I had this argument with my buddy, and I suggested that Prisons should simply turn into manufacturing centers, and would lease out their labor for next to nothing to whoever wanted to produce out of that prison.

You get very cheap labor, The prisoners get technical skills applicable in the real world as well as a little money, the products are made in the United State, and it keeps the inmates from getting too restless.

It sounds like a decent idea.

That would make prisons even more profitable and less focused on rehabilitating the people with problems that are in them and when those prisoners get out, they probably wont be able to get an identical job because of their record. Because of the massive unwarranted and ironic social stigma that comes with being an ex-convict. Giving them even more incentive to simply go back to an easy four walls and a roof/three square meals. And allowing corporations even more access to cheaper alternatives to the minimum wage, even though most can easily pay better wages to their employees.

Just like any other job that prisoners work, the money they earn is usually fed right back into the prison who sells them minor luxury for insane mark ups and for a profit on top of the labor.

When prisons are this profitable the morally bankrupt people owning them are under no obligation to stop the people who get out from coming back in, in fact, it's against their best interests. Which is a huge problem with the abhorrent USA prison system.

You realize that many upright working people would be out of jobs?

I'm talking about super menial shit like how we outsource jobs to Nike.

If anything it'd reduce return rates because you're teaching criminals practical skills, thus mitigating one of the reasons people go to jail in the first palce

Quote from Jutsu

That would make prisons even more profitable and less focused on rehabilitating the people with problems that are in them and when those prisoners get out, they probably wont be able to get an identical job because of their record. Because of the massive unwarranted and ironic social stigma that comes with being an ex-convict. Giving them even more incentive to simply go back to an easy four walls and a roof/three square meals. And allowing corporations even more access to cheaper alternatives to the minimum wage, even though most can easily pay better wages to their employees.

Just like any other job that prisoners work, the money they earn is usually fed right back into the prison who sells them minor luxury for insane mark ups and for a profit on top of the labor.

When prisons are this profitable the morally bankrupt people owning them are under no obligation to stop the people who get out from coming back in, in fact, it's against their best interests. Which is a huge problem with the abhorrent USA prison system.

There's nothing wrong that, it costs an average of around $60 a day if I remember right, to keep EACH inmate in prison. The little money inmates make, isnt forced to be spent there, nor is it in any way the prisons responsibility to keep them from coming back when they get out. There are many, many, programs to assist felons after their release, and it still primarily falls on the individual. Stigma plays a big part in going back like you said, but not in the way you described. It prevents them from getting decent jobs, credit, homes, etc, so many fall back to their old activities which wound them up in prison in the first place. There are a lot of other factors contributing to recidivism as well, its alot more complicated than most people think, but once learned it just seems so obvious.

Cooks idea sounds good on paper, but I think the loss of jobs, as well as the extremely low quality of products made in a prison, would be the two biggest problems. Plus I doubt it would be cost effective for anybody, since all the manufacturing equipment and stuff would have to be built, as well as facilities for working, though would probably depend on whats being made.

Quote from Ashlander

There's nothing wrong that, it costs an average of around $60 a day if I remember right, to keep EACH inmate in prison.

"There's nothing wrong with" what? I'm not sure what part of my post you're talking about here, please clarify for me.
Even if it costs tax payers that money it doesn't cost the private prison owners, actually they get paid for keeping their prisons at maximum capacity.
small article about it that I dug up quickly.

Quote from Ashlander

The little money inmates make, isnt forced to be spent there, nor is it in any way the prisons responsibility to keep them from coming back when they get out.

I don't think what I said about that is invalid, more often than not the money is handed right back over to the prison. Because prison life is far from comfortable and that's not considering inmates getting money put on their book by family which is used for paying for calls or the inmate purchasing things from the prison.
Of course I don't know if any citation for this exists, this is based primarily on my experience with convicts and ex-convicts. Of which I've personally known many. Though that shouldn't be that unlikely considering the fact that America has more than two million prisoners, or a quarter of the worlds prison population. Despite only having five percent of the worlds population.
Or in other words, the most civilians ever imprisoned in the history of humanity.

I never said or implied the bolded. I'm pointing out that since prison is so profitable that it's in their best interests to keep their beds as full as possible.

This is evident by our countries downright embarrassing recidivism rates and how prison privateers lobby to increase sentence times for minor crimes. Especially when compared to countries with vastly superior justice systems like Norway.

Quote from Ashlander

There are many, many, programs to assist felons after their release, and it still primarily falls on the individual.

I'm not entirely certain what you're point is here. Are you insisting that it's acceptable for our in prison programs to be lackluster because there's programs waiting for them when they get out?
Sure there are programs for them, but it's not all good. A lot of these programs are court ordered or require resources such as time, transportation or money *In one way or another* that the ex convict doesn't have. Of course, I've met a small amount of felons who simply ignored these programs and re offended. But I've also known and am even related to felons whom participated in said programs and still re offended. But more often than not these people legitimately need help that they aren't getting, in nor out of prison.

