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Legal Paternal Surrender

Started by: Preserve | Replies: 19 | Views: 3,368

Preserve

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Apr 19, 2015 6:47 PM #1350496
So I was looking at a guys blog and he wrote about something that I've never really gave much thought to before. This is the blog that he wrote about and his argument.

Legal Paternal Surrender (Click to Show)


Here's a link to the guys blog as well to try to find if this article isn't on the first page when you see it.

http://venaloid.blogspot.com/

I don't really know what to say to this. I don't think comparing this to abortion is correct. While I don't agree with abortion, abortion proponents argue that a fetus isn't qualified as a human. This clearly doesn't work once the child is born.

I think it's also selfish and doesn't factor in the child's point of view.
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Apr 19, 2015 6:56 PM #1350504
Your point about it is exactly mine. The difference between an abortion and this is that the child is gonna be born and live fatherless. And abortion is basically killing it before it's able to conceptualize anything or even a complete human.

I don't get how people can get this far with prego problems when protection is readily available and VERY reliable.
Zed
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Apr 19, 2015 11:59 PM #1350625
Quote from Salt
I don't get how people can get this far with prego problems when protection is readily available and VERY reliable.


Rape, for one thing.

Quote from Preserve
While I don't agree with abortion, abortion proponents argue that a fetus isn't qualified as a human. This clearly doesn't work once the child is born.


The only reason to mention the fact it's not a human yet is to respond to people who argue you're killing something. Since the child will not be destroyed in the event of LPS, that's not relevant here.

Quote from Salt
The difference between an abortion and this is that the child is gonna be born and live fatherless.


Quote from Preserve
I think it's also selfish and doesn't factor in the child's point of view.


That also happens with sperm donation but we don't have a problem with that. Kids get along perfectly well with no dad, or no mum, or two dads, or whatever family situation they end up in.
Azure
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Apr 20, 2015 12:15 AM #1350629
I have to say that I'm on the side of Venaloid on this. If a guy doesn't wish to be a part of a child's life, then he should legally be allowed to live without being a parent, following the conditions he laid down. This isn't talking about things like marriage, it's focus appears to be on unintentional or intentional conception that the male party does not wish to be responsible for. While comparing it to abortion is somewhat inaccurate, it carries across the same meaning. A more accurate one may be comparing it to adoption, though there is of course no guarantee that the child will actually be born.

That all said, I can't see any real reasons why one would disagree to allowing men to, with restrictions, abandon parental responsibility. What concerns are there with this? I grew up without a father through a much different process, and there's never been money issues or any issues with my upbringing, which I can prove through the medals and trophies I have from academic success and extracurricular success.
Preserve

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Apr 20, 2015 5:01 PM #1351127
Quote from Zed

That also happens with sperm donation but we don't have a problem with that. Kids get along perfectly well with no dad, or no mum, or two dads, or whatever family situation they end up in.


This assumes that all sperm donations go to single women.
Exile
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Apr 20, 2015 5:13 PM #1351130
No it doesn't? He's saying no one seems to have a problem with single women seeking out sperm donations, despite it leading to the same outcome of a child being born without a father, so why would this be an issue?
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Apr 20, 2015 5:18 PM #1351132
Preserve, are you against mothers giving up their children for adoption if they feel they are not equipped to raise them?
Preserve

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Apr 21, 2015 1:17 AM #1351264
Quote from Exilement
No it doesn't? He's saying no one seems to have a problem with single women seeking out sperm donations, despite it leading to the same outcome of a child being born without a father, so why would this be an issue?


When a single woman decides to get a sperm donation she's the one who decides it and most women especially when they are single wouldn't go through with that if they feel like they couldn't handle it. This is not always the case when a man leaves their child after accidentally having it. If you are going to take the steps to make a child, then be prepared to raise them. There are children that can handle single parents and vice versa, but not everyone can. So in my opinion, it's in everyone's best interest to have two parents.

Quote from Nish
Preserve, are you against mothers giving up their children for adoption if they feel they are not equipped to raise them?


Nope
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Apr 21, 2015 4:49 AM #1351351
So you're NOT against a parent disengaging themselves from a child, as long as the child is adequately provided for, yeah?

I'd just like to point out one thing. Kids with no fathers, absentee fathers, dead fathers, missing fathers, they mostly turn out ok. You know who doesn't turn out ok? Kids with bad fathers. Kids who are with their fathers because they were thrust into the lives of these irresponsible adults who didn't want to have them in the first place.
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Apr 21, 2015 9:57 AM #1351424
Quote from Preserve
If you are going to take the steps to make a child, then be prepared to raise them.


I think the argument starts from the assumption that we're ok with women having abortions if they don't feel capable of raising the child. If you're denying that premise then we'll have to take a step back before we can consider LPS.

If you do accept that a woman can have an abortion if she doesn't feel she can cope then the sperm-donor argument is back in play. A woman who got pregnant and then had the father choose LPS will be in the same position as a single woman considering whether or not to go to the sperm bank - in both cases they have the option of having a baby and being a single mother if they feel they can cope, or not having the baby if they don't think they can cope. (plus or minus some emotions, I guess)

The blog argument suggested that the man could have the right to LPS after the child was born when the mother obviously can no longer abort, but this is only in cases where the mother hid the pregnancy from him so in that case it's her own fault and she's presumably been coping as a single mother for some time anyway.

