I have been thinking a lot recently about whether people just being introduced to animation should use simple or advanced programs to learn the basics (most specifically pivot and flash). For simplicity's sake, and to focus on the actual animating part, lets remove the factor of cost as well as losing interest. Could there be some advantage to starting off simple, or is it just best to begin using the tools that allow for your animations to have more potential as early as possible? Do you think that learning basic principals is best without the many distractions of flash? If so, at what point are you good enough to move on?
I personally believe that it is much easier the correctly learn poses and spacing on pivot that on flash. I might even go so far as to say that the simple program helps to lay a solid foundation that could possibly put you ahead of other flash users. The reason for this is that pivot helps to eliminate some of the annoying distractions, like stick construction and re-sizing, that make what is more important hard to learn in flash. With pivot you can learn easing, flow, physics, etc. that can later be used in more complex softwares. As for the point at which someone is ready to move on, I believe that they should be at least a low intermediate on DD, as that is around where most of the important principals have been learned.
Beginning Animation with Simple vs. Advanced Programs
Started by: Root | Replies: 20 | Views: 2,790
Jan 18, 2015 6:35 PM #1297150
Jan 18, 2015 6:37 PM #1297151
I'm lost. But I'm okay with that. Give me 10 minutes and I'll forget.
Jan 18, 2015 6:43 PM #1297157
Quote from LamitrovI'm lost. But I'm okay with that. Give me 10 minutes and I'll forget.
More simply I am asking whether you think that there are some advantages to learning the basics of animation in a simple software like pivot as opposed to a more complicated one like flash.
Jan 18, 2015 6:45 PM #1297158
I agree with your perspective on the matter. It's much easier to learn the basics of animation in pivot because it's like having training wheels. I would say it's best to use pivot until you reach what would be considered an intermediate level of animating, because transitioning to a program such as flash will result in a decline of quality simply because the program is different. Then you have to pick whether or not you want to use a line tool style or a brush style. That is even more difficult to adapt to if you switch to brush, but it is the most rewarding in my opinion.
Jan 19, 2015 5:57 PM #1297490
Quote from RootThe reason for this is that pivot helps to eliminate some of the annoying distractions, like stick construction and re-sizing, that make what is more important hard to learn in flash.
the term "stick construction" never fails to make me laugh. you're literally talking about drawing a stick figure, how is that a "distraction" for someone who wants to animate them?
pivot makes it impossible to fuck up the size of your character throughout the animation but being able to keep it consistent is a fundamental skill of animation, not a distraction.
Quote from RootWith pivot you can learn easing, flow, physics, etc. that can later be used in more complex softwares.
you can also learn those things in flash.
pivot is fine if you're too lazy and/or unorganized to be able to focus on all of the fundamentals at once. I don't say that to be mean, being able to teach yourself something new in an efficient manner is a skill in itself that a lot of people lack and pivot is simple enough to learn for those people while flash might be too difficult. but there's no objective benefit to using pivot instead of flash. if you're the kind of person who needs pivot's "training wheels" in order to learn basic animation fundamentals, then you're better off starting with that, but your individual experience doesn't mean one program is universally better than another for beginners. it completely depends on the person.
Jan 21, 2015 12:04 AM #1297858
The main thing, for me at least, is that pivot allows you to learn raw movements in a way that forces you to animate them realistically due to its control over re sizing. With flash, people are more likely to have large amounts of re-sizing that may not be very noticeable, but will still take away from their animations. Probably the best example I have for this are walk cycles. In Pivot, you need to put a large amount of effort into figuring out the poses and how to get the foot off and back onto the ground, while in flash even some of the best animators simply shorten the length of the leg in order to pick it up.
Jan 21, 2015 12:17 AM #1297861
Quote from Arch-AngelThat is even more difficult to adapt to if you switch to brush, but it is the most rewarding in my opinion.
or, learn2draw lol
Re-sizing and being able to draw a stickfigure and all that jazz needs to be learned eventually anyways
Jan 21, 2015 9:42 AM #1298039
Quote from "Miccool"Well in terms of Flash vs Pivot.. I think it just comes down to your own personal preference. In the end it doesn't change too much down the line unless if you just stay with pivot the whole time or something. Although pivot can help a lot in understanding basic movements by making the stick construction constant so you can put more focus on just the motion, in the end you'll have learn drawing, resizing problems, etc eventually if you choose to move on in 2d animation so why not just do them together? Pivot is also a very limiting program as you only can use shapes and move the shapes around.. you can't represent any depth unless you make custom made shapes or animate many things that require redrawing.. a lot of people who stay in pivot for a long time might end up losing their sense of creativity cause they've gotten too used to it.
If you're a beginner and have a hard time keeping track of all the different things, maybe starting with pivot is good for you as it's more focused on just the movements. Doing pivot can probably also help you a lot in things such as puppet animation they do so much on tv nowadays.. or maybe it can help you with 3d animation too as you also drag and drop there. But if you wanna do traditional 2d animation then I'd probably recommend just sticking with something like Flash or just briefly do some pivot if you're having problems starting.