Quote from Ashlander

Stigma plays a big part in going back like you said, but not in the way you described. It prevents them from getting decent jobs, credit, homes, etc, so many fall back to their old activities which wound them up in prison in the first place. There are a lot of other factors contributing to recidivism as well, its alot more complicated than most people think, but once learned it just seems so obvious.

To be fair I didn't describe what I meant by social stigma. Actually we're in total agreement about this, I bolded for exactly how I think said stigma effects these people.

Quote from Ashlander

Cooks idea sounds good on paper, but I think the loss of jobs, as well as the extremely low quality of products made in a prison, would be the two biggest problems. Plus I doubt it would be cost effective for anybody, since all the manufacturing equipment and stuff would have to be built, as well as facilities for working, though would probably depend on whats being made.

You're right and it is, as in, it already is. This is going on right now.
Here's an excerpt from an article

Quote from Snippet

According to the Left Business Observer, the federal prison industry produces 100% of all military helmets, ammunition belts, bullet-proof vests, ID tags, shirts, pants, tents, bags, and canteens. Along with war supplies, prison workers supply 98% of the entire market for equipment assembly services; 93% of paints and paintbrushes; 92% of stove assembly; 46% of body armor; 36% of home appliances; 30% of headphones/microphones/speakers; and 21% of office furniture. Airplane parts, medical supplies, and much more: prisoners are even raising seeing-eye dogs for blind people.

Citation

Instead of interpreting Cook's question as "should we start doing this" I interpreted it as "should we do this on a bigger scale"
I suppose leads to my over-arching point. The limited good that could come from this sort of thing simply pales in comparison to having a better justice system.

one main reason i think this would fail: the prisoners would make purposely faulty parts or food or whatever the factory will produce. if they have life sentences they wont really care what they do next.

Quote from Jutsu

"There's nothing wrong with" what? I'm not sure what part of my post you're talking about here, please clarify for me.
Even if it costs tax payers that money it doesn't cost the private prison owners, actually they get paid for keeping their prisons at maximum capacity.
small article about it that I dug up quickly.

I was referring to the prisons paying low wages for whatever jobs it might provide. The majority of prisons are not privatized, and the government run ones generally do not force the inmates to work.

"In 2007, around $74 billion was spent on corrections.^[139] The total number of inmates in 2007 in federal, state, and local lockups was 2,419,241.^[23] That comes to around $30,600 per inmate."

Keeping inmates is not cheap, if the prison can make some of it's costs back by offering them cheap work, I see no problem with it. The way I see it, if the inmates want to work to earn some extra money for cigarettes, go ahead. If not, sit in your cell, shut up, and think about whatever you did. Keep in mind I'm not including private prisons in anything I say, since they aren't the subject here. I don't know much about them anyway, since we didn't cover them much in my classes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#Cost

Also, I wouldn't take everything that article says at face value. No sources for any of its info is given, and it's said to have been originally posted on some other site, neither of which seem very credible. Some of the info is accurate, some is skewed, such as the 'prison' population being 2 million. The wiki (i know) article is probably the source they used for that, as the numbers given by the article are the same as the totals for prison and jail. However, prison and jail are not the same thing, and jail makes up about a third of the total population. So referencing the total populations for the articles 'prison' pop. was not accurate, and probably intentional by the author to make it sound worse than it is. And seeing as the population stats were the only fact I checked, other info is likely skewed or inaccurate as well.

I don't think what I said about that is invalid, more often than not the money is handed right back over to the prison. Because prison life is far from comfortable and that's not considering inmates getting money put on their book by family which is used for paying for calls or the inmate purchasing things from the prison.
Of course I don't know if any citation for this exists, this is based primarily on my experience with convicts and ex-convicts. Of which I've personally known many. Though that shouldn't be that unlikely considering the fact that America has more than two million prisoners, or a quarter of the worlds prison population. Despite only having five percent of the worlds population.
Or in other words, the most civilians ever imprisoned in the history of humanity.

I don't understand what you were trying to get at here, are you saying the ex-cons you knew gave you the impression it was uncomfortable? It should be far from comfortable. It's a punishment first and foremost, not a hotel. I've had a lot of contact with ex-convicts as well. At my second job last year I was the only non-felon employed (besides management), pretty much because nobody else would do the work. They discussed what prisons they'd attended quite a bit, and all seemed to understand that it's supposed to suck in prison.

I never said or implied the bolded. I'm pointing out that since prison is so profitable that it's in their best interests to keep their beds as full as possible.

"people owning them are under no obligation to stop the people who get out from coming back in"
Sounds a little bit like you implied it.

This is evident by our countries downright embarrassing recidivism rates

Again, you're right about social stigma playing a part in recidivism, but there are many more factors contributing to it than that, and many that I believe have a much bigger impact on the individuals chances.

I'm not entirely certain what you're point is here. Are you insisting that it's acceptable for our in prison programs to be lackluster because there's programs waiting for them when they get out?

