The running theme at the moment in the Debate Section seems to be "Happiness". Here's a strand from that.

My question to you is this... Do nice guys finish last?

It seems that the nicest of people in this world are those least fortunate. The malicious and devious people always get their way and get to the top and nice guys just end up on their knees, scraping and scrimping their way through life.

Sure, some nice guys get lucky and make it big, but in reality most have a hard time. The bullies get their way and get further in life. Why is this? Is there any point in being a nice person, it might afterall get you nowhere...

Call me a cynic but I have seen this happen to countless nice guys, we never seem to get lucky in life or in love. Never the things that really matter.

A religious person might say that it will pay off, eternal euphoria is your reward. Although a Christian myself, I can't live through life on that hope.

What do you think? Would malice and corruption get me further in life?

You still have to consider that if it wasn't for those nice guys getting with all the shit over them, your life would be a piece of crap.

So I guess everyone has to be a bit selfish and wish that everything bad happens to the other guy.
It has been like that for years.
Good thing those Catholics help people, being the only downside their devotion on Christianizing the shit out of every person they help.

Definitely. The Kaiser Cheifs said so; ergo it is true.

Corruption is the way to go. Bribery will get you everywhere. Stabbing people in the back is the quickest and most efficient way to get where you want to be. In any negotiation one side is going to get more screwed over than the other and a nice guy is reluctant to do the screwing, as such he will be screwed.

"It's not because women like jerks. Women prefer polite over rude, and attentive over distracted. The problem is the way nice guys present these positive characteristics. In order to appear friendly and romantic, these 'nice guys' think they have to turn off their sexuality. They hide their desires in order not to offend, presenting an androgynous, asexual persona. The first impression they give is one of emasculation, weakness, and lack of desire. At best, they confuse the woman as to whether they even find her attractive. That's what jerks offer women that nice guys don't: they're not afraid to be sexual."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nice_guy

I agree with that, actually. However, being corrupt and such will get you further in life; it's just that the consequences are higher if caught, and there are ethical issues that you have to deal with.

Well here's the thing, the nice guys are nice guys for a reason, they want to be nice to people. Real nice guys care more about others than themselves. Although that is quite rare, the people who are nice are happy that they did something nice, and don't care as much as to what they wind up doing. Sure it's important, but not as important as helping another in need. You have to see both sides before you flip the coin.

In our book, we don't finish last, but help other's be first.

To be honest, I think it has more to do with working extremely, extremely hard than whether you are nice or not. From what I gather, most successful business persons rarely have much of a life outside work.

Quote from Ustartin

The running theme at the moment in the Debate Section seems to be "Happiness". Here's a strand from that.

My question to you is this... Do nice guys finish last?

It seems that the nicest of people in this world are those least fortunate. The malicious and devious people always get their way and get to the top and nice guys just end up on their knees, scraping and scrimping their way through life.

Sure, some nice guys get lucky and make it big, but in reality most have a hard time. The bullies get their way and get further in life. Why is this? Is there any point in being a nice person, it might afterall get you nowhere...

Call me a cynic but I have seen this happen to countless nice guys, we never seem to get lucky in life or in love. Never the things that really matter.

A religious person might say that it will pay off, eternal euphoria is your reward. Although a Christian myself, I can't live through life on that hope.

What do you think? Would malice and corruption get me further in life?

You got this completely wrong, because your theory only applies to 8th. graders.

It's not how nice you are that will get you somewhere, but how well you can withstand pressure, not let shit get in your way, and do whatever the hell you want to do with your life. You can be a nice person but not necessarily a pussy. Good people are nice because they appreciate things and believe certain people deserve respect, and they keep a positive outlook in life, not letting assholes get in their way, and become successful.

To answer your question, imagine you're going to die the next day and there is no heaven.

I wholehaertedly disagree, Spooned. Firstly being nice and being a pussy are more or less synonymous. Secondly, give me a good example of someone successful who is nice.

