pursue realistic, long-term goals, and those are the ones who benefit from it.
both people are represented in those statistics in fairly even numbers, if you lump them both as "college graduates" you can support both sides of the argument with the same data. yes, a big percentage of graduates don't make use of their degrees, but that doesn't automatically say anything about the value of the degree itself.
[QUOTE=SacredThis goes to show that our society is evolving.
not really, it just goes to show Google's hiring practices are relatively unorthodox, which isn't unusual in the tech sector as far as I'm aware. that area of the economy is hardly a microcosm for society as a whole.
there are some career paths where a college degree is a barrier of entry in all cases. some don't require them, but people with degrees may have a better chance of advancing within those fields than non-graduates. some careers don't place any importance on a college education. it really depends on the specific details of what the student plans on doing with their degree and ultimately what they want to do for a living, and I don't see many of you factoring that into your generalizations. not to say that they're wrong, plenty of good points have been brought up, but I think it should be clear that most of this stuff doesn't necessarily apply to everyone considering a college education.
Nov 25, 2014 10:46 PM #1273757
My statement was not necessarily made to suggest College is entirely irrelevant. Rather to state that almost half of college graduates, people who spent multiple years and multiple tens of thousands of dollars, in order to acquire a degree ended up not having it be applicable. It's pretty hard to believe that half of college students willing to go through all that time and actually graduate college would then, post-school life, not give an effort to make their future. I have a firm believe that the majority of that 48% attempted and this is the result they came up with relying on their degree as a means to achieving success. If someone were to come up to me and suggest 52% of college graduates did actually achieve jobs that require degree, I'd first say ONLY 52%? And then would proceed to show them this chart:
Good job getting that job. Now you gotta wait 20 years to finally be able to use all of that money you're making from it on what you want comfortably.
Google is not the only company out there doing this. Apple does this as well. And plenty of others. I name those two because I myself am involved in tech and that's where my interests lie. But I can guarantee you many other fields where you can actually be successful and comfortably live the way you choose to offer employment options that don't require you to have gone through College. Plus if you haven't noticed, plenty of jobs are now offering with a requirement stating something along the lines of, "This kind of degree OR this many years of experience." I only stated Google because not only are they recognized for great employee satisfaction ratings, they are also clearly one of the most successful companies in the world. And their philosophy on hiring practices correlate with that.
Good job getting that job. Now you gotta wait 20 years to finally be able to use all of that money you're making from it on what you want comfortably.
Quote from Exilementnot really, it just goes to show Google's hiring practices are relatively unorthodox, which isn't unusual in the tech sector as far as I'm aware. that area of the economy is hardly a microcosm for society as a whole.
there are some career paths where a college degree is a barrier of entry in all cases. some don't require them, but people with degrees may have a better chance of advancing within those fields than non-graduates. some careers don't place any importance on a college education. it really depends on the specific details of what the student plans on doing with their degree and ultimately what they want to do for a living, and I don't see many of you factoring that into your generalizations. not to say that they're wrong, plenty of good points have been brought up, but I think it should be clear that most of this stuff doesn't necessarily apply to everyone considering a college education.
Google is not the only company out there doing this. Apple does this as well. And plenty of others. I name those two because I myself am involved in tech and that's where my interests lie. But I can guarantee you many other fields where you can actually be successful and comfortably live the way you choose to offer employment options that don't require you to have gone through College. Plus if you haven't noticed, plenty of jobs are now offering with a requirement stating something along the lines of, "This kind of degree OR this many years of experience." I only stated Google because not only are they recognized for great employee satisfaction ratings, they are also clearly one of the most successful companies in the world. And their philosophy on hiring practices correlate with that.
Nov 25, 2014 11:35 PM #1273779
I guess my point was that there are multitudes of factors that determine which side of the 48%/52% you wind up on and you're making it sound like a student can do absolutely everything right and still face a roughly 50/50 shot of failing to do anything with their degree.
not to say that it never happens, though. I just think statistics like these require way more context than they tend to get.
not to say that it never happens, though. I just think statistics like these require way more context than they tend to get.