With the prospect of a new StickPage on the horizon, the winds of change have come to the Writer's Lounge too. For a while now, ideas have been thrown around on how to improve the Writer's Lounge. One concern has been for the wRHG's canon, and the way the wRHG plays out. I figured that instead of letting the idea for this discussion brew endlessly while I worked out the details, I'd just get off my ass and put this out here so the community can get involved in all of this.

So what's this about? Well, the way we're going about it right now, the wRHG doesn't really have much of a centralised canon at all and people end up filling the blanks themselves. A way that has served us pretty well so far, and maybe some folks will think I'm being silly. Cause after all, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Would a central canon really be all that beneficial, after all? Would it push the wRHG to new creative heights, or would it stagnate the often wild creativity we see in our writers, and turn many away from the wRHG? Before we go any further, let me clarify what it is I am asking:

A centralised canon would mean we would establish one definite world, one definite setting, for the wRHG. A world with defined places, defined 'rules' and limits and so forth, that all wRHG writers would adhere to. Suppose for example we would decide that near all wRHG activity takes place in and around a city called Sierra Pines, and every writer from that point on would be obliged to use this city of Sierra Pines as a central orientation point for their own world, that would be a case of an at least somewhat centralised canon. My question to you, the Writer's Lounge, is whether you think the wRHG would be helped by such a thing or not.

I implore everyone here to give their input on the matter. It's rather important to make yourself heard, and give your input in the matter. It's the only way you can really make a decision on the matter, and if you don't make yourself heard, other people will make that decision for you. I understand not everyone might feel at place to give their full input on the matter though. To those of you who would feel like they've little to contribute to the conversation otherwise, I ask the following: How do you go about your own canon, why do you go about it in such a way and why do you like doing it in that way? Even as little as this will go a very long way.





It's of course important that we consider the pros and cons of both options. I'll go ahead and list my speculations and concerns to get the discussion started.

I do think a centralised canon is at least somewhat worth considering, because it might make the wRHG more accessible and consistent across the board.

The way we do it now, one dude's canon has all of these people with godlike powers and all of that's normal, and the other dude's canon is much more grounded and someone with even the slightest hint of supernatural powers is already considered exceptionally strong. Or another example, one has a very futuristic image of their world, while the other's takes on a less modern form, hearkening back to such places like ancient Greece or the medieval times. Inconsistencies like these can make it very hard for some people to really have their characters interact in a meaningful way at all. Suppose we have this Godlike Hercules on one hand, and this average joe with a knife on the other, both writers are really gonna have to bend their worlds quite a bit for this kind of story to make any sense at all. Both characters will have to be molded and squeezed until they can find a proper place in the author's world, and adhere to the rules said author has defined for his world. This more often than not results in rather... lackluster reading, though. An argument could be made that it forces both writers to 'get creative', though in my experience it's been detrimental to such a degree that I try to avoid conflicting canons altogether now, barring me from interacting with certain writers in the Lounge completely so I wouldn't have to fuck up my own writing so much for it to make sense. Honestly I think if there's anyone out there who can testify that this causes a shitshow canon-wise, it's Chrome.

A centralised canon in this case would immediately solve nearly all of these inconsistencies because the 'rules' and limits of power in the universe would be defined to an extent. It'd make the wRHG as a whole more accessible to newcomers, too, and the reason for that is twofold. One, it would make assessing whether their character fits in or not, a hell of a lot easier. Two, it'd prevent outliers from happening. Those people that make a canon and character, but generally don't really end up interacting much with anyone in the Lounge. Sure, we'd set a bit of an entry bar but at least it'd guarantee people are primed to start doing shit with other folks once they're in. All in all, this world would start making a lot more sense across the board and the reader would have more of a clue what to expect when getting into a battle.

Now comes the big con in my eyes, namely the concern that deciding on a centralised canon could potentially stifle the wild creativity we've got going right now, and potentially kill interest in the wRHG because of it. After all, I've seen people do things at times that struck me as breaking the mold by quite a bit, in a good way. It adds quite a bit of heart to this whole place, and I'd hate to see that go away. As I said though, this is largely just a concern though. There are arguments to be made that having a centralised canon would spark creativity, as opposed to stifling it.

