Want to add something concerning this.

Not being able to target the walls is meant to prevent rushing from being too easy, basically. So add a couple of bars of health to them and make them targetable. It worked for this long but now it's time to do the right thing and improve your game, bros.

Another pointless waste of 10 min: www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay7966981&version=2.22

Officially last comment regardless what responses there are.

Forgive me for any offensive text in the previous thread concerning this matter.

Thanks for reading

P.S. every time I lose a game I should have won I feel the need to come back to this forum and post hahaha

P.P.S. I've posted 5 replays but in reality I've probably lost ~30 games due to this flaw (frequently to weaker players).

...How about changing your strategy?

Thing is, bugs aren't inherently bad. Bug defined as unintentional can quickly become a 'feature'. I think I am right in saying animation cancelling in this game was never originally intended, and yet this 'bug' makes crawlers and archer the micro heavy units that they are. When I refer to the walls being protected by a single unit standing in front of them as a mechanic, I'm not saying the thing is intended that way, I'm saying it works that way and actually it's a nice feature to the game.

Walls aren't too weak anyway, their hp could be 2 bars less and they would still work well, because you put a spear in shield mode in front of that wall and tank with the spear - the wall is just there to stop people running past your spear.

The bug with units doing nothing but 'running' when you tell them to walk behind a wall is an annoying one, and I hope that can be fixed so that unit AI receives it instead as an autoattack the wall command, but the mechanic with ranged damage being blockable by a single spear in front of a wall is what makes turtles possible to set up. The turtle existing is what gives some depth to the game, and nerfing walls in this way would make turtles fail to be viable for most scenarios. Adding the 'missing feature' would take away depth, hence I refer to that wall 'bug' as a feature.

I indeed agree that you have 'Another pointless waste of 10 min: http://www.stickempires.com/play?rep...1&version=2.22' and that is because you are spear massing.

Why do you keep right clicking wall? In a replay they targeted the wall then you clicked again so they lost their target.

We said we weren't going to comment anymore on this clear flaw, didn't we? ;)

I found a new addition to this already great flaw - check out this replay:

www.stickempires.com/play?replay=replay7993703&version=2.22

Units (flying things) stop attacking wall as soon as enemy units that were retreating to defend get in range. The clear kicker is that these flyers cannot even attack the enemy units (with the exception of the tornado upgrade which we didn't have anyways). There is really no discussion now. The walls must be made targetable.

Edit*: To be clear i'm not commenting on the original flaw but simply adding new, relevant info to the prior.

This is how it should be. You shouldn't be able to attack a wall when other units are trying to defend it, just like you can't attack an archer behind a spearton.

Cycloids are not suitable for diving into the enemy base anyway.

Sure they are I'm beating 1900's massing cycloids right now. Will it work later on? No. But at the 1800's, it works.

Furthermore cycloids can't attack spears anyways. If anyone thinks that it makes sense for them to hover in the air because a giant came into their sight rather than attack the walls, quite frankly, you probably are just butthurt that an 1800 found a flaw that you should have noticed long ago.

Furthermore, units SHOULD be able to attack the wall regardless of units in front. This is not a debatable thing. There is no counter-argument to this proposition.

You're entire argument, literally the entire thing, is based upon one single idea - that this is how the game has been and the walls will be too weak if they are targetable (if you don't believe the walls are too weak, you literally have no point whatsoever, as it's the only way you can even try to make a counter to this).

With that said - for anyone who thinks the walls will be too weak, or "nerfed" - there is a SIMPLE solution - ADD 2 BARS OF HEALTH. Solved. Now we have 2.5 walls compared to the 2 from before - not to mention miners can build more as they are taken down.

And you can clearly tell that you are very, very deluded concerning this matter - regardless of your ranking. Why?

1) Units CAN attack archers behind spears (no idea where you got this from). The only time they ABSOLUTELY can't is when they turtle behind walls that literally can only feasibly be taken down by a magikill IF it can survive (not to mention it takes 2 electric walls just to take down 1 wall), OR
2) Archers can run away when units run past spears (even in shield mode) - walls cannot run away.