My point was that there are programs, organisations, and resources, both government funded and private, specifically designed to help felons re-adapt into society. Sure some may cost in some way, but that doesn't mean it's impossible for them to use it. For example, near one of my properties in St. Paul there's two apartment buildings, specifically for homeless people/convicts, who cant afford their own place. It costs less then $20 per month for an apartment, and while it may have a waiting list, it's still something they can at least eventually use. Every ex-convict has options, its up to them to find them and use them if needed. I would agree that this area could use a little more organisation, making help programs more visible to the relevant convicts when they're released.

Sure there are programs for them, but it's not all good. A lot of these programs are court ordered or require resources such as time, transportation or money *In one way or another* that the ex convict doesn't have.

Time is not really a cost, as most ex-cons that would need these resources, have no jobs, so in turn have plenty of time to spare. Transportation may be difficult, but not impossible. At the company I mentioned earlier, only a handful of the other guys had a drivers license, the rest took the bus, hitched a ride, walked, whatever they needed to do. Money would be the only legit cost setting them back from using a program if it had some sort of fee or monetary cost.

Of course, I've met a small amount of felons who simply ignored these programs and re offended. But I've also known and am even related to felons whom participated in said programs and still re offended. But more often than not these people legitimately need help that they aren't getting, in nor out of prison.

I believe the number of felon's that just ignore any rehabilitation programs, or never bothered looking for help, and therefor ended up re-offending, is much higher that you think, or were led to believe. And in the 'got help but still re-offended' cases you're referring to, I guarantee there were other, likely more prominent, factors contributing to their recidivism.

The limited good that could come from this sort of thing simply pales in comparison to having a better justice system.

I agree on this, in that an improved justice system should be considered before this. But I don't agree that it has a negative effect on the justice system itself, it's more of a negative effect on the outside world in the form of fewer jobs and lower quality goods.

This could actually be a good idea. Establishing a factory scenario would make the prisoners productive by contributing to society and hopefully, it can retract any devious or bad thoughts they might have. Some people are in prison because they needed a way to earn money. This factory experience would give them a feel of being a real worker.

Say we go ahead and implement factory scenarios, how would we monitor them to make sure they don't go corrupt?

You can't rely on inmates preventing such a thing because the inmates won't always be able to speak out about and corruption

Quote from Skeletonxf

Say we go ahead and implement factory scenarios, how would we monitor them to make sure they don't go corrupt?

You can't rely on inmates preventing such a thing because the inmates won't always be able to speak out about and corruption

That's why I said hopefully, it would take away any devious thoughts since their time is being utilized productively. Were you replying to me?

Quote from notthebest

one main reason i think this would fail: the prisoners would make purposely faulty parts or food or whatever the factory will produce. if they have life sentences they wont really care what they do next.

Yeah maybe it would be better to just do that Idea for jail (which is sentences under a year) to prevent them from going to prison in the future.

Quote from Nextris2000

That's why I said hopefully, it would take away any devious thoughts since their time is being utilized productively. Were you replying to me?

Err no, and I was saying utilizing helpless prisoners as a resource will encourage and reward 'devious thoughts'.

Quote from notthebest

one main reason i think this would fail: the prisoners would make purposely faulty parts or food or whatever the factory will produce. if they have life sentences they wont really care what they do next.

Yeah, and you mitigate that problem by not giving the guys with life sentences power tools. Fuck, I'm referring to the massive majority of inmates with minor crimes and just want to make some money.

If a worker produces shit, he loses everything and gets kicked out. You'd be surprised how much worse jail can get.

Quote from Skeletonxf

Say we go ahead and implement factory scenarios, how would we monitor them to make sure they don't go corrupt?

You can't rely on inmates preventing such a thing because the inmates won't always be able to speak out about and corruption

Nigga this isn't Star Wars. It's really easy to monitor how much money you should be taking in if you know how much you're producing, and if money, for some reason, ends up going missing, then those involved get kicked out, they lose all their money, and they get a few years added to their sentence.

Jail isn't some rape dungeon filled with rapists and murderers. It's a normal community for the socially deviant, the the majority of them just want to carry on with their lives, and giving them a chance to be productive, make some money, and earn some technical skills is good enough for them. Shit, a lot of people are in prison because poverty forced them into committing crimes they normally wouldn't of had.

Quote from stickdude74

Yeah maybe it would be better to just do that Idea for jail (which is sentences under a year) to prevent them from going to prison in the future.

This nigga gets it. By teaching these people technical skills that transfer perfectly to the only job that will hire them when they get out, (The only jobs hiring ex-criminals will be manual, menial labor.) You give them a way of life, and a means to grow.

Quote from Skeletonxf

Err no, and I was saying utilizing helpless prisoners as a resource will encourage and reward 'devious thoughts'.

How does running shoelaces through Nike shoes all day with your buddies around you talking and joking encourage "devious thoughts"? The work gives you something to do with friends that's somewhat entertaining and gives you money. If anything it keeps you from doing dumb shit out of boredom.