I'm not sure how familiar y'all are with the concept of "creative limitation", but what it boils down to is basically that once a writer is forced to put boundaries on his imagination, he will go through greater creative lengths to make his writing work. We all do it. All ideas start in this white void, where anything is possible. But then we start making a few decisions. For example, we decide that our story takes place in the present day. That's a creative limitation, because now all things past and future are largely beyond the limits you've put yourself. We decide that our protagonists are human, and the story takes place on earth. We decide the story takes place in America. We decide our protagonist is a woman, that our genre is a murder mystery, and so forth. All of this is creative limitation. All of this forces us to scratch certain possibilities, and try to make our story work with the choices we've left ourselves with. Deciding on a centralised canon could, in a sense, be deciding on the creative limitations we impose on all writers of the wRHG.

Besides, if we take a look at how most people approach the matter of canon, we can already see that most folks decide on a somewhat similar setting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your setting is most likely: A city called either StickPage (city), or Sierra Pines. Chronologically, we're in a current day setting though we're ahead a bit technologically. Generally, aliens and supernatural shit are commonplace in your canon. The RHG itself is known across the world, probably as a TV broadcast run by the RHG corporation.

What I'm trying to prove here is that we're really not that removed from a centralised canon as we might at first expect. So yes. What do you guys think? Do you think we'll be helped a centralised canon, or that we'll just screw ourselves over? If I'm honest, I myself don't think we'll ever end up settling on a completely centralised canon, though I think we'd be helped by at least defining the boundaries a bit more.

I eagerly await your comments.

Limitations make creativity shine, so I think having a central wRHG battlefield would make it interesting. We could also handwave it to have the city's features change ever so slightly according to a character's perception so that one character's Stickpage can be slightly different from my Stickpage.

OR we can make it a parallel universe thing, with Stickpage as a hub, suffering/benefitting from the spacial/temporal distortion that makes the specific attributes of Stickpage to be anything we dream of, fitting for the right plot.

When it comes to GOD HERCULES THE VII vs bob with knife, I feel that it's a matter best left to the writers. Having characters of different power level fight can make for either interesting stories, or bullshit conveniences.

A workaround for the above limitation is having a "class" system, like "lightweight", "mediumweight", "heavyweight", like wrestling. You pick a class and make characters that would fight characters of similar weight class, making the power level less skewed. Sure you can have mediumweight face off against heavyweight in a classic "overcome an obstacle" plot, or lightweight vs heavyweight AKA "David vs Goliath", but this should make it easier for the writers to consider the right opponents.

I like the idea of a centralized canon. I feel like having everyone build from this basic world can lead to a pretty cool place. However, what kind of rules would need to be put in place and would those rules potentially mess with creativity, as you said? I'm all for having organization within canons but not if it stifles creativity.

I, for one, like the parallel universe thing. This idea that the RHG corporation has a sorta inter-dimensional monorail that transports gladiators over to another gladiator's dimension so they can participate in a broadcasted fight.

Limitations make creativity shine, so I think having a central wRHG battlefield would make it interesting. We could also handwave it to have the city's features change ever so slightly according to a character's perception so that one character's Stickpage can be slightly different from my Stickpage.

OR we can make it a parallel universe thing, with Stickpage as a hub, suffering/benefitting from the spacial/temporal distortion that makes the specific attributes of Stickpage to be anything we dream of, fitting for the right plot.

As I told you in Skype, you're basically proposing we decide on a centralised anti-centralised canon, which kind of defeats the purpose of deciding on a centralised canon to begin with. After all, if everyone is entitled to their own parallel universe where anything is possible, what's the point of taking such a system over the one we already got going right now where we don't really give much of a shit about how people do their stuff?

