Hey Ash and others.

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Jeremy
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Mar 25, 2009 6:01 PM #380602
Again, that doesn't say kill the believers by any means. It means they will go to hell.

That isn't even a violent scripture, are you kidding me?
Ash
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Mar 25, 2009 6:22 PM #380615
Quote from Jeremy
Again, that doesn't say kill the believers by any means. It means they will go to hell.

That isn't even a violent scripture, are you kidding me?


Go read the post you were responding to earlier. I said "violence and bigotry".

Not only is a threat of hell very much violence, but it is also bigotry. But, since you want DIRECT violence, here you go.


2:50 And when We brought you through the sea and rescued you, and drowned the folk of Pharaoh in your sight.

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

3:151 We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed.

4:74 Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

4:76 Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak.

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

5:38 As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.



Want me to keep going?



What you are calling "interpretation" is nothing more than ignoring those parts.
Jeremy
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Mar 25, 2009 6:51 PM #380639
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Taken completely out of context and still not even violent, lol. Like whats his face said, you are just taking these off of some website showing only the bad parts of it, and taking single scriptures out of context, its ridiculous.

No I'm not ignoring them, you are ignoring the fact that these are out of context.

You know what? **** you ash, you spread more hate and intolerance than any Muslim, christian, antisemitic, homophobe or anyone else I have ever known. By quoting these scriptures and these scriptures alone you are spreading the ignorance and hate towards Muslims more than they already get. **** off and go read the quaran cover to cover, then your opinion might be validated.
Ash
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Mar 25, 2009 7:06 PM #380655
Every time I listed one of those scriptures, I followed the link to the text in context, and read the rest.

You're saying these are out of context, but you don't take the time to go check the context.

For instance, look at the context of "2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not."

it seems like something that could easily have been taken out of context, right?


Quote from Another unrelated site, with three translations of the Quran side-by-side

002.214
YUSUFALI: Or do ye think that ye shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? they encountered suffering and adversity, and were so shaken in spirit that even the Messenger and those of faith who were with him cried: "When (will come) the help of Allah?" Ah! Verily, the help of Allah is (always) near!
PICKTHAL: Or think ye that ye will enter paradise while yet there hath not come unto you the like of (that which came to) those who passed away before you? Affliction and adversity befell them, they were shaken as with earthquake, till the messenger (of Allah) and those who believed along with him said: When cometh Allah's help? Now surely Allah's help is nigh.
SHAKIR: Or do you think that you would enter the garden while yet the state of those who have passed away before you has not come upon you; distress and affliction befell them and they were shaken violently, so that the Messenger and those who believed with him said: When will the help of Allah come? Now surely the help of Allah is nigh!

002.215
YUSUFALI: They ask thee what they should spend (In charity). Say: Whatever ye spend that is good, is for parents and kindred and orphans and those in want and for wayfarers. And whatever ye do that is good, -Allah knoweth it well.
PICKTHAL: They ask thee, (O Muhammad), what they shall spend. Say: that which ye spend for good (must go) to parents and near kindred and orphans and the needy and the wayfarer. And whatsoever good ye do, lo! Allah is Aware of it.
SHAKIR: They ask you as to what they should spend. Say: Whatever wealth you spend, it is for the parents and the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, and whatever good you do, Allah surely knows it.

002.216
YUSUFALI: Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
PICKTHAL: Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.
SHAKIR: Fighting is enjoined on you, and it is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.

002.217
YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.
PICKTHAL: They question thee (O Muhammad) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great (transgression), but to turn (men) from the way of Allah, and to disbelieve in Him and in the Inviolable Place of Worship, and to expel His people thence, is a greater with Allah; for persecution is worse than killing. And they will not cease from fighting against you till they have made you renegades from your religion, if they can. And whoso becometh a renegade and dieth in his disbelief: such are they whose works have fallen both in the world and the Hereafter. Such are rightful owners of the Fire: they will abide therein.
SHAKIR: They ask you concerning the sacred month about fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter, and hindering (men) from Allah's way and denying Him, and (hindering men from) the Sacred Mosque and turning its people out of it, are still graver with Allah, and persecution is graver than slaughter; and they will not cease fighting with you until they turn you back from your religion, if they can; and whoever of you turns back from his religion, then he dies while an unbeliever-- these it is whose works shall go for nothing in this world and the hereafter, and they are the inmates of the fire; therein they shall abide.


Or maybe you should read The Cow yourself, and see if this stuff is just "taken out of context".




BTW, I am in the process of reading it cover to cover right now. I'm on the 4th part, "An-Nisa", AKA "Women".
Jeremy
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Mar 25, 2009 7:13 PM #380667
The second scripture you posted, which clearly sounds the worst, was in response to persecution and defense from what google is telling me.

What is wrong with warfare if it is called for? I don't see why you keep linking that.
Ash
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Mar 25, 2009 7:36 PM #380695
Quote from Jeremy
The second scripture you posted, which clearly sounds the worst, was in response to persecution and defense from what google is telling me.

What is wrong with warfare if it is called for? I don't see why you keep linking that.


Do war against those who oppress you (All fine and dandy, right? Kill everyone who oppresses you?) and if they stop oppressing you, then don't worry, Allah will kill them and send them to hell, because that's the merciful thing to do.