Anyone who reads this and still has any doubt, simply do the following thought experiment:

As an intelligent human being put yourself in the position of LITERALLY being in the game. Imagine you are 1 of 26 speartons about to attack the enemy (statue). You get near their base and see there are ONLY 6 speartons blocking the wall that you can easily run past/behind. Now, we know this is a piece of cake, right? 26 speartons are easily enough to take down the walls and the statue even with that magikill that is hiding behind - we know we are in a great position to win. How could our opponent even let our army get this big? We are so powerful.

Now, as a human being we are intelligent and therfore are going to do the most intelligent thing when can - run behind the spears (which we can do) and take down the walls - that is what YOU and I would do as humans.

/thought expiriment

Ask yourself this (rhetorical) question: If we, as intelligent humans (well, we can only speak for ourselves now, can't we? ;) ) clearly would target the walls and run in to the base - WHAT REASON IS THERE IN CONSCIOUSLY CREATING LOWER ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE?

[Rhetorical question] Can you imagine HOW unintelligent 26 speartons would have to be to stand there and get killed when they could fight to take down the walls?

[Question] Picture any movie with a battle scene (great example, Lord of the Rings) - does the enemy WAIT until every single unit defending the castle is dead until breaching the walls?

[Answer] Actually, the OPPOSITE - they breach the walls the VERY MOMENT they are capable (or in a strong enough position) to do so. 10 speartons is a strong enough position to do so, let alone 26!

You might be lazy and adapted to this big flaw for 2 years but that doesn't make it right and it needs to change.

WITH all of that said - there is now no discussion to be had.

There is really nothing more to be said. The original post was right and now it has been discovered that cycloids will literally hover in midair not attacking the walls while being attacked/killed. The point is fully proven and valid and from this moment forward anyone who disagrees is doing a gross disservice to this game for the sake of anti-pride.

[Rhetorical question] When you know the devs are going to read this, how can you possibly justify encouraging them to keep their units LESS intelligent?

[Rhetorical answer] You're right, that is an inconceivable act for any intelligent human - we live in an age where artificial intelligence is continually evolving for the better and I was suggesting for the devs to keep it worse out of sloth - thank you for your insight and great suggestions and posting on the forum to help make this game better. Thank you.

Edit: Took out the medication part as it might offend some readers; forgive me anyone who was offended by that part.

Edit: Oh, now I see what you are doing. First you were completely against this, now admitting it's a clear bug/flaw and now you are manipulating and taking out of context by saying "you can't attack an archer behind a spearton" when you are referring to ONLY ranged units and this entire discussion has been discussing MELEE units (naturally, archers won't be able to attack the wall behind the spearton). That is a very deceitful tactic and it essentially proves that what I'm saying is true - because you have no legitimate counters left and have to resort to this.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

Sure they are I'm beating 1900's massing cycloids right now. Will it work later on? No. But at the 1800's, it works.

Irrelevant.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

Furthermore cycloids can't attack spears anyways. If anyone thinks that it makes sense for them to hover in the air because a giant came into their sight rather than attack the walls, quite frankly, you probably are just butthurt that an 1800 found a flaw that you should have noticed long ago.

If you want people to listen to you then you should really stop with the casual insults. Frankly, it doesn't make sense for cycloids to be able to attack walls any more than spears. They shouldn't be able to attack either unit or they should be able to attack both.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

Furthermore, units SHOULD be able to attack the wall regardless of units in front. This is not a debatable thing. There is no counter-argument to this proposition.

This is silly. You cannot attack things in which other things are in the way. Ranged damage should not be able to go past defending units into walls and nor should melee damage. Why? For the same reasons arrows don't go through units, your spearton mass attack using spears - spears which are visually blocked by defending units in front of the wall. Units should not be able to attack anything unless there is nothing in the way. I have just made a counter argument. Asserting that there is not one is stupid, arguing from lack of disproving evidence, and clearly false.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

Your entire argument, literally the entire thing, is based upon one single idea - that this is how the game has been and the walls will be too weak if they are targetable (if you don't believe the walls are too weak, you literally have no point whatsoever, as it's the only way you can even try to make a counter to this).

You are misrepresenting me entirely, my entire argument is that the walls walls currently work is the best way for the game.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

With that said - for anyone who thinks the walls will be too weak, or "nerfed" - there is a SIMPLE solution - ADD 2 BARS OF HEALTH. Solved. Now we have 2.5 walls compared to the 2 from before - not to mention miners can build more as they are taken down.