When it comes to GOD HERCULES THE VII vs bob with knife, I feel that it's a matter best left to the writers. Having characters of different power level fight can make for either interesting stories, or bullshit conveniences.

In my experience its always lead to bullshit convenience or plotbending, as I already said :P

A workaround for the above limitation is having a "class" system, like "lightweight", "mediumweight", "heavyweight", like wrestling. You pick a class and make characters that would fight characters of similar weight class, making the power level less skewed. Sure you can have mediumweight face off against heavyweight in a classic "overcome an obstacle" plot, or lightweight vs heavyweight AKA "David vs Goliath", but this should make it easier for the writers to consider the right opponents.

My point is that I'd rather see anyone fight anyone. I'm just proposing that we at least consider the idea of a world where the smallest underdog at least has a realistic chance of beating the biggest fish in the pond without plotbending, if the author's creative enough. We've seen people like Penny take a shot at behemoths like Omega before. I still think that's one of the best battles out there, to be honest.

So, I'm tired and drugged up so I'll post more another day. For now, let me say I really, REALLY support the idea of a unified canon.

Here's the deal -- SP City should be this kind of Tardis-like place that is anywhere and everywhere and nowhere. That said, it should NOT just be a shifting generic place because we already have that. Honestly, I'd support creating a map for it. A map with areas left vague enough for people to work with, but certain confirmed recurring places used.

RHG is a system that some people participate in, but some don't. There are official battles and personal conflicts. Nothing binding here, but if you DO sign up you're a celebrity. Treat it like making movies -- you can vanish from Hollywood, you can make tons, you can do one now and then, etc.

More thoughts will come but I'm just tired RN.

I feel like this conversation pops up every so often, so, from all those times, my stance is no.

That much I could have guessed. Yes this conversation pops up every so often as do so many others, simply because every time such conversations are left unresolved and just die out.

Recommended starting set, sure. I'm fine with that, but I don't want to discourage people. I'd rather see a character in action and judge them that way than add on X isn't a thing in this universe to critiques. Multiple characters have met God(s) at some point. Some are angels, some are demons. One streamlined cannon means X happens when you die, X are the deities and you have to be pretty important to meet death. One cannon means you can't go as large scale.

I do small scale because it's easier to insert, but if we're one world, I don't want to ask for permission to burn down the orphanage. If August runs into a fire during a terrorist attack, that doesn't make John a dick for not being there pulling out the puppies. One world means you have to be aware of everything, which is a hell of a commitment. People who leave with open ends leave lingering mysteries.

I'm honestly not in favour of a completely centralised canon either. Right now, I just want to see the community's thoughts on the matter, their input and ideas, before I do anything else. Ultimately, I hope we can simply agree on some matters canonically, such as how exactly the public views the gladiators, how the city looks like, perhaps what it's called--

Side note: Your omission of Vague City is amusing

It wasn't intentional, my friend. I just always tend to draw from my own experience when making examples. Sierra Pines is an easy example, so is StickPage city. Vague definitely bears mentioning as well.

But yes, for now I wanna see what people have to say. Thanks for the input.

Hi.

My personal canon for the city is simply a city slash country, much like Vatican City but considerably larger. I don't make it a point to fill in everything in it as to conform to people's canons that could possibly be medieval in nature or high tech; they could be sections of the city I just haven't had my character venture into very often. The city itself is open to a variety and is left open ended for the purpose of taking in canons to make it all be nice and tidy.

My point is, the rules and places can never be static. They have to be open and out for the writers to use. However this puts in a problem that writer A blows up this building but writer B had a story there and had plans for a future canon-linked story in it, say he can't change the location for that canon story. How do you consolidate? Putting this all in a centralized universe will have to make writers aware of all other writer's characters and what they do.

Centralized canons are fine. Though it will take a lot of discussion to create and in addition to that, make the already existing canons merge or be made to conform; we can't expect the new people to follow suit if we don't make the sacrifice as well.