My post from dojooo
Jan 21, 2015 2:50 PM #1298106
Quote from RootThe main thing, for me at least, is that pivot allows you to learn raw movements in a way that forces you to animate them realistically due to its control over re sizing.
Unless the movement has any sort of three-dimensional movement to it, which necessitates resizing individual limbs as they move through the Z axis.
This "distraction" you're describing is squashing and stretching, widely considered the most important fundamental aspect of animation by Disney animators. The only reason you think you somehow benefited by completely ignoring this concept while you focused on "raw movements" is because you don't know any better. Squash and stretch is a fundamental aspect of raw movement and necessary for many movements to appear realistic.
Your experience with Pivot somehow made you believe resizing limbs detracts from an animation's quality, even if it's not very noticeable. That to me is a huge negative for Pivot's capacity as a learning tool, since you're living proof of how misguiding it can be to people who know nothing about animation prior to picking it up.
Jan 21, 2015 6:23 PM #1298123
I've seen crazy shit done in both pivot and flash. Flash has more potential to do waaaaay more than pivot, while pivot has a certain style to it that makes it fun to use for simple animations. I used pivot as a kid because it was easy and the best way for me to make a story and learn how to animate, but as i got older I realized that pivot is EXTREMELY limited. To animate you need to know how to draw, and pivot eliminates that aspect almost entirely (almost, again, you can get creative with it.)
In general, Flash is a professional animation tool, while pivot can be a fun thing to do in your spare time. If you plan on taking animation seriously, drop pivot and learn how to use flash. If you do it as a pass time because it's enjoyable to you, then use whatever you like and enjoy the results you can make with either program. It's preference at that point.
In general, Flash is a professional animation tool, while pivot can be a fun thing to do in your spare time. If you plan on taking animation seriously, drop pivot and learn how to use flash. If you do it as a pass time because it's enjoyable to you, then use whatever you like and enjoy the results you can make with either program. It's preference at that point.
Jan 25, 2015 6:13 PM #1299537
Quote from ExilementUnless the movement has any sort of three-dimensional movement to it, which necessitates resizing individual limbs as they move through the Z axis.
I am in no way saying that limbs shouldn't be resized or that doing so is a bad thing, I completely agree with its use to create 3D movements, but am simply saying that pivot gives you a large amount of control over it. You have the ability resize limbs when necessary and keep them the same length when you want to. The same can't be said for the brush tool, which can cause unintentional and uncontrolled resizing that causes beginners to learn movements the wrong way. (again, the walk cycle)
Quote from Exilement
This "distraction" you're describing is squashing and stretching, widely considered the most important fundamental aspect of animation by Disney animators.
I am going to have to admit that I really don't know a whole lot about this topic, but (please correct me if I am wrong) I don't think applies a whole lot to rigid objects like limbs. Again though, even if it does, you could probably still practice its effect on character animation using pivot about as well as in flash. (character animation. If you want to squash and stretch a bouncing ball in pivot then you are screwed.)
Quote from Exilement
resizing limbs detracts from an animation's quality, even if it's not very noticeable.
I am mainly talking about the extreme resizing that happens when a 9 year old tries to create an epic fighting animation with a mouse and the brush tool.
In conclusion, my point is not that resizing is bad when controlled, but that pivot gives you a way to control unintentional resizing. I feel like some of you haven't realized that pivot 4 exists, and has the feature of changing segment sizes.
Quote from Exilementcompletely ignoring this concept
Ouch.
Quote from Exilementyou don't know any better
Double ouch.
Quote from Exilementyou're living proof of how misguiding it can be to people
Triple ouch. I am going to go cry now. ;)
Jan 25, 2015 8:47 PM #1299584
Pivot is low-end..so I really recommend flash.
Jan 31, 2015 5:04 PM #1302217
At this point I pretty much agree with you guys (not going to be able to afford flash anytime soon, though :P), but
Resh FTW
Hbomb (not popular but really good)
Also (this isn't exactly an argument; more of an observation) I have found that a lot of the tutorials covering the fundamental aspects of stick animation are ones focused on pivot. I don't think this says much, but it is a bit odd.
Quote from Jombo
Adding to that though, there hasn't been anyone that I can think of that has started out with Pivot and then "upgraded" into being a popular Flash stick figure animator.
Resh FTW
Hbomb (not popular but really good)
Also (this isn't exactly an argument; more of an observation) I have found that a lot of the tutorials covering the fundamental aspects of stick animation are ones focused on pivot. I don't think this says much, but it is a bit odd.
Jan 31, 2015 10:09 PM #1302324
really? I just googled "stickfigure tutorial" and they're mostly in Flash
Feb 1, 2015 5:07 AM #1302459
I am mostly talking about the huge tutorials that are on the old Dark Demon.