There have been a few accounts of fighting on SPP recently and split opinion over them, so:

Is violence ever the answer?

Is violence always the answer?

Does pacifism go too far?

I'm not a pacifist and I will fight but violence is not a valid answer and the fact that some people think it is is absolutely frightening.

Quote from Zed

There have been a few accounts of fighting on SPP recently and split opinion over them, so:

Is violence ever the answer?

Is violence always the answer?

Does pacifism go too far?

I believe that violence is never the answer. No, let me restate. Violence can make things happen, but that's not the way to go about it.

The ends do not justify the means, you must take into account both to decide if an action was right to do.

I think that violence is only ever justified if it is in self-defence or defending others from violence.

If pacifism doesn't work. Then violence.

You say the ends do not justify the means, but surely this is not an absolute thing. Do you complain about children getting injections? It causes them severe pain and they do not know what is going on; surely the means here are brutal? But they are justified by the end - the child will not die of an illness.

Severe pain?

Thats not brutality, the kids know its coming, the parents know its coming, and all parties are agreed on the injection

A fight is more of a sudden thing that just happens and is in no way related to your metaphor

Quote from Zed

You say the ends do not justify the means, but surely this is not an absolute thing. Do you complain about children getting injections? It causes them severe pain and they do not know what is going on; surely the means here are brutal? But they are justified by the end - the child will not die of an illness.

Like I said, it's a mixture of both. So the ends really do justify the means but they must justify one another.

To kill someone for their money is not justified, the means way outweigh the ends.

It is never black an white.

Quote from Dragon⁰⁷⁷

It is never black an white.

Exactly, but I think there are basic moral rules that should apply to all cases of violence, stated above.

My personal view?

Never start the fight, always end it.

Quote from Flesh

Thats not brutality, the kids know its coming, the parents know its coming, and all parties are agreed on the injection

A fight is more of a sudden thing that just happens and is in no way related to your metaphor

When it's a baby being injected it has no idea what is happening and what the benefits are. As far as it is concerned it is being stabbed. Essentially it is, but there are benefits at the end.

If I were to extend this analogy, imagine assassinating a dictator like Saddam Hussein. In the short term it is murder and will shock the nation but in the long term it may save hundreds of lives. (I know full well that assassinating a dictator has myriad consequences and often it is not a good idea at all but I wanted to show how the metaphore could be brought onto violence. I'm sure there are some situations where the logic does apply properly.)

Quote from Zed

When it's a baby being injected it has no idea what is happening and what the benefits are. As far as it is concerned it is being stabbed. Essentially it is, but there are benefits at the end.

If I were to extend this analogy, imagine assassinating a dictator like Saddam Hussein. In the short term it is murder and will shock the nation but in the long term it may save hundreds of lives. (I know full well that assassinating a dictator has myriad consequences and often it is not a good idea at all but I wanted to show how the metaphore could be brought onto violence. I'm sure there are some situations where the logic does apply properly.)

Like I said, this would count as defending other people.

A sort of pre-emptive self deffence? That could escalate badly.

Quote from Zed

A sort of pre-emptive self deffence? That could escalate badly.

Wait, this is before or after he's killed people?