"Shitshows" Trivia:
1) Decentralized canons only become "shitshows" when they are forced into a centralized canon. (Like fitting a large square peg into a small round hole.)
2) Centralized canons only become "shitshows" when they are forced to decentralize. (Like trying to craft a large square peg out of a small round peg.)
3) Just because a canon has "gone to shit" does not make it unsalvageable.
4) For a "shitshow" canon to be salvaged, it must simply change into something that isn't complete shit.
5)

I didn't worry that much about canon when I was on the forum for the first time. However, as I sent my characters into different battles, had them meet other wRHGs; I began to add in some minor 'canon-esque' stuff:

1) In my old writings, the wRHG world (now Vague City), was referred to as SP.

2) When my wRHG fights another person's wRHG, two battles actually take place...one being my own, and then my character has a rematch (to complete the "other side" of the story). I changed this later on, seeking to omit the existence of the other person's battle entirely, or stick flashes of it into my character's memories. The latter was mostly because I didn't want my characters probably learning things in the other fight, and never putting them to use in my stories.

3) At some points in my stories, some of my characters had 'OP knowledge', because other characters of mine (e.g. some rather secret beings in the WRF) monitored the actual Stickpage Forum. The information that they gathered would sometimes surface in my stories, which could be quite inconvenient. Later on, I made this 'OP knowledge' into an actual interconnected electronic web system that only these secret characters had access to. The secret characters are still under development, but rumors state that they can switch freely between digital and physical forms. That would mean that no electronic system...anywhere...is inaccessible to them.

Vamprina knows about these characters, and only asks for their help in situations of the extreme nature (or just to inconvenience someone, sometimes). As they are their own separate organization, there is no guarantee that they would help...or do exactly as she expects them to.

4) When the idea of Vague City came up, I simply changed my city's title of SP City to Vague. Story events proceeded just as they always did.

5) I referred to Cansad City often in my old stories, back when Vamprina's old clan was still alive (the Wind Chasers). Most of my characters hung out there (namely Erebus and Agana, Spune Swiftwing, sometimes Vamprina). I even made up a specific species for the town: sand pigeons.

Nowadays, I just have all my battles/stories as my canon. Sometimes, I do have points in there from other people's stories, but the tales are mostly mine. Maybe it's the path of least resistance, but it works for me. That being said, it would be nice to have a list of different places named places in the wRHG world (as was done in *Vague City: People and Places), but a centralized canon sounds way too complicated (unless some people are willing to make some sort of daily/weekly "events" list for the areas in VC, and somehow stay on top of everyone's written works to keep it updated). It would be like giant 'Hall of Warriors' thread, except with events. I agree with Crank; all writers here can't expect to know what each and every one of their fellow writers are going to do with their characters.

The only way I see all this working out is if we all lived in the same house, and discussed all our plans for our wRHGs together daily. It would be like a mega-writer's-collaboration! :D

Like I said in Discord:

"I still don't see why a centralized canon matters a lot lmao. Maybe I'm not "with it" enough in the wrhg scene to get it.

Is it really important enough that the entire WLounge has to go along with everyone's details of the city? It seems much easier to discuss small details like individual buildings and places with like, the people in your clan. Without making everyone else have to read it and agree with it and have it in their own stories or whatever.
I could understand if all the major (and also left vague) details were clarified here, but people don't write to fit their own inspiration into someone else's mold. They want to do what they're excited about and/or what they have in their head. I want to make sure something like this doesn't have the opposite effect and strangle new activity, and that people don't just want the satisfaction of feeling like the world in their head is the "real world," and that it's being used by other people.

A centralized canon doesn't seem like the most important thing in the world when you can just discuss things with your immediate partners instead. But like I said I dont even do wRHG lol"

Quote from Alphaeus

So, I'm tired and drugged up so I'll post more another day. For now, let me say I really, REALLY support the idea of a unified canon.