That completely misses the point that walls need to be 100% shieldable for turtles to function in the setup. Increase their hp and remove that shielding mechanic and walls don't work to protect miners from attacks anymore. Not solved. The current way is solved.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

And you can clearly tell that you are very, very deluded concerning this matter - regardless of your ranking. Why?

I'd say you're the one being deluded as you continue to completely misrepresent what I have said and choose to ignore entire points I make.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

1) Units CAN attack archers behind spears (no idea where you got this from). The only time they ABSOLUTELY can't is when they turtle behind walls that literally can only feasibly be taken down by a magikill IF it can survive (not to mention it takes 2 electric walls just to take down 1 wall), OR
2) Archers can run away when units run past spears (even in shield mode) - walls cannot run away.

1. Walls can be feasibly taken down by any dps unit - as I have said many times to you already
2. Units can only attack archers behind spears when they have a clear path to reach that archer, and only when they are next to that archer. At that point the spear is no longer in the way.
3. Walls are not meant to move
4. Walls are to be shielded and used to protect enemy units from running past the wall - the wall's health is far less important than the wall's ability to prevent travel across it.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

Anyone who reads this and still has any doubt, simply do the following thought experiment:

Lol

Quote from MustRemainSecret

As an intelligent human being put yourself in the position of LITERALLY being in the game. Imagine you are 1 of 26 speartons about to attack the enemy (statue). You get near their base and see there are ONLY 6 speartons blocking the wall that you can easily run past/behind. Now, we know this is a piece of cake, right? 26 speartons are easily enough to take down the walls and the statue even with that magikill that is hiding behind - we know we are in a great position to win. How could our opponent even let our army get this big? We are so powerful.

Not the point of the AI in the slightest. The AI are not meant to do the smartest thing possible - that's why you control your units in the first place.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

Now, as a human being we are intelligent and therfore are going to do the most intelligent thing when can - run behind the spears (which we can do) and take down the walls - that is what YOU and I would do as humans.

Irrelevant. The most intelligent thing is not the same as the most beneficial to game experience thing.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

Ask yourself this (rhetorical) question: If we, as intelligent humans (well, we can only speak for ourselves now, can't we? ;) ) clearly would target the walls and run in to the base - WHAT REASON IS THERE IN CONSCIOUSLY CREATING LOWER ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE?

The fact that SE units are not intelligent humans and were not meant to be - there would be almost no game left if they were

Quote from MustRemainSecret

[Rhetorical question] Can you imagine HOW unintelligent 26 speartons would have to be to stand there and get killed when they could fight to take down the walls?

About as intelligent as I want units I'm controlling to be. I'm the one to tell my units what to do.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

[Question] Picture any movie with a battle scene (great example, Lord of the Rings) - does the enemy WAIT until every single unit defending the castle is dead until breaching the walls?

Inevitably in some as you have an infinite sample of movies to choose from. Lol. Irrelevant once more.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

[Answer] Actually, the OPPOSITE - they breach the walls the VERY MOMENT they are capable (or in a strong enough position) to do so. 10 speartons is a strong enough position to do so, let alone 26!

The SE units already breach walls the moment they are capable - when the wall is undefended or not defended at the wall's location.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

You might be lazy and adapted to this big flaw for 2 years but that doesn't make it right and it needs to change.

WITH all of that said - there is now no discussion to be had.

Indeed, there is no discussion to be had because this bug is not made right by the fact it's been around for 2 years but instead because this bug makes turtles work and makes walls relevant to the game meta.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

There is really nothing more to be said. The original post was right and now it has been discovered that cycloids will literally hover in midair not attacking the walls while being attacked/killed. The point is fully proven and valid and from this moment forward anyone who disagrees is doing a gross disservice to this game for the sake of anti-pride.

Asserting that you are right is both arrogant and going to make you look stupid when you are proven wrong. Cycloids should only be able to attack statues and giants, you at least have raised a decent point there - though almost by mistake.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

[Rhetorical question] When you know the devs are going to read this, how can you possibly justify encouraging them to keep their units LESS intelligent?