And even if you do want to rule out the abortion option, a child can be put into care after it's born so the woman still has options if she doesn't think she can handle it. (At least, it can in the UK. I suspect it's the same in most first-world countries.)
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Apr 21, 2015 5:20 PM #1351650
I mostly agree with the arguments you referred to in the first post.


So, in order to make LPS as fair as possible for men and women, I would like to propose some caveats to the process that men would have to go through, with the goal of mirroring the difficulties that the mother would have to go through for an abortion. The caveats I propose are as follows:

> The father could only sign the paperwork at an abortion clinic (if one even exists near him).
> The father would have to jump through the same hoops as the mother would have to (waiting periods, multiple visits, maybe an unnecessary probe of some kind, etc.)
> The father would have to pay a fee equal to the theoretical cost of an abortion at that stage of pregnancy, just as the mother would have to.
> The father would have to complete this process in the same timeframe as the mother would have to complete the abortion process: up to 24 weeks, and this timeframe would begin when the father learned about the pregnancy or, if the mother kept her pregnancy secret, when he learned about the child.


This part annoys me though.
Why would forcing unnecessary hoops onto men be fair? I'm not saying that the decision to give up responsibility should be easy to make legally binding, but wouldn't a system that actually considers the conditions with which the pregnancy occurred be more appropriate?
The things that should determine whether someone should be allowed to deny the responsibility of fatherhood or financial support for a child is whether or not the father is responsible for the conception. If he was not raped, tricked(sabotaged condom or whatever) or wearing a broken condom he should not be allowed to just give up all responsibility.
Exile
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Apr 21, 2015 5:30 PM #1351652
gunnii please never leave me again.

Quote from Gunnii
If he was not raped, tricked(sabotaged condom or whatever) or wearing a broken condom he should not be allowed to just give up all responsibility.


What if the couple never agreed to raising kids prior to accidentally becoming pregnant? What if the woman decides then and there that she wants to raise the child, but the father doesn't? In the opposite situation the woman has the option to abort, but men have absolutely no recourse in the above situation.

like he said, "you can't just change your mind once you already have a child established in your care, but if you never agreed in the first place, then you shouldn't be held responsible for it."
Not_Nish
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Apr 21, 2015 5:32 PM #1351653
Quote from Gunnii
If he was not raped, tricked(sabotaged condom or whatever) or wearing a broken condom he should not be allowed to just give up all responsibility.


If a woman was not raped, tricked(sabotaged condom or whatever) or with a man wearing a broken condom, would you say she should not be allowed to have an abortion?

I don't understand what your point is. Are you saying babies should be forced to depend on fathers who do not want them?
Gunnii
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Apr 21, 2015 6:10 PM #1351662
Quote from Exilement
gunnii please never leave me again.


I can't make any promises :(

Quote from Exilement
What if the couple never agreed to raising kids prior to accidentally becoming pregnant? What if the woman decides then and there that she wants to raise the child, but the father doesn't? In the opposite situation the woman has the option to abort, but men have absolutely no recourse in the above situation.

like he said, "you can't just change your mind once you already have a child established in your care, but if you never agreed in the first place, then you shouldn't be held responsible for it."


Quote from Nish
If a woman was not raped, tricked(sabotaged condom or whatever) or with a man wearing a broken condom, would you say she should not be allowed to have an abortion?


I guess my post was made in a little haste, I didn't really think it through to the end. Guess that's why I'm not a legislator lol :p

The problem with all of this is the fact that women really have complete say on whether or not the child should be born. A man can't force a woman to abort, just like he can't force her to keep the child. Until we have artificial wombs like the one considered in the OP which could allow children to be born without a mother things will remain this way.
I'm just trying to point out the fact that if this sort of a system should exist, and I do think it should, men shouldn't be completely free from all responsibility when it comes to the conception.

Quote from Nish
I don't understand what your point is. Are you saying babies should be forced to depend on fathers who do not want them?


Not at all, I'm just saying he should bear some financial responsibility at the very least. I definitively agree that a bad father is worse then no father, but being a bad father should not exempt you from all responsibility.
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Apr 21, 2015 6:32 PM #1351667
Quote from Gunnii

The problem with all of this is the fact that women really have complete say on whether or not the child should be born. A man can't force a woman to abort, just like he can't force her to keep the child. Until we have artificial wombs like the one considered in the OP which could allow children to be born without a mother things will remain this way.


So wouldn't it be fair that women shouldn't be able to force men into being unplanned fathers? Since by your own admission, women have complete say and men don't.

Quote from Gunnii

I'm just trying to point out the fact that if this sort of a system should exist, and I do think it should, men shouldn't be completely free from all responsibility when it comes to the conception.


I agree to an extent. But when a woman has a choice to get an abortion i.e. remove the aspect of having a child from her life, what options are left to men?


Quote from Gunnii


Not at all, I'm just saying he should bear some financial responsibility at the very least. I definitively agree that a bad father is worse then no father, but being a bad father should not exempt you from all responsibility.


Again this has to be completely context based. Nowhere does anyone argue that men should be allowed to fuck around all they want and not bear responsibility. But the issue is about providing an out within reasonable grounds to men who have had fatherhood thrust upon them either by design or by accident.
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