I think the phrase you're looking for here is unifiable, or one that can centralize and decentralize as needed in an intuitive, reconcilable way. A fully centralized and unified canon is not something that is possible or wanted, and Vern even works off this assumption in the OP. But to really hammer in the consensus against a fully unified canon, here's what Cassandra's said on the matter;

Quote from Cassandra

The only way I see all this working out is if we all lived in the same house, and discussed all our plans for our wRHGs together daily. It would be like a mega-writer's-collaboration! :D

That in the back of you're mind, I want to step in to say that the use of the word "this" in Cassandra's post is something of a misappropriation, as even on the sole basis of Vern's thoughts on the matter -- the original poster, we can say that any chance of a singular wRHG canon would be non-existent, unless we were to count Vern's own canon for wRHG as separate from whatever we to proclaim the "unified" canon. I too would be excluded from such a concept, lest I were to name my own imagining of events as the sole definitive one, from which all else were to be excluded. So in short, a fully centralized/unified canon is not possible, and as such not a possibility to be considered or rejected, for it is an inherent reject of a concept.

But what I can speak to is partial centralization. The Sanctuary Collab, which we may or may not still get written, exists within a partially centralized frame of existence -- where my canon, devi's canon, cassandra's canon, kamiroo's canon -- all combine into one, with our characters in the same room as each other, even if we ourselves aren't. To keep up, we as writers would and will have to be on the same page and same level when deciding the fate of our characters within the framework of centralization. This means discussion, understanding, and collaboration -- which as Cass points out, would be a hell of a lot easier if we lived in the same room. So let's say, for the sake of example, the Sanctuary collab is released successfully as "planned," and following it, Devi is no longer around to maintain his character's story. If we want to still have collabs with his character in it, we're gonna need a new plan -- or that centralization framework, or shared canon, is going to end as we know it -- as this example would exist on the presumption that Light would cease to exist the moment Devi ceases to write the character.

But let's say someone took on the character. I've done it with Rhami and Astor, already -- with some input from acutelatios after the collab we did. Rhami and Astor became my character's roommates, and the framework itself didn't immediately change, and I suppose has yet to. The only thing that did change was my workload. Following this, Shadowmirror I believe left, so I wound up writing Ergos for a bit. It wasn't too bad, I had fun with it, we divied up the workload for the collab I did with him and his clan, and it could have gone worse. But the more characters you accrue, and canons you centralize, the more canon elements you have to balance. Should a writer essentially hand you a character for a time and walk off, that becomes harder and harder to balance. This, again, is why a fully unified wRHG canon is a fool's errand -- because the second anybody logs off, whoever's left online has to keep the framework together while they're away.

That leads us into decentralization. Let's say I were writing for the Sanctuary collab, which I am, were asked to write for both Dante and Cassandra which I am, Rhami and Astor scheduled to make an appearance without their writer, which they aren't, and I were to wake up one day, refusing to write this story with all of these characters in it. This would be the beginnings of decentralization, which as I've detailed in a separate post and Vern alluded to in a previous post, if handled incorrectly, can very easily devolve into a shitshow. So what would I call a shitshow?

An example of a shitshow would be if I went with the story as it was, and if I continued to entertain the notion that Dante's canon intersects with Alph's canon, Kamiroo Wolf's canon, Cassandra's canon, and so on -- and what I did was I ended it with Dante killing himself and everyone he's ever known, without consulting any of my collaborators on the matter. That canon, in its centralized state, would be fucked.

But let's say that we'd planned for such a thing. We all do on some level. We'll say Sanctuary exists in its own little alternate universe, whether we acknowledge it within the context of the story or not. In that case, we can tell ourselves that Dante didn't kill our character and himself -- he simply walked out of our lives one day, or... it was all a dream, or this, that or what-have you. We can steer clear of the shitshow by decentralizing our canon away from... whichever one it is where so-and-so did so-and-so. But if we're going to do something like that -- if we're going to have something like that happen -- we want it to make sense.

We as writers want our own personal canon to be a canon that can unite with others' to tell the stories we want to tell, and break away from the ones we don't and/or can't.

We could use more ways of doing so, and more writers crafty enough to employ them in ways that work for both them and their audiences.

That's just me though.