It's a game where I control my units, the units aren't meant to think for themselves and they are meant to have restrictions. Intelligent units wouldn't constrain themselves to such a small z axis for gameplay - but this constraint makes for better gameplay so is used. - Same for wall mechanics.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

[Rhetorical answer] You're right, that is an inconceivable act for any intelligent human - we live in an age where artificial intelligence is continually evolving for the better and I was suggesting for the devs to keep it worse out of sloth - thank you for your insight and great suggestions and posting on the forum to help make this game better. Thank you.

"A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question that is asked in order to make a point, rather than to elicit an answer." Wikipedia
You just made yourself look stupid answering your own rhetorical question. Anyway, moving on.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

Edit: Took out the medication part as it might offend some readers; forgive me anyone who was offended by that part.

Never saw it.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

Edit: Oh, now I see what you are doing. First you were completely against this, now admitting it's a clear bug/flaw and now you are manipulating and taking out of context by saying "you can't attack an archer behind a spearton" when you are referring to ONLY ranged units and this entire discussion has been discussing MELEE units (naturally, archers won't be able to attack the wall behind the spearton). That is a very deceitful tactic and it essentially proves that what I'm saying is true - because you have no legitimate counters left and have to resort to this.

It's a bug sure, a flaw, no.

When spears attack an archer right next to another spear, the spear does not block the archer from taking melee damage.
When spears attack a wall right next to a spear, the wall is blocked from taking meleee damage.

In the first scenario - to go with game realism, the spear fails to body block for the archer
In the second scenario - to go with game realism, the spear is able to body block for the wall because the spear knows where its wall is as that wall never moves - it can block for a target behind it because it knows where that target is despite not seeing it - unlike moving allied archers.

Is this convincing? Hell no am I convinced that game realism is good enough reason, but it proves your point that the mechanics fail to make sense wrong.

I will say it once more, as you continue to ignore my point.
This bug is not made right by the fact it's been around for 2 years but instead because this bug makes turtles work and makes walls relevant to the game meta.

This feature makes walls force the opponent into dealing with the user's army instead of ignoring it completely and going for the statue/miners.

If your army couldn't take down the opponent's army then why should you be able to win via diving their base instead? Your army was inferior and this is a game of armies. Sure, you should be able to try diving their base, and even at high level play this can get you a win - but it's not a gameplay meta that makes for engaging, fun, or enjoyable gameplay and any gameplay change that encourages it will be a backwards step.

inb4 he restates his argument and ignores everything you said while insulting everyone who disagrees

We already said we weren't going to comment again ( ;) ) and then found that cycloids turn backwards just like spears and travel to units behind them to attack rather than continue to attack an undefended wall (particularly, when there is a giant involved, it seems). The spears blocking the wall, actually, is the secondary issue here (or tertiary, if you want to consider the infinite running bug in this which we all agree on) as units undeniably should not be running backwards to retreating opposition units rather than attacking undefended walls (i.e. replay above). I am of the view that the wall should be made targetable and do not believe that even leaving it's health the way it is that it will much hurt order's capability to turtle, let alone adding to them 1-3 bars of health. Essentially nothing you say will change my view, nothing I say will change your view, nothing you've said has changed my view, nothing I've said has changed your view - to you your view and to me my view. Leave the rest up to the devs.

Quote from MustRemainSecret

Officially last comment regardless what responses there are.

You said you weren't gonna reply in your op, but you replied twice now. :p

EDIT: This wikipedia page reminded me of you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:The_Last_Word#How_to_get_the_last_word

I'm just an outsider. I quote from that article:
" NB: If your opponent attempts to seize the last word for themselves, be careful to point out the folly of this strategy, perhaps citing this project page. Alternatively, state that since your opponent loves to get the last word, you will graciously cede it to them. These clever techniques allow you to simultaneously regain the last word for yourself while making any sort of reply from your opponent seem in bad faith. "
You can reply to his post, but expect no response.
Rest assured, I have no argument with you so getting the final word will not affect anything on me.

Quote from IHATETHISNAME

inb4 he restates his argument and ignores everything you said while insulting everyone who disagrees

Yup.

The only part of his arguments I agree with is that cycloids shouldn't derp up around walls - They shouldn't melee walls altogether.

I'm out. You can have the last word for all I care. I've made my point more than clear enough.

What if we let him post his last comment and we won't reply, thus he gets his last word and then the thread will shut down since it seems the only people who actually respond would be Skele, Rain, Ai and me.
If he makes a double post in attempt to bring back the thread, well right there he would be breaking a rule.