Murder is NOT called for just because you feel oppressed. Imagine if the black civil rights activists in the 1960s decided to kill their oppressors instead of obtain equality peacefully. No, instead, they tried to make friends with their oppressors. But the Quran says not to be friends with nonbelievers and oppressors. It says that they are the enemy, and constantly says that they are lessers to Muslims.


And look at this one:

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them

How about some context, right?


4:87 Allah! There is no God save Him. He gathereth you all unto a Day of Resurrection whereof there is no doubt. Who is more true in statement than Allah ?
4:88 What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O Muhammad) canst not find a road.

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

4:90 Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.

So, don't be friends with nonmuslims unless they flee before you. If they turn back, though, kill them. That about right?
Jeremy
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Mar 25, 2009 7:39 PM #380698
Quote from Ash
Do war against those who oppress you (All fine and dandy, right? Kill everyone who oppresses you?) and if they stop oppressing you, then don't worry, Allah will kill them and send them to hell, because that's the merciful thing to do.

Murder is NOT called for just because you feel oppressed. Imagine if the black civil rights activists in the 1960s decided to kill their oppressors instead of obtain equality peacefully. No, instead, they tried to make friends with their oppressors. But the Quran says not to be friends with nonbelievers and oppressors. It says that they are the enemy, and constantly says that they are lessers to Muslims.


Well the black people would have been justified in killing their white captors.

Warfare =/= murder.
Ash
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Mar 25, 2009 7:46 PM #380703
Quote from Jeremy
Well the black people would have been justified in killing their white captors.

Warfare =/= murder.


Slavery wasn't around in the 1960s. Go back and read my post again.

And how is warfare not murder? Are you saying that warfare doesn't require killing? Or that if you kill someone in war, it's justified?
Jeremy
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Mar 25, 2009 7:52 PM #380709
Warfare isn't just solely for the purpose of murder is what I'm saying.
Ash
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Mar 25, 2009 7:55 PM #380712
Ah, okay, that makes sense, but murder is still essential to warfare, is it not?

Well, that's a completely different debate, and has nothing to do with religion. Care if I start a thread for it?
Jeremy
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Mar 25, 2009 7:59 PM #380714
Well I don't mind, no.
Steyene

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Mar 25, 2009 8:27 PM #380724
Ash, as has been said, it seems that you are looking for the worst possible interpretation, in order to further your point. If you are basing your argument of what a small amount of people of that ideology have down, then I will apply the same to Atheism with Pol Pot, Stalin etc. As they kill others for not believing their ideology.

Although I doubt that you would acknowledge the fact, that The God Delusion shares many similar things with religious texts, it states that belief in anything else is idiot and that everything else is false. Considering that this is coming from a person who by the label "Atheist", knows that they don't know all knowledge. So I don't see how you can say everything is false and wrong when your side is neutral. Unless you are claiming via a Boolean that your belief is right. Which means you know there is NO god.
Ash
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Mar 25, 2009 10:00 PM #380783
Quote from Steyene
Ash, as has been said, it seems that you are looking for the worst possible interpretation, in order to further your point.

No, if I were looking for the worst possible interpretation, I would have stuck to what I said earlier in the other thread. No, I stay as litteral as possible, because interpretation of texts that weren't supposed to be interpreted is bullshit.

If you are basing your argument of what a small amount of people of that ideology have down, then I will apply the same to Atheism with Pol Pot, Stalin etc. As they kill others for not believing their ideology.

They didn't kill religous people because they had different beliefs, they killed religious people because THEY wanted to be the center of their people's affection and the only ruling authority. They viewed religion as something that would make their rule less effective.

Furthermore, how is pointing out bad points of a holy book the same or even similar to pointing out the actions of members of a particular demographic?

And finally, when in that thread did I say that Muslims were in general this or that because a small population was? Did I ever once say that all muslims were radical islamists? Or even that a majority were murderers, as the words Dinomutt tried to force into my mouth went?

Although I doubt that you would acknowledge the fact, that The God Delusion shares many similar things with religious texts, it states that belief in anything else is idiot and that everything else is false.

Excuse me? Could you back that up with some lines of text from the book? And even if it did say that, it would be no more to the point than to say that it used nouns and verbs, just like religious texts do.

Considering that this is coming from a person who by the label "Atheist", knows that they don't know all knowledge. So I don't see how you can say everything is false and wrong when your side is neutral.

When have I ever said that everything else is wrong?
Dinomut
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Mar 25, 2009 10:52 PM #380841
Ugh this is exactly what i didn't want to happen.
@ Kegman: i was stating that Ash has offended many many people by wrongly interpretting their religions. It wasn't a threat, it was a statement that the amount of wrongfully interpreted scripture Ash has used to justify believers in a religion as "diluted" would have made many people I know furious. Find the part in that statement that spells "threat".

@ Ash: You seem to have never ever heard the stance of the actual church of Islam on radical Islam. This shouldn't become another thread debating Islam. Do more research into the actual views of the church you are degrading, maybe get a different point of view. Even looking back at Islam's history (they were the inventors of modern mathematics, they were the first to give women the right to vote in the ENTIRE WORLD, when they took over a country they were very tolerant of other religions and didn't persecute people based on their beliefs etc.) you'd see that you're completely misjudging Islam to be something completely different, and more negative.

Now we should either keep debating the video that OP posted, or this should be canned and this conversation should be moved back to the Islam debate thread.
Zed
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Mar 25, 2009 10:54 PM #380843
I vote lock, can or ignore seeing as we essentially tore the film to pieces on the first page.