Well, a term I want to toss in here is the White Box concept. Has a ton of applications that are irrelevant, but it it's common usage it means a structure that has definitions (top, bottom, left, right, walls, floors, ceiling, boundaries) but can adapt to accommodate any details.

Originally from genetics, the idea says that a bear is a bear. A grizzly bear that lives on the arctic coast can over thousands of years become a polar bear due to the pressures of the environment, etc etc (this is, btw, the origin of polar bears genetically IRL). A human is a human. Quecha (Incans) have an extra liter of blood and massive lungs, while Inuit have special fat deposits and thick skin, while Polynesians can see better underwater than any other race. We all came from the same genetic background and have the same basic code, but the "White Box" aspect comes into play and lets us adapt to our environments.

The same can be applied to this unification. When I say unification, I mean that certain points are solidified. These points form the "walls" of the White Box. They are reference points that exist and cannot be "un-existed," thereby stabilizing storyline continuity and character development for mutual benefit of all writers involved.

By definition, however, no matter how much we describe the Walls -- the Reference points -- the fact is that this is still a giant big empty box. You can fill the central void however you like. You can smear shit on the walls if it pleases you. Do whatever the fuck you want within those indestructible walls. But we ALL depend on the structure provided by those walls, and their existence prevents people from blowing apart our canon like some little piggy's house of straw with a single story.

To Crank's point, yes, of course we'll have to say "that's not how it works." Because this is a collaborative writing community -- even though most works are independently produced, they inherently revolved around the intersecting of two canons. The reason most of us can/have/will write together is because we adhere to the unspoken anyway to some extent.

For example, we define that Angels and Demons exist. Fine. You can have them function in a million different roles because we aren't going to define that. We'll just establish that they DO exist...because otherwise shit gets awkward when Cruel comes back and has a half angel/half demon char now and one of my other clan members decides that in their canon there are no Supernatural beings.

The idea of this thread, and what Vern is trying to do (and I tried once before when Crank/Azure noped it, and then someone else tried once before that and Hew/Crank noped it) follows the idea of a coloring book. You can fill those pages with whatever fucking colors you want. You can choose to color whatever fucking page you want. But we're going to lay down the lines. The pattern. The FRAMEWORK upon which these stories and canons can build. That way we don't have people scribbling all over the page like a spasmatic retard and saying the lines aren't there, because they are and will be.

I'm liking all the input so far, people. Don't be afraid to react to others' comments, too. It's an open discussion after all : P.

Quote from Chrome

A bunch of text

I wish you were this coherent when I'm having an argument with you, Chrome. But yes, if it wasn't already apparent, there's no point in saying that a truly unified canon is impossible because it isn't even being considered. You make some good points about writers leaving the site too, and the matter of their characters. I'm in favour of people picking up others' storylines if the owner of the characters decide to fuck off to wherever.

Quote from Alph

The idea of this thread, and what Vern is trying to do follows the idea of a coloring book.

Eh, the point of this thread is to discuss the idea of a centralised canon, nothing more. I myself am in favour of a colouring book method but as I said I kinda just wanna hear people's thoughts on a centralised canon in general.

Also all the newer folk are invited to talk too. Kinda hoped I'd be hearing from more peeps by now but I understand if y'all are busy.

I like the concept Alpheus stated above. I believe that a centralized canon would be near impossible to pull off in this setting or at least one that would work for long, for the same reasons others have stated above. So basically I can easily get behind the Whiteroom concept. I may be a fanboy for stating this but the conept sounds kinda how the Touhou fandom functions. Yes, there are defined points about the world of Touhou, and even sometimes even those are played with, and that stays true across a majority if not all of the fan derivatives that spawn. Yet those points do not fully define a certain object and much is left to each person's imagination. It may sound like a weak comparison but that's what I imagined when I was reading Aplh's post.

Though as to how it's going to work, though that's a different beast altogether but that is likely for a different thread, I do have ideas but I'm not sure if they're appropriate to post here. Anyway, that's my two cents.