Quote from Zed

I wholehaertedly disagree, Spooned. Firstly being nice and being a pussy are more or less synonymous. Secondly, give me a good example of someone successful who is nice.

I reckon you need to be older to understand this. The impression you have with the word nice is some pansy whos scared of everything and kiss peoples' asses to not get hurt. It's really hard to explain but you'll witness a lot of people you would appreciate eventually, and once you've begun to appreciate life a lot more, things will be different. A good person is someone who's been through shit like everyone else but they've got the balls to not make a big deal out of it.

Although people like ghandi and dalai lama went in the shits, they had the balls to do what they did, helped a lot of people, and in that way they were a successful contribution to society.

I think we're arguing over two different definitions of both nice and successful. You could theoretically argue that nice people are successful at being nice, but that says nothing. The Dalai Lama is not successful - he has no country and his people are opressed. Ghandi raped kittens when you weren't looking.

By my understanding a successful person is one who acheives his goals, so I suppose if a nice person were to set really low goals he could be successful. The more challenging goals, however, like wealth and power, are inattainable without backstabbing and screwing over the people you deal with.

In my view a nice person is someone who doesn't piss anyone off - by definition excluding him from backstabbing and screwing. Thus I hold the premises of successful and nice mutually exclusive.

And I'm not some eleven year old kid either.

I agree that backstabbing and whatnot have gotten many people very far in terms of wealth. But I disagree that wealth and power is unattainable without ****ing people over. You just need to be clever, play your cards right, but not necessarily **** people over.

My view of a nice (or good) person is someone who respects humankind and is appreciative of furthering our society for good. They're not selfish into believing everything is about them. Many good people have become respected because they're not easily oppressed by others, and are able to make up their own mind and nothing stops them in doing whatever they dream of doing.

People who actively work with organised crime or whatever may be rich and in your definition "successful", but you'd be surprised how little they are respected by society.

Seriously though you gotta tell me what your definition of a nice person is. If your definition is someone who is a pussy, then this whole argument is invalid.

Quote from Omega

"It's not because women like jerks. Women prefer polite over rude, and attentive over distracted. The problem is the way nice guys present these positive characteristics. In order to appear friendly and romantic, these 'nice guys' think they have to turn off their sexuality. They hide their desires in order not to offend, presenting an androgynous, asexual persona. The first impression they give is one of emasculation, weakness, and lack of desire. At best, they confuse the woman as to whether they even find her attractive. That's what jerks offer women that nice guys don't: they're not afraid to be sexual."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nice_guy

I agree with that, actually. However, being corrupt and such will get you further in life; it's just that the consequences are higher if caught, and there are ethical issues that you have to deal with.

Are you saying that because I'm nice to people I can't be open with my sexuality? Wtf you talking bout foo.

There is a difference to nice guys who are nice to everyone for no reason and those who are nice to people initially and if they deserve/don't not deserve it later on.

The first kind finishes last, the second kind finishes near the top.

@Spooned: my definition of a nice guy is someone who doesn't make other people angry and does whatever he can to make them feel good.

Quote from Zed

Give me a good example of someone successful who is nice.

Give me a good example of successful person who keeps all his money to himself, and acts like a bitch in front of all the press and their friends, assuming they even have friends.

In the real world, ****ing and screwing someone over, will just get you ****ed and screwed over just as much. Maybe not then, but at some point, it'll catch up to you.

I'm completely agreeing with Spooned over this one. Where is it in common sense that states that selfish and cruel people are more successful. This is like it's only in 8th grade.

Quote from Zed

@Spooned: my definition of a nice guy is someone who doesn't make other people angry and does whatever he can to make them feel good.

I see what you're doing. You're trying to explain that all nice people are just pussies, and that they'd turn over everything to help a person out. A nice person doesn't always help someone, but instead just doesn't **** them over when they get the chance. They're people that don't do unnecessary shit when they have the chance.