Quote from Fluxinator

To be honest, I think we'll be extinct by then. Even if we do, it could still only be a tiny speck of the size of the universe, and even if we did explore everywhere, like I said - we wouldn't/couldn't make much of a difference to anything. We're just like good bacteria - even if we spread everywhere we'd still be but a speck and harmless.

Extinct by when? Who says that it'll take a long tome to spread that far?

And just because we ourselves are small doesn't mean we can't have an effect. We will eventually be able to destroy, change, and even change large-scale things as we see fit. Imagine being able to make a planet as desolate as Mars look more like the Galapogos Islands. I'd say that once we can do that, we're making an impact.

Quote from Jeremy

It depends on what is "important" to the universe. How do you measure worth on a universal scale? By how big something is?

I won't think of humanity as important untill we meet and come into regular correspondance with another form of life, but luckily, this is a debatable topic. When do YOU think humanity can be called "important"?

Quote from Ash

Extinct by when? Who says that it'll take a long tome to spread that far?

And just because we ourselves are small doesn't mean we can't have an effect. We will eventually be able to destroy, change, and even change large-scale things as we see fit. Imagine being able to make a planet as desolate as Mars look more like the Galapogos Islands. I'd say that once we can do that, we're making an impact.

Yes, but a very small one.

I don't think we'll ever be able to make such changes to the universe, what makes us so important that we can control everything? Maybe it's my theistic views that make me think we will never be in the power to make drastic effects, but I just don't think fate would let us do that. I do believe in something, and anyone (atheists included) that believe in something, be it fate, divine providence or just nature itself might also believe something will always stop us from going one step too far. That's just my opinion though.

Quote from Fluxinator

Yes, but a very small one.

I don't think we'll ever be able to make such changes to the universe, what makes us so important that we can control everything? Maybe it's my theistic views that make me think we will never be in the power to make drastic effects, but I just don't think fate would let us do that. I do believe in something, and anyone (atheists included) that believe in something, be it fate, divine providence or just nature itself might also believe something will always stop us from going one step too far. That's just my opinion though.

It sounds to me like you think there's a limit to how much humans SHOULD do to the universe. If we were to decide to destroy a star in order to make some kind of transit system, do you think that would be doing too much?

And also, why can't we make drastic changes? If we gain the technology to destroy an entire solar system, or even an entire galaxy, that's making a drastic change, right? If we are destroying or creating other civilizations, that's making a drastic change, too, isn't it?

It is very hard to measure our importance, even if we have a definite idea of what is important to the universe, because we can never really know the consequences of our actions. Say we have the death star, and thus the power do destroy a seemingly desolate planet. Obviously, we have two choices: We can either destroy the planet, or not. You might think the planet doesn't matter at all, and destroying it wouldn't matter either, but there's really no way to know. The planet may support life. This life might evolve into intelligent life forms, and one day impact the universe on it's own. If we destroy the planet, we ensure that that can never happen. And that is just one thing out of thousands of coincidences that may relate to that planet.

Now imagine if we leave that planet alone. Some people would say that we would have made no impact. We saw a planet, we contemplated destroying it, we decided not to. Nothing changed. I disagree. Exactly by deciding not to change something, we changed everything. By deciding not to we allowed this intelligent race to develop, and thus millions of things to happen.

Think of for example Walther Rathenau. He was foreign minister as well as minister of reconstruction in the Weimar republic for a short time. He was popular in Britain, supported the treaty of Versailles, and also supported the integration of jews into society to remove anti-semtism. In 1922 he was assassinated by right wing extremists, something some historians argue indirectly caused the hyperinflation. Think of how different the world could have been if this guy wasn't assassinated. There could have been no WWII, thus no conflict in the middle east. 60 million people died in world war two. Every single one of them could have changed something. The impact of seemingly small things can be tremendous. As a wise man once said: You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't.

Quote from alive

It is very hard to measure our importance, even if we have a definite idea of what is important to the universe, because we can never really know the consequences of our actions. Say we have the death star, and thus the power do destroy a seemingly desolate planet. Obviously, we have two choices: We can either destroy the planet, or not. You might think the planet doesn't matter at all, and destroying it wouldn't matter either, but there's really no way to know. The planet may support life. This life might evolve into intelligent life forms, and one day impact the universe on it's own. If we destroy the planet, we ensure that that can never happen. And that is just one thing out of thousands of coincidences that may relate to that planet.

Now imagine if we leave that planet alone. Some people would say that we would have made no impact. We saw a planet, we contemplated destroying it, we decided not to. Nothing changed. I disagree. Exactly by deciding not to change something, we changed everything. By deciding not to we allowed this intelligent race to develop, and thus millions of things to happen.

Think of for example Walther Rathenau. He was foreign minister as well as minister of reconstruction in the Weimar republic for a short time. He was popular in Britain, supported the treaty of Versailles, and also supported the integration of jews into society to remove anti-semtism. In 1922 he was assassinated by right wing extremists, something some historians argue indirectly caused the hyperinflation. Think of how different the world could have been if this guy wasn't assassinated. There could have been no WWII, thus no conflict in the middle east. 60 million people died in world war two. Every single one of them could have changed something. The impact of seemingly small things can be tremendous. As a wise man once said: You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't.

Imagine if someone had killed his great great great grandmother on his mother's side. That's have a bigger effect still.

What you are talking about is the butterfly effect. Do I need to explain that for anyone? I'm assuming most of you already know of it.

I think of it thus: The universe has a specific timeline. If we didn't exist, the timeline would continue, stars would be created and destroyed, etc.

I think humanity becomes important when we can significantly change this timeline.

Quote from Ash

Topics of debate:
1) Are the affairs of humans important on a universal, or even galactic scale?

2) At what point do we become important?

1- No.

2-Never.

Yay pessimism.

Humans are a very stubborn species that haven't impacted our Earth as much as we think regardless that we are on top of the food chain, and are destined to be eradicated just like 90% of all species that ever existed on this planet.
But that's only my theory.

Quote from Ash

I won't think of humanity as important untill we meet and come into regular correspondance with another form of life, but luckily, this is a debatable topic. When do YOU think humanity can be called "important"?

I think we already are, we can think creatively and create independently. We can destroy on a massive level, and have the ability to venture and separate from out planet.

I don't think our own planet can be called a massive level. If the Earth were destroyed, the resulting explosion would pepper the other lifeless planets in our solar system with debris of long-gone civilization and a once thriving planet, but wouldn't effect any other solar systems. In fact, it would probably only effect the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, but not any planets further out.

Well, massive relative to us.

I consider humanity to be pretty much the peak of evolution or advancement as far as I know of. The universe might not physically revolve around us, but until we discover another species that is superior to us, than we are pretty much the big shots.

Quote from Ash

2) At what point do we become important?

Theres a book which I intend to read called "The Singularity is Near", the Singularity being a point in time where advancement in technology becomes so quick that its untrackable. And they assume that post-2045, which is supposedly 5 years from The Singularity, we will have sent out ridiculously smart AIs capable of breaking down whole planets, and eventually the entire universe will be mapped and essentially turned into a giant supercomputer. When this happens we will apparently have complete physcal control over the entire universe as well as intelligence which surpasses every other lifeform in the universe.
They say that it should take at the least until 2199 until the AI have mapped everywhere.

Sounds impossible, I know, but if you want to read a bit more about the subject check the wikipedia page

Personally, I find it hard to believe this will ever happen, especially as I believe that if the universe has been around for such a long time and it is almost definate that there have been other lifeforms before us, surely theres a very high chance that there have been lifeforms with equal intelligence to us, already existing (they would still be around as at the singularity medical advancements will have increased so far that it is possible to live as long as you wish), then surely some of these other species would have reached the singularity by now? And if this was the case, then we would surely be in contact with extra terrestrials and alien technology at least once a century...
I dont know the facts so Im just guessing that.

Personally it all seems a little farfetched although at the same time the book makes it very convincing.

I would use this comparison

Universe = Human body
people = some kind of microorganism we dont really need to stay alive

Do we care about the microorganism if we dont necessarily need them or if they arent dangerous ? Nope, we dont.
Thats my answer.

Forgive me, I'm feeling particularly lazy and didn't read any posts but the first.

When you say "are we important", important in the accomplishment of